John McCain - birth certificate time

[Jim Eshelman]

Matthew Quellas has forwarded information about John McCain's birth certificate. His birthtime is 6:25 PM.

PROVENANCE: Ron Gaunt wrote that, "Donald Lamb of The Panama Railroad Company has produced a copy of
McCain's birth certificate." Here is a link to a copy:
http://files.meetup.com/786200/John%20M ... leased.pdf

The data in full, then, is given as:

1936 August 29
6:25pm EST
Colon Hospital, Panama
9N21'56" 79W54'06.

[Jim Eshelman]

Now that we have, for the first time, sure birth times of both main candidates for President, I will make a tour of the main astrological indicators for both Election Day and Inauguration Day.

Inauguration Day is easy! The winner will be in Washington, DC, on the steps of the Capitol Building at noon on January 20, 2009.

Election Day is more of a problem. We know the date: Nov ember 4, 2008. We don't know an exact time for a result, though the closing of the polls on the West Coast at 9 PM PST is a reasonable time. Also, we are normally restricted from using any technique that is geography-based, because we don't know where the candidates will be! - and this calls into question solar and lunar returns, quotidians, etc. (We can use these, we should just rely on them last and least.)

For McCain, my best guess is that, on Election Day, he will vote... and that he's registered in his home state of Arizona... and that it is probably near his home in Phoenix. So that's likely where he'll be on Election Day.

[Jim Eshelman]

For Election Day 2008...

TRANSITS
t. Pluto -135 - r. Mars 45' sep. Standard interpretation: Aggressive, angry, fiery aspects of personality are unleashed. Sexually intense. Must express fierce physical energies. Old resentments purged, but roused first. Achievement quite possible.
t. Uranus - 45 - r. Moon 32' sep. Standard interpretation: Refreshing changes, renewed interest in life. Emotional (sexual) liberation. Lifestyle overhaul. Popularity; maybe a shift in intimate relationships. Inquisitive, curious; new interests.
t. Saturn - 135 - r. Moon 36' sep. Standard interpretation: Practical matters do better than emotional ones. Somber, distant, cautious; separation from nurturing; perhaps wounded pride, loss, feeling misunderstood. Security needs increase. Others seem unsympathetic.
t.Sun - 90 - r. Mars 25' ap. Standard interpretation: Active, energetic, aggressive, competitive, strong-willed, willing to risk. Probably accomplishing. Challenge or conflict likely. Sex drive emphatic. Energy high; but may burn out from not knowing when to quit.
t. Venus - 90 - r. Saturn 3' ap. Standard interpretation: Uncomfortable feelings around love, personal appearance, sensuality. Resistant to affection or closeness. Subtle pleasure in one’s inadequacies or problems; may refuse others’ support. Loss, sadness, feeling blocked.
t. Mercury - 45 - r. Jupiter 15' ap. Standard interpretation: Your ideas work to your benefit. Business draws your attention, tends to go favorably.

SUMMARY: Mixed indications. It isn't surprising to see him caught up in the Saturn-Uranus opposition which marks the tensions of the day. On balance, the Saturn-Moon and Venus-Saturn transits suggest low mood, disappointment, loss, emotionally low. (Against that, there are multiple indications that he and Cindy will be, er, enthusiastically connubial, and one indication that is more representative of a victory speech than a concession speech.)


SECONDARY PROGRESSIONS
p. Venus - 135 - p. Uranus 14' ap. More of a personal than political aspect. Its main characteristic may be rejuvenation, and it may not center on this event specifically.
p. Sun - 90 - p. MC 19'. This is a many years long aspect of no distinctive meaning for this event. It primarily shows this overall stage of his life and career.
p. Sun - 60 - p. Neptune 55' ap. An aspect newly within orb. Likely means loss of physical and psychological energy as he gets into 2009. May not be directly relevant to the election.
p. Mercury - 45 - p. Mars 18' sep. / p. Mercury - 90 - r. Mars 3' sep. He's been arguing all summer!
p. Saturn - 180 r. Neptune and p. Uranus - 120 - r. Sun are so long-term that it isn't likely relevant to the election itself.

Notice that t. Sun conjoins p. Mercury (part of the Mercury-Mars combination) on Election Night. "Your ideas receive special attention" is likely to be the meaning of this. If it's extremely close and McCain is on the bottom, I think this configuration guarantees a recount fight.

SUMMARY: Leans positive, but may not focus precisely enough on the specific event.


SIDEREAL SOLAR RETURN
This isn't a great indication in and of itself for the simple reason that McCain has a job in Washington in January regardless of the outcome of the election. For completeness, though, I'll mention that it's mixed in its indications (and for a year of a great range of events, this isn't unusual). For DC, it has a New Moon rising (Moon precisely on the Ascendant), which is a superb indication for him ... but the Sun is 4° from conjunct Saturn, which isn't so great an indication. (Saturn itself is on the periphery of the foreground range.) Neptune is on the Westpoint.

Worth examining for the election, though, are transits to the SSR. Aside from outer planets conjoining their own SSR places (and the consequent nerve-jangling Mars-to-Neptune transit arising from the Mars-Neptune square occurring that day, and Venus-to-Uranus from similar causes), we see:
t. Jupiter - 135 - s. Moon 15' sep. Sense of well-being. Center of attention. Much emotion; probably joyful, maybe moodiness or tension-release through tears. Responding to quality. Social, celebrant, indulgent.
t. Mars - 45 - s. Mars. We've already seen many ways that this is a competitive, adrenalin-pumping day for McCain! The usual interpretation for this transit would be: Physical, energetic, strenuous. High accomplishment possible, much effort; may overextend own limits. Competition, struggle. Sexually aggressive. Neglectful of manners. (Sounds like the fight is still continuing on Election Day.)

SUMMARY: These transits are victory markers for McCain.


SIDEREAL LUNAR RETURN
McCain has a Lunar Return on Election Day. It's obviously of enormous importance. The problem is, we don't know for sure where he'll be. Based on a reasonable best-estimate that he'll be in Phoenix, the SLR has transiting Sun 5 degrees from the IC and almost partile square the Ascendant (and natal Mars about a degree from that Ascendant). Natal Moon is the exact minute of arc on the Westpoint (using standard Phoenix coordinates). Natal Uranus is 2 degrees from the Midheaven. Transiting Neptune is broadly foreground.

SUMMARY: This SLR shows extreme (presumed positive) mass-attention directed his way amidst continuing competitiveness and some jangled nerves. It leans much more toward victory than not.


QUOTIDIANS
We shouldn't give much importance to the quotidians for Election Day. We're already too far out on a limb with the location issue. But here's the information for Phoenix:
SNQ2. p. Jupiter on Westpoint.
SNQ1. Nothing angular.
SQ. r. Pluto exactly on the MC.
PSSR. r. Venus rising


SUMMARY OF ELECTION DAY CHARTS
Inconclusive but leaning toward the positive for him. If he is in Phoenix on Election Day, the SLR, SNQ, and SQ tip him much more in the direction of victory.

But a stronger message of these charts is that, on Election Day, McCain will still be embroiled in very aggressive competitive actions. Normally campaigning has stopped by then - but these charts really point to Election Day itself as when this particular fighter climbs into the ring. This also raises the possibility of an election so close (with McCain the seeming loser) that will aggrerssively contesting the reported results in one or more locations.

At the end of the day, it just may be that the best indication of the outcome of the election are the multiple indications that McCain is getting laid that night!

For anything more concrete, we will do better to direct our attention to Inauguration Day.

[Jim Eshelman]

For Inauguration Day 2009...

TRANSITS
t. Saturn -180- r. Saturn 17' ap. Standard interpretation: Major time of self-redefinition. Confronting and remolding one's limits, ambitions, and self-directed destiny. Maturing, becoming more whole; reviewing the past, clearing deadwood. Some tension, moodiness. Achievement possible; changes almost certain.
t. Jupiter -0- r. Moon 7' sep. Standard interpretation: Sense of well-being. Center of attention. Much emotion; probably joyful, maybe moodiness or tension-release through tears. Responding to quality. Social, celebrant, indulgent.
t. Venus -180- r. Neptune 39' sep. Standard interpretation: Pursuit of pet pleasure fantasy, even though you “know better.” Heightened esthetics and emotions; your senses are extra sensitive. Uneasiness in relationship or sex.
t. Venus -45- r. Moon 38' ap. Standard interpretation: Affectionate (possibly sexual) attention. Cuddly, gentle, loving; pleasurable and pleasant. You enjoy others. Tender, feelings close to surface. Stresses dismissed.

SUMMARY: These aspects reflect a life-redefining victory and general sense of celebration. (At the very least, he's attending the balls that night.)


SECONDARY PROGRESSIONS
Many of the prior progressed aspects persist, including pVenus-pUranus, pSun-pNeptune, pMercury-pMars, pSun-pMC. The only new progression I see is the very minor p. Moon -30- r. Sun (I count semisextiles in progressions, but not by much).

SUMMARY: Inconclusive, extremely minor tilt to being in the spotlight that day.


SIDEREAL SOLAR RETURN
This isn't a great indication in and of itself for the simple reason that McCain has a job in Washington in January regardless of the outcome of the election. As mentioned previously, for DC it has a New Moon rising (Moon precisely on the Ascendant), which is a superb indication for him ... but the Sun is 4° from conjunct Saturn, which isn't so great an indication. (Saturn itself is on the periphery of the foreground range.) Neptune is on the Westpoint.

Transits to the SSR:
t. Neptune -0- s. Westpoint 2' sep. Uncertainty about career, goals, identity. Possibly hesitation, self-doubt. Should put a solid foundation under his feet and build confidence with clear, decisive action. Drama, music, fantasy, and mysticism can exalt the spirits.

SUMMARY: While this Neptune transit can mean many other specific things, it certainly is emotionally jittery. It's not a great indication for him, and would be more characteristic if he were in the audience than if he were front and center.


SIDEREAL LUNAR RETURN
Inauguration Day occurs in the second half of McCain's personal lunar month. The SLR wouldn't be expected to be the more important chart, but, for completeness, I'll mention that it's marked by natal mars exactly on the IC, and natal Sun on the Nadir (square the Ascendant).

The immediately applicable lunar is the Demi-SLR of January 11. With its Ascendant of 10 Cancer 33, we find Jupiter's conjunction with natal Moon close to the Descendant, and transiting Sun on the Westpoint. (There are other fine points.)

SUMMARY: This is a winner's chart.


QUOTIDIANS
SNQ2. Nothing angular.
SNQ1. Several interesting planets nearby (including natal Mars near the Ascendant and transiting Jupiter near the WP), but nothing dead-on.
SQ. Nothing angular; but the SQ has an exact Sun-Moon conjunction. The SQ Moon conjoins SQ Sun 10' ap. and 12' sep. - meaning that it is 1' from their midpoint. This is also the degree of his natal Descendant.
PSSR. t. Mars rising

SUMMARY:
The SQ New Moon in Leo stands out from all the rest and is a strong indication of enthronement.

SUMMARY OF INAUGURATION DAY CHARTS
These charts have very strong indications that John McCain will be riding very high on prestige, centricity, being in the spotlight, victory, etc. on Inauguration Day.

[Jim Eshelman]

Matthew Quellas has forwarded information about John McCain's birth certificate. His birthtime is 6:25 PM.

PROVENANCE: Ron Gaunt wrote that, "Donald Lamb of The Panama Railroad Company has produced a copy of
McCain's birth certificate." Here is a link to a copy:
http://files.meetup.com/786200/John%20M ... leased.pdf

The data in full, then, is given as:

1936 August 29
6:25pm EST
Colon Hospital, Panama
9N21'56" 79W54'06.

Thanks very much Matthew and Jim for this tip and info. I did a quick web search yesterday and found this site with better copies and additional documentation. http://johnmccain.dominates.us/forum/vi ... f=12&t=145
Regards,
Wayne

[Jim Eshelman]

Hi Jim,
So, this means Obama's chart does not look good?
Thanks,
chrys333

[Jim Eshelman]

So, this means Obama's chart does not look good?

You may want to read the other thread on Obama and compare:
http://solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=244

[Jim Eshelman]

Actually, I did read it, and have read it again. I guess what I wanted was for you to re-look at Obama, and "say it isn't so!" to all the good things for Mc Cain.
Wonder if Mc Cain will live through the 4 years,and whether we will have a President Palin. Does it look like illness for Mc Cain, and the office of presidency for Palin? Hard to believe we will have someone worse than GWB.
Thanks,
chrys333

[Jim Eshelman]

Actually, I did read it, and have read it again. I guess what I wanted was for you to re-look at Obama, and "say it isn't so!" to all the good things for Mc Cain.
Wonder if Mc Cain will live through the 4 years,and whether we will have a President Palin. Does it look like illness for Mc Cain, and the office of presidency for Palin? Hard to believe we will have someone worse than GWB.

I started to write a summary of the separate analyses last night - got 80% through it - then hit a wrong key and lot it all.

All common sense and current indicators show Obama winning; and the single biggest astrological factor that previously looked good for McCain (progressed Jupiter-Ascendant conjunction) is no longer there with the correct birthtime. The picture is much closer with the actual birth times than before.

Despite all common sense saying otherwise, I have to say that, astrologically, McCain comes out on balance. Among other things, I just can't rate Obama's Jupiter-to-Mercury transit at inauguration above McCain's very exact Jupiter-to-Moon; and Obama's progressions look like the high-flying marks are fading and the negative is more in the forefront now.

But there are positives in both charts.

As for successorship: We've had four prior Capricorn Moon Presidents. Two of them died in office, one was chased out of office, and the fourth was nearly impeached.

As for "worse than GWB..." Actually, I don't think that's possible. I think even Palin is head and shoulders above him.

[Jim Eshelman]

I started to write a summary of the separate analyses last night - got 80% through it - then hit a wrong key and lot it all.

You seem to do this a lot So did I till I learned the trick: write long posts in Notepad or another text editor, then paste them into your browser when you're done. (You can delete this post once you've read it, but it's an earnest suggestion.)

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, thanks. I've done that a lot (not always, but a lot). I actually did it in this case except I had already cut and pasted the text before the accident.

The bigger problem is that I do this while doing 10-20 others things at once. The post was written at work, over a period of several hours, a few lines at a time, in between other things. One tends to forget what some of those multiple windows. I had the keyboard accident thinking I was in another window.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim,
Thank you so much.
Love and L.V.X.,
chrys333

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim stated: “Despite all common sense saying otherwise, I have to say that, astrologically, McCain comes out on balance. Among other things, I just can't rate Obama's Jupiter-to-Mercury transit at inauguration above McCain's very exact Jupiter-to-Moon; and Obama's progressions look like the high-flying marks are fading and the negative is more in the forefront now.”

Bradley states in his book, ‘Solar and Lunar Returns’, under Moon/Jupiter symbolism: “…A candidate for public office can hardly expect election if Moon-Jupiter configurations are lacking in his return charts.”

On inauguration day Jan. 20th 2005, W’S SQ1 featured a Moon/Jupiter Paran.

[Jim Eshelman]

Here are some excerpts from the earlier thread on McCain (based on wrong or unknown birthtimes) - I include them unedited before deleting the other (now misleading) thread, so some details may not match the current chart.

With reference to the 9 AM birth chart, on February 7 I wrote:

The single strangest thing in McCain's chart is the 12° Leo Sun. While Saturn's transits have been taking detrimental bites out of the other candidates, McCain began having his solid victories under transiting Saturn's conjunction with his Sun. This gives his current campaign a tremendously more powerful current: It is not so much "Saturn as burden" as it is "redefinition of purpose of life." The senior Senator is riding a high wave in which he likely is seeing the whole culmination of his life focused into his current mission.

"Mac the Maverick" is clearly seen in the Capricorn Moon's partile opposition to Pluto. Also, his Leo Sun is more moderately trine Uranus. As a Leo-Capricorn he is the most pronouncedly (Bill) Clinton-esque except that the Pluto maverick flair dominates instead of Clinton's rising Venus etc. schmoozer.

{...}

Transits on Inauguration Day 2009 are led by Saturn exactly opposite natal Saturn. This is especially an aspect of reassessing the course of one's life. By no means is it detrimental - notice that Bush's 2004 election occurred the exact day of his Saturn Return! Unfortunately, it doesn't help us "read" the day's events very well, only the meaning of the day for him, i.e., that, win or lose, he'll be using that day to take stock and come to terms with what the remainder of his life is going to be. Other transiting aspects also don't really tip a hand on the event: {...} Venus is exactly opposite his Neptune, a transit characterized by the pursuit of pet pleasure fantasies and heightened esthetics and emotions (which could mean anything, under the circumstances!).

EVENT: On February 2, 2008, Mitt Romney announced that he was dropping out of the race. News started circulating around 9:30 AM Eastern Time. McCain's people probably knew about it a little before that.

EVENT: He announced Palin as his running mate in Dayton, OH on his birthday. (The chart - and thus the meaning of the event - looks vastly different for the correct birth time than for the 9 AM time.)

EVENT: McCain was a P.O.W. October 26, 1967 to March 14, 1973. He was shot down over Hanoi and imprisoned there also. (The charts are interesting for this, so far as I've looked, but extremely different from what the 9 AM chart showed.)

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, we are two weeks from Election Day. The media and their polls are saying Obama Wins. The birth chart(s) of McCain and your analysis seems to have the appropriate symbolism for McCain Winning. How are you reading what appears to be contradiction between the polls and the symbolism? Does this mean (if McCain wins) there are simply many undecided voters who will wait and vote for McCain on Election Day? I am beginning to realize/understand what you meant when you wrote several weeks ago—there could be some fire storms on Election Day—because of the nasty aspects. If I have posted this in the wrong topic—move it where it belongs.

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, we are two weeks from Election Day. The media and their polls are saying Obama Wins. The birth chart(s) of McCain and your analysis seems to have the appropriate symbolism for McCain Winning. How are you reading what appears to be contradiction between the polls and the symbolism?

I'm doing the intellectually honest thing of calling the charts the way I see them and showing my work along the way - that's how science progresses. The result will either be as predicted, or will be different, and that will give us something to study.

I've been saying privately that the only way I see Obama winning is with certain kinds of extremely negative circumstances around it. (I've itemized these in private far more than I'm willing to do in public.) I said the same basic thing in print on this forum. Now Obama is suspending his campaigning this week to visit his grandmother (the woman who raised him) who is ailing. Possibly this will figure into the larger picture of events, or possibly not.

Does this mean (if McCain wins) there are simply many undecided voters who will wait and vote for McCain on Election Day? I am beginning to realize/understand what you meant when you wrote several weeks ago—there could be some fire storms on Election Day—because of the nasty aspects.

No, I don't think it means that. Many things are possible. For example, the tide could turn again, as it has sevearl times already. Or there could be election fraud that determines the election results (notice that McCain's chart shows him as extremely combative on Election Day, and that both candidates have some transits consistent with giving victory speeches). Or Obama could win but under circumstances so painful and difficult that one has difficulty calling them a win. Or my application of astrology could simply be wrong. (BTW, this is one of the reasons that I started the study of astrological conditions for victorious Presidents. We only think we know what the circumstances are - we haven't actually demonstrated it.)

[Jim Eshelman]

By the way, after writing the foregoing, I checked the Solar Arc directions of each candidate and found nothing of interest.

I wanted also to apply some adaptations of traditionally Eastern techniques. Donald Bradley did a lot of work with rehabilitating the Dasa-Bhukti system, and, after his death, both Ken Irving and I wrote on his work (and a bit of our own) in this vein. The key points he was investigating (with attention-grabbing success) was understanding the Nakshatra and sub-Nakshatra zones purely as zodiacal zones of space; reconforming the usual "years / months / days" tables to an understanding that the system evolved out of a 360-day year model; and noting Secondary Progressed Moon's passage through the space-areas in particular.

John McCain was born on August 29, 1936, with the Moon at 8°32'56" Capricorn. This longitude is in a Sun-ruled mansion, in the Venus sub-section. That is, we would expect him to have a Venus (and, more particularly, Sun-Venus) cast to his character - not a particularly hard sell. Under Dasa-Bhukti, 235 days remained in Sun-Venus. This shows that he was released as a P.O.W. under a Jupiter-Jupiter sub-period (10/20/71-11/26/73; but he was captured under Rahu-Venus). The attacks and loss he suffered in the 2000 campaign were under Saturn-Mars. He then left the long Saturn dasa and entered a 17-year Mercury dasa on April 19, 2006. He left Mercury-Mercury and entered Ketu-of-Mercury essentially concurrent with his nomination, i.e., on 9/2/2008. He will remain in Ketu-of-Mercury (which my experience shows is essentially Neptune-of-Mercury) through the election and inauguration. Beginning in August 2009, he enters Mercury-Venus, which lasts into 2012.
NOTE: McCain's Moon trines Obama's Moon to the degree, and the planetary periods replicate every 120°; therefore, they are born in the same type of period and sub-period.

We can interpret this according to various theories, and I list three here for comparison, and rely on published quotations to lend objetivity to the interpretation.

The simplest, and (in my experience) usually the most worthwhile, is by pure planetary symbolism. McCain benefitted from leaving the Saturn period in 2006, and is presently in a Mercury cycle. His Mercury is exalted and well-aspected natally; however, a Neptune-Mercury influence can be expected to be distorting, withering, and difficult. Pure planetary symbolism does not make things look good for election or inauguration.

A second approach is by traditional Hindu interpretation of the planet pairs (which is still based substantially on planetary symbolism). Sepharial catalogued these beautifully in The Manual of Astrology, which has served me on and off for decades. For Mercury-Ketu he gives,

The native leaves his place of abode. He experiences some sickness, loss of property, misfortune to his relatives, etc. He has some trouble through doctors, and danger in regard to his medicine. Mental anxiety.

A third approach is that traditional Hindu approach given in James Braha's Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Astrologer. The predominant approach is (1) nature of the planet and (2) house placements of the planet (plus a series of other traditional rules). For a Mercury period overall, Braha gives:

...a great emphasis on learning, writing, speaking, and all intellectual endeavors. The person will delve deeply into the mind and appreciate continuous psychological insights. Mercury is the planet of trade and commerce, and therefore it is a common time of beginning business ventures... involvementi n radio, television, accounting, publishing...

In the traditional Hindu system, with Aquarius rising McCain would have Mercury in the 8th House and Ketu in the 5th House - the first is not good, but the second is quite excellent. (Because Mercury rules the 5th house, this actually constitutes a Raja Yoga as well, despite the maraka placement of Mercury.) For the Dasa ruler in the 8th House, Braha gives, "...problems and difficulties. Circumstances involve joint finances, deaths, insurance benefits, illnesses, thefts, and accidents. Ailments are connected to the reproductive system and chronic illnesses..." For bhukti ruler in the 5th, he gives: "...fortunate results unless the planet is affilcted. Affairs relate to children, investments, sudden wealth, spiritual practices, sports, gambling, painting or craft-type arts, mental pursuits, benefifts from wealthy persons or philanthropists, and promotions to rulership or authority positions. Fifth-house periods produce effects destined to occur as a result of past-life efforts..."

We should also check progressed Moon for the two events.

McCain's progressed Moon for the climax of Election Day will be 9°55' Virgo. This is in a Sun-Venus sector, as with the natal (for progressed Moon is trine natal Moon). For Inauguration Day, it is 12°26' Virgo, in Moon-Rahu (which I have found resembles Moon-Uranus).

Something striking is how similar these are between the two candidates! I would have to say that, by these methods alone, Obama has the advantage, but both have chart factors sufficient to demonstrate a win.

[Jim Eshelman]

There have been many birth times recorded on the BC in error...
not saying in this case but it has been known to happen....

At ADB.... http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/McCainJohn.htm

McCain's mother was quoted by McCain's press secretary that he was born around 9:00 am...also a McCain political TV ad in May 2008 a time of around 11 am was given by his mother.

She's around 90 yrs old so her memory could be off.

So, thought I'd calculate a few Solunars for the date Mccain was shot down over Ha-Noi..Oct 26, 1967...
41 yrs ago today...

Comparing the 9 am and 6:25 pm birth times
As it happened his demi-lunar-res. occurred the same date he was shot down...10/26/67

For the 9 am natal ...demi-lunar... Angular=tr.Mars conj Ep (-2d),
tr. Saturn conj. IC (+2d), N. Mercury conj . MC (-2d)
also tr. Uranus loose conj. MC (-8d)..Mars/Saturn/Mercury/Uranus good description for being shot down/wounded (Mars)/imprisoned (Saturn)...Mercury/Uranus air flight/sudden disruption with Mars/Saturn malefic damage.

For the 6:25 pm natal....demi-lunar ..Angular tr. Jupiter conj. IC (-1d)...paran-sq n. Jupiter conj. Desc (+2d)
also.n. Sun conj. IC (+5d)..guess an argument could be made that tr & n. Jupiter's is responsible to preserving his life.

The 9 am Anlunar on 10/23/67 gives rising Solar Moon 8GEM opposing setting tr. Mars 6Sag. tight orb angular.

The 6 25 pm chart for 10/24/67 has benefics closer to angles and malefics background while
solar moon at 13GEM.7 degrees past solar moon.

After taking all angular aspects into consideration I have to give the nod to the 9 am time especially when comparing solar moons to tr. mars in the anlunars.

Regards, Mike

[Jim Eshelman]

I was happy with the 9 AM time but discarded it when the recorded time came along. In this case, it is more credible not only because it's a recorded time, but because McCain already had an independent memory of having been told earlier in life that he was born around tea time (or something like that - I might not have the quote right - a little before the dinner hour).

So, anyway, I'm going with the recorded time on principle

But I appreciate your reporting on the comparison work you did - this is worthwhile stuff.

[Jim Eshelman]

Interesting Jim...What was your source of McCain being born around "tea time"?

And why isn't it mentioned on ADB or anywhere on the Net at least that I can find through many surfs.
"Tea Time" is not dinner time from what I understand ...maybe in Panama but in merry old England where 'tea time" is an institution taken around mid-afternoon...3 PM or so.

Anyway the demi-lunar for when McCain was shot down speak for themselves with
appropriate symbolism i.e. angular malefics... for the nature of the event in play for the 9 am chart.

Whereas the 6:25 pm demi-lunar has tr. & n. Jupiters angular with background malefics.

My question is which demi-lunar adheres to Sidereal principals?

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim,

i found the 11 am birth time from McCain's mother in a campaign TV ad that ran in May 2008.

He and his mom were having a coversation about the day he was born. First he says that he thought he was born around "happy hour"..(tea time?) on a Friday. His mother immediately contradicted him and says "no John were born on a Saturday around 11 am"...checked Ephemeris 8/29/36...it's a Saturday alright.
here's the YouTube link...
http://www.dependablerenegade.com/depen ... paign.html

[Jim Eshelman]

here's direct you tube link 11 am quote from tv ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2XTDHltNVU

[Jim Eshelman]

With Election Day behind us, while we await Inauguration Day let's do some post mortem on the advance assessment.

TRANSITS
{...}
SUMMARY: Mixed indications. [...] On balance, the Saturn-Moon and Venus-Saturn transits suggest low mood, disappointment, loss, emotionally low. (Against that, there are multiple indications that he and Cindy will be, er, enthusiastically connubial, and one indication [Mercury to Jupiter] that is more representative of a victory speech than a concession speech.)

The emotional disappointment was the main consideration here. He didn't give a victory speech (both candidates had Mercury transits to Jupiter). I can't speak to what went on in private

SECONDARY PROGRESSIONS
{...}
Notice that t. Sun conjoins p. Mercury (part of the Mercury-Mars combination) on Election Night. "Your ideas receive special attention" is likely to be the meaning of this. If it's extremely close and McCain is on the bottom, I think this configuration guarantees a recount fight.

SUMMARY: Leans positive, but may not focus precisely enough on the specific event.

As with Obama's chart, I think the non-lunar Secondary Progressions were just too diffuse in time specificity for us to rely on them. His ideas definitely did receive special attention, but that was going to happen no matter the outcome.

SIDEREAL SOLAR RETURN
This isn't a great indication in and of itself for the simple reason that McCain has a job in Washington in January regardless of the outcome of the election. {...} Worth examining for the election, though, are transits to the SSR. Aside from outer planets conjoining their own SSR places (and the consequent nerve-jangling Mars-to-Neptune transit arising from the Mars-Neptune square occurring that day, and Venus-to-Uranus from similar causes), we see:
t. Jupiter - 135 - s. Moon 15' sep. Sense of well-being. Center of attention. Much emotion; probably joyful, maybe moodiness or tension-release through tears. Responding to quality. Social, celebrant, indulgent.
t. Mars - 45 - s. Mars. We've already seen many ways that this is a competitive, adrenalin-pumping day for McCain! The usual interpretation for this transit would be: Physical, energetic, strenuous. High accomplishment possible, much effort; may overextend own limits. Competition, struggle. Sexually aggressive. Neglectful of manners. (Sounds like the fight is still continuing on Election Day.)

SUMMARY: These transits are victory markers for McCain.

Obviously, they weren't. I notice two things: (1) This Mars transit (among several others) really did show a major push in the last two days. Elsewhere I referred to this as suggesting he was 'just stepping into the ring' on about the last day - which really did seem to be the case. (2) Given the Jupiter transit, I would read this all over again as a positive indication in and of itself. To understand how it gave the wrong answer, we probably need to dig more into relative waiting of considerations, and the factoring in of personal elements. (For example, Jupiter transits to the Moon are quite common for relief at the end of an extreme ordeal.) I have to mark this part of the assessment wrong, though I don't yet know what the fault in method was.

SIDEREAL LUNAR RETURN
McCain has a Lunar Return on Election Day. It's obviously of enormous importance. {...} Based on a reasonable best-estimate that he'll be in Phoenix, the SLR has transiting Sun 5 degrees from the IC and almost partile square the Ascendant (and natal Mars about a degree from that Ascendant). Natal Moon is the exact minute of arc on the Westpoint (using standard Phoenix coordinates). Natal Uranus is 2 degrees from the Midheaven. Transiting Neptune is broadly foreground.

SUMMARY: This SLR shows extreme (presumed positive) mass-attention directed his way amidst continuing competitiveness and some jangled nerves. It leans much more toward victory than not.

I guess I overweighted the "mass-attention directed his way." After all, this was guaranteed to be the case regardless, with dozens of millions of people actually voting for him. On the straight pro/con ranking, though Sun-Moon tends to lean positive, the only clear marker here was transiting Neptune, which leans negative. - This SLR truly should have been been a primary indicator, but didn't give stark win/lose (Jupiter vs. Saturn, for example) markers.

QUOTIDIANS {...}
SNQ2. p. Jupiter on Westpoint.
SNQ1. Nothing angular.
SQ. r. Pluto exactly on the MC.
PSSR. r. Venus rising

As with Obama, these gave exactly the wrong answer. As with the Obama thread, I'll mention here that I'm going to stop using Quotidians to try to predict election outcomes even when we know where someone will be. They let us down very seriously on this one!

In my conclusion, I included:

...a stronger message of these charts is that, on Election Day, McCain will still be embroiled in very aggressive competitive actions. Normally campaigning has stopped by then - but these charts really point to Election Day itself as when this particular fighter climbs into the ring. This also raises the possibility of an election so close (with McCain the seeming loser) that will aggrerssively contesting the reported results in one or more locations.

Well, the last wasn't at all true - it was trying to find an explanation for the former. But the former was quite exactly true. Beginning the day before Election Day and continuing through most of Tuesday, it was as if John McCain just seriously stepped into the ring for his match.

For anything more concrete, we will do better to direct our attention to Inauguration Day.

And that post mortem can wait until January when we see what kind of day he actually has.

[Jim Eshelman]

USING THE 6:25 PM TIME

11/04/08..PHOENIX AZ

SSQ... Ep 26LEO06 (ASC 28LEO07)
NATAL SATURN 26AQA15, NATAL VENUS 29LEO25,
TR. VENUS 26SCO09, TR. SATURN 24LEO08.....= LOSS AND RESIGNATION.....BUMMER

MIKE

What's SSQ?

[Jim Eshelman]

SSQ...actually neo-SSQ calculated in terms of Sun's R.A (Right Ascension) rather than Sidereal Time

Sidereal Solar Quotidian...Solar Return Progressed:
Event Sun's R.A. minus SSR Sun's R.A. (Sidereal Solar Return)
Add difference to SSR's L.S.T.
This equals the L.S.T. for the progressed Solar return date.
L.S.T. = Local Sidereal Time

Mike

[Jim Eshelman]

Sidereal Solar Quotidian

Ah, thanks. Fagan always called that th SQ, not SSQ (or, as you point out, Neo-SQ if the apparent solar rate was used).

[Jim Eshelman]

OK... S.Q. IT'LL BE...ASSUMING ALL THOSE ON BOARD ARE SIDEREAL ASTROLOGERS OR STUDENTS READY TO CROSS OVER FROM THAT TROPICAL VOID OF COSMIC CONFUSION...-:)

[Jim Eshelman]

StarAgeWiz wrote:
OK... S.Q. IT'LL BE...ASSUMING ALL THOSE ON BOARD ARE SIDEREAL ASTROLOGERS OR STUDENTS READY TO CROSS OVER FROM THAT TROPICAL VOID OF COSMIC CONFUSION...

I hear you StarAge—I could be wrong but I think there are many members who are beginning astrologers that are probing and investigating Sidereal Astrology. I feel Sidereal Astrologers will always be in the minority. Fagan, in his day, referred to the students of Sidereal Astrology as the ‘dedicated few’—I think that still applies for today.

Regards, Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

Steve,

Yes, unless one has a good foundation in Sidereal principals and techniques it's pretty difficult to REALLY switch from Tropical to Sidereal. Fortunately I had the opportunity of a 5 year (on weekends) Sidereal class
in the very early seventies in SF and was and still a dedicated student of the Fagan School.
"Primer of Sidereal Astrology" by Cyril Fagan is back in print and is highly recommended for new students of Sidereal Astrology....also here on Jim's site much valuable information for the Sidereal novice....so new students.... study up!!

Mike

[Jim Eshelman]

StarAge--I totally agree with your last post. I know how difficult it is to learn Sidereal Astrology since I have lived my entire life in the astrological wasteland of the rural South, with just my own mind and books. I had to wait for the birth of the internet--- before I was able to ask important questions to other siderealist pertaining to the few books I had already studied on Sidereal Astrology.

Regards, Steve