It's the economy...

[Jim Eshelman]

Oct 07, 2008

So, what's up with the economy?

It isn't at all obvious to me what's going on astrologically regarding the economy.

I emphasize the sentence thus because, for a change, it's entirely obvious what's going on in the sub-stellar world. I just don't see the astrological pattern.

I see the broad pattern. Saturn's exit from Cancer and ingress into Leo was useful in predicting, years in advance, the exact point of the housing bubble's bursting and the shift to a time when gold's value would soar (something that commonly comes with an otherwise suffering economy: gold's price increases in contrast to the value of the dollar, etc.). But why now? (I mean, what are the astrological reasons for it being right now.)

I'm not going to be happy with any answer that is limited to a particular nation or region. Yes, an argument can be made that the United States was pivotal in the world situation, though it also has become an international phenomenon. Therefore, national horoscopes and even localized ingresses aren't going to please me other than for identifying specific pivotal moments.

So, let's start with the larger trends...

OUTER PLANET CONSTELLATIONS
In brief... there's nothing new here.

We're far too far along in Pluto's passage through Sagittarius for this to be a defining bit of timing - although Pluto in Sagittarius with Saturn in Leo have (as predicted before Pluto entered Sag) shown erosion of imperialistic political leaders and prior acceleration of international hegemony. Saturn in Leo, in particular, has been part of the longer cycle. Neptune in Capricorn has given us over a dozen years where the word "security," and fears about security, have become increasingly prevalent themes in many areas of our lives.

In fact, if I were to attribute the current crisis to any outer planet sign passage, it would be the last ditch "bringing it all home" of Neptune in Capricorn. The patterns have been building for a long time, and we're, proportionately, in the last few minutes of the movie. - But I'd still like better than that.

Next year we begin (first taste, before retrogradation) several new sign trends. But they aren't here yet. We have what we have. And neither Uranus in Aquarius nor Jupiter in its home sign of Sagittarius gives us anything useful. In fact, either is counter-indicative IMHO. (Would someone like to research market trends on Jupiter in Sagittarius? I'm betting they've usually been times of high public confidence, including especially trust in the prevailing political and economic establishment.)

OUTER PLANET ASPECTS
As far as I can see, the indications here, if anything, have been the opposite of what has resulted.

The only recent indication - and one that was present exactly when the economic news really started openly and crazily going to hell a few weeks ago - was Jupiter in Sagittarius trine Saturn in Leo. An astrologer would have been quite justified predicting an increase in confidence and general pickup in the market during that time. However, we got exactly the opposite.

The stock market, like Midwest weather, is one of the rare places where trines and sextiles are "good" (warming, in both cases) and coppositions, squares, and (usually) conjunctions are "bad." In his landmark Astro-Economics, David Williams demonstrated long-term stock market conformity to three primary outer planet aspect pairs - Jupiter-Saturn, Jupiter-Uranus, and Saturn-Uranus - where highs and lows alternated rhythmically through conjunction (down), sextile (up), square (down), trine (up), opposition (down), etc. Eventually, Williams added other outer planet patterns, though the retrospective fit of these three was quite remarkable by the 1950s. The pattern hasn't held up so solidly in the time since, but still tends to be pretty stable - stable enough, at least, that at the exact climax of a Jupiter-Saturn trine (with Jupiter dignified and Saturn debilited) one wouldn't have expected the bottom to fall out (would one?).

The Saturn-Uranus opposition (exact on Election Day) wasn't yet close enough to be the dominant force - but it is part of the general terrain.

HOW ABOUT HELIO?
There's some serious thought that major planetary cycles should be examined heliocentrically. Possibly (I think likely) this is just a mathematical convenience when examining long-term and recurring patterns, since it removes the retrogradation factor and simplifies the statistical landscape. It may be only a statistical landscape, or it may be tied into other layers of how cycles work overall. In any case, the Saturn-Uranus opposition hasn't already come and gone heliocentrically. In fact, it's not as close as it is geocentrically - still about 8 degrees applying as of today.

The one helio factor that caught my eye is that Jupiter has just crept into Capricorn - it's at 0 Cap 13 today. But, moving about 5' of arc per day, it just slipped in there over the weekend. This isn't our culprit, either, and I'm not inclined to take it as being important.

HOW ABOUT FASTER PLANETS AS A TRIGGER?
The serious disintegration began with the triple conjunction of Mercury, Venus, and Mars, primarily in Virgo. That's a lot of energy and does bring mental, emotional, and physical action into play. It has to be a factor because of the timing, and certainly shows collateral commotion... but it entirely escapes me how the symbolism of these planets or the sign in which they aggregated, describes the economic events. If someone else sees this, please let me know! (Measure their convergence from essentially Monday, September 8.)

SIDEREAL SOLUNAR INGRESSES
I have already stated my prejudice that I'm sceptical about localization of this event to a particular country, so, with ingresses, I'm mostly interested in finding universal factors that are independent of geography. Nonetheless, I'll look at them primarily for New York City as the financial center where the greatest commotion occurred (which is nearly the same as for Washington, DC for the political implications). I'm especially interested in particular aspects and close (but not necessarily partile) lunar aspects in the solar ingresses.

The current Capsolar (January 15, 2008) has a partile Moon sesquisquare Saturn. From this, we could conclude something depressive for the world for the year - sad, aggravating security issues, forcing survival instincts higher. In brief, a down year more than an up year. Could we have predicted a financial cave-in from this? Not alone. But at least it points in the right direction. Joining it was a partile Jupiter-Neptune semisquare which certainly indicates inflationary forces.

The good news for astrologers is that we looked exactly where we thought we should find something, and what we found is representative of the events. The bad news is that it isn't very exciting, and especially doesn't depict the catastrophic or extreme (I'm looking for a little Uranus and Pluto here). For NY we do have Pluio closer to the angle than anything, though it isn't partile. - Nonetheless, I'm willing to accept this as pointing in the right direction and perhaps the background chart.

The current Cansolar (July 16, 2008) has, for NY, one tell-tale mark of economic crisis: Neptune rising. It's less than 2 degrees from the horizon. Also, though I increasingly think of all solar ingresses lasting for an entire year, the Cansolar does mark the exact quarter in which the crisis occurred. - The one partile aspect is Moon opposite Mercury, which doesn't impress me at all (that is, I don't think it gives us any information that would have allowed us to predict the events - it's more indeicative of the heightened level of political dialogue during this particular election season).

The current Arisolar (April 14, 2008) has a lot of partile aspects, including a partile Moon-Pluto sesquisquare. This would show some measure of world shakeup, alienation, polarization, more ideological separation (which is hardly a surprise at this point in history - the question is, in which areas would it be manifesting?). There is also an exact Mars-Saturn semisquare, so harshness, survival mentality, alienation, conflict are expected - I certainly would have seen this more in military terms than economic, especially given the trend of the time. (It's worth mentioning that Mars was precisely on the IC in NYC for the Arisolar, so it would be expected as a locale for all of this. Anyone know what the Manhattan crime rate has been like for the last six months?) Besides that, we had the comparatively minor Saturn trine Pluto and Jupiter sextile Uranus. (A not-quite-partile Jupiter-Mercury square would have been angular in key places and, where prominent, would have seemed a positive, encouraging economic indicator.)

Finally, the current Libsolar (October 18, 2007) had only a partile Mercury-Saturn sextile. Nothing of serious note. In New York, though, the angles came into play: Pluto was exactly on the Eastpoint. As with a Solar Return, such placements will recur from year to year, moving a quarter turn around the chart. Thus, the upcoming Libsolar (October 17, 2008) has Pluto on the Midheaven in NY. The better news is that there are no stand-out geographic-independent aspects in it.

CONCLUSION: These actually showed far better than I expected! The Capsolar very broadly set a pattern that was symbolically precise but unexciting. The Cansolar added plenty of excitement. The other two shaded in a touch of this and that, a dash of salt and sprinkle of pepper.

U.S.A. NATIONAL CHART
As mentioned above, I'm sceptical of this showing the financial meltdown in any distinctive fashion.

But it shouldn't surprise anyone who has been watching this year's Presidential campaigns that the progressed horoscope for the U.S.A. - using the "shortly past noon" (12:14:42 PM LMT) birthtime - marks this as A YEAR OF CHANGE. Progressed Eastpoint has been conjoining progressed Uranus all year. This joins the semi-permanent (and now incredibly close! - 10') conjunction of progressed Sun and Midheaven.

We are also entering a time when passions will rule more strongly, with progressed Venus opposite progressed Mars just recently moved within partile orb. This is worrisome in another sense: In mundane astrology, hard Venus-Mars aspects are common for war. This isn't diminished by the almost exact sesquisquare of progressed Sun and Mars right now. (But it's not news that we have a chief executive who likes war.) The Venus-Mars opposition occurs exactly across the U.S. Eastpoint axis. (We also have the long-term progressed Saturn trine natal Venus - restriction on peace - still quite close.)

The only other main progressed is progressed Mercury conjunct natal Moon - and I haven't a clue what that might mean right now.

So far as transits to the U.S. natal - t. Neptune sesquisquare r. Venus doesn't seem to say anything about the economic picture. T. Saturn sesquisquare r. Pluto does show some of the hardship levels and general impact. We might look for some substantial and final-seeming relief around October 28 when t. Jupiter opposes r. Sun.

But... as expected... the U.S. chart doesn't per se show the world crisis - thougj it continues to do a mighty fine job showing the U.S. domestic tone.

What the heck, let's look at the current U.S.A. SSR also - though I'm not used to solunars of national charts showing so well. There ya go: t. Pluto partile conjunct the Midheaven, a Moon-Uranus opposition 8' wide and near the horizon, and Mercury implicated by opposition to the Pluto and square to the Ascendant. Perhaps even more important is t. Mercury square r. Neptune partile and in the foreground - a classic indication of "bank panic" or something similar. Dang, that chart looks pretty good! (Er, bad!)

[Jim Eshelman]

Well, Jim, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's been beating my head on the keyboard looking for astro indicators of this mess. Have to agree with you that the ingresses only give us a "taste" rather than a meal.

In my chart wanderings I also looked at the last Jupiter-Saturn conjunction: May 28, 2000 @ 15:59:18 UT (time probably from a CCRS transit run). My thoughts were Jupiter-Saturn is a financial marker, so it should show something. Conjunction was at 27 Ari 59. Midheaven for NYC 29 Ari 56, for DC 26 Ari 58. Uranus Rx 26 Cap 05.

I normally wouldn't look at transits to a conjunction chart, but so obviously Neptune has recently been squaring the conj. and conjoining chart Uranus. (It's probably the influence of the current generation of Tropical mundane astrologers -- they'll cite transits to anything, whether the astro symbolism is appropriate or not -- snark, snark.) Anyway, it does add some symbolism that I'd been looking for.

Sidereally yours,
Matthew

[Jim Eshelman]

Fascinating. Thanks. - Remember Fagan's work from the 1930s showing that this sort of thing was the basis of much of Mesopotamian astrology.

[Jim Eshelman]

Here's my two cents worth--or maybe a nickel. Although I worked in a stock trading room in Los Angeles from 1981 to 1992, it did not seem likely to me that what I was seeing could be accurately predicted with the astrology I was familiar with. (Thank you SA/UR.) However, here is an interview with the preeminent astro-technician, Arch Crawford, who apparently uses Bradley's methods: http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/sto ... -43908.cfm His physics explanations don't seem feasible, but he has gotten good results. He uses other technical methods besides astrology, however. There are also very sophisticated programs that do technical analysis that use some astrology. Here is Alphee Lavoi's entry: http://www.alphee.com/mt_studies/Overview/ This is not a promo, just a reminder that this field has been gone over very thoroughly for many years by some quite bright minds, not including mine. Perhaps the current market meltdown is related to the meltdown of the artic ice cap. Time will tell.
Regards,
Wayne

[Jim Eshelman]

It’s apparent that a BIG dose of CONTRACTION is affecting the markets/banks/economy. If there is a valid chart somewhere—SATURN has to be prominent—Angular.

[Jim Eshelman]

It’s apparent that a BIG dose of CONTRACTION is affecting the markets/banks/economy. If there is a valid chart somewhere—SATURN has to be prominent—Angular.

And, of course, what Siderealists call "the Master Chart of the Year" - the Capsolar - has an exact Moon-Saturn hard aspect.

It just isn't all that unusual an aspect compared to the scope of this problem. The enormity of the impact is why I'm requiring Pluto also as a driving force.

Here's the tricky thing: I don't know that astrology can show the economic trends per se. That is, the trends are subtle and rely on many factors of interplay plus - and this is important to astrologers! - I'm certain that anytime anyone anywhere finds any way to accurately predict market trends (mathematical, astrological, meteorological, or any other way), internal forces of the market are going to compensate against it. Without anyone necessarily knowing that there were effective predictions being applied, the market is going to correct itself against that possibility the same way a casino would shut down a bizarrely lucky gambler.

But that's not all we're dealing with here. Current market trends have been broadly predictable for quite some time. What is right in astrology's domain, though, is the mass public reaction occurring right now.

That becomes a type of economic predictor all by itself, of course, because mass confidence levels and other mass mind patterns are among the largest factors in market fluctuations.

Afterthoughts... Since writing the above, I've given more thought to the "last ditch effort by Neptune in Capricorn." Given compatible, opportunistic other patterns (such as Saturn leaving Cancer for Leo, for example, plus the guaranteed change of administration in the White House), I think a long-term planet trend is going to do exactly that sort of thing. It isn't enough IMHO, but it's one of the most interesting factors going: We're seeing the end of 14 years of Neptune in Capricorn, 14 years of security (= insecurity) being perhaps the single strongest driving force in American culture.

The solar ingresses have been cooperative with such a trend - just not very impressive in their own right. Even in hindsight, can we see the path by which we should have predicted this? I'm not sure it's that clear. I'm not sure that a forward-looking path or procedure is made visible to us.

Admittedly, I've gotten lazy on some points. I knew decades ago that this sort of Neptune-on-the-angle mundane structure could mean "economic panic." However, economic panic doesn't happen that often, and things have sucked so badly economically for most of the decade, and the Saturn sign patterns were showing the emphasis of "what will suck next," so I stopped remembering to push that interpretation button. I know that Pluto on an angle of mundane charts means, "The thing you'd have said was too far out in left field to open your mouth and predict," but lazsiness intervened on that, too.

[Jim Eshelman]

A few other things I meant to mention... These come in the category of "when your model falls short, at least put other possibilities on the table." It doesn't mean that the other possibilities are legitimate answers, just that they shouldn't be kept hidden in a drawer.

OTHER PLANETS
Several legitimate, actual astronomical bodies have been discovered the last few years and are in the same astronomical class as bodies we regard as important astrological planets. Astrologers have nibbled at these a little, but it would be a mighty tall tale to suggest we really have any clue what (if anything) they mean. Nonetheless, for the record...

During this entire economic crisis, Sedna has been at 26° Aries, meaning that there has been a Neptune-Sedna square. Additionally, Eris has been at 27° Pisces, so there has been a Neptune-Sedna sextile. Finally, Quaoar has been at 22° Scorpio, which was squared by the Sun on September 8 and by Saturn this week.

RECENT ECLIPSES
The August 1 total solar eclipse occurred at sunrise in Washington, DC (and along the East Coast in general). Simple interpretation is that we'd expect them to get the snot knocked out of them in some fashion. (If this were a major geological fault line, we'd expect a very big earthquake - the East Coast has gotten the psychological equivalent.)

NEW & FULL MOON CHARTS
I've pretty much always regarded these as legitimate mundane predictors, but they didn't fare quite so exquisitely this time.

The New Moon before the cave-in was a partial solar eclipse on August 30. The eclipse did conjoin Saturn. I suppose Tropicalists would be much more pleased with it, since the eclipse and Saturn fell in the VIIIth house for New York / Washington, and (gotta admit it) this is the house where investment-related crises would hit by mundane tradition. I also note that Pluto is 7° above, and Jupiter 7° below, the horizon in mundo - their midpoint being a bigger deal than either placement alone. Mercury, which keeps sticking its head into this and might refer to commerce more than media, is exactly on the Zenith for NYC, but conjunct Venus closer than Mars.

And the September 29 New Moon fell in the IInd house (dammit), and is minutes from sesqui-square Neptune. Besides that (which would mean drawing attention especially to economic issues), it doesn't have much to say. PS - The Midpoint structures of this September 29 New Moon are terribly interesting, since they show a lot of socio-economic political turmoil. On a 45° sort, we have:

25°49' - Me/Ur
26°02' - Ma/Sa
26°03' - Ju/Pl
26°41' - NEW MOON
26°55' - Neptune

Note that on a 90° sort, the Ma/Sa and Ju/Pl midpoints (only a minute separate) stay with the New Moon.

[Jim Eshelman]

Since this financial crisis has become a global phenomenon, I would recommend looking at helio positions. One of the cycles that seemed to correlate well back when I was looking at this was helio Jupiter through it's aphelion/perihelion and consumer vs capital spending, if I remember correctly. Look at outer planets to nodes and apsides with inner planets as triggers. I don't have software to do this, but it would be interesting to know which packages allow this kind of "esoteric" analysis.
Regards,
Wayne

[Jim Eshelman]

Yep, I agree—with the mass meltdown on Wall Street-- Pluto should be featured. Is Pluto near the galactic center in the Sidereal Zodiac—Mundo or Ecliptic??

Yes indeed-- Moon/Saturn is valid symbolism for this meltdown. If I calculated properly—the 09 CapSolar features an approaching Moon/Saturn Conjunction opposing Uranus—Sun and Jupiter offers some relief in the 7th. Need to run out (NY & DC) progressed Moon (Quotidians) to partile Conjunct Saturn and note any day(s) of Paran formations for possible precise timing of another big dose of depressed headlines. With the CapSolar being a very important mundane chart the 09 CapSolar could be telling us to expect another year more of a deteriorating economic condition. If 09 CapSolar is correct –would welcome your comments.

We also, need to continue monitor W’s nasty SQ1 hits in early Jan 09 for possible crisis extensions of this meltdown or another chapter to unfold?

[Jim Eshelman]

One of the cycles that seemed to correlate well back when I was looking at this was helio Jupiter through it's aphelion/perihelion and consumer vs capital spending, if I remember correctly. Look at outer planets to nodes and apsides with inner planets as triggers. I don't have software to do this, but it would be interesting to know which packages allow this kind of "esoteric" analysis.

Great call. - But, which way did it tip things?

Jupiter's South Node (helio) is 15°41' Sagittarius. While it's pretty close to Jupiter's current geocentric position, Jupiter's helio longitude is now in early Capricorn. Still, within the last year (about six months ago), it crossed the celestial equator.

Jupiter's last aphelion was in 2005, meaning that it's perihelion will be about 2011. (The longitude is aboiut 20 Virgo-Pisces.)

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim,

Belatedly, happy birthday! Maybe I'll find time this weekend to look at your SSR and tell you what's in store for you

I have a couple of remarks on your economic musings.

I'm not going to be happy with any answer that is limited to a particular nation or region. Yes, an argument can be made that the United States was pivotal in the world situation, though it also has become an international phenomenon. Therefore, national horoscopes and even localized ingresses aren't going to please me other than for identifying specific pivotal moments.

Yet you seem to have found that the most telling indicators were in charts for the US (NY and DC) after all. I'm no more an economist than an astrologer, but in my desultory reading of news and op-ed pieces, I see economists speaking of a US crisis that is spreading to the world, rather than of a global crisis. For example, Robin Hahnel, an economist at American University, is quoted as saying, "... it's not necessary for the U.S. financial crisis to become a world financial crisis ...." (He goes on to say that to avoid a full-blown global depression the US government has to stop governing foolishly and start governing wisely. Hope springs eternal.) So maybe you should have been looking at local charts after all to find indicators of the present situation, and look at upcoming charts to see a prognosis for the world at large.

Another thought while I'm on a roll. This reminds me of another thread about mass disasters. IIRC, you opined that one should find relevant indicators in the charts of every person who went down on the Titanic or every victim of Hitler's holocaust (contrary to a common view that mass disasters supersede personal charts). By the same token, instead of looking for a "world horoscope" with signs of economic woe, perhaps one ought to look at the charts of individual countries and localities to see how each will be affected.

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, but that's a whole other issue - how valid are the birthdates of a country? Look at all the controversy over the USA's chart.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333

[Jim Eshelman]

“I’m a free –market person,” President George W. Bush said at summit’s end, “until you’re told that if you don’t take decisive measures then it’s conceivable that our country could go into a depression greater than the Great Depression.”

Headline News from the Washington Post, Nov. 16th 2008, (ECONOMY IN CRISIS), by Glenn Kessler and Anthony Faiola.

The article went on to say the details of the G-20 Summit meeting will be worked out next April under Obama’s administration.

[Jim Eshelman]

“The present economic crisis is of historical proportion. Its effects are global and expected to get worst before it gets better.” Barack Obama, News Conference, 11/24/08.
“On October 16, Barack Obama joked, a bit haltingly,

“I was actually born on Krypton and sent here by my father Jor-El to save the Planet Earth.” He was addressing the long-running and politically crucial Alfred E. Smith Memorial Foundation Dinner in New York City, where candidates in white tie put aside electioneering, and perform with dry, big-city wit. Little more than 48 hours later, full-color guerrilla art posters appeared on Melrose, Vermont, and other trendsetting Los Angeles avenues showing Obama as Superman, pumped like the Man of Steel, and decked in patriotic red, white, and blue...” by Mick Farren, 11/6-13/08 article (titled: ‘TRUTH, JUSTICE and the new American way’) in the LACITYBEAT.

Even though I am very suspicious of any politician(s), the above two quotes informs me much about Obama’s psychological make-up. 1: I think he sincerely expects the economy to get worse in the future. 2: He realizes, and is willing to take on the Superman task that confronts him as President. I hope he will be able to withstand the Kryptonite forces of the upcoming 09 mundane planetary cycles. I think it’s going to take years for the economy to work its way back to a booming situation.

As far as the next year, the 09 Mundane CapSolar seems to offer confirmation to Obama’s above statement that our economy will ‘get worse before it gets better’---with the important 09 CapSolar feature of an approaching Moon/Saturn Conjunction.

Bill Meridian states from Charles Jayne Mundane teachings: “The Moon traditionally rules the people in a mundane chart.” “Key words and concepts—People, popular opinion, the masses, the prevailing mood.” Couple the 09 CapSolar’s conjunction of the Moon with Saturn and the ACTUAL recent economic events---then this 09 CapSolar mundane chart could speak volumes pertaining to the ‘prevailing mood’ of ‘the people’ in 09. I think the late Spring & Summer months of the 3 Jupiter/Neptune in 09 may set up a false sense the economic crisis is over but the harsh mundane cycles in the Autumn of 09 will put the country back in an economic contraction. I have little experience working with mundane symbolism of the CapSolar. If anyone will offer their delineation as a whole for the 09 CapSolar, please post.
Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

If you can find a copy of the December 1 Barron's it has a good common sense note by Jack Ablin of Harris Bank on page 49 in the Market Watch section that reaffirms what some of us have said here about a likely economic future. Basically we should continue to see some price deflation--as we already have in housing and commodities--before inflation picks up again in 2010 and beyond. The Fed's balance sheet has expanded by 1.3 TRILLION dollars in the last year, and it may get bigger before all the various bail-out/stimulus packages are finished. All that liquidity has to go somewhere eventually, and that means pressure put back on prices and wages. Of course so much of our money goes into foreign bank accounts because of trade imbalances that the impact gets spread around the globe.

Astrologically, I can't say that I've really got any other insights. I'm busy with my history research at the moment. Ask me in five years what it was all about.

Regards,
Wayne

[Jim Eshelman]

Jan 14, 2009

Hi all,
If you watched The Ascent of Money documentary on PBS last night, you got what is likely the best explanation of our financial mess that you will see on television, in my opinion. You can also watch it online here: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ascentofmoney/ Did you catch the price of a nice suburban house in the 1950's for $4800? If you want more financial details with very good charts, this webpage will start you on your way to becoming a serious wonk: http://www.kitco.com/ind/dorsch/dec032008.html Back in the 1970's I used to subscribe to publications from the St Louis Fed when I first became interested in economics and monetary policy. I attribute my interest and willingness to wade through stacks of charts and piles of data to my ME 90 UR in the power houses 9 and 12, but I should also mention that my ascendant is at the midpoint of a wide SU/SA conjunction, and they are in close parallel as well. I recently began noting the power of stationary planets, and I would not be surprised if libertarian leaning economists have a strong Uranus. I have Uranus stationary natally, as did Abe Lincoln and the chart for the first meeting of the Continental Congress in September 1774. George Washington had Neptune stationary, which fits his life perfectly. Trained as a surveyor and a prominent Freemason, he selected the site for the nation's new capitol, staked out the plan of the White House on the ground, laid the cornerstone of the Capitol Building, and was of course the "Man on horseback" during the revolution, a role commemorated by a statue in the city named after him. I've made a mental note: Pay attention to stationary planets. They are important!
Regards,
Wayne

My US History website, where you can look up data on the Fed, various Treasury Secretaries, Lincoln, Washington, and the Continental Congress: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/US_history_events/

[Jim Eshelman]

Wayne wrote:
I've made a mental note: Pay attention to stationary planets. They are important!

I fully agree with this Wayne. The worst period I ever experienced in my life was with a Saturn station on my Ascendant. Stations of planets particularly with the outer planets are damn important.

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

Neptune - engineered collapse of certain markets that do not reflect the reality of things?
Pluto - destruction of false premises (Tower). Ruler dethroned?
IN L.V.X.,
chrys333

[Jim Eshelman]

Chrys333 wrote:
Neptune - engineered collapse of certain markets that do not reflect the reality of things?
Pluto - destruction of false premises (Tower). Ruler dethroned?

Chrys, There will be 3 Jupiter—Neptune conjunctions in 2009 with the most potent one in July 09. I certainly agree with your above statement about Neptune not reflecting ‘the reality of things’. My take on the economic situation for 2009 is after the second exact Saturn—Uranus opposition on Feb. 5th, mass psychology will start to shift from Saturn-Uranus to Jupiter-Neptune and this will indeed cause a false (Neptune) sense of reality. Obama’s natal chart features a very potent midpoint of Sun/Pluto = Uranus and the Jupiter-Neptune conjunction in July is partile opposed his Natal Uranus. My take on this potent planetary picture on Obama’s natal chart is it could mean that this is symbolizing that his Stimulus package will work on a temporary basics and the Jupiter-Neptune will fill him with a false sense of reality because the Jupiter-Neptune will be causing the Stock market to go up, creating a false sense of reality. It will also cause a false sense of reality for John Q public. If this is the case, then the Stock market will make an important bottom sometime in Feb. with the second Saturn-Uranus opposition—then the Stock market will go into a Jupiter-Neptune rise. According to some mundane astrologers, Jupiter-Neptune is associated with inflation and many of the so called economic experts are saying Obama’s so called Stimulus package will create massive inflation.

What I find most interesting is Obama’s 09 SSR. This SSR features, what I consider, a heavy dose of Mars-Saturn symbolism which tells me his so called Stimulus package is doomed to fail! The Stimulus package will become stage to fit the bill for the symbolism of Jupiter-Neptune. It is obvious Obama’s main priority is the economy; and, in most cases astrological symbolism manifest with one’s priorities. Of course this Mars-Saturn symbolism on Obama’s 09 SSR could manifest in another area besides the economy but when you look at the harsh outer planet mundane cycles in the autumn of 09, including potent Pluto symbolism—this fits the timing sequence to burst the ‘false’ bubble created by the Jupiter-Neptune conjunctions-- after Obama institutes his Stimulus package. In other words Obama psychology in 09 will be engulfed with the false Jupiter-Neptune ‘sense of reality’ and then come crashing down with his 09 SSR symbolism of Mars-Saturn—a very sobering effect! Will post later pertaining to certain details on my take with Obama’s 09 SSR.

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

I just finish watching PBS ‘Ascent of Money’. Thanks Wayne for posting the link. I was particularly interested in the segment on ChinnAmerica pertaining to the financial connection between America (debtor) and China (lender).

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29562961

[Jim Eshelman]

Hi Steve,
I just now read what you wrote on Jan 16 or so. Were you right on, or what?
Look forward to hearing what else you can see and predict.
My thanks.
Chris H.

[Jim Eshelman]

Chris wrote:
I just now read what you wrote on Jan 16 or so. Were you right on, or what?
Look forward to hearing what else you can see and predict.

No astrologer can accurately predict what will happen with planetary symbolism in the mundane sphere or with a native’s chart—(s)he can only speculate as to the final outcome. So, take what I see/predict with a grain of salt.

I do believe the 5 Saturn-Uranus oppositions that began in the autumn of 2008 through 2010 is the primary symbolic timing cause that is drastically affecting our economy.

Ken Bowser has an excellent article on Saturn-Uranus symbolism at: http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com ... ticles.asp

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

http://www.billherbst.com/News108.pdf

http://www.billherbst.com/News109.pdf

[Jim Eshelman]

The following is some highlighted points by David Bonner's recent speech. I have been following Bonner's pension fund results for years. As far as I am concerned he is a genius when it comes to analysing the economic futures for our country.

David Bronner, CEO of the Alabama Retirement Systems, the 43rd largest investment fund in America, spoke at Rotary Club here yesterday. He is one of the most respected fund controllers in the United States today by his peers. Bronner had the following to say:
1) Next month, July, California hits the wall financially, that will send a ripple effect across the US economy, AND over the next two years one state after the other will fall to its knees financially as the federal government stimulus package ends by 2011. It has helped various states at different levels comparative to their economic condition. He says the stimulus package is what's been keeping the states alive for now...except for California which was in such terrible shape the stimulus package wasn't enough to really help them. "They go first" He said Alabama would hit the wall in February of 2011, late in the game as Alabama is in better shape than other states. Bronner says Alabama might dodge the bullet if the economy revives enough by then. But, he doesn't really think things will improve enough by then to avoid a crisis..."It will be the largest economic crisis in the history of the State of Alabama" Bronner says Alabama will experience such significant shortfalls by 2011 that taxes will have to be raised substantially to avoid collapse...probably on property. And that practically all states will face a similar fate.
2) Within 120 to 150 days from now the commercial real estate market nationally begins to collapse as stores, malls, and shopping strips and industrial plant have enough closures (store and plant) and loss of rental revenue to make them unable to pay their mortgages. They will start going into foreclosure unable to pay their mortgages in a significant way at that time creating a second wave of economic disaster starting three to four months from now.
3) Unless oil stays above $70 a barrel Russian and Mexican economics will begin to unravel as countries ("socio-economic collapse) economies require that much from oil to have an adequate revenue stream to feed their people and economies. AND, the only other big revenue stream for Mexico is illegal drugs sold in the US...so their economy will intensify their focus on selling drugs in America as a result in order to survive if oil doesn't stay above $70...he said $90 would be better for them.
4) The US economy (according to Bronner) is today like a patient in the emergency room in the process of having a heart attack. He said people tend to think of it as being in the hospital for cancer or chronic disease. Without the huge Bush stimulus, and then the huge Obama stimulus, the economy would have already flat lined...(i.e. we'd be experiencing a Great Depression style economic collapse heading toward 25% unemployment or so as the tumble would have continued and intensified at an increasing rate, with the stock market hitting around 2,000) Bronner said the depth of the crisis was greater than ANYONE realized and agrees today, after learning the extent of the crisis, that the federal government simply had to start "shoveling" money at it to prevent a true and complete collapse of our economy. He said he, at first, was mad at this shoveling of money until he learned the truth about the amount of money necessary to prevent a total collapse which he believes would have happened.
5) Inflation will not arrive for 3 to 5 years as the economy is in a deflationary stage due to the economic plummet...and will not experience inflation until people start "buying things" again, and that's going to take while! He also believes 3 to 5 years is probably the term until true economic recovery establishes in the US and world economy.
6) China must start selling their products to people in their own country and paying their workers enough to buy them. This would increase their products prices, reducing their exports (and "besides they will lose interest in having more US dollars anyway") and enabling other countries (US) to compete with them.
7) The greatest threat to the US economy is one of around 9 world events that could heap misery on top of misfortune at exactly the wrong time. A nuclear incident with N Korea, a plague, Israel attacking Iran (oil shock), or such could still throw the US economy into a Great Depression style situation. He said the greatest risk of this is anytime from now until the world economy gets somewhat back on its feet...in 3 to 5 years.
I thought you might find what Bronner had to say interesting. You may or may not believe it. But, at least it's from a credible and intelligent source.

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

Saturn is approaching its 3rd exact opposition to Uranus in Mid Sept. 09. It is within a 4 degree orb now (serious strength). The summer’s Conjunction of Jupiter Neptune is separating by 4 degrees. There is no way of knowing for sure but I feel like the Jupiter Neptune influence on a collective market level is responsible for the summer’s bull market rally. We will have another Jupiter Neptune exact Conjunction near the end of 2009. If we see the Gold Market in a rip snorting bull market with new highs well above 1000 $ an ounce near the end of 09—Jan 2010—I am speculating this will be near the end of the 30 year cycle bull move in Gold. See Jim’s post on the transit of Saturn through Sidereal Leo pertaining to Saturn & High Prices: http://www.solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=99

When the bottom fell out of World Stock averages in the Autumn & Winter months of 08 & 09, the main outer planet transit was the first two exact oppositions of Saturn-Uranus. It will be interesting to see on a collective level if this third exact opposition of Saturn-Uranus will throw World Stock averages back into a bearish mode. Pluto is now involved with this 3rd Saturn-Uranus opposition with a wide T-Square. Personally, I don’t see how it could get more dramatic than last autumn when the economy & markets took a nose dive. But, when it comes to dramatics I have a deep respect for Pluto’s symbolism.

Please don’t take my views for personally speculating on the markets. I am only speculating as to the possibilities of the mundane cycles of the outer planets as to the possibilities of their effects on World Stock averages and our fragile domestic economy. Our Country has produced the greatest economic machine in the entire History of our known world. Without massive intervention on a Federal level I feel the entire banking system would have failed like it did in the 1930’s. But there is still pernicious outer planet aspects that is approaching which I look upon as an aspect of Nature that always rules over the affairs of mere human actions. Humans on a collective scale can only react to these forces of Nature.

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks, Steve.

Y'know what "bar stool" is, right? It's what you step in while walking through the woods where "bars" [bears] live. And I've been catching the scent of "bar stool" on the wind for a while and think it might hit next month.

There is no way of knowing for sure but I feel like the Jupiter Neptune influence on a collective market level is responsible for the summer’s bull market rally.

I agree completely. The usual mundane astrology keyword for Jupiter-Neptune is "inflation." We haven't had runaway inflation literally, but "over valuation, unreasonable valuation," etc., is the same idea. At a lighter level, it's been a confidence boost, and this has helped the market. On the other hand, there is usually no worse cynic than a disillusioned idealist... so Saturn-Uranus coming behind Jupiter-Neptune is worrisome.

We've had a few economic markers of "misplaced valuation." For example, a lot was made of the fact that the consumer spending climbed for two months, and Bernanke actually has suggested that the recession has bottomed out. But the consumer spending bump was mostly the auto industry boost from "cash for clunkers," and spending in other sectors has been continuing downward during the same time.

We will have another Jupiter Neptune exact Conjunction near the end of 2009. If we see the Gold Market in a rip snorting bull market with new highs well above 1000 $ an ounce near the end of 09—Jan 2010—I am speculating this will be near the end of the 30 year cycle bull move in Gold. See Jim’s post on the transit of Saturn through Sidereal Leo pertaining to Saturn & High Prices: http://www.solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=99

Yes. Though I'm not an economic advisor at all, and to trust me on how to invest your money is to show just what a fool you can be... FWIW I've been advising people to get out of gold by September 11. (It will be quite interesting, also, to see if oil prices start dropping.)

In economic terms, I'm concerned that we're in the place Mexico found itself in the early to mid '90s. It's a little different because it's ultimately hard to say what the intrinsic value of a dollar is when the U.S. dollar is the buoy to which so much else is tethered. In most ways, it still continues to define its own value. But we seem to be at a place where the dollar is over-valued - unreasonably, inflatedly valued. That would mean that, when the clouds part and we take a more starkly realistic look at things (Saturn-Uranus), we'll uncover a deeper recession than most people are wanting to talk about.

But, when it comes to dramatics I have a deep respect for Pluto’s symbolism.

Smart man!

BTW, did you notice that the September 18 New Moon chart for Washington has Pluto (ecliptically) in partile conjunction with the Ascendant? Mundanely its a few more degrees off, but it's still eye-catching. It's in near-partile square to Mercury, and widely square the New Moon itself. And at the latitude of DC, there is also a Pluto paran involving the opposition:

Ura Asc 267°41'
Sat Dsc 269°20'
Plu MC 270°42'

The opposition is also strongly emphasized by the New Moon itself by paran (much closer than in longitude):

Mon MC 174°37'
Ura IC 175°21'
Sat MC 176°18'
Sun MC 176°19'
(and variants on this RA conjunction-opposition)

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim wrote:
Y'know what "bar stool" is, right? It's what you step in while walking through the woods where "bars" [bears] live. And I've been catching the scent of "bar stool" on the wind for a while and think it might hit next month.

I ditto this!

Jim wrote:
On the other hand, there is usually no worse cynic than a disillusioned idealist... so Saturn-Uranus coming behind Jupiter-Neptune is worrisome.

Once I knowingly involved myself with some market speculation under a strong Jupiter-
Neptune cycle and made very fast money in a bull market—but the market reversed itself and fell 5 x faster than it did going up in price—lost money on the speculative venture---so goes the nature of speculating with a personal Jupiter-Neptune cycle.

Jim wrote:
We've had a few economic markers of "misplaced valuation." For example, a lot was made of the fact that the consumer spending climbed for two months, and Bernanke actually has suggested that the recession has bottomed out. But the consumer spending bump was mostly the auto industry boost from "cash for clunkers," and spending in other sectors has been continuing downward during the same time.

Exactly!!! The Stock Market has had a 3000 point bull move—yet it is damn hard to find an economic reason with substance to justify this valuation. It seems like a perfect Jupiter-Neptune foot-print.

Jim wrote:
That would mean that, when the clouds part and we take a more starkly realistic look at things (Saturn-Uranus), we'll uncover a deeper recession than most people are wanting to talk about.

I totally agree Jim! And with Uranus involved the markets could take another ‘sudden unexpected’ nose dive.

Jim wrote:
BTW, did you notice that the September 18 New Moon chart for Washington has Pluto (ecliptically) in partile conjunction with the Ascendant? Mundanely its a few more degrees off, but it's still eye-catching. It's in near-partile square to Mercury, and widely square the New Moon itself. And at the latitude of DC, there is also a Pluto paran involving the opposition…The opposition is also strongly emphasized by the New Moon itself by paran (much closer than in longitude):

I did not notice this. Damn interesting!

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, your striking New Moon observation (including Paran phases for t. Saturn-Uranus-Pluto set to DC) for Sept. 18th falling on the t. Saturn-Uranus opposition prompted me to look at the July 4th USA Birth Chart(s). Here are some further observations:

1: This (3rd) Saturn-Uranus opposition falls (partile phase) on USA Natal Neptune with t. Saturn conjunct USA Natal Neptune. USA Natal Neptune is square USA Natal Mars meaning the t. Saturn-Uranus opposition forms a T-Square with USA Natal Mars. Sept. 18 New Moon Squares USA Natal Mars.

2: Focusing on t. Mars alone, we note shortly after the Sept.18th New Moon cycle, t. Mars will partile conjunct USA Natal Sun. USA Natal Sun is Square USA Natal Saturn—then also within the Sept. 18th New Moon Cycle—t. Mars will partile Square USA Natal Saturn. Using your partiality with your 12:14:42 LMT birth time for the July 4th USA Chart—the t. Mars aspects to the USA Chart are Angular in the immediate foreground!

The ‘scent’ becomes stronger with the above observations!

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

1: This (3rd) Saturn-Uranus opposition falls (partile phase) on USA Natal Neptune with t. Saturn conjunct USA Natal Neptune. USA Natal Neptune is square USA Natal Mars meaning the t. Saturn-Uranus opposition forms a T-Square with USA Natal Mars. Sept. 18 New Moon Squares USA Natal Mars.

One common keyword for Neptune in mundane astrology is "panic."

Or, to state it differently: Transits of Saturn to natal Neptune in personal horoscopes usually mean, "Ideals and dreams are grounded. If sound, they are made solid, secure, real; otherwise, frustration and disillusionment. Security and certainty seem important. Personal demons and troubled mental states may emerge. You have more options that you think!" How must this be understood when thinking of (1) the mass reaction of individuals rather than a single individual, and (2) the affairs of the nation and its government per se? And how does it sound in the present economic and political context?

Also, transits of Uranus to natal mars in personal horoscopes usually mean, "Restless, rebellious, abrupt, risk-taking. Industrious, enterprising. Awakens passions and sense of sexual adventure. Obstinate, forces issues. Need for elbow room." How must this be understood in the above two situations and in the present context?

BTW, anyone expecting successful health care reform under this? <g>

And, as you point out, transiting Mars, in the days immediately following, will conjoin natal Sun and square natal Ascendant; then square natal Saturn; then conjoin natal Midheaven. I believe the word "obstinate" will be used much more frequently during those days.

One advantage during this time: Several lunar ingresses in the next few months have the Sun exactly angular. This likely will show the President taking a more direct, hands-on leadership role, in contrast to the fairly backseat roll he's been taking on many issues all year.

I'm ambivalent about the value of SLRs for national charts, but do notice that the September 16 USA SLR not only has transiting Mars partile conjunct the Descendant, but conjunct natal Sun and Jupiter. In a personal SLR this would, at the least, be an enthusiastic spendthrift period when, in any case, one found less in one's pocket at the end than in the beginning.

[Jim Eshelman]

Excellent points Jim!

Jim asked:
How must this be understood when thinking of (1) the mass reaction of individuals rather than a single individual, and (2) the affairs of the nation and its government per se? And how does it sound in the present economic and political context?

Indeed! These are the pertinent questions posed to the astrologer. I find mundane delineations very difficult. With the New Moon of Sept.18 we see five t. planetary aspecting USA Natal Neptune, Moon, Sun, Mercury Saturn & Uranus. Allowing Pluto’s wide orb would be six planetary factors aspecting USA Natal Neptune. It appears the heavens have decided to gang up on USA’S Natal Neptune. I have not studied Charles Jayne’s work in detail, but I know he did a-lot of mundane research.

Bill Meridian’s work & study of Charles Jayne’s work states:
Neptune is the Planet of the Masses. This planet rules mass movements and the mass mind. Neptune has a liberal character and symbolizes social idealism and collectivism. Jayne cited it as being the single most prominent factor in the dissolution of countries and organizations. This usually occurred through a loosening of the social laws of the land, and frequently was accompanied by monetary inflation. Utopian socialism through the growth of international organizations is a Neptunian development. Labor organizations and cooperatives, somewhat akin to socialism also fell under Neptune’s rule. Neptune rules majorities. After the war, Jayne interpreted Neptune as being the planet of large-scale finance. Key words: Welfare state, utopia, socialism, liberal groups.

I guess with Jayne’s mundane work the astrologer could allow Jayne’s above Neptune delineations to pertain to the growing debates in the US pertaining to national healthcare reforms, but I believe Jayne was referring to transiting Neptune—not to Neptune in a national birth chart. Again, I have not studied Jayne’s work in detail.

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

On Wed. Sept. 23 rd, the Stock Market made an outside daily reversal with the Sun partile zero degree Libra in the TZ. The Market closed Friday performing a weekly reversal, the first weekly reversal from new highs since the Sun date bottom of Mar. 6th 2009. Because of the natural law top on the Sun Date of Sept. 23rd 2009, this offers high probability the market has at least made an intermediate top.

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

On Wed. Sept. 23 rd, the Stock Market made an outside daily reversal with the Sun partile zero degree Libra in the TZ.

BTW there's no need to reference zodiacs in this. The Sun was partile conjunct the equinoctial point, i.e., the intersection of the ecliptic and the celestial equator.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim wrote:
BTW there's no need to reference zodiacs in this. The Sun was partile conjunct the equinoctial point, i.e., the intersection of the ecliptic and the celestial equator.

I agree Jim. Your words state the correct astronomy.

I think it's important because we give the wrong impression when we speak of "two zodiacs." The very use of the language gives support to the idea that there might actually be a valid other zodiac. There's just the zodiac! And it happens to be sidereal.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim wrote:
The Sun was partile conjunct the equinoctial point, i.e., the intersection of the ecliptic and the celestial equator.

Jim, I also noted when Iran went public about there other nuclear site (supposedly secret), the Sun was partile conjunct the equinoctial point. This caused a flurry of activity with Obama and his security council and on the same partile Sun/Equinoctial Day, prompted Obama to issue a warning to the Iranians—to come clean or face the possibility of military intervention by the international community. As I pointed out the Stock Market seemed to take note of this with a Top (so far) on this equinoctial day. Will be interesting to see if this equinoctial incident turns into an ugly future event.

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

As I previously mentioned in some thread somewhere on this forum, the Autumnal Equinox chart has a partile Sun-Pluto square which, for Washington, DC has Pluto rising and the Sun on the Zenith.

Relocated to Tehran, there isn't anything partile on the angles, though Neptune is in near-partile conjunction with the Midheaven.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jan 22, 2010

I think the stock market may have made an important mid-Jan Top. There was an eclipse Jan15th and the CapSolar ingress was Jan 14th. The CapSolar ingress for DC has some potent Saturn-Pluto symbolism—will be interesting to see how this plays out in light of the recent political events. As for a fundamental reason—Obama initiated an attack policy on the big US Banks timed with the eclipse and CapSolar. Just an observation.

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

Oct 23, 2013

I have grown old with an outdated mind when it comes to understanding certain things about today’s economics, but I was told today a fact (have not checked the actual math) about how much a Trillion Dollars was in relation to spending a Trillion Dollars.

It would take 31,644 years spending a Dollar per second to spend a Trillion Dollars. Our Government is near 17 Trillion in debt, and when I think about this the more I realize there is no way our Government can possibly pay this debt. Am I missing something about the much publicized financial debt our Government has incurred, or does this actual debt matter anymore? The Stock Market keeps making new all time highs as the Government goes deeper in debt. Any links to respected economic articles pertaining to this out of control government spending/debt would be appreciated.

[Jim Eshelman]

I think you are assessing the numbers correctly.

Here are some points that come to mind in thinking about your post (aside from the other points about debt being a problem):

1. Most of that money was never spent by the country in any usual sense. That is, most of it is compounded interest on the debt. This will continue to build, because we can't even make the interest payments.

2. The nations of the world have reciprocal debt. I don't know how this figures into the numbers quoted. That is, not only do we owe a lot of countries money, but a lot of countries owe us money. I don't know if that's being taken into consideration in these numbers, i.e., whether they are true "bottom line" accounting numbers.

3. Countries having reciprocal debt have a strong incentive not to go to war with each other. They are business associates who depend on each other. (No country in the world has more than about 200 outside customers. They don't exist.) Debt, therefore, has been used for at least the last quarter century as a peace investment.

4. No cuts in the budget matter on the big issues. They're all political posturing. "Smaller government" doesn't matter when you could shut down the entire U.S. government for a year and not discernibly reduce our interest payments on the debt! Unless the debt as such, and interest payments on debt in particular, is addressed, there is nothing that will ever reduce the debt.

5. Debt is a complicated matter. China owns a lot of our debt. In exchange, we have a lot of China's money. (See above for implications.)

6. Tying other countries into owning U.S. dollars is a way to keep the U.S. dollar basic to their self-interested survival. This increases to a near-certainty that the U.S. dollar will remain central to the world economy. This, in turn, keeps the U.S. dollar much more stable and reliable for us, as if it were the surface of a shifting ocean on which other currencies afloat.

7. Debt has become a commodity. You buy it, sell it. "Buy debt low, sell it high, make a profit." It's treated today like pork bellies. The problem is, when debt is a commodity, then profit motive often is served by short sales, i.e., there are owners who have a financial investment in the commodity called "debt" doing poorly. (In today's economy, it's an easy call that debt will suffer value over certain stretches of time, so it's a smart gamble to "bet it will lose." One then needs to root for the other team to win the gamble.)

8. Debt has its own market. That market responds to essentially the same rules as other commodity markets.