USA chart (rectified by Alexander Marr)

[ODdOnLifeItself]

SteveS requested that I open up a thread relating to Alexander Marr's rectification of the USA horoscope, so that we could openly discuss it in a thread of its own...

http://www.james-alexander.de/USA_FaganBradley.PNG

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Using the Q2 progressed SR for Washington DC for 9/11/2001 gives...

Asc square Mars 0° 34'
Asc opposite Neptune 0° 52'
Uranus conjunct MC 0° 8'
MC opposite Mars 2° 59'

The Q2 Asc contacting Mars-Neptune seems correct for a "surprise attack"... (noting as well a "false flag attack" interpretational possibility, due to Neptune's "nothing being really as it seems" quality)

Uranus exactly on the MC seems right for an event that suddenly, and completely changed the course of the country, demonstrated the coming massive changes relating to individual liberty/freedom, and importantly suddenly liberated the government (Uranus-MC!!!!) to act on its Middle East decimation PLAN. (ie. a further corroboration of the Marr rectification)

http://www.james-alexander.de/USA_Q2_9_11_2001.PNG

[SteveS]

Oddon, did Marr publish any available work pertaining to USA events with this chart? Or, can you post some other events related to this chart? Thanks.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Yes, there are references in various books of his. (They'll most likely all be Tropical, but you get the added advantage of Topocentric Primary Directions)

Here are a few that I just made... (All charts use Fagan-Bradley zodiac)

Solar Return (Washington DC) of the start of the Civil War, using Marr's USA Chart.
http://www.james-alexander.de/CivilWarBegins_SR.png

Q2 progression of above SR.
http://www.james-alexander.de/CivilWarBegins_Q2.png

Q2 bi-wheel with progressed SR in inner ring to preserve houses.
http://www.james-alexander.de/CivilWarB ... iWheel.png

JFK Assassination Q2 bi-wheel with Marr USA surrounding.
http://www.james-alexander.de/JFKAssass ... iWheel.png

[SteveS]

Thanks oddon, give me some time to study, I have a few busy days ahead of me. And, welcome to the forum.

[SteveS]

Hi Oddon,
I never could have begun to think a major crises would have occurred by looking at Marr’s USA radical chart and its 1860 Civil War SSR because nothing was featured on the angles of Marr’s 1860 SSR. However, I do find some very interesting observations for an 1860 SSR for all other USA charts for July 4th 1776.
1: SSR Mars was partile conjunct USA Natal Pluto, which means that all timed USA charts would feature the same. If this Mars-Pluto was featured on an angle of a SSR, then this would classify as an “outstanding incident” Mars-Pluto event. However, Fagan noted in his work ONLY on the day of any return chart when an inner planet was partile conjunct a radical planet an event of the nature of this combo would manifest during the time period of the return chart. Mars-Pluto combos would indeed be par-excellent symbolism for a stunning (Pluto) Civil War (Mars). This is most interesting to me and without you bringing this thread to my attention I would never have been able to make this observation.
2: BUT, I have to give credit to Marr’s 1860 SSR—it featured a partile Q2 Moon partile 180 Q2 Saturn on the exact day the Civil War broke out---4/12/1861. This is impressive!
3: And, when I look at the mundoscope of Marr’s 1860 SSR, it features a partile 90 of Moon-Pluto. This is also very impressive! It also features a partile 180 of Venus-Jupiter conjunct 180 Mars. Somewhat interesting.
I will investigate Marr's chart further. Until I see another timed USA chart with better symbolism for the year this Civil War began, I have to give Marr’s USA timed chart credit with worthy considerations. Thanks Oddon for posting.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

You're very welcome. Glad you're finding it interesting and are looking more deeply into it...

This chart was surely rectified with Topocentric Primary Directions. If you have a dated-event for which you'd like those Primaries, just let me know. (it's extremely rare to find TPDs in astrology software... Polaris (rectification software by Isaac Starkman) and Placidus (by Rumen Kolev))

Thanks for sharing your observations!

[Jim Eshelman]

I've forgotten what annual rate Marr used for primaries. Can you remind me?

I have enormous respect for Marr, based on his work through many years in Spica, even though we didn't get along at all when we met in person near the end of his life. Despite the considerable excellent work he did, I was never impressed with his rectifications (which I know is almost sacrilegious in some quarters, even more so since Starkman has become the de facto rectifier in residence of Astro.com). Despite, this, I still use his Israel chart, mostly because we have a wide range of the time and nobody else (to my knowledge) has tried to narrow it.

[SteveS]

Oddon, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Marr's rectification of the USA Chart was done using Polaris but I have no experience with Marr's methodology of TPD's. But, after looking at Marr's 1860 SSR, it made me realize the importance of that SSR Mars partile conjunct USA Natal Mars. I have always been open for looking at all timed USA charts, but it just seems that Mars-Pluto needs to be on a 1860 SSR angle. But, Fagan did say that when an inner transiting planet falls partile a radical planet--it did nor need to be angular to produce important events. But again, from a Sidereal Astrology standpoint I think Marr's 1860 SSR can argue well with any USA timed chart. Rectification is a very tricky business, but I do remember Fagan saying his favorite rectification tool was using important events calculating exact SSR Q2 Moon aspects. For sure, the greatest inhibiting (Saturn) event to ever occur in the entire history of the USA--was damn sure the Civil War, and the start of the Civil War began with a near exact progressed SSR Moon 180 progressed SSR Saturn.

[Jim Eshelman]

...it made me realize the importance of that SSR Mars partile conjunct USA Natal Mars. I have always been open for looking at all timed USA charts, but it just seems that Mars-Pluto needs to be on a 1860 SSR angle.

For the Hazelrigg-George time I've longed used, the 1860 SSR has:

2°40' Can - r Mercury
2°57' Cap - s MC
5°13' Cap - t Mars
5°56' Cap - r Pluto

Rectification is a very tricky business, but I do remember Fagan saying his favorite rectification tool was using important events calculating exact SSR Q2 Moon aspects. For sure, the greatest inhibiting (Saturn) event to ever occur in the entire history of the USA--was damn sure the Civil War, and the start of the Civil War began with a near exact progressed SSR Moon 180 progressed SSR Saturn.

What date are you using for the start of the war? Ft. Sumter? Something else?

[SteveS]

Fort Sumter Jim, 4:30 AM Ap 12 1861.

[Jim Eshelman]

Fort Sumter Jim, 4:30 AM Ap 12 1861.

That's traditional, so it makes sense.

Despite the history books, I've never thought it all that important: It wasn't important at the time, nothing really happened there. The first bloodshed was a week later in the Baltimore Riot.

I usually measure the start of the war from the moment South Carolina seceded, December 20, 1860, 1:15 PM LMT, Columbia, SC. The breach was specifically triggered by the confirmation of Lincoln's election. Besides the excellent SSR I just mentioned above, the December 17 SLR has Mars 0°10' from Nadir (with natal Mars also foreground).

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Despite the history books, I've never thought it all that important: It wasn't important at the time, nothing really happened there. The first bloodshed was a week later in the Baltimore Riot.

Jim, no way I know the details of USA history like you, you have done far more research than me. But, doesn't history tell us the first shots (cannon balls) were at Fort Sumter? It seems to me this would have been an important beginning. Do we know what event Marr used for the beginning of the Civil War?

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, no way I know the details of USA history like you, you have done far more research than me. But, doesn't history tell us the first shots (cannon balls) were at Fort Sumter? It seems to me this would have been an important beginning. Do we know what event Marr used for the beginning of the Civil War?

Yes, that's what the books say - except, with more detail, they also say it was an almost meaningless exchange, close to a spitting match, with no bloodshed and no damage - more of posturing than fighting.

And the ingresses center on the South Carolina secession, which had already seemed to me the point at which the "we are leaving" war began.

There are, of course, many dates that could be taken as the start. Despite the cannon fire, it's not like a starter pistol. It's a chain of events that led to more events. Where does one draw the line? The Confederacy was calling up troops as early as February and again in May. The Union started matching them in May (I think it was).

But one thing we do know is that it began (one date or another) in the 12 months following the 1860 U.S. SSR, so that was a great chart to start with. The "shortly past noon" Hazelrigg-George chart puts transiting Mars, atop natal Pluto and Mercury, along the meridian.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "Oddon, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Marr's rectification of the USA Chart was done using Polaris"

No, of course not...HOWEVER, the method that Polaris uses comes directly from Alexander Marr. ie. we have to keep the horse before the carriage

Isaac Starkman, who wrote Polaris, also authored books with Alexander Marr and it is to Alexander Marr that Polaris is dedicated.

In other words, the USA chart was rectified by Marr using Topocentric Primary Directions, though Polaris was not involved (since it wasn't yet written).

My offer was...to use Polaris to list (for you) any events, where you are curious of the Topocentric Primary Directions. The offer stands...

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: Key for Topocentric Primary Directions...

The pole and its ascensional difference is calculated differently than other primary directions.

The key is the mean solar arc in right ascension, using the Naibod key.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "I was never impressed with his rectifications"

Yes, many have been found to be in error. Of course searching for fitting primary directions "by hand" is a daunting process. Polaris analyzes every second and creates a list of the (birth)times with the best match of primary directions, with specific weighting of aspects (internally) relative to the event type. From this list, and using PSSR and Secondaries to check for accuracy produces impressive results more efficiently. There are (in the main) 40 different event types and for each of these a table of weightings for "expected aspects" for that particular class of events. (additionally one can associate an event with a particular house, in case the type of event doesn't fit one of the given categories)

One caveat... for some (for instance Ken Haining) the rectification is OBVIOUS using just 2 events in Polaris, though his is an exception to what one normally finds. For some, with a wide range of potential birthtimes, 12 events might not be enough to be definitive. (in these cases, we normally use PSSR aspects to narrow the search range and then the correct ( ) time is much higher in the list given from Polaris.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

I rectified my chart, and Isaac checked it for accuracy, and it has withstood the test of time. We've also found my Epoch chart and it performs similarly...

Since the rectification, the following events all corroborate the original rectification, with fitting TPDs (to just scant minutes of arc) as well as corroboration from the other reliable systems. (out of sample tests)

*Death of step-Father
*Death of ex-Wife
*Death of Brother

Reliable systems:
http://www.james-alexander.de/Systems.png

[Jim Eshelman]

I should add to this thread that much work by Marr, including with Topocentric primary directions, plus much work by the creators of the Topocentric house system can be found in Spica, most issues of which are here for free download: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4033

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

But one thing we do know is that it began (one date or another) in the 12 months following the 1860 U.S. SSR, so that was a great chart to start with. The "shortly past noon" Hazelrigg-George chart puts transiting Mars, atop natal Pluto and Mercury, along the meridian.

Jim I have little experience testing the various timed USA charts with events, but I trust/respect your judgement/experience with Sidereal Astrology using Hazelrigg-George chart, even though I know your primary interest in astrology does not involve event orintated things.
Jim wrote:

I should add to this thread that much work by Marr, including with Topocentric primary directions, plus much work by the creators of the Topocentric house system can be found in Spica, most issues of which are here for free download: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4033.

Thanks for noting this Jim. Since I have no experience with the Topocentric system I will study these articles.
Oddon wrote:

My offer was...to use Polaris to list (for you) any events, where you are curious of the Topocentric Primary Directions. The offer stands.

Oddon, for sure, the single most important/dramatic event to occur in my life happened July 8th 1985 at 10:00 AM. I am curious as to the symbolism of TPD’s for this event.
Oddon wrote:

I rectified my chart, and Isaac checked it for accuracy, and it has withstood the test of time. We've also found my Epoch chart and it performs similarly...

Oddon, correct me if I am wrong, I take this to mean you never had a recorded birth time for your birth? Let me study a little this system of TPD’s where I will be in a better position to ask you more possible questions. I can tell you are a person of knowledge with TPD’s. I will say this: I am always very interested in possible accurate forecasts for the future with mundane affairs. If you and your contacts every see anything involving a possible accurate forecast for the future, let me know. I reward people who have been instrumental for me in such accurate forecasted mundane things.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "Oddon, for sure, the single most important/dramatic event to occur in my life happened July 8th 1985 at 10:00 AM. I am curious as to the symbolism of TPD’s for this event."

Actually, I meant relative to the MARR-USA chart.

An explanation... Topocentric Primary Directions gain their strength as a rectification tool, because a very slight change in birthtime, shifts the maturity dates of future aspects extremely forward or backward in time. Therefore, to even begin using TPDs as a forecasting tool, the birthchart has to be meticulously rectified to around +/- 4 seconds of time...

That being said, depending on how open you are and how close you know your birthtime; we could do a rectification here first, and then see what we see, relative to TPDs at events. That would make a fun experiment of sorts, and also would demonstrate how the rectification is done, as well as how tightly the TPDs and everything will be ONCE that chart is exactly rectified.

I got into this many, many years ago, when Isaac was posting his rectification info on Noel Tyl's forum. After working mostly with transits, progressions, and solar arcs; it was mind-blowing the specificity of house references and the tight, tight orbs. I started talking with Isaac...bought Polaris, while learning the methodology, and have been repeatedly impressed. Actually, in some ways, Jim reminds me a bit of Alexander Marr, in that they are both strongly research-oriented, and both have no truck with fictitious systems. ie. it works or it doesn't

As for my birthtime, there was a birth notice in the paper listing 6:18 am, as well as that being written on my birth certificate. After using about 18 events or so, my true birthtime works out to 6:16:44 am, ie. 1 min 16 secs earlier. If we use 6:16:24 am, there is no strong correlation between TPDs and events. The same with 6:17:04. However, using the correct time, everything lines up and there are (even for events that were yet to happen) appropriate aspects to just scant minutes of arc.

In this system, sometimes the aspects that we find statistically are not what we would find, say in the transiting system in terms of planets/points for given events. For instance, for "birth of a brother," I'd espect tight aspects involving the "male symbols" (Sun and Mars) in conjunction with Asc, MC, Node, or the 3rd House cups to just minutes of arc.

For me, from my natal; my Brother was born as Mars squared my 3rd Cusp (0° 6'); while in my conception chart, the Sun contacted the 3rd. (0°4')

For the death of my ex-Wife, we would expect the "female symbols" (Moon and Venus) with the Asc, MC, Node, but especially the 8th House. From my natal, Moon contacts 8th (0° 5'), while in my conception chart, Moon also contacts the 8th (different aspect) (also 0° 5').

For all aspects except the conjunction and opposition, the maximum orb is 0° 6' of arc... with under 0° 11' for the conjunction or opposition.

However, when an event "happens," it's not from some magical aspect generally; it's from an accumulation of aspects saying the same thing! (or describing various aspects of the event and its surrounding circumstances)

For instance, death of step-Dad:

8th square Mercury (0° 0') (informed of death from my Brother, death issues brought to mind)
Moon conjunct Pluto (0° 2') (emotional shock)
Neptune square Asc (0° 6') (mourning and a dissolution of relationship)

Or for instance, meeting my Wife:

Uranus conjunct IC (0° 1') (emotional excitement, change in the family, temporary move)
Venus contacts 5th (0° 1') (romantic relationship, love given to a female)
Node contacts Jupiter (0° 3') (new contact, associating with foreigners)
Node sextile Asc (0° 5') (new important association, meeting someone (potentially female/nurturing; potentially family))

[SteveS]

Thanks Oddon for your last post, it helps me with better, interesting, understanding.
Oddon wrote:

As for my birthtime, there was a birth notice in the paper listing 6:18 am, as well as that being written on my birth certificate. After using about 18 events or so, my true birthtime works out to 6:16:44 am, ie. 1 min 16 secs earlier. If we use 6:16:24 am, there is no strong correlation between TPDs and events. The same with 6:17:04. However, using the correct time, everything lines up and there are (even for events that were yet to happen) appropriate aspects to just scant minutes of arc.

Oddon, I can see why someone with a un- recorded time of birth could find value with Polaris/life events/TPD’s. But could you explain to me WHY an interested astrologer with an AA recorded birthtime would want to seek out a possible more accurate birthtime down to 4 seconds of time, other than to see richer event symbolism with TPD’s?

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Sure... for Topocentric Primary Directions, PSSR aspects, and Age Harmonics, one needs an extremely accurate birthtime. Additionally, anything using harmonics and using diurnal positions, every bit of added accuracy makes the astrology all the more stunning.

I consider the following reliable systems, both direct and converse and routinely use all of these in both modes:

* Topocentric Primary Directions
Secondary Progressions
* PSSRs
Lunar Cyclic Charts
Transits
Solar/Lunar Returns
Solar Return Aspects
Ascensional Transits
* Age Harmonics

The three marked systems require an extremely tightly rectified chart.

It's a bit of a catch-22 in that you need a tightly defined birthtime to use Topocentric Primary Directions, yet Topocentric Primary Directions are the best way to arrive at that tight of a birthtime. Then, as corroboration, we use the Secondary Progressions and PSSR aspects.

When I looked at Age Harmonics, at first, there was nothing stunning really. As soon as I obtained a precise birthtime, everything suddenly CLICKED...

For instance, here is the Age Harmonic for the death of my legal Father (technically, my Grandfather)... Saturn conjunct MC could not be clearer. ie. perfect Age Harmonics are perfect (across all events) even though no Age Harmonics were even referenced in the rectification.

http://www.james-alexander.de/AgeH4DeathOfFather.png

[SteveS]

Oddon wrote:

Sure... for Topocentric Primary Directions, PSSR aspects, and Age Harmonics, one needs an extremely accurate birthtime. Additionally, anything using harmonics and using diurnal positions, every bit of added accuracy makes the astrology all the more stunning.

I have never worked with Age Harmonics, but I can understand where you are coming from Oddon with the stunning symbolism offered.
Oddon wrote:

The three marked systems require an extremely tightly rectified chart.

I understand Oddon. Question: Both Jim and I totally agree a Sidereal Solar Ingress is accurately timed to within 6 seconds of time. Since I have never worked with TPD’s without clear understanding, do you think it possible TPD’s could offer any advantages working with a Sidereal Solar Ingress chart? Probably not since we are only working with a radical chart that lasts for only 1 year.
Oddon wrote:

For instance, here is the Age Harmonic for the death of my legal Father (technically, my Grandfather)... Saturn conjunct MC could not be clearer. ie. perfect Age Harmonics are perfect (across all events) even though no Age Harmonics were even referenced in the rectification.

Even I don’t understand Age Harmonics Oddon, I agree this example is absolutely stunning and how much it must excite you with your work/life Oddon. Thanks for sharing Oddon---most interesting.

[Jim Eshelman]

I spent a fair amount of time testing Age Harmonics when Bruno Huber introduced me to them over dinner about 40 years ago. It was an intriguing concept that I wanted to see work (especially because I enjoyed Bruno and respected how his mind worked so much), but I just couldn't ever get good results.

In those days, I was using a calculator, so I just ran half a dozen biggest events in my life through the system and got... zilch. In some of the charts, worse than zilch, because they were contradictory, but overall little-to-nothing. Even if we discount the accuracy of my natal angles, other aspects should have appeared (and did not). - BTW, my birth certificate time appears to be accurate to within a quarter of a minute, and probably within a few seconds.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "...do you think it possible TPD’s could offer any advantages working with a Sidereal Solar Ingress chart?"

Wow, I hadn't even thought of it. It remains to be seen (as far as I know) if the primary directions to an ingress chart signify anything. The one-year shelf life of the ingress, as well as the (sometimes) plethora of primary directions, might be too subtle to be definitive.

However, since you've put forth a perfectly good premise and I don't really know, a little research is in order. Thanks for the idea and the inspiration.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Thanks, Jim. I also had extremely lackluster results with age harmonics... however, with a rectified chart, if the age harmonics are valid, they should render a readable chart.

I just put in the death of my Grandmother (the single worst day of my life) and the Age Harmonic chart has Neptune at the Ascendant and Mars on the 4th.

When I traveled to Germany to meet my current wife, the age harmonic puts the Moon right on my Ascendant, with Mars right on my Descendant, both squared by Jupiter. Venus is directly opposing the 9th (topocentric) cusp.

For my wedding, which was attended by many people from overseas, at one of our very favorite art galleries, which unfortunately included my Wife breaking her wrist while dancing, the age harmonics put Jupiter and Neptune on the Ascendant, Venus at the 4th, and Saturn at the Descendant.

For the birth of my Son, age harmonics give Node tightly conjunct IC, and Jupiter opposite Ascendant. The AH Sun is opposite Node, AH Venus is conjunct my Moon, and the AH Node-IC conjunction is on my Ascendant.

12 days later, the pleasant planets moved off my angles and a AH Moon opposite Pluto aspect formed, where I had a really bad auto accident. It's worth noting that AH Mars/Uranus = r Sun (0° 0').

[Jim Eshelman]

Are you relocating these or going for birthplace?

I've always assumed, based on the nature of the technique, that the original (birthplace) form of the chart needs to be preserved. Solar Fire defaults to switching age harmonics to event location, so I switched it back for testing.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

I agree...I never relocate Age Harmonic charts. The wheel doesn't appear to roll.

Here's another one that seems quite dramatic...the birth of my daughter, Summer.

http://www.james-alexander.de/JAA_AHSummerBirth.png

[ODdOnLifeItself]

For the death of my ex-Wife,

AH Descendant opposite Uranus (0° 7')
AH Neptune opposite Sun (0° 2')
AH Venus square IC (0° 9')
AH Saturn opposite AH Pluto (0° 20') (across my Asc-Dsc axis)