Novien Synastry

[SteveS]

Jim, show the main points of a Novien Synastry with my cousin Richard, Thanks

Jan 13 1946; 5:00 AM CST; Albertville, Al

[Jim Eshelman]

Starting with the straight natal-to-natal, your Moons are in opposite signs and Richard's Moon is near your Dsc, opposite your Jupiter. His Sun-Mars opposition is right on your Mars (with his Saturn there also). Your Sun-Uranus is close to his Asc, your Mercury-Neptune straddles his MC.

From this alone (being really simple about it), I'd conclude a strong sense of family connection and sharing/overlapping of your psyches, but a relationship based on competition and struggle. I'd think it was boyish challenging each other ("battle buddies" of sort) except the Mars-Saturn interchange is really severe! (Sagittarius Sun opposite Mars-Saturn is in his birth chart, of course: He is severe, controlling, judgmental, etc. and this intersects with your Mars roughly.) He finds you to be very strange and weird but is nonetheless fascinated by it (though probably uncomfortable about it),

I did this part first because we know this part works. (I may have missed details, but I bet I nailed the basic relationship.) If so, then it shows why I don't usually need the Novien for this - but it's still a good way to test.

Moving to Novien-to-Novien aspects (which would be the same if we used the Navamsa). BTW, I'm less persuaded Novien-to-Novien works than I am that Novien-to-Natal works (which drives me crazy), but I''ll list it anyway. His Novien Moon conjoins your Sun, another strong connection. His Venus squares your Saturn, suggesting it's emotionally unpleasant, that you rain on his parade and spoil his fun. His Jupiter 0°01' from conjunct your Uranus is noteworthy for closeness (you can interpret this as well as I: It may tie into his fascination with your strangeness, etc. It could be something economically advantageous and creative between the two of you, though I'm skeptical of that with the number of very rough aspects we've already seen.) As in the natal, his Mars is on your Mars-Jupiter (more of the same). - Oh, and HIS Saturn squares YOUR Venus: It's two-way. It's quite harsh.

I'll move on to what really interests you - the natal-to-Novien aspects - in the next post.

[Jim Eshelman]

Looking at your Novien around Richard's natal:

There aren't many really close aspects. Most importantly, your Novien Mercury-Pluto opposition (33') is exactly on his Novien Moon. Moon-Mercury, of course, is intense communication and exchange of ideas. For Moon-Pluto, I wrote:

Few people outside of this enigmatic relationship understand it. Moon and Pluto are drawn together like moths to a common flame with an edge of danger in the wind. If they form a couple, they march together to their own drummer, defying other people's rules and expectations. In fact, their pairing may serve as a break-away relationship to help them separate from existing conditions and others' control. Despite these few, epic, inscrutable relationships, most Moon-Pluto sexual encounters are one-off hit-and-run events.

I don't know what of this might fit - please tell us. That your Mercury-Pluto is to his Moon suggests that you are challenging, confronting, putting uncomfortable hard facts in front of him, threatening to rewire his way of thinking in some fundamental way.

There are other aspects that probably have an effect but I'm not going to dwell on: His natal Venus square your Novien Neptune 0°08', your Novien Moon 4° from opposite his Neptune.


Switching it around - his Novien to your natal - The first thing that jumps out is his Novien Mars-Uranus straddling your Ascendant and Jupiter. This could be adventurous, but there are so any hard negative connections that my mind goes first to "he cost you a lot of money." His Novien Mercury conjoins your Moon (almost partile), the complement of your Mercury to his Moon. His Venus opposes your Venus (usually a "playmates" aspect). His Sun squares your Pluto 2° (each triggers abrupt changes in the other: unless these are accepted easily, Pluto ends up fleeing the relationship).

[SteveS]

Dead-on Jim with this Synastry. I will get back with life details later. Also with questions.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dead-on Jim with this Synastry. I will get back with life details later. Also with questions.

I'm curious which of the three categories was dead-on accurate: natal-to-natal, Novien-to-Novien, or Novien-to-natal. (Sorting out "what works" is, of course, the basis of your original post.)

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

I'm curious which of the three categories was dead-on accurate: natal-to-natal, Novien-to-Novien, or Novien-to-natal. (Sorting out "what works" is, of course, the basis of your original post.)

Yes, I understand Jim, I want to take some quality time allowing a proper detailed response. Got intermediate distractions happening around me today with a starving flea bitten desperate new stray cat that found me yesterday while I on my daily walk through the woods.

[SteveS]

I want to start here:
Jim wrote:

Looking at your Novien around Richard's natal:
There aren't many really close aspects. Most importantly, your Novien Mercury-Pluto opposition (33') is exactly on his Novien Moon. Moon-Mercury, of course, is intense communication and exchange of ideas. For Moon-Pluto, I wrote:

Few people outside of this enigmatic relationship understand it. Moon and Pluto are drawn together like moths to a common flame with an edge of danger in the wind. If they form a couple, they march together to their own drummer, defying other people's rules and expectations. In fact, their pairing may serve as a break-away relationship to help them separate from existing conditions and others' control. Despite these few, epic, inscrutable relationships, most Moon-Pluto sexual encounters are one-off hit-and-run events.

I don't know what of this might fit - please tell us. That your Mercury-Pluto is to his Moon suggests that you are challenging, confronting, putting uncomfortable hard facts in front of him, threatening to rewire his way of thinking in some fundamental way.

You’re quoted words for Moon-Pluto is very accurate Jim, but I still can't wrap my head around WHY the Moon is so damn important in the Novien Chart, but I trust your judgement with your experience--much more than mine.
As small kids first meeting, Richard & I bonded like peas in a pod, man--we were tight. We ignored all the other kids in the family—we felt special together wanting to be alone to enjoy our special bond. Nothing sexual, only intellectual communication on any subject. All family members recognized this special communication bond between us. This bond lasted till we both went to separate colleges both getting married after college no longer communicating with each other.

Then when we came back together our relationship soon fell apart over someone else money (I will explain later), but this is going to take some explaining with my knowing by my exact life experiences with my 8H. First Jim, you need to know how I know my 9th harmonic chart has worked in my life with other people when it comes to adult business things pertaining to money. When I first ran my 9th harmonic—not too long ago—I began to see things pertaining to my 8th house with much sharper focus. When I first got into Sidereal Astrology I learned about Jupiter-Mars aspects pertaining to money, and I knew the 8H was a big money house pertaining to “other peoples” money. But I never could quite understand how I naturally could figure things out with deep analysis for making lots of money with low risk until I saw that partile Mercury-Pluto 180 connected to the 9th harmonic Jupiter conjunct my Mars in the 8H. It was that Mercury-Pluto aspect connected to my Mars-Jup 8H. To help you understand better, AFAIC it’s this Mercury-Pluto aspect highlighted in my 9th Harmonic that allowed me to see the valuable asset your SMA analysis was for 50 Super Bowls only for a bettor, who knew how to bet certain odds on certain games when they presented themselves, all at very low risk—this I have proven to you on this forum.

But now I want to explain how this worked out with Richard when we came back together in life. In adult age Richard always felt intellectual superior to others around him, but it was only book smarts. He graduated Georgia Tech in the top of his class as an engineer, went to Houston as a top engineer and later decided to go into private business with his wife and busted out big time. It just so happened at this time I had received a tremendous inside tip over a beer and a pin-ball machine one evening, and I made one phone call the next day and was told exactly how to take this inside tip and contact another party (soybean trader on the Chicago Board of Trade) and know exactly how to wait and buy a position in the soybean market and makes lots of $ with very low risk. This position was put on in one minute and the soybean market never traded at a loss on a large position with risk margin. This all has to do with my angular Jupiter-Node contact with fortunate connections in life, but more so with my 9th harmonic Mercury-Pluto easily visually seen by me for the first time when I looked at my 9 harmonic chart. Hell Yes—this made me realize why the Hindu Astrologers considered the Navamsa Chart a superior chart—but I be damn I can find any books that explain to my satisfaction. But, when I take Sidereal Astrology and combine its aspect principles to the 9th Harmonic---I clearly see how my Natal Chart combined with my 9th harmonic exactly explains the special mental powers gifted to me with that 9th Harmonic Mercury--Pluto, it allows me laser focus on money things. It just happen that Richard had busted out so here I come to his economic rescue with my inside tip. More later

[Jim Eshelman]

The Mercury-Pluto + Mars-Jupiter in your Novien or Navamsa is indeed quite powerful and important. I think there are only two things I disagree with above: The most important is your plotting Navamsa positions against natal houses. (Of course, Hindu astrologers might to this - though examples aren't common - but they use houses pretty cavalierly.) I think it's a very questionable thing to try and, in any case, isn't needed here since Jupiter is involved anyway.

The other point is your using the Navamsa (what you called simply the 9th harmonic: the 9th harmonic measured from 0° Aries IS the Navamsa). The Novien positions are 120° (a trine) later and, in your case, provide a stunningly powerful combination. (I've added the Node because I know it will interest you.)

27°22' Lib - Novien Jupiter
27°55' Lib - r Asc
28°30' Lib - Novien Mars
29°42' Lib - r Jupiter
1°10' Tau - r Node
1°31' Sco - Novien Mercury
2°04' Tau - Novien Pluto

[SteveS]

Yes Jim, I see/understand where you are coming from, but no way I am taking my 8H planets out of the Navamsa (9th harmonic) picture and moving it to the 1H in the Noviem for more symbolic importance in my life. I have not seen enough evidence for me to do this yet, based on how 8H symbolism has dominated my life much more than any other House symbolism. But I will certainly look more closely at your feelings with Noviem chart/methods. I hope you can understand where I am coming from. If I switch from 8H to 1H with Navamsa to Novien I lose all the big "money" symbolism with "other people." Like I have said, I don't believe no one else can truly understand where I am coming from without living my life, understanding the 8H details which have been surreal for my life.

[Jim Eshelman]

but no way I am taking my 8H planets out of the Navamsa (9th harmonic) picture and moving it to the 1H in the Noviem for more symbolic importance in my life.

I'm saying that to put Navamsa or Novien planets in ANY natal house is exactly the kind of schematic thing Cyril Fagan spent his entire career arguing against.

I get that anything ringing of 8H is important to you. I'm saying I can think of no basis for regarding this as a valid astrological perspective.

You said the synastry analysis based on the Novien was "dead-on," then abandoned it for the Navamsa on the above basis?

I hope you can understand where I am coming from. If I switch from 8H to 1H with Navamsa to Novien I lose all the big "money" symbolism with "other people."

LOL, I'm not asking you to switch to 1H symbolism. I'm asking you to abandon the entire idea that Navamsa or Novien positions have ANY house relevance in the natal at all.

How about this as a compromise: Setting the Noviens aside, the most striking aspect in your chart with your cousin is his Sun-Mars-Saturn opposition atop your 8th house Mars. Just from the natal - no Noviens or Navamsas involved - you get the most malefic aspect between the charts landing on your 8H Mars.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

LOL, I'm not asking you to switch to 1H symbolism. I'm asking you to abandon the entire idea that Navamsa or Novien positions have ANY house relevance in the natal at all.

No way I can do this Jim based on my 8H symbolism. If I can’t use my own life for priority considerations with my work in astrology, I am not being true to my individual self for knowing/understanding myself and the WHYS in my life.
Jim wrote:

You said the synastry analysis based on the Novien was "dead-on," then abandoned it for the Navamsa on the above basis?

Yes, what you wrote was dead-on with Novien Moon-Richard—Pluto (Me). I am not going to abandoned looking at the Novien Chart. I am going to look at it with as open mind as I can, but I have got to have more time to study/consider other charts, remember I am just beginning. Jim, you know I have too much respect for you as a Sidereal Astrologer to shut you out with your Novien work. I still trying to understand things with the Novien Chart to form my own conclusion. I can’t hold a candle to you as a research astrologer, but I can hold a candle to my own life, and again my 8H symbolism blows my candle out in a mind blowing manner. I know how Fagan felt about House symbolism and you know how much I respect his work, but I can’t disrespect the 8H symbolism in my life.
Jim wrote:
How about this as a compromise: Setting the Noviens aside, the most striking aspect in your chart with your cousin is his Sun-Mars-Saturn opposition atop your 8th house Mars. Just from the natal - no Noviens or Navamsas involved - you get the most malefic aspect between the charts landing on your 8H Mars.
Exactly Jim!!! We are definitely on the same page here. And I will later explain the exact same reason I broke off my relationship with him. In fact, most everyone else in Richard’s life has broken off their relationship with him. We can see this with his Natal 7th house alone with his Mars & Saturn placed there. But I will explain that it was a major 8H issue that broke our relationship up. 8H issues have broken-up other major business relationships in my life. Mars is the lessor malefic and it has definitely caused most of the emotional pain in my life over major money issues, definitely 8H symbolism. Let’s continue this thread. I want to probe and do my best to learn and possibly understand Fagan’s Novien work. Maybe it works best in synastry and since I don’t have a lot of study with synastry….

[SteveS]

Jim, unexpected company has pop in so I will be out of touch for a few days, but I want to get back to this thread for much more discussion with close people in my life.