Best Friend I Ever Had

[LeiLei]

We met through work when we were in our late teens & were instant best friends. I had a lot of great friendships when I was young & a couple of best friends but there was no one (and no one since) that I connected to more than this friend, let's call her Lila. However, our friendship kind of unraveled about 15 years after we met. I had already moved out of state in my early twenties but we still maintained steady hours long phone conversations & would see each other from time to time. But then my dad died, I was raising my then preteen son, was back to school, and was a in a disaster of a marriage. It was easy to shut the world out & only focus on what truly demanded my attention. I actually did this with all of my friends in some shape or form but that's another thread.
Anyways we've maintained sporadic communication regardless over the last decade & I recently contacted her to ask her for her birth time. I've only just begun to dig in but I immediately noticed our Moons in opposition & her Uranus atop my Venus & 3° from my MC. Loads of other connections too, her Jupiter partile my DSC, her Venus a little over 4° from my ASC. Her MC near my Moon. Even her DSC a bit over 1°from my Node. I am very regretful I neglected this dear friendship & seeing the way our charts connect really reveals what a loss it truly has been.

I thought this would be an interesting synastry example to share so here's our data:
Lila's birth data: March 6, 1979, 7:36 am, Lilburn, Ga
Mine: October 7, 1978, 3:35 pm, Decatur, Ga

And on a separate but related note, wow Uranus crossing my IC has truly been a trip down memory lane! I don't know why but I did not expect it would have this effect!

[SteveS]

Nice Venus-Jupiter-Uranus interrelationship!
FWIW, I can add one other feature with this relationship relating to the Composite Chart. According to Robert Hand’s guidelines for Composite Charts with this relationship, the most prominent feature without a doubt, is the conjunction (2,06) of Moon-Node in the 7th House (House of Relationships). The 7th House was the most important House to look at according to the authors for Composite Charts.

From Ebertin’s COSI book the “Principle” of Moon-Node:

A spiritual link or union with others.

“Probable Manifestations”

Associations and contacts with the female sex.

Interesting synastry and composite chart. Thanks for sharing.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Interesting...

Alexander Marr had a technique, where he would take two connected people and generate the prenatal chart of the younger person in time by the amount that that the older person is from the younger.

Doing that here, we have a Jupiter-Moon conjunction to 0° 0' of arc, which squares the Node. (positive, optimistic emotions...success at primary needs being met, etc.)

Neptune opposes Venus 0° 49' of arc. (idealization of the feminine, devotion, etc.)

These are the main partile aspects in that chart and they certainly appear correct, based on the description.

[SteveS]

James wrote:

These are the main partile aspects in that chart and they certainly appear correct, based on the description.

Indeed!!! I have never heard of this technique. Can you offer Marr’s mathemactical reasoning for this technique?

[Jim Eshelman]

And on a separate but related note, wow Uranus crossing my IC has truly been a trip down memory lane! I don't know why but I did not expect it would have this effect!

One of the sentences in my posted interpretation for transiting Uranus to the IC is "A need to refresh close, family relationships." In writing this, I didn't mean what you reported - I meant that transiting Uranus to an angle brings change and, to the IC, the change is probably more likely to touch domestic, private, physically and psychologically "close to home" things. It goes with the vaguer (but true for most Uranus transits) sentence, "This is a time of self-exploration and important psychological changes."

Other astrologers open connect the IC to psychological roots - "memory lane" being the usual street address of those roots - so there may be something to that.

But there's also a lot more going on in your chart right now, including transiting Pluto hovering around your Asc (opposed by Sun over the last few days). It does seem that all the transit energies hover around the idea of "psychological review" to consolidate something inside you as a preliminary to a big (psychological or physical) shift - a shift that will be memorable and decisive when viewed across the length of your life.

[Jim Eshelman]

The synastry is indeed interesting - thanks for sharing. I think you landed at once on one of the most important aspects, the < 2° of your Moons. Usually, we see this when they are also in opposite signs - not what's happening here. The opposite signs would be enough even without the aspect, but the aspect gives one of the strongest senses of connection. As written in the interpretive thread above:

PRINCIPLE: Simpatico, attunement, subconscious pattern aligned, psyches mutually open.
Strong mutual attraction and feeling comfortably "at home" with each other, broadly in tune, responding to the tone of the world similarly, and sharing like-minded interests (simpatico). Their psyches are open to each other. Empathy comes easily. Their subconscious patterns more easily align. Especially when young, we tend to herd with those with whom we have Moon-Moon connections. Though not particularly common for marriage, it is nonetheless a pleasing, connecting aspect.

But the other gigantically important aspect is her Venus conjunct your Ascendant! This alone means that she loved you greatly. It's even better because her Venus-Jupiter opposition is right across your horizon: Double benefics for you (triple, really: Her Uranus, like everyone's Uranus born close to you, is on your MC). This is remarkably positive (and what planets could possibly say "best friend ever!" better than Venus-Jupiter).

Her Sun square your Neptune (partile, while her own Sun-Neptune square is wide) is interesting. It does mark people who are enraptured with each other, who can stir fantasies in each other Here's my longer interp:

Sun [Lila] catches Neptune's [you] fancy (or the enchantment is reciprocal). There is uneasiness; Neptune may baffle Sun; the encounter somehow makes no sense. Therefore, it works best if it does not have to make sense. In romance or sex, each finds the other to be a temptation appropriate to indulge in as if ordering dessert. (Temporary conditions may provide the "appropriateness.") In non-conjugal situations, Sun nonetheless ignites some unspoken fantasy in Neptune. Many close, mutually enraptured couples have this interchange.

This is a good example of something I've used for synastry interpretations and only recently realized was worth mentioning. The principle has many applications for giving insight: Lila has a (wide, weak) Sun-Neptune square - enough that a Sun-Neptune quality is natural to her but not too much. Your Neptune to her Sun is the same aspect but several degrees closer. Besides the usual "my this to her that" synastry interpretation, it would also be true that when around you she feels and enacts your own Sun-Neptune much more strongly. Might this be true? There are several versions of it, such as bringing out salient traits in her character. What I've often seen in troubled relationships is that the dynamics often work through projection: That is, it's her own Sun-Neptune that is being fired and intensified, but only when around you or relating to you; therefore, her subconscious associates the behavior with you, tends to see you as the Sun-Neptune expression that is actually her own. I'm not saying this is how it worked with the two of you, since (for example) being mindful of projections or a bit more self-aware would make this less likely; I'm just mentioning it as a teaching point in general. But it might have been one way for this to work out.

Nor can that 0°06' Venus-Uranus interchange be overlooked - it's so close. And your Jupiter is closer to opposite her Venus than her own Jupiter, so (aside from her benefics falling across your horizon), you tend to draw her own Venus-Jupiter out into expression even more. (She's a natural Venus-Jupiter and the world feels EVEN MORE Venus-Jupiter to her when she's around you.)

It's all quite excellent! The only thing hinting at negativity (besides the Sun-Neptune which can go different ways but is usually pretty positive) is a weak aspect, her Mars opposite your Saturn (slightly closer than it opposes her own Saturn). I wouldn't emphasize this much: I think we should assess what the fundamental nature of a relationship is from the closest aspects (and the somewhat wider ones involving luminaries), then use wider aspects only to fill in the gaps. Therefore, this shows as a fundamentally positive, close connection which also has a squiggle of Mars-Saturn through it. It might have been missed entirely, except that you met through work - and this is an aspect that does better in work/task situations. It is common that Mars-Saturn relationships are prone to incompletions or withheld communication, which may be a bit of what you're seeing right now.

[SteveS]

I have looked at maybe a few dozens synastry charts, but for sure this synastry is the most benefic I have ever witness. Best friends in life will always be counted on one hand---they are special for the sanity of life.

[LeiLei]

Thank you everyone for your responses. It was certainly a special friendship, we used to refer to each other as soul sisters.

Definitely dead on about our Mars-Saturn opposition, Jim. I withdrew, restricted communication, she wasn't at all happy about it but I shut her out anyways & eventually she relented. And now here we are with me full of regret.

On a positive note, she was very interested in learning about what I would find. I wrote her back today about all of our aspects & also expressed how sorry I was. Maybe this will rekindle our friendship. She's very busy though, has a young daughter, recently married, & has plenty of friends so I'm not sure there's much room for me.

If anything this thread will hopefully give proper warning to others to not sacrifice loving relationships no matter how hard life becomes. That being said, I think this is all part of my much larger (and harder to comprehend) life plan. For whatever reason I have needed to experience almost total isolation & all the loneliness & pain that comes along with it. But that's for further discussion on my natal chart thread!

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm not looking at your chart right now, but don't you have a Sun-Pluto conjunction?

[LeiLei]

I'm not looking at your chart right now, but don't you have a Sun-Pluto conjunction?

Yes I do, 2°19'. Totally explains my reclusive behavior for sure.

[SteveS]

LeiLei wrote:

She's very busy though, has a young daughter, recently married, & has plenty of friends so I'm not sure there's much room for me.

LeiLei, when I met my two best friends for my life, my marriage separated our friendship. I married and had to start earning a living moving away from the city where my two best friends remained. We didn’t even communicate much by phone which seems weird/not right for two best friends after looking back on 75 years of life. But there was a common thread which brought my two best friends back into my life on a very close relationship. After my wife & I moved back into the same city where one of my best friends lived I called him to meet for lunch. It just so happened when we got back together for lunch after not seeing each other for 13 years my friend had just separated/divorced from his wife with his son staying with him and his daughter moving to another city with his ex. My friend was in great emotional pain with this divorce and told me if it was not for his son & daughter he would have committed suicide. I told him we would start talking/seeing each more like it was when we lived in the same city. My friend years later told me I saved the sanity of his life which was then filled with so much pain from a broken family with the divorce. I was able to share my discovery of astrology with him, particularly pertaining to the time for the pain of his divorce. Years later he told me when I got him to understand through astrology that there were natural astrological laws which explained the time for great emotional pain in life---this was what allowed healing back into his life along with my again close companionship among us. He said I was the one that allowed him to start laughing again overcoming his emotional pain. Ever since this reunion of our friendship our friendship grew even deeper with both of us realizing how important our initial friendship was becoming to each other, we were there for each other for laughter and friendship helping each other overcome the emotional pains of life. This was the friend who passed away last March.

My wife’s father died in 1991 and my wife & I took her mother to the beach to help her get away to start the healing processes of losing her husband of 50 + years. It just happen my other best friend of my life lived in the same community. After 21 years of being separated from him with no communications, I decide to make contact with him for a dinner. It just so happen when we met for dinner he was at a time in his life experiencing great emotional pain from a separation with the love of his life. He also told me he was having suicidal thoughts. I went through the same process with him sharing my astrological knowledge with him. Years later he told me the same as my other friend that I came back into his life at a crises time of great emotional pain. He said I saved his life with a new fresh outlook on life with me explaining to him that there are mathematical laws at play with our births through the science of astrology which actually gave birth to the saying ‘timing is everything’ with times for painful crises. This was the same friend who introduced me to my wife, which rebirthed my life with love. Since this reunion our friendship grew to deeper levels, and if not for this friend my economic future would have been ruined putting great strain on my wife and me.

I guess what I am trying to explain is best friends are in place for our lives to help us get through the emotional pains of life, because I kinda see you in a relationship with your best friend with you knowing and learning astrology recently acquiring her birth data. I got this feeling you may one day be there at the right time for your best friend with your astrology for her possible future emotional pains. I don’t know for sure how your relationship with your ‘best friend ever’ will play out, but I do know for sure ‘Time will tell.’ Looking at the synastry chart I get this feeling that your ‘best friend ever’ has not yet played the greater benefic effect for your life. Who knows for sure—but maybe your best friend may one day be a greater part of bringing much happiness back into your life. Our lives are wonderful deep ‘mysteries.’

[LeiLei]

I guess what I am trying to explain is best friends are in place for our lives to help us get through the emotional pains of life, because I kinda see you in a relationship with your best friend with you knowing and learning astrology recently acquiring her birth data. I got this feeling you may one day be there at the right time for your best friend with your astrology for her possible future emotional pains. I don’t know for sure how your relationship with your ‘best friend ever’ will play out, but I do know for sure ‘Time will tell.’ Looking at the synastry chart I get this feeling that your ‘best friend ever’ has not yet played the greater benefic effect for your life. Who knows for sure—but maybe your best friend may one day be a greater part of bringing much happiness back into your life. Our lives are wonderful deep ‘mysteries.’

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences Steve. My friend & I were certainly there for each other in the past but my reclusive tendencies eventually put an end to that. I can understand it being hard for her to trust that I won't disappear again. I definitely have a lot of idiosyncrasies & I'm realizing I'm an even more difficult person than I already knew. I'm just too much! But I'm working on some posts for my natal chart thread where I'll dive into all of that.

And yes wonderful deep mysteries they are for sure.

[SteveS]

LeiLei, Jim wrote about the synastry with your Moon and LiLi’s Moon:

The synastry is indeed interesting - thanks for sharing. I think you landed at once on one of the most important aspects, the < 2° of your Moons. Usually, we see this when they are also in opposite signs - not what's happening here. The opposite signs would be enough even without the aspect, but the aspect gives one of the strongest senses of connection.

My ‘best friend ever’ who passed away a few months ago featured my Natal Moon at 15,22 Scorpio and my friend’s Natal Moon at 14,02 Taurus-- falling in my 1st House-7th House axis.I think Jim's observation must be very accurate: “the (Moon) aspect gives one of the strongest senses of connection” for synastry charts. Thanks Jim for this observation! It certainly explains the best for me astrologically WHY we felt this ‘strong sense of connection’ in our friendship relationship.

[Jim Eshelman]

Sometimes only the sign conjunction or opposition (same sign or opposite sign) is enough: With my Aquarius Moon, I've been involved with more Leo and Aquarius Moon women than (more or less) the whole zodiac put together. My wife's Moon is in Leo and not in actual opposition to my Moon, but we are keenly aware of the sign polarity. A decades-long marriage-like relationship had my Moon square her Moon.

In junior high school and high school, I was able to observe that the kids who hung out with each other, including clusters of friends who were their own clique, usually had one Moon sign (or its opposite) among the whole group of them, apparently feeling various kinds of closeness including a sense of being "same ken" or "same family" or their own community.

But aspect by degree is, of course, much stronger.

To my great surprise, Moon-Moon is not that strong in marriage. (I would think it would be but, for example, Jung's famous small study did not find this in the mix.) There are, however, famous well-bonded marriages with a close Moon-Moon interchange - George and Barbara Bush, Paul and Linda McCartney, etc. It's common enough in psychic collaborators, such as the married couple Jack Parsons and Marjorie Cameron or the collaborators John Dee and Edward Kelly. However, it's easier to find people with strong, family-like ties in other collaborative (often business) relationships, such as the brothers Ernest and Julio Gallo or best friends Eric Clapton and George Harrison, or most crisscross relationships within the Beatles (who all had Rim Moons anyway), including John with George and Ringo, Ringo with Paul and George. (Ringo was the only one connected to all of them by aspect, though they all had sign-level contacts, e.g., John's Moon in Capricorn and Paul's in Cancer. Even former Beatles Stu Sutcliffe and Pete Best, and their manager Brian Epstein, had Capricorn Moon.)

In fact, here is the whole list of "Beatles and 5th, 6th, or 7th Beatles," which is a stunning example of Moon's importance in synastry. (George Martin had Moon in Leo.)

Cancer - Paul McCartney, Ringo Starr
Libra - George Harrison, Eric Clapton
Capricorn - John Lennon, Stu Sutcliffe, Pete Best, Brian Epstein
Aries - None

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "Can you offer Marr’s mathemactical reasoning for this technique?"

Decades of research (by Marr) and my continuous examination of prenatal transits (progressions, etc.) show that they are 100% as valid as their direct counterparts.

If two people are together (as lovers, as friends, as partners, etc.), then the younger person's birthchart is a TRANSIT to the older person's chart. Marr likely figured that taking that younger person's as prenatal transits to the older should give a valid chart.

Marr: The New Partner-Horoscope

This method has been tested by the writer with more than 200 examples. It may be regarded as the complement to the traditional comparison of two Radix horoscopes... As distinct from the usual Radix-Radix interpretation, where the mutual aspects have to be analyzed, the Partner-Horoscope not only allows an evaluation of mutual aspects but also has to be regarded as an independent self-contained Horoscope. Charts of this kind permit the astrologer to evaluate the output of the partnership. The Partner-Horoscope is the product of both participants and it always has a lot to show as regards good or poor choices for the future.

[SteveS]

James wrote:

If two people are together (as lovers, as friends, as partners, etc.), then the younger person's birthchart is a TRANSIT to the older person's chart. Marr likely figured that taking that younger person's as prenatal transits to the older should give a valid chart.

So, if i understand where Marr's is coming from--he is saying using bi-wheels to compare two people natal's the transits of the younger person's natal to the older person natal is much more important than comparing the older person's natal to the younger person's natal? I am not sure I understand the difference for a synastry analysis? Thanks

[Jim Eshelman]

Decades of research (by Marr) and my continuous examination of prenatal transits (progressions, etc.) show that they are 100% as valid as their direct counterparts.

To be clear: You mean converse transits and progressions, right? (All along, whenever you have written "prenatal," I thought you were using some version of the Prenatal Epoch as a secondary chart, but it looks like you mean what are otherwise called converse transits and progressions, yes?

Agreed: These are of value and maybe equal to direct. (Ignoring finer distinctions for another time.)

If two people are together (as lovers, as friends, as partners, etc.), then the younger person's birthchart is a TRANSIT to the older person's chart. Marr likely figured that taking that younger person's as prenatal transits to the older should give a valid chart.

I regard both charts as transits to each other. That is, the normal methods of synastry operate more or less like transits. It has seemed to me that we are relating to a specific moment, a specific point in time-space, and that it doesn't matter whether that moment is earlier or later in the time stream.

What I'm missing is why converse transits are needed (and I may be missing the exact method). From what you've posted previously, it seems you are saying this: My wife is about nine years younger than me. (Let's call it a round nine years for discussion.) Her chart already marks my transits nine years after I was born. But you are then taking (am I understanding this correctly?) her converse transits to my birth moment. Since these are converse transits for an earlier date, the planets are actually for nine years later than her birth (as far in the future from her birth as my birth was earlier). Did I understand that correctly?

The ultimate test, of course, is in tasting the pudding. The logic of this is traceable but seems pretty convoluted. (BTW, what location are you using?)

FWIW, I regard each person's birth as a time-place to which we are relating, whether earlier or later; so each chart is already transits to the other's chart. Similarly, secondary (quotidian) progressions of each chart to the other's moment and place of birth has been a valuable secondary technique, with sometimes stunning aspects and angularities, especially Moon aspects.

[SteveS]

Synastry with two best friends to each other for over 50 years:
My wife’s Moon 09,49 Aqu
Her friend’s Sun 10,13 Aqu
Synastry between my wife with a daughter of her best friend. Rarely do they get around each other, but my wife says when they do-- they have both told each other they feel a strong inner bond to each other.
Wife’s Moon 09,49 Aqu
My wife’s best friend daughter’s Moon 08,50 Taurus
Jim, I am beginning to see/understand more & more what you mean with your research with Moon’s in synastry charts. I wonder why this is so with the Moon? Can you offer some of your words/explanations why this is so?

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, I am beginning to see/understand more & more what you mean with your research with Moon’s in synastry charts. I wonder why this is so with the Moon? Can you offer some of your words/explanations why this is so?

Moon is clearly the most important factor in synastry and, for that matter, in intimate relationships. - That's probably the key idea, intimate, as in intimacy is about Moon. Notice how this compares to other ideas we've discussed, such as the Novien's role in sexuality and intimate relationship.

Moon corresponds to subconsciousness, which isn't just a layer of a single person's brain but, rather, is the interconnecting web that links all life. We're all connected in that deep level of mind (which is the basis of telepathy, among other things). Lunar connection is at that level.

Another (less esoteric sounding) way to look at it is that Moon represents the maternal relationship - it's where we learn to connect preverbally - and all later intimate connection is modelled on that experience.

To put it in simple terms: Almost everything astrologers mean when they speak of Venus being the basis of relationship, it's really Moon. Moon in your chart will tell you more about your pattern for intimate connection, your way of mating, etc. than Venus. (Venus describes pleasure and a need to affiliate or connect, to feel good with other people, but the simpler root connection is through Moon.)

Also, I puzzled for years why, of all the seven ancient planets, Mercury seems the most worthless in a relationship. Sure, Mercury's interchanges are meaningful (and work the way I've described them in the synastry interpretations), but Mercury won't tell you if there is an important relationship (and the most beautiful Mercury-Venus interchange wont lead to pleasant, gracious communication in a fundamentally hostile relationship). Yes, isn't communication the foundation of relationship? Yes it is, but the "communication" that matters isn't data based - it's not Mercurial - it's lunar! It rests on the empathy of actually connecting to a person, not just the exchange of data points. There is nothing intimate about Mercury.

[SteveS]

With what is going on with my wife and her friends now---she will really appreciate your above words. Thanks

[Veronica]

Thank you for those words about Mercury Jim. My last relationship had his Mercury opposite my sun (also aspecting my moon) and being single now I have wondered about this connection and what the difference would be with someone's Mercury square or conjunct my Sun.
But if it's really the moon and intimacy then I suppose it would be more relevant where someone's moon is, and if they aspect my moon/neptune/Jupiter.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "So, if i understand where Marr's is coming from--he is saying using bi-wheels to compare two people natal's the transits of the younger person's natal to the older person natal is much more important than comparing the older person's natal to the younger person's natal?"

No, it relates to the details of the circumstance. One partner will be younger. The younger person's chart is a (direct) transit in the life of the older person. Marr simply had the idea that IF that direct transit has meaning (which obviously it does), then it would have to also have meaning if we look at that transit simply as a converse transit. When we start looking at converse charts, they are more individualized. [If Saturn is at 0° Aries, then everyone on the planet with a planet at 0° Aries/Cancer/Libra/Capricorn will have a transiting square/conj/opp from Saturn. If we're talking converse transits, that "Saturn position" is unique for each person's chart that is examined (since it starts being counted "backwards" from a different point in time for each chart examined). For one person, transiting Saturn might be at 0° Aries, but for the next person, it could be literally anywhere.]

A key point is that it generates a readable chart for the relationship. It's technically not even a synastry, because we are looking at a single chart. I think that was what Marr was looking for...a valid chart that simply describes the relationship between two people.

I got the idea from Marr's Prediction III, where he creates these charts to describe his interactions with friends Vendel Polich, A.P. Nelson Page, and Cyril Fagan. He also looks for instance at these charts for the members of the "Manson family." (Charles Manson, Susan Atkins, L. Van Houten) He also does this for their first victim, Steven Parent.

Since it is a single chart, (Marr) "Analysis has revealed that we do not have to restrict ourselves to this more or less static interpretation of a partner-horoscope, for it is also possible to trace events with the aid of common and prenatal (converse) transits and cycles for these maps. Very effective in the New Partner-Horoscope are also lunar returns and their demi's (if the latter's operational date is nearer to the date of the event.) Impressive lunars of this kind coincide with events which partners experience together, such as first meetings, marriages, accidents, lawsuits, etc. Further, the outcome of contests in all sorts of competitions such as sporting events and presidential elections may be predicted with these lunars." [he then shows examples using Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan]

Of course, if we create a chart by using the converse transits to the older person's chart as a valid chart; it implies that we can also take the time difference between the two and add that to the younger person's chart to get an auxilliary partner-horoscope (as Marr named it).

So... on a timeline... it would look like this...

Partner Horoscope --> (A-(B-A)) --> Juan Peron (A) --> (B-A) --> Evita Peron (B) --> (B+(B-A)) --> Auxilliary Partner Horoscope

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: Prenatal / Converse

Yeah, Marr's choice of terminology was somewhat inconsistent in that area. He certainly means converse transits (/progressions, etc.) [and has nothing to do with prenatal/epoch charts, though you could use those charts similarly for these partner charts]

Re: "But you are then taking (am I understanding this correctly?) her converse transits to my birth moment. Since these are converse transits for an earlier date, the planets are actually for nine years later than her birth (as far in the future from her birth as my birth was earlier). Did I understand that correctly?"

The partner horoscope is as far in the past from the older person as the younger person is from said older person. The auxilliary partner horoscope is as far in the future from the younger person's chart as the older person is from said younger person.

So, in your example (and I'm sure you've already mentally jumped ahead to this), the partner horoscope will be 9 years' time before your chart. The auxilliary partner horoscope will be 9 years' time after her chart.

Re: Location

Marr said to use the location that they first met. Though that seems somehow sound, I have calculated them differently. If I put up the older person's chart (for example) and then pull up the converse transits for the younger person's (exact) chart, I can then use those positions to derive the partner horoscope. This seems more logical TO ME, since it bypasses where they met, or IF they even ever met.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

If I create the "partner horoscope" for Steve/Brock, I get May 3, 1946. 12:50:40 am GMT, 11° 24' 07" E, 48° 08' 24" N.

If we examine this horoscope, we have a Venus-Moon conjunction at the IC, with Pluto at the Descendant. Saturn squares Jupiter and the Sun is square the Ascendant.

When we look at the transits to this chart for Brock's death:

Neptune square Node (mourning through association, dissolving association)
Uranus square Ascendant (sudden change in association)
Uranus conjunct Sun ("liberation," heightened individuality)
Saturn sesquisquare Neptune (illness, reality crashes the dream)
conv Saturn conjunct 11th cusp/powerpoint (end of joint aspirations, separation of a friend)
conv Neptune sesquisquare Midheaven (mourning, emotional drama, the unknown)

There's only one secondary progression to this chart (within my normal orb used) and that is Venus sesquisquare Saturn (0° 7') (remorse, sacrifice, relationship (Venus) meets its end (Saturn))

Solar arc Pluto semisquare Midheaven (redefining turning point, complete paradigm shift) and Neptune sesquisquare Mars (mourning a male, unsure/confused actions, checking out)

Age Harmonic (as always a personal fave ) Saturn square Ascendant (separation), Saturn square Pluto (hardship, isolation)

[SteveS]

Thanks James for the more detailed explanation with Marr's method and using me and my friend's charts for an example. Not sure I could produce these kinds of charts for examination with my chart files without detailed instructions for my computer program Solarfire, but its no big deal to me at my age with my astrological practice---still its food for thought.

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks James for the more detailed explanation with Marr's method and using me and my friend's charts for an example. Not sure I could produce these kinds of charts for examination with my chart files without detailed instructions for my computer program Solarfire, but its no big deal to me at my age with my astrological practice---still its food for thought.

• Select the older person's chart.
• Click the progressions/transits button (Transits, Progressions & Directions) or press F4. Pick Transits. Enter the younger person's birth data.
• At the right, check the Converse button. Click OK.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim. James, I forgot to ask you James: Do you think Marr's/ your methodology could possibly pinpoint in time when a major aspect in one of the synastry charts would fire-off with the other chart, probably not? For example: I know for a fact when a major aspect in my bussiness/friend's chart fired-off in my life--no doubt about it. And this major natal aspect with my business/friend was prominetely featured angular on my synastry with his natal. May not be possible--but if so I would be highly interested in investigating in detail Marr's synastry technology. Thanks

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Here, the partner horoscope (and auxilliary partner horoscope) is (are) a single chart that would be assumed to relate to the relationship/interaction between the two people whose natal charts were used to derive the partner horoscope. If the "event" (or circumstances) affect the relationship, then I'd expect some indication in that (Marr version) composite chart. (assuming Marr's method yields a valid horoscope)

For instance, (using my Wife's and my "partner horoscope"), when we moved to Germany, Jupiter contacts the IC. Pluto conjoins the 9th House cusp/powerpoint.

When Uta's Father died, Saturn contacts Mars, Pluto conjoins Saturn, and Moon conjoins Midheaven (0° 4').

I think it worthy of the time to test these charts out further and see 1) if they appear to give reliable info in the chart itself as relates to the relationship, 2) if virtually all major events (affecting the relationship) are shown using the normally reliable transits, progressions, directions, age harmonics, etc.

[SteveS]

James wrote:

I think it worthy of the time to test these charts out further and see 1) if they appear to give reliable info in the chart itself as relates to the relationship, 2) if virtually all major events (affecting the relationship) are shown using the normally reliable transits, progressions, directions, age harmonics, etc.

I agree James. I wish I had kept a diary of all the important times of major incidents which occurred in my life with all the close relationships in my life. I can see most of the major incidents in my individual life with solunars charts and other important charts, but since close relationships are so important for our lives, it would be interesting if there was a relationships chart that tracked important incidents occurring to both parties of a close relationship. I can see the important aspects in a synastry chart, and it would be very interesting to be able to track with future time when these important synastry aspects would fire-off.

[Jim Eshelman]

First impression... is better than I expected. Maybe a lot better. The chart is tedious to deal with and not quite squarely right, but it's better than I expected.

Where I want a chart like this to succeed is as the equivalent of a "natal" of the relationship. I'm not as interested in forecasting from it as describing the nature of the relationship itself. (Ironically, I'm suspicious of any charts which claim to do exactly that: I'm ambivalent about the idea that the relationship exists as a specific thing, rather than as a "moving target" interaction of multiple forces.)

To get specific, let's start with my converse transits to my wife's birth. I played around with different locations, and the one that is most impressive is my original theoretical expectation her birthplace. (Since this relationship chart is ultimately my converse transits to the event of her birth, that makes lots of sense!) This chart puts Venus exactly on EP-a, 4° conjunct a rising Sun, with Pluto minutes from Descendant: A high-impact, singled-out-from-the-milieu one-in-a-million of an essentially Venus nature. Pretty good! Standing against it is a close Moon-Saturn square that neither she nor I think fit, e.g., there isn't emotional distance or parent-child dynamics. Furthermore, there are partile mundane aspects that about 50-50 on whether descriptive or not fitting. - So, good on first impression, and a little iffy overall.

Events: Start with our wedding, start simply with transits. (Direct transits to a converse transit chart? Seems a little wonky, but, heck, let's go with it.) Transits at our wedding are interesting. Overall they seem to speak of separation, but I think those aspects are better read as decisive, chapter-turning, pivotal. Transiting Pluto squared the chart's Moon 27' and Saturn opposed its Saturn 14' (half Saturn cycle). As I said, these are mostly "chapter-turning" aspects, though they seem a bit harsh. (For the moment, I go with them because of their precision.) There were then appropriate events for the day including transiting Sun square the chart's Venus and Mercury on its Uranus.

Or take the occasion of the original connection that started the romantic relationship: Transiting Venus exactly conjoined the chart's Moon. That is at least the marker of a great date! (Marion has lately be describing it as, "It was supposed to be a one-night stand, but we failed at that.") In the larger picture (we had known each other for many years, so why this particular Venus transit?), transiting Uranus squared the chart's MC partile (cast for her birthplace).

BTW, none of the events checked had any transits to the chart's angles for where we live.

[Jim Eshelman]

My Marr-relationship chart with Anna-Kria - my longest relationship and one of enormous importance - distinguishes itself mostly be a 13' Moon-Pluto square. Again, Pluto is mundanely exactly on horizon, this time within 1° of Ascendant. There are some other intense things that, depending on who you ask, could be thought to be fitting or not fitting. Mostly, it doesn't look like a romantic relationship (which it was) unless you take the mundane Moon-Venus opposition (that is pretty wide - barely considerable - ecliptically).

The start of the relationship - our first connection - has strange transits, the most glaring being transiting Mars conjunct the chart's Neptune. While that can be taken as surrendering to temptation (and similar ideas), it also paints a haunting, threatening tone that just wasn't there. The transit is eye-catching for its precision and could be judged accurate, but that feels a stretch. (It's certainly not clear.) The only long-term partile transit is Uranus to Saturn (not a fit).

Jumping to the hurtful hour that broke us up, there are no partile outer planet transits (and, in fact, no partile transits at all).

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim for this look-see.

[SteveS]

LeiLei, it just occured to me your Natal 7th House Saturn holds a Hindu Vargottama degree which was looked upon as very important by ancient Hindu astrologers.