Pope Pius XI & "mental infirmities" example

[Jim Eshelman]

In The Solunars Handbook, beginning on page 47, Cyril Fagan gave two nearly identical charts for dramatically different lives. One was Sepharial's example of a young woman with "mental defects" who "never had a trace of memory." The other is Pope Pius XI, one of the most erudite of popes ever.

The young woman was born May 31, 1857, 8:15 AM, somewhere in England - Sepharial didn't say where when he published the chart: I've used London and other parts of the country won't make much difference. Pope Pius was born the same day at 8:00 AM in Desio, Italy.

Fagan gave the examples to contest a point Sepharial made about the cause of mental defects - you can read the whole thing yourself if you wish. He concluded, though, by saying that, in all honesty, he thought we should admit that astrology can't tell the difference between the charts enough to explain the difference in their lives.

I agree with him broadly - that the exact particulars aren't discernable with precision - but I still wanted to examine the two charts myself and see (1) if there is a fundamental difference between the charts and (2) if that difference matches the significant differences in their lives.

If you like, set up the charts yourself before reading on.

[Jim Eshelman]

The charts are indeed quite similar. They are so close that Moons are within 1° of each other and Ascendant is in the same constellation.

The angles aren't exactly the same, though, and that's the first thing I notice: The young woman has Saturn within 1° of square MC and Pluto within 1° of square Ascendant. That's quite a distinctive mark! Since the future pope was not born with these (especially the Saturn), we can say that her life was likely much harder than his, to the point of possibly including disabilities.

(I won't go so far as to say those difficulties are reflected by Saturn's sign, Gemini; but it does, nonetheless, leap out and tug at my pants leg not to ignore it.)

Both extremes of mental operation - disabled vs. brilliant - seems reflected by the precise Mercury-Mars conjunction conjunct Sun. It can't be called the "cause" of either extreme, though it is a contributor to the amount of strong current running through both psyches. - The woman had Moon in mundane square to Sun-Mercury-Mars: The pope did not.

You may also want to look at the relative angularity and mundane aspects of Eris in the two charts. However, we don't know enough for sure about Eris for me to consider it in the comparison.

[Jim Eshelman]

Does anybody see anything else of interest in these two charts?

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

The young woman has Saturn within 1° of square MC and Pluto within 1° of square Ascendant. That's quite a distinctive mark!

Indeed, a very distinctive mark! Prominent Saturn-Pluto combo's has a-lot to do with life burdens of some type. I use in my Natal work Direct Midpoints with the lights and angles, more so with Direct Midpoints with the angles. I find with Robert Hand's work on these type Direct Natal Midpoints very important. I note in her chart: not only do we see the angular combo of Saturn-Pluto, but her chart calculates a Direct Midpoint of Saturn/Pluto=Sun (0,23). There is no doubt, this angular Saturn-Pluto combo producing a Direct Saturn/Pluto=Sun is the main signature of her Natal Chart, which with 20-20 hindsight, we see the burden of her life---complete memory loss. It is very tempting to include her partile Mercury-Mars conjunction as a contributing factor to her memory/mental disorder. Negative Mercury-Mars manifestations seems to have a lot to do with types of mental disorders.

[Veronica]

Does anybody see anything else of interest in these two charts?

I think that why the man became successful and the woman did not is due to Jupiter.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim wrote:

The young woman has Saturn within 1° of square MC and Pluto within 1° of square Ascendant. That's quite a distinctive mark!

I note in her chart: not only do we see the angular combo of Saturn-Pluto, but her chart calculates a Direct Midpoint of Saturn/Pluto=Sun (0,23). There is no doubt, this angular Saturn-Pluto combo producing a Direct Saturn/Pluto=Sun is the main signature of her Natal Chart, which with 20-20 hindsight, we see the burden of her life---complete memory loss.

Pope Pius, of course, also had Su = Sa/Pl (22'), so it is a most interesting observation that she has this AND that it's exactly angular for her and not for him.

It is very tempting to include her partile Mercury-Mars conjunction as a contributing factor to her memory/mental disorder. Negative Mercury-Mars manifestations seems to have a lot to do with types of mental disorders.

He, of course, had this also - I agree it is really tempting to include it in the discussion of either one of them, though in completely opposite ways - so this becomes a great example of how exactly the same aspect can have polar opposite expressions (both fitting).

And it's not just Mercury-Mars: They closely conjoin Sun. Also, they're in the immediate background, which shows as clear pathology for her but not for him.: It shows brilliance. (Since he eventually died after two heart attacks and breathing problems - perhaps congestive heart failure? - the same Sun-Mercury-Mars symbolism eventual shows for health, but nowhere near as vividly as for the woman.)

But what I then find intriguing - given our other recent discussions on this - is that the woman had the Mercury-Mars-Sun even more important because of Moon's mundane aspects to them, which Pope Pius did not have. If we take London as the best estimate of her birth place - with an added factor:

21°10' (11th) - Sun
22°02' (11th) - Mars
22°57' (2nd) - Moon
23°51' (11th) - Mercury
24°53' (5th) - Eris

He doesn't have any of this beyond the Sun-Mercury-Mars conjunction.

Finally - speculatively - if we consider houses valid, notice that her Moon has moved 7° into the 2nd house. His, on the other hand, is still 1°09' within the 3rd house. That at least would give a different shift in life theme. I don't know what her life was actually like (obviously limited), though Moon in 3rd is quite descriptive of his life in a way that is emphatically not part of her story.

[Jim Eshelman]

Does anybody see anything else of interest in these two charts?

I think that why the man became successful and the woman did not is due to Jupiter.

Veronica, her Jupiter is even stronger than his. She had Jupiter square Ascendant within 2°53' (I'll go as much as 3° if needed, though 2° is better), while his was 4°41' (too far IMO).

Or... am I missing something you saw?

[Jim Eshelman]

I suppose we could take this opportunity to test his round-hour birth time with his well documented death. Wikipedia documents details of his death quite minutely:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XI

He died February 10, 1939, 5:31 AM in Rome. The immediate cause was a third heart attack and his failing pulmonary condition, although there are thoughts he was murdered by the Mussolini regime.

TRANSITS: Transiting Pluto conjoined his Ascendant within 0°08' for the 8:00 AM birth time. Saturn was 4° past MC, meaning either that his birth time was much earlier (unlikely) or that he'd been undergoing gradual deterioration for months (known to be true). Neptune was in partile orb of opposite his Neptune (a life-shift more than a transit, but probably one reflecting frailty) and octile his Pluto (16').

PROGRESSIONS: Besides progressed Sun having reached Regulus to the exact minute of arc, the one thing I find interesting is progressed Mars square natal Pluto 0°01'. (There is also Venus sextile Jupiter. He died embracing and speaking of peace.) Viewed as a quotidian, nothing is quite angular: One would have to move the birth time 10-15 minutes earlier to put benefics on the angle that reflect the tone of his last hours, but I'm disinclined to jump to that conclusion.

SSR: Natal Saturn about 1° (ecliptically) from IC. Transiting Saturn square MC 0°04' and natal Saturn 1°17'. Dead on! Also a near-partile Moon-Pluto conjunction. (Other fine points.)

BTW, I still look at the demi- and quarti-solars just to test whether I've fooled myself about their worthlessness. (So far, they keep seeming, at best, not worth the bother.) In this case, the demi-SSR is primarily a Mercury chart but does have a Moon-Mars opposition which would match his deteriorating health; but his Sun is exactly on EP unafflicted, which would show strong vitality, and mismatches. I remain unimpressed.

SLR: Transiting Saturn and Pluto foreground (plus Mercury) - not close, but not bad, and symbolically correct. What is close is natal Saturn on EP. Also, the rising Pluto is 0°03' from conjunct his natal Ascendant. - Transiting Saturn and Pluto are 4-5° off MC and Asc, in 0°46' mundane square. (Add Eris to the mix if you like.)

SQ: Bingo! Transiting Mars exactly on Asc. The birth time appears correct to the minute. (PSSR and SNQ showed nothing.)

[Veronica]

Does anybody see anything else of interest in these two charts?

I think that why the man became successful and the woman did not is due to Jupiter.

Veronica, her Jupiter is even stronger than his. She had Jupiter square Ascendant within 2°53' (I'll go as much as 3° if needed, though 2° is better), while his was 4°41' (too far IMO).

Or... am I missing something you saw?

I saw you said......" Broadly"

I looked up that date and also that year for other famous/notable people and came across a host of wonderful fellows with noted achievements. At least 50.

Thousands of people were born that date, hundreds at that ballpark time yet history only told me of two notable women total for the entire year.

That woman was born to be famous any which way and if history remembers her as a woman who doesnt remember .......

Astrology isn't biased

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Both extremes of mental operation - disabled vs. brilliant - seems reflected by the precise Mercury-Mars conjunction conjunct Sun. It can't be called the "cause" of either extreme, though it is a contributor to the amount of strong current running through both psyches. - The woman had Moon in mundane square to Sun-Mercury-Mars: The pope did not.

We have long known that all aspects have their positive & negative manifestations and at times its very difficult to know if the positive or negative will manifest in life. I think your observation of the mundane square to Sun-Mercury-Mars explains well for the “disabled” vs the “brilliant” without the mundane Moon square to the same Sun-Mercury-Mars conjunction. This thread represents another fine example the importance of mundane natal aspects, particularly with the Moon.

[Jim Eshelman]

Add addition to this thread years later...

While claiming anything concrete may be premature, there is an outstanding difference between these charts that I just discovered. (I hinted at it above, so may have seen it years ago in a much earlier stage of understanding Eris.)

The woman has the following mundane aspects that do not appear in Pope Pius' chart at all. It also fell in the background where medical difficulties have most often been found.

21°03' (11H) - Sun
21°55' (11H) - Mars
22°43 (2H) - Moon
23°43' (11H) - Mercury
24°05' (5H) - Eris

That is (M for mundo):

Mercury-Mars co. 0°22'
Moon-Mars sq. 0°48' M
Sun-Mars co. 0°53' M
Moon-Mercury sq. 1°00' M
Mercury-Eris op. 1°22' M
Sun-Mercury co 1°31'
Moon-Sun sq. 1°40' M
Moon-Eris sq. 2°22' M

While Pope Pius had the triple Sun-Mercury-Mars conjunction, it wasn't in Class 1 (close) mundane square to Moon and - more importantly - was not in mundane opposition to Eris. (The aspects were there, but much wider.) His aspects among these planets had quite different orbs, and quite different Mercury cosmic states. The pope's chart showed:

Mercury-Mars co. 0°19'
Sun-Mars co. 0°58' M
Sun-Mercury co. 1°34'

Both had Mercury-Mars conjunction closest of all the aspects in this particular set. I am now wondering if a significant difference was the background presence of Moon-Mercury-Eris in particular for the woman. Here is a side-by-side comparison of the cosmic state of Mercury for each chart:

Code: Select all

Pope Pius XI
Me Ta  B | co Ma 00°19'    co Su 01°34'    sq Er 05°00'    sq Mo 05°21'M   
         |    Su/Ma 38'd      Ve/Sa 50'd   

Mentally impaired woman
Me Ta  B | co Ma 00°22'    sq Mo 01°00'M   op Er 01°22'M   co Su 01°31'    
         | sq Ne 04°57'M   
         |    Su/Ma 35'd      Ve/Sa 51'd

These feel quite different - a very good example of the use of the Cosmic State report. If we allow wider mundane aspects (which I have for this example), I notice she also pulls a Mercury-Neptune square.

[Jim Eshelman]

If anyone wants to study this more deeply, here is a TMSA report set (including Cosmic State) for Pope Pius XI (10 planets only):

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
Mo 25Le36'45" 01N22 +12°14' 169°50' 05N52  23°25' -35°49'  61°09'   0%  
Su 16Ta59'13" 00S00 +57'28"  68°05' 21N56  95°30' +36°43' 323°09'   3%  
Me 18Ta33'31" 02S09 -33'17"  70°04' 20N01  95°44' +34°03' 325°49'   1%  
Ve 18Ar40'24" 00S55 - 1'16"  39°17' 14N24 130°38' +49°34' 302°53'  36%  
Ma 18Ta52'27" 00N28 +41'29"  70°01' 22N39  93°22' +35°50' 324°07'   2%  
Ju 10Ar52'27" 01S05 +12'57"  31°45' 11N43 142°40' +50°51' 296°16'  48%  
Sa 20Ge05'43" 00S15 + 6'58" 103°56' 22N36  70°20' +12°29' 346°46'  59%  
Ur 03Ta11'20" 00S14 + 3'25"  53°40' 19N02 110°33' +44°32' 313°35'  17%  
Ne 29Aq45'48" 01S09 + 0'49" 353°35' 04S02 199°29' +38°33' 247°17'  14%  
Pl 13Ar09'23" 16S11 + 1'10"  38°54' 01S48 141°52' +35°36' 310°47'  23%  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects         Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
Mo oc Ju 00°16' 99%      Mo sq Me 05°21' 47% M     Mo tr Ve 06°56' 13%  
Su co Me 01°34' 97%      Mo sx Sa 05°31' 44%       Mo sq Ma 06°44' 18%  
Su co Ma 00°58' 99% M    Mo op Ne 04°09' 81%       Su co Ur 09°34'  8% M
Me co Ma 00°19'100%      Ve co Ju 06°37' 54% M     Sa sx Pl 06°56' 13%  
Ju co Pl 02°17' 94%      Ve oc Sa 01°07' 78% M                          
Ur co Pl 02°49' 91% M    Ve co Pl 05°31' 68%                            
                         Sa oc Ur 01°54' 40%                            
                         Ur sx Ne 03°26' 78%                            
                         Ne oc Pl 01°36' 56%                            
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Cosmic State                              
Mo Le  B | Su Ta+
         | oc Ju 00°16'    op Ne 04°09'    sq Me 05°21'M   sx Sa 05°31'    
         | sq Ma 06°44'    tr Ve 06°56'    
         |    Pl/As 57'd   
Su Ta  B | Mo Le+
         | co Ma 00°58'M   co Me 01°34'    co Ur 09°34'M   
         |    Sa/Pl 22'd   
Me Ta  B | co Ma 00°19'    co Su 01°34'    sq Mo 05°21'M   
         |    Su/Ma 38'd      Ve/Sa 50'd   
Ve Ar-   | Su Ta+
         | oc Sa 01°07'M   co Pl 05°31'    co Ju 06°37'M   tr Mo 06°56'    
         |    Ma/Mc 51'd   
Ma Ta- B | Su Ta-
         | co Me 00°19'    co Su 00°58'M   sq Mo 06°44'    
         |    Ve/Sa 31'd   
Ju Ar    | oc Mo 00°16'    co Pl 02°17'    co Ve 06°37'M   
         |    Ur/Mc 54'd   
Sa Ge    | oc Ve 01°07'M   sx Mo 05°31'    oc Ur 01°54'    sx Pl 06°56'    
         |    Ju/Ne 13'd      Mo/Pl 43'd   
Ur Ta  B | Mo Le-
         | co Pl 02°49'M   sx Ne 03°26'    oc Sa 01°54'    co Su 09°34'M   
         |    Ne/As 13'd      Sa/Mc 15'd      Su/Ve 22'd      Me/Ve 26'd   
         |    Ve/Ma 35'd   
Ne Aq  B | op Mo 04°09'    sx Ur 03°26'    oc Pl 01°36'    
Pl Ar+ B | co Ju 02°17'    co Ur 02°49'M   co Ve 05°31'    oc Ne 01°36'    
         | sx Sa 06°56'    
As Cn    |    Mo/Su 07'd      Mo/Me 54'd   
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the same for his near astro-twin:

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
Mo 26Le03'25" 01N20 +12°13' 170°14' 05N40  25°46' -29°44'  52°43'   4%  
Su 17Ta01'19" 00S00 +57'28"  68°07' 21N56 103°05' +38°13' 321°03'   5%  
Me 18Ta32'19" 02S10 -33'19"  70°03' 20N00 102°56' +35°35' 323°43'   3%  
Ve 18Ar40'21" 00S56 - 1'11"  39°17' 14N23 140°09' +47°07' 300°45'  40%  
Ma 18Ta53'58" 00N28 +41'29"  70°03' 22N40 100°46' +37°35' 321°55'   4%  
Ju 10Ar52'55" 01S05 +12'57"  31°46' 11N43 151°37' +47°16' 293°43'  88% F
Sa 20Ge05'59" 00S15 + 6'58" 103°56' 22N36  74°27' +16°39' 342°45'  98% F
Ur 03Ta11'28" 00S14 + 3'25"  53°40' 19N02 119°40' +44°18' 311°41'  21%  
Ne 29Aq45'50" 01S09 + 0'49" 353°35' 04S02 202°30' +32°09' 238°41'   0%  
Pl 13Ar09'25" 16S11 + 1'10"  38°54' 01S48 148°22' +32°12' 309°48' 100% F
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects         Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
Mo sq Su 01°40' 95% M    Mo sx Sa 05°57' 35%       Mo tr Ve 07°23'  3%  
Mo sq Me 01°00' 98% M    Mo op Ne 03°42' 85%       Mo tr Ur 07°08'  9%  
Mo sq Ma 00°48' 99% M    Me sq Ne 04°57' 54% M     Su co Ur 09°22' 11% M
Mo oc Ju 00°10' 99%      Ve co Pl 05°31' 68%       Ve co Ju 07°02' 48% M
Su co Me 01°31' 97%      Sa oc Ur 01°55' 39%       Ma sq Ne 06°45' 17% M
Su co Ma 00°53' 99% M    Ur sx Ne 03°26' 78%       Sa sx Pl 06°57' 13%  
Me co Ma 00°22'100%      Ne oc Pl 01°36' 56%                            
Ve sx Sa 01°26' 96%                                                     
Ju co Pl 02°16' 94%                                                     
Ur co Pl 01°53' 96% M                                                   
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Cosmic State                              
Mo Le  B | Su Ta+
         | oc Ju 00°10'    sq Ma 00°48'M   sq Me 01°00'M   sq Su 01°40'M   
         | op Ne 03°42'    sx Sa 05°57'    tr Ur 07°08'    tr Ve 07°23'    
         |    Sa/Ur 35'd      Ju/As 49'd   
Su Ta  B | Mo Le+
         | co Ma 00°53'M   co Me 01°31'    sq Mo 01°40'M   co Ur 09°22'M   
         |    As/Mc 09'd      Sa/Pl 24'd   
Me Ta  B | co Ma 00°22'    sq Mo 01°00'M   co Su 01°31'    sq Ne 04°57'M   
         |    Su/Ma 35'd      Ve/Sa 51'd   
Ve Ar-   | Su Ta+
         | sx Sa 01°26'    co Pl 05°31'    co Ju 07°02'M   tr Mo 07°23'    
         |    Su/Mc 16'd   
Ma Ta- B | Su Ta-
         | co Me 00°22'    sq Mo 00°48'M   co Su 00°53'M   sq Ne 06°45'M   
         |    Ve/Sa 29'd   
Ju Ar  F | oc Mo 00°10'    co Pl 02°16'    co Ve 07°02'M   
Sa Ge  F | sx Ve 01°26'    oc Ur 01°55'    sx Mo 05°57'    sx Pl 06°57'    
         |    Ju/Ne 13'd      Mo/Pl 30'd   
Ur Ta  B | Mo Le-
         | co Pl 01°53'M   sx Ne 03°26'    oc Sa 01°55'    co Su 09°22'M   
         | tr Mo 07°08'    
         |    Su/Ve 21'd      Me/Ve 25'd      Ve/Ma 36'd   
Ne Aq  B | op Mo 03°42'    sx Ur 03°26'    oc Pl 01°36'    sq Me 04°57'M   
         | sq Ma 06°45'M   
Pl Ar+ F | co Ur 01°53'M   co Ju 02°16'    co Ve 05°31'    oc Ne 01°36'    
         | sx Sa 06°57'    
As Cn    |    Ur/Mc 51'd      Ju/Pl 52'd   
Mc Pi    |    Ju/Ne 33'd      Ne/Pl 35'd   
Angle    |    Ve/Ne 17'M   
------------------------------------------------------------------------