Planet-Angle contacts

[Parto]

I had assumed that, in synastry, the horoscopic Angles were used, like they are in transits. Then I read something suggesting they aren't. Is that right? Though close squares should still work, I'd assume.

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm not sure what contrast you're trying to draw, i.e., in what way are you seeing them not used as in transits?

One exception, of course, is that co-aspects have a much larger orb than 1°. Also, the transit model is only one way of giving an example of the meaning (analogizing), in the same sense that (say) having someone's Mars aspect your Mercury is something like undergoing a Mars transit to your Mercury when you're around them - but not exactly the same, of course.

Is that what you mean?

[Parto]

Found this, which is either what I had read or conveys the same thing. (Emphasis added.)

It seems that with an original chart, whether natus, return chart, or ingress, angularity is mundane. My current view is that this also applies in synastry. However, such things as transits to the angles later behave ecliptically.

So what I meant is, does angularity in synastry have to be taken mundanely in any way?

[Jim Eshelman]

So what I meant is, does angularity in synastry have to be taken mundanely in any way?

Ah. Great question.

I don't know. I could argue it both ways. A year or so back some examples made me think that yes, absolutely - treat it like a lunar return and precess each person's chart to the other's birth date. But it's hard to pin that down absolutely.

I'm affected in this by something sentimental: My wife's local Ascendant is 27°28' Aquarius, 0°04' from ecliptical conjunction with my Moon. This certainly has ecliptical relevance in that we get transits to her local Ascendant and my Moon at the same time (such as this year's long Neptune transit). But I admit that's being sentimental and, since my Moon rises at 20°02' Aquarius at this location, maybe it's really only very widely conjunct her local Ascendant.

I've definitely seen cases that only made sense if these were treated mundanely (as I said above: more like a lunar return than simple transits).

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm flipping through some of my most important relationship charts. Let's just stop and see what I can find. The first thing I notice btw is that not that many of them have angular contacts of the kind where a couple of degrees this way or that would make a difference.

But let's take two very clear examples: My Venus conjoined my first wife's Ascendant and conjoins my current (second) wife's Descendant. Their angles are ecliptically very closely opposite each other. What's the ecliptical vs. mundane pattern?

My Venus is 1°53' Scorpio.

Janee's Ascendant is 4°06' Scorpio - a 2°13' ecliptical conjunction. Marion's Ascendant is 4°53' Taurus - a 3°00' opposition.

For Janee's birthplace, my Venus rises at 5°17' Scorpio, which makes the orb only 1°09', a degree closer and nearly partile (though both are close). For Marion's birthplace, my Venus sets at 21°56' Libra, a long way from her Descendant, which gives a very strong argument for ecliptical being better.

So, if you ask me today, I'll say they're ecliptical. But the truth is that I can't say that I really know.

PS - And, of course, my favorite - though it could just be personal bias, but it's worth mentioning. Marion's local Asc for where we live is 27°28' Aquarius. My Moon is 27°24' Aquarius, a 0°04' conjunction (which could even be exact to the minute, if her birth time is even 16 seconds off the round minute). In contrast, at this latitude my Moon rises at 20°02' Aquarius, which is more than 7° away. (I think it is likely closer in PV longitude.) It's meaningful enough that it's foreground at all, and maybe the interpretation doesn't change much if it's closer, but that 0°04' orb definitely gets my attention.

[Danica]

My experience says that ecliptical contacts do work. And when an under 1* eclipto conj with Angle is present in synastry , it does show in relationship itself as a strong factor, of the prominence as all other within 1* orb contacts between the two charts.

I haven’t investigated the mundane contacts, to have a formulated conclusion on it.

[Danica]

Am theorizing that the degrees themselves in the zodiac where the MC-IC and AC-DC are, these ‘points’-on-the-ecliptic (with practically accounting for 60’ of arc on each side from the exact position, it’s not a point but a 2-degree wide zone; yet, it is focalized at the Exact Position in the zodiac, which we take as ‘point’, as Ebertin’s school did.) are themselves valid as Factors in the chart.
But the ‘behavior’ (how they relate to the planets) of these is different than of the factors which are actual bodies: they don’t form aspects with planets the way planets among themselves do.
Yet, being Points on the ecliptic, they participate in the geometrical structure of the whole. Therefore the MidPoints including the eclipto-angle-positions do work.

[Parto]

Even with wider orbs, up to about 5º, they seem to work fine-to-great to me.

[Jim Eshelman]

Even with wider orbs, up to about 5º, they seem to work fine-to-great to me.

I was going to say that one thing that makes them hard to assess is that orbs easily have to be considered out to perhaps 10°. (My one example above - My Venus on Marion's natal Dsc - exceeded that by several more degrees, which is why I didn't take it as a hit.)

[Jim Eshelman]

My Venus is 1°53' Scorpio.

Janee's Ascendant is 4°06' - a 2°13' ecliptical conjunction. Marion's Ascendant is 4°53' Taurus - a 3°00' opposition.

BTW, since these are so matched and yet 2-3° off my Venus, here are things my nativity does not have within a degree or so of 4°-5° Hub:

• Any conjunction or square midpoints.
• Vertex, Part of Fortune, the fictional Transpluto, any of the primary asteroids
• Any known real trans-Plutonian planet for which I have an ephemeris
• Any planetary nodes

I do have (from the fictional Trans-Neptune Planets of Uranian astrology) Zeus at 4°44' Leo and Zeus is attributed by them both to fiery enthusiasm and semen.

I also have some of the more obscure asteroids: Aesculapia 4°35' Scorpio or, with a wider orb, Nemesis 5°26' Taurus and Terpiscore 5°20' Scorpio.

I'm not inclined to get too excited about any of these.