C-Section chart selection

[Freya]

Hi All, it's been a while, I have been struggling a lot since my last miscarriage but a lot has happened and I have had a change of luck. I got pregnant at the end of March with twin girls!!! maybe it's not a coincidence as I am a gemini?? I still cannot believe that the prengnancy has gone so smoothly, and it is now timw to choose when the twins are born. It is a little out of my depth I must admit, and I would be grateful if I could have your imput as I will have the discussion with my OBGYN on the 10th of November. They would like me to deliver the twins between wee 37th and 38th of my pregnancy, which is as follows

Week 37 - Nov 16th to Nov 22nd

Week 38- Nov 23rd to Nov 29th

The first thing that is quite obvious is that I have a window of two days to choose between Libra and Scorpio sun sign. Anything from the 18th onwards would give a lot of scorpio to the chart, which could lead to more inner turmoil than someone born under Libra, but I am also not sure that this is correct and may be a broad generalisation. I haven't had any personal relationships with scorpios so I don't know. Then there's the aspects; there's a Mars-Neptune conjuction as well as a mars-Saturn trine on the 16th which is not there on the 22nd of November.

I have returned to Italy to give birth as I found the care in the UK substandard so the twins will be born in Florence, Italy (most likely in the morning as it is a planned C-section, so I have put 10 am as an indicative time)

I have foolishly updated my computer and have lost access to the astrology software I was running in the old version of the operating system as it is no longer compatible, and I find myself stuck using astro . com for charts!

This is really too important a task to leave it just to my own interpretation skills, and I would be so grateful if someone else can have a look as well.

THANK YOU!!

[Jim Eshelman]

First of all - congratulations! I'd been worried a bit about you when we hadn't heard in so long and I'm happy as can be that you were preoccupied with such a lovely thing.

Second, I don't think your generalization on Libra vs. Scorpio is true at all. If anything, Libra on average has more inner turmoil. The people AROUND them may like the outer sweetness of Libra better than the rambunctious Scorpio but, in general, Scorpios are happier because they do what they please with honest enthusiasm instead of preoccupy themselves with other people's ideas of what they should do. - But even this is too general. -- You might want to read the site's descriptions of Sun in Libra vs. Sun in Scorpio, beginning here: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p161

Third, I'm happy to give some opinions. At the same time, you shouldn't worry if anything goes wrong or shifts the outcome you pick. Nature has its own ideas about these things. We're dealing with the map of someone's entire life, an expression of the in-coming soul's opportunity to express themselves this time around. It would seem too big a responsibility for me to decide for anyone - EXCEPT I know that know the universe likely will overrule my ideal for its own actuality, I think the most we can do is focus on what will give the best chance for the child to be healthy and thrive, and perhaps that its chart have the best fit to yours (though even this might be presumptuous, since this particular being might need struggle with you to mature into what it's supposed to be). We can also focus on YOU having the best experience of becoming a mother.

I'll take a look and get back. Today, I'm still travelling (and we're checking out of our hotel in about an hour, then spending a last day bouncing around town before flying home late tonight). I may get to it soon or not until tomorrow. Others may have their own ideas to share with you.

Again... congratulations!

[Jim Eshelman]

For the window November 16-29, 2022.

First impression: We should look at dates no sooner than November 21 when you have your new lunar return. Your prior Demi-SLR has Saturn exactly rising. This isn't entirely inappropriate - it will be an ordeal, and Saturn is neither unusually common or uncommon for birth - but no reason to tempt fate. In contrast, your November 21 SLR has Jupiter exactly setting. Everything is much more likely to go more smoothly without complication. This makes the astrology easier - cuts the time frame in about half - by starting on the 21st.

As for transits to your chart within that time, the main new transit is Sun square your Ascendant November 25-26. This will make it an unusually important day for you and you will tend to see your daughters more as shining lights and splendid, brilliant creatures as they grow up. While I would think they would be happier having Sun and Moon in the same sign rather than one sign apart (adjacent luminary signs have a bit more inner adaptation to accomplish), given your Gemini-Virgo chart I suspect their Moon would fall in Sagittarius despite my best efforts otherwise .

The one severe aspect of the period is the Mars-Neptune square. You won't get away from it - Mars is slow and the aspect persists for many days. It's exact about the 21st, so it weakens as you move past the 21st. I've lived life with this square close in my nativity, and records show it doesn't deserve its extremely bad reputation, so don't be fearful that this aspect WILL be in their charts. (You will have your hands full with Scorpio twins with a close Mars-Neptune, because they will gloriously misbehave - but they will have a measure of genius and power from it all.)

Steve's idea of optimizing the Mercury-Venus conjunction is splendid (and overcomes some of the cantankerousness, gives social skills, usually gives a lovely childhood). This is closest at the very beginning, close to the 21st. I'd advise against letting these two planets reach Mars-Neptune, perhaps staying earlier than the 28th.

The Moon sign and possibility of aspects will determine a lot, but starts to get into micro-managing. The Moon range is from Libra to Aquarius. Every Moon-sign has its strengths and weaknesses. The one thing that jumps out to me is that Moon in late Capricorn would aspect Saturn-Uranus, which might be rough. (I'd avoid that in my planning.) Moon in LATE Scorpio (or even very early Sag) is involved in Mars-Neptune, so avoid Nov 25.

Myu current favorite chart for a mid-morning birth (using Moon aspects to choose) is November 24. This Moon-Mercury-Venus conjunction would give a lovely disposition, with a setup to have progressed Moon hit Mercury-Venus a few months after birth: A nice confirmation that everything will have gone well. It's also the day of the Jupiter station.

So, unless I see something else later (and understanding that we can't control the time, and therefore not the angles or mundane aspects), I vote for November 24.

[SteveS]

Hi Freya, first, congratulation for you pregnancy, and twin girls. We all know the struggles you went through trying to get pregnant a few years ago.

As long as your OBGYN approves this timing frame I am going to offer for your consideration as a benefic time for YOU to experience the birth of your twins, IMO:

No doubt in my mind you need to strongly consider the 38th week from Nov 23 –Nov 29. Below is a link to your Nov 21 Sidereal Lunar Return (SLR) which covers a 27 day time frame from Nov 21. Your SLR Jupiter is partile conjunct (Eclipto & Mundo) your SLR DSC!!! Also there is a SLR partile conjunction of Mercury & Venus partile octile your Moon!!!

As far as a good day for the birth of your girls: Nov 24 there is still a partile conjunction of Mercury & Venus in the heavens, but this time, this conjunction is partile conjunct your Natal Uranus. I can’t image much better exciting symbolism for you on a day for the birth of your girls. This would also mean both you and your girls would be born with this partile conjunction of Mercury-Venus, a most excellent partile conjunction no matter where in their charts on the wheel.

Jim will look further into other layered charts for this 38th week for delivery and other timing factors with his astro experience.

Nov 21 SLR:
https://ibb.co/qD9PMLk

[Jim Eshelman]

Regarding software: Was this Solar Fire that stopped working? I know some people insist that SF doesn't work on Windows 10 or 11, but I've had zero difficulty with it. Perhaps we can help you troubleshoot.

Meanwhile, for a different software approach with wonderful capabilities, I suggest you try Mike Nelson's free TMSA program, which you can download here: https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=6076

[Jim Eshelman]

Confirmation of how this year will be remembered by you: Here are your solar arc directions of the week of birth:

2 12' Leo - d Venus
2 16 Tau - r MC
2 31' Sco - d Moon

I suspect we mentioned this in the past? It seems like the kind of thing one of us would have mentioned looking forward for you; but perhaps not.

This was your year, the year that your natal exact Moon-Venus square - the great drive to maternity in your chart - would come to fruition.

[Freya]

Thank you so much for indicating a date for me Jim and Steve. I defiitely have noticed saturn in this lunar return, it's the hardest month so far and I have had mild food poisoning which has landed me in hospital overnight upon my arrival to Florence.

Jim you did say to me that late 2022 would have been successful, so I planned this pregnancy around that. I had embryos frozen in 2020 but only transferred them in March 2022 to coincide with what you said and it worked. It was my last attempt!

The chart of the 24th looks powerful with Uranus and pluto on the angles, and unfortunately an aspect between mars and saturn, which I have partile square in my chart, but the twins will have as a trine, which probably doesn't really matter if square or trine as it's there.

Eliminating week 37 makes things easier, and my gut feeling is that the doc wouldn't want to let me go too far into week 38. I will definitely not let it go as far as the 28th if it gives them a better chart the days before. Just going by my gut instinct I had picked the 22nd, just because 11-22-22 seemed like a cool birthdate but the 24th seems to be better than that at lessiening some of the harsher aspects. I hope they will be able to accommodate that day.

Thank you so much guys for looking into this and for your advice at this moment. I really appreciate it and it means a lot

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Confirmation of how this year will be remembered by you: Here are your solar arc directions of the week of birth:
2 12' Leo - d Venus
2 16 Tau - r MC
2 31' Sco - d Moon
I suspect we mentioned this in the past? It seems like the kind of thing one of us would have mentioned looking forward for you; but perhaps not.
This was your year, the year that your natal exact Moon-Venus square - the great drive to maternity in your chart - would come to fruition.

Jim, this is a great observation! I am 75 and can look back and easily see the most important event in my entire life was timed by Solar Arc Directions, and Freya, this birthing event for your girls will obviously be a great/greatest event in your life. I so wish I had in English all the Solar Arc writings by the German Schools of Astrology, for I feel they knew more about the truer history of Solar Arcs. Indeed, just as it is stated in the Bible: 'Timing is Everything" and certain Solar Arcs are very important for timing great events for our life. We clearly see in Freya's Natal Chart probably the most important aspect in her Natal--Moon partile 90 Venus, and when this aspect was directed to her Natal Angle (MC)--an "outstanding incident" is soon to be timed for her life. Thanks for sharring Freya this event in your life--for it is a great teaching lesson for Solar Arcs.

[Jim Eshelman]

The chart of the 24th looks powerful with Uranus and pluto on the angles, and unfortunately an aspect between mars and saturn, which I have partile square in my chart, but the twins will have as a trine, which probably doesn't really matter if square or trine as it's there.

This aspect couldn't be avoided given other, more important things (like keeping it in the last week after your SLR). Because it's a trine, it's less demanding of expression, less insistent and 'pushy.'

Mars is easily the worst planet in the chart, which might be felt especially by a Scorpio. It couldn't be helped, though: We don't worry about things that can't be avoided. They will need guidance on such things as how to use/assert their strength and aggressions, how to cleanly and appropriately express anger, how to acknowledge their rampant sexuality responsibly, and more - just knowing that these things are this important will help make your parenting easier.

By saying Mars is the worst planet, I mean it will be closely aspecting two malefics AND in the sign of its detriment. None of these factors is an outright problem, though together they can show confusion and misdirection of Mars (hence my suggestion that clear, healthy guidance on Mars issues). Mars in Taurus, though its detriment, has some wonderful traits, summarized here: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... p=115#p116

Mars square Neptune themes are complex and powerful. I think of it as my own worst aspect (I had a 0°08' mundane square at birth), though (to be fully honest) it's also one of my best. One has to learn to deal with the tough side of it. There are also enormous creative and success sides of it. I summarize it here: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=182#p1230

Mars trine Saturn is a pair you know very well for yourself. That they have the trine softens it (perhaps suggests that your own experience makes the way easier for them). The biggest risk when young is that they won't learn to express anger and aggression cleanly, will think they have to be covert about it or hold it in. This creates problems. A healthy balance of expressing these things, while having respect for others and their rights, will set them up well. (That they are twins may help in this: Always someone they love that they can be asked to respect.) If they are trained to hold things in or deny basic energy impulses, it will lead to those same things erupting volcanically (and in less healthy expressions) later on. Here is my summary of Mars-Saturn, though you probably know it well: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=182#p1228

The Mercury-Venus conjunction (especially if Moon conjoins them) will give charm and social integration that will smooth the other rough edges. With this and several other things, I suspect they will have beautiful singing voices.

Again, even with all of this planning, the great mystery that remains is: What time will it all happen? How close or far apart will their charts be? What angular planets and mundane aspects will they have? Here's where you have a chance to be surprised and find a little mystery and miracle in them that all the planet doesn't anticipate. In the worst case, they will be alive and beginning to unfold their (probably brilliant) lives into the world: By giving birth to them, you set that all in motion. They are their own thing - with their own ways and priorities and needs - and you'll have the job of equipping them as best you can for whatever they will be born to do.

PS - Just avoid November 25, okay?

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

What time will it all happen? How close or far apart will their charts be? What angular planets and mundane aspects will they have?

This is a key Freya, keep us informed and Jim will offer his take.

[Freya]

PS - Just avoid November 25, okay?

Thank you so much Jim this is enlightening and much more than I could have glimpsed for myself. I just want to be prepared with alternative dates to the 24th in case the can't fit me in. I will definitely avoid the 25th and 28th... amongst the less desireable dates, are any of these dates better than the others?
21st, 22nd 23rd, and 26th and 27th

THANK YOU

[Jim Eshelman]

I just want to be prepared with alternative dates to the 24th in case the can't fit me in. I will definitely avoid the 25th and 28th... amongst the less desirable dates, are any of these dates better than the others?
21st, 22nd 23rd, and 26th and 27th

Presuming mid-morning - sometime within a couple of hours of 10 AM - I don't like the 21st with Moon square Pluto. In fact, I think you need to get completely clear of Libra Moon to avoid Moon in hard aspect with Saturn or Pluto (and because a Rim Moon is more likely to have a troublesome, unhappy life, so far as broad generalizations go).

Therefore, I wouldn't recommend 21, 22, or 23.

On the other side, Nov 26-27 has no red flags that I see (the Mars-Saturn trine is partile, but you're going to have it close anyway). Of the two, the 26th is slightly better IMHO because the 27th has a close Moon-Neptune sextile.

[Freya]

Full term for this pregnancy would be on December 7th, however nothing about this pregnancy has been left to chance. I left the embryos frozen for two years to follow Jim’s solar arc calculations which have proven to have worked brilliantly. After multiple miscarriages and failed attempts, I was willing to wait to give my last attempt the best chance.

I really don’t want an emergency c-section by leaving it up to nature, but of course no one can plan the unexpected.

I feel that if we have been given the knowledge to somehow alter or improve on a potential birthday then there must be a reason for it, and it should be used. If it’s not meant to be things will happen as destiny has planned.

Jim - Steve I am ever so grateful for the insight you have provided me during the years, especially around this life challenge.

I see that the only date is still the 24th as the 26-27th fall on a weekend and it’s unlikely that a planned c section will be scheduled then. Monday is definitely a no as it’s the 28th and I presume the 29th is no good either?

If everything goes well but the 24th isn’t available I can see if I can plan the c-section at the beginning of week 39- between Nov 30th and Dec 2nd…. Are any of these dates any better?

[SteveS]

Freya wrote:

I feel that if we have been given the knowledge to somehow alter or improve on a potential birthday then there must be a reason for it, and it should be used. If it’s not meant to be things will happen as destiny has planned.

Exactly my sentiments Freya. Because I am a Sidereal Astrologer and have proven to myself partile aspects “reign supreme” no matter where on the Wheel they are placed, I would plan as best as possible to get a benefic partile aspect on a specific delivery date as a Mother for her Daughters. The partile aspect we are looking at is a conjunction of Mercury-Venus and Ebertin’s COSI “Principle” for Mercury-Venus is:

A sense and appreciation for beauty, thoughts of love.

I definitely would want to plan as best as possible for my children to be souled with this partile Mercury-Venus spirit (“thoughts of love”) as much as possible, because I am a big believer that Love conquers much. Freya can only try to do her best with her thoughts and beleifs with her studies of astrology. I would do the same for my wife if she was trying to plan a delivery DAY given a possible choice for a specific delivery DAY. But I most certainly understand where Freya is coming from about "destiny" planning things.

[Veronica]

Congratulations Freya, what wonderful news!! I am so happy to hear of your success. I hope carrying twins hasn't been to hard on you and I hope you are able to rest now and enjoy the Beautifulness of pregnancy. You are going to be a wonderful mother.
After following your journey to get to this point the only perspective I can offer is to stick to your guns about doing what you feel is the very best for you and to continue to be guided by your loving heart. Trust your instincts.
rest up as much as you can now because when ever your ladies arrive you will be busy busy busy!!
Congratulations again and thank you for sharing your journey with us.

[SteveS]

If we astrologers can't use our knowledge of astrology to plan/see the benefic or malefic times, what use is it for us as a knowledge?

[Jim Eshelman]

I agree with Danica in principle (as mentioned in my first post on this thread). Planning someone's entire incarnation is far too arrogant.

I'm willing to do it only because I know the universe will overthrow and sabotage me if I make the wrong choice (and the terribly important TIME of birth is completely out of our control).

[SteveS]

Freya, with Both Jim & I choosing the 24th for the c-section, I don't understand why there is a problem for scheduling the delivery for the 24th? When will you know if Italy's health system will OK the 24th for delivery???

[Freya]

On Nov 10th when I have my next visit to discuss the surgery, at which point if my surgeon isn’t available on the 24th I would have to suggest alternative dates…

[SteveS]

Got it Freya, my sister-in-law was able to schedule her c-section on the date she chose but astrology aspects were not involved.

[Freya]

I am guessing that from Nov 29th to December 2nd the aspects are not as favourable as the 24th?

[SteveS]

I am guessing that from Nov 29th to December 2nd the aspects are not as favourable as the 24th?

I have not looked. I quickly saw the very benefic SLR Nov 21 and you would have a partile Mercury-Venus conjunction partile conjunct your varagotta (kinda like an exaulted) rx Uranus on the 24th. I thought this would be a very cool synastry aspect to have for a Mother with her Daughters throughout life, but it is not a deal breaker. Everything will be fine Freya with your benefic SLR encompassing the delivery for your daughters. Relax and enjoy Freya reaching the main objective of your life---having children.

[Jim Eshelman]

I am guessing that from Nov 29th to December 2nd the aspects are not as favourable as the 24th?

I'll try to look this morning. - It's a lot of work (pretty much starting the assessment of your chart all over again), but I know it's important to you.

[Jim Eshelman]

I am guessing that from Nov 29th to December 2nd the aspects are not as favourable as the 24th?

There are two types of consideration: One is the best conditions for you to give birth; the other is the best conditions for the twins' birth charts.

Starting with best conditions for you: The immediate aftermath of your Jupiter-dominant lunar return as the best general time, though the chart is technically effective for its entire term (especially the first two weeks). By December 2, Moon is in Pisces so you are a day or so short of your Demi-SLR - so we need to check that, at least for "immediate aftermath" effects.

I'm not completely comfortable with your December 3 Demi-SLR (8:42 PM in Firenze). It's not all that bad, but it's less predictable. The main feature is Pluto within 1° of Descendant. It then moderately has natal Venus and Mercury foreground. The Pluto means something of high impact which, of course, the births will be, and the foreground aspects lean your way: Transiting Jupiter (weakly foreground) squares natal Sun-Venus mundanely (plus Pluto opposite your Mercury).

For my own sense of comfort, I would rather see this chart as a follow-up chart a week or so after you've given birth and are settling into your new role as mother. It's not terrible for giving birth and has some fine aspects. I'm simply being a little gun-shy about putting an immediate aftermath instability of conditions that near a birth. (OTOH if that's the way things go, don't stress about it. My warning is more like suggesting someone buckle their seatbelt despite the fact that they probably won't have an accident: You do it just to be prudent.)

Sun conjoins your Uranus on the 2nd. Not a bad aspect for birth, and as synastry it suggests your life with them would be a continuous adventure of discovery and interesting things.

Turning my attention now to the possible birth charts themselves. Mostly we can filter these out by Moon sign and aspects.

Don't go with the 29th: It's the Rim Moon problem running into hard aspects, in this case a nearly exact Moon-Saturn conjunction in Capricorn (tied into the exact Mars-Saturn trine). This is a possible setup for health problems, higher risks, alienation from mother, loss of nurturing in formative environment, and various problems later. Wonderful, effective people have this aspect, but their effectiveness is more in spite of it. It's pretty high on the list of aspects to avoid.

Nov 30 brings Moon into Aquarius - a Scorpio-Aquarius chart can be pretty exciting with remarkable abilities.

December 1 is more of a problem. Moon remains in Aquarius and, midmorning, is exactly square Mars. This implicates it in the Mars-Neptune square (which is wider by now, but still a main feature in the sky for this entire period). My main concern with Moon anywhere in this range is that the twins' progressions would involve Moon-Mars and Moon-Neptune aspects in their earliest months, which are high risk of unpleasant experiences including health risks. No need to risk those. Also, Venus-Mercury are now square Neptune and I have a personal bias against Mercury-Neptune squares: I've seen some highly undesirable behavior in most of these. Dec 1 has a number of problems, therefore.

For Dec 2, Moon is in Pisces and in moderate separating conjunction with Jupiter. It's better than then Dec 1 but does have the exact Mercury-Neptune conjunction. In fact, the aspect cluster of Mars (24° Taurus), Venus (25° Scorpio), Neptune (28° Aquarius), and Mercury (29° Scorpio) is quite complex: It's not necessarily bad, and in an adult I might find it charmingly perverse and creative. I think it wouldn't be kind in childhood, but there are no immediate harsh progressions, and a Scorpio-Pisces with this could be a most interesting adult: Whether socially well-adapted or not would depend on the exact time of birth, among other things.

So, if you have to pick from these days, November 30 is probably the best with December 1 an adequate fallback. Mostly, just avoid the 29th.

[Jim Eshelman]

BTW, some thoughts on the Mars-Saturn trine:

I think this is most likely to manifest in connection to the absence of the father's involvement in their lives. (This is what you said would happen, yes?) There will be consequent obedience issues that will be challenging to you as the parent. To say this differently, none of these charts (nothing in this range) likely will produce obedient, docile children: They will be strong-willed and (unless something quirky contradicts this from the final TIME of birth) likely energetic and dynamic. They will very much have minds of their own and insist on exploring and discovering, to breaking something to see how it works, and biting hard on the bit to get on to the stage of maturation where they can make their own bold decisions. I consider all of these to be excellent traits in an adult, and in children moving toward adulthood, though it makes the parent's job more challenging.

Were this a Mars-Saturn hard aspect, Mars-Saturn could be more overt struggle. The trine and sextile are more characterized by fixity, suppressing energy, so with Mars-Saturn it is more a matter of being stubborn and uncooperative, in feeling that their hands are tied. Such people sometimes become cagier, less direct.

With this entire range of possible birth dates, I've already mentioned that they need to learn from the start how to cleanly, openly, honestly express upset and even rage so that it doesn't bottle up. Clean communication about their feelings is important. This, of course, requires the same kind of open, free honesty in these matters from you, since they will learn from your example as well as your guidance. Your job will be to keep them safe so that their adventurous boldness, but they also will need a lot of freedom and self-determination (consistent with age and level of development).

So, the exact form of discipline, control, boundary-defining, etc. will be one of the most important things for you to settle in your own mind ahead of time. These will be energetic, willful, adventurous, probably highly creative girls.

The closer the Mercury-Neptune gets to exact, the more the Mars-Saturn stubbornness etc. will incorporate dishonesty and deception to get around you. That's one of my discomforts about the aspect: Dishonesty with themselves and others.

This doesn't mean I think these are bad charts. I'm looking for pitfalls or potholes for which you can prepare. Overall, I think these are likely charming children who will grow into interesting, creative adults.

[Freya]

Jim I am so grateful that you took another look at the charts, especially the twins’ as I now understand how the mars saturn mercury and neptune interplay can affect their lives. I can totally see happen what you describe. The 24th is still the best date and I will do everything I can to get a c-section then, they schedule them in the morning so hopefully you also got the birth time right, however it is avoiding the saturn trine and neptune mars partile that is now my main concern, to give them the best start in life.
Again you looking into this meant so much to me….THANK YOU

[SteveS]

Freya, I think the birth of your twins (daughters) with a C-section is most unique for astrologers to look at their charts. If the first breath of a new born constitutes the actual timed birth, I am guessing your daughters will be born within a minute for the same time. Do you know how their times of birth will officially be recorded by the surgery team?

[Freya]

That’s a very good question Steve, I don’t know and I need to ask my OBGYN. I would like to wear a watch if I am alllowed buy I doubt it

[Freya]

That’s a very good question Steve, I don’t know and I need to ask my OBGYN. I would like to wear a watch if I am alllowed buy I doubt it

I have just been told by my cousin who had a c-section that there’s a clock in the operating theatre which also tells how long the op lasted. Still, I will ask the question just to make sure

[SteveS]

Freya, I just called my sister-in-law and asked her if she remembers how/when the operating team recorded the birth of her daughter by C-section and she said all she thinks she remenbers is they took her daughter and cleared the air passages for her daughter to take her first breath. My sister-in law knows a nurse who was on the operating team and she is going to try and make contact to find out more details how/when the offical birth time is recorded. Keep us informed after you meet with your OBGYN on Nov 10.

[Jim Eshelman]

This may be different in Italy. - I am told that in the U.S., hospitals usually have someone in the room assigned to note and record the birth moment (first breath).

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

This may be different in Italy.

Indeed. I hope Freya will be able to find out the exact details and realize how/when the recorded birth times are recorded.

[Jim Eshelman]

I can't find anything on file for Florence, but actress Rose McGowan was born in Certaldo in 1973 with AA recorded time 10:38 PM. Singer Giuliana De Sio was born in Salerno in 1957 with AA time recorded as 7:30 PM. Luciano Pavarotti was born in Moderna with AA recorded time 1:40 AM. Sophia Loren, born in Romi 1934, has a recorded time of 2:10 PM. Similar for Giorgio Armani (1934), etc.

Ah, here we go: Oriana Fallaci was born in Firenze (Florence) in 1929 and has a recorded birth time of 11:00 PM. That one is a round hour, but it does look like Italy has been keeping track of this stuff for a long time. Before 1930, most are round hours but Marconi (Bologna) is given as 9L15 AM.

[SteveS]

When we consider a birth of twins by C-section, I assume the birth times will be officially recorded as very close to the same time, but we really don’t know the birthing timing process for twins by C-section. How would we Siderealist who primarily use return charts for determining how a native responds/reacts psychologically to their immediate environments view twins with the same birth time? In other words, until the twins move to different locations-- both of Freya’s daughters will have the same return charts. So, theoretically this means the twins experience the same psychological correspondences with their return charts for much of their early life. I have never really thought about this unique astrological return chart situation before. I was wondering if Bradley or Fagan ever wrote anything about timed births for twins.

[Veronica]

My sister in law had twins via c section, and what she told me was that after the incision to access the womb they "birthed" one baby first, cutting the umbilical cord and clearing the lungs for the first breath, and then the second baby was birthed. It was very quick but there was still a difference in the time of thier first breath of life.

[Jim Eshelman]

When we consider a birth of twins by C-section, I assume the birth times will be officially recorded as very close to the same time, but we really don’t know the birthing timing process for twins by C-section. How would we Siderealist who primarily use return charts for determining how a native responds/reacts psychologically to their immediate environments view twins with the same birth time? In other words, until the twins move to different locations-- both of Freya’s daughters will have the same return charts. So, theoretically this means the twins experience the same psychological correspondences with their return charts for much of their early life. I have never really thought about this unique astrological return chart situation before. I was wondering if Bradley or Fagan ever wrote anything about timed births for twins.

Ah, the eternal twins problem for astrologers .

The first thing to know that psychologists who have made special studies of twins affirm that there are unusually great similarities even when outwardly it seems there are fewer. There WILL be similarities.

Second, the chart they more or less share will detect whether these are two people whose character is more aligned with looking like each other - angular Venus will do this - or more aligned with looking different. Angular Mars creates greater sibling rivalry even among twins. Uranus and Pluto angular shows more of a need to be unique or unbeholden to others' expectations, and so on - just like non-twins.

Third, at least some evidence supports the idea that birth rank appliers to twins as much as to other children. Characterologically there will be a first child and a second child, with minor differences arising from this.

Fourth, yes, their returns will be nearly identical. The identical part means they will have similar events and responses - which makes a lot of sense (because they will have much in common). But the nearly part of that phrase means that there will be some differences. Something that becomes increasingly obvious every year is that orbs make a difference. The more I integrate the feeling of exact orbs into my cells, the easier it is to understand the subtleties of return charts. Consider just the one case where they both have difficult lunar returns but one has a benefic less than 0°05' from an angle and the other has it within 1° of an angle. I assure you that the first will have the benefic totally overwhelm the malefics, while the second will have some amelioration of the malefics. There will be a palpable difference.

Fifth, there are other prediction methods than return charts. With even a few minutes of difference in birth time, solar arcs of/to angles will occur months apart. Nonlunar secondary progressions may occur months or years apart. Transits to angles may occur weeks or months apart. Each time one of these occurs, the child with the aspect will have the aspect at a different time, in a different context, meaning that she will build a different sequence of life experiences than her sister. These small differences eventually string together to weave a different individual adult.

Most of the time during their childhood, they will get sick together, go to Disneyland together, go to fun parties together, move to a new home together, even bruise their knees together, so it makes sense that their charts will time most things at the same times as long as they are in the same place. But there will be differences.

[SteveS]

Excellent points Jim, this helps a-lot, thanks.

[Freya]

My c-section has been booked for the 24th!!! It was the only slot left. They can’t guarantee the time, but it will be in the morning. Now my body has to make it until then, as the babies are very heavy

[SteveS]

My c-section has been booked for the 24th!!! It was the only slot left.

Fate/Destiny!!!! Can’t wait for Jim to do the synastry with you and your daughters.

[Jim Eshelman]

Wonderful how that's lining up! And, of course, the babies still may make their own decision before then.

[Freya]

I have had a spike in blood pressure and I am currently in hospital due to stay overnight for monitoring. If it’s pre-eclampsia then the c-section will be tomorrow or the next day. If it’s not I will be sent home with some blood pressure meds and the scheduled date of the 24th. I guess tomorrow will give a bad chart with moon-pluto?

[Jim Eshelman]

"Bad chart" is too dime. There is nothing inherently wrong with Moon-Pluto in terms of character etc. It does, however, often show as alienation from the mother or something similar, and I thought it better to avoid that.

It will be as it will be. You're bringing them into the world and they will have their own destiny. You are doing what you can to make it thr best life (though not all souls benefit most from a "best life," some require loss and struggle; and we're all shaped by these things anyway).

Keep us posted.

[Freya]

I have been scheduled a c-section tomorrow morning as I am showing signs of kidney damage. Really disappointed about not making it to the 24th, I have moon-pluto and it has been really tough on me. Really not looking forward to this at all

[Jim Eshelman]

I have been scheduled a c-section tomorrow morning as I am showing signs of kidney damage. Really disappointed about not making it to the 24th, I have moon-pluto and it has been really tough on me. Really not looking forward to this at all

We knew from the beginning that this might happen. It was part of my original assessment that we could try to plan an ideal time and, if the girls disagreed, they'd make their intent known by the actual result.

I hear that this is disappointing for you. Nonetheless, the two best things you can do for your daughters now are (1) give birth to them and (2) be well and strong to serve as their mother.

When I read your post this morning, the first thing that I thought is that we were trying to get you under the new Jupiter lunar return instead of a Saturn dominated chart. Saturn is neither pro or con birth, according to statistics: It is now apparent that the main impact of your current Demi-SLR is to show the strain on your health that is forcing this decision. To push it further would be to risk harm to all three of you.

Then, after a few days of recovery from the surgery, you will have a new SLR Monday - surely feeling it by early Sunday - with Jupiter exactly setting. You still get the chart that shows joy and feelings of celebration

BTW, your quotidians suggest that these last couple of days would have been hard, with natal Mars-Saturn crossing Midheaven (now leaving orb). Tomorrow morning, you are moving into a new SNQ crossing of natal Venus across an angle. In your SQ (the quotidian of your SSR), transiting Jupiter is crossing an angle exactly mid-morning. Remarkably, your PSSR Moon will have reached 25°29' Virgo, 21' shy of your natal Moon - your maternity coming to full term - and almost to the minute square your Venus. The heavens have their own clock and timetable and, while anytime from a month ago until a month from now this aspect would have been valid, it is peaking the week (with Venus, the day) you'll give birth.

[Jim Eshelman]

And, of course, you want to know what the twins' charts will be like. They will be quite different than we have discussed so, I guess, ignore almost anything I've said about them. They will have Sun in Libra and Moon in Cancer - double Rims with Moon sextile Mars, so get ready for them to get in trouble (hopefully all good trouble). Both luminaries aspect Saturn. Mars squares Neptune. Mercury conjoins Venus.

We don't know the angularities or how all of these distribute around the chart. Let us know the times and we'll jump in.

[Freya]

Thank you Jim for having reassured me. I have always been healthy and I am feeling quite ill at the moment as I have the beginning of renal failure and my blood pressure is sky high. Honestly I have never been sicker than in the past month. I have managed to carry twins to term at 37 weeks but it has been extremely hard.

I will do my best for them. I hope they don’t suffer from depression or mental health issues with both luminaries aspected by saturn. I just feel that there will be a lot of problems in their charts, including with me, which saddens me greatly.

I will of course let you know the time they are born and I thank you in advance for helping me out at this moment in time

[Jim Eshelman]

Here is my view about the Saturn: This works out in so many different ways. There may, indeed, be a tendency to see things negatively - other factors support on possibility as being bitter at how the world is turning out - but strong Saturn (especially Moon-Saturn) is good for accomplishment and much self-pride at what one has accomplished.

The one place I find myself a little sad - and also deeply admiring of you - is that you likely will have sacrifices to make. It does seem that Moon-Saturn has (more often than not) a sense that they were deprived of the nurturing they need to be emotionally whole and free early in life. This feeling seems indifferent to whether the love or nurturing were actually there. A sacrifice you may have to make is simply loving them and nurturing them with all you've got and still, later in life, learning that they felt those things weren't there for them, that they were deprived. (Maybe yes, maybe no.)

None of that will have gone to waste, of course. The gigantic difference in whether strong malefic patterns come out negatively (bad character etc.) is the early nurturing environment. I think you need to demonstrate from day 1 your ability to see joy and plenty in the world: They'll absorb as much of this as they can and use it as raw material for whatever they choose to make of themselves.

Always know that it was worthwhile; and always know that the goal (the measure of success) is for them to discover who they are innately and unfold it, regardless of your preferences in the matter.

[Jim Eshelman]

Moon opposite Saturn can be a surprisingly positive aspect. When I look at a collection of Moon-Saturn people I know, the most obvious trait is that they are proud and self-made. Other traits: dynamic, hardworking, persistent, self-driving. Encourages others. Usually emotionally reserved, private. Seeks (often unconscious) total control of situations and relationships. They all have parent-themed issues to work through and are at risk of being judgmental or intolerant (usually absorbing such attitudes from their early environment). Healthy expression of frustrations and anger are important, otherwise they become distrustful and passive-aggressive.

Sun square Saturn people equate their identity with rules, structures, definitions, and concrete things, especially things linked to their physical and psychological survival. They are effective survivors, self-sufficient, hardworking, accomplishing. They don't always good control on strong impulses, but generally have very good control of small and medium-sized ones. Authority issues are there - their developmental goal is to become autonomous, controlling their own lives, which (however) takes a few decades; but they are impatient on this point. They must, therefore, be trained to make good choices and given room to make them that is age appropriate. Circumstances may force early maturation.

Mars square Neptune sounds bad - we always want to think of Charles Manson, even though he is pretty much unlike most people with the aspect. For good or bad, you can remember that it's my strongest natal aspect. It doesn't always have the best results when one is young, but one survives and learns from it if one is compassionate at root. The aspect is known for zealous enthusiasm for one's interests and convictions, inflamed imagination and emotion, and thriving amidst stirred passion and high drama. They will surge into temptation and requires quick gratification of their desires. they will have enormous psychic power to fascinate and move minds and reality. Other details include dramatic aggressions (frustration triggers unresolved anger) and sexual magnetism.

Abd Mercury conjunct Venus will make them charming, gracious, persuasive. The biggest risk is - combined with Mars-Neptune - that they'll use this to wrap everyone around their little fingers and have their way with them. Generally, though, it's light-hearted, pleasant, delighting in learning - and it tends to counter some of the Sun-Saturn tendency to a difficult childhood by giving a happier childhood and a charm of immaturity they carry into adult life.

[Jim Eshelman]

I have four examples of famous people with Sun-Saturn, Moon-Saturn, and Mars-Neptune aspects. (None of these have Mercury-Venus, so they don't particularly have the charm it gives.) The four show a range of type of person: Gustave Flaubert, Havelock Ellis, Czar Ivan the Terrible, and Jimmy Hoffa: Two clearly brilliant and positive figures, two with worse reputations and mixed histories (i.e. Ivan and Hoffa also did a lot of good for a lot of people).

Of these, Flaubert had Moon in Cancer, which your daughters will have.

Or - dropping out the Saturn-luminary aspects - Mercury-Venus and Mars-Neptune exist in 20 cases I have on hand as famous examples. If we narrow it to hard aspects, there are seven: Alfred Dreyfus, Algernon Swinburne, Carla Van Raay, F. Scott Fitzgerald, King Ludwig II, Maya Angelou, and Nathalie Stutzman - again, quite a range of characters, most of whom had at least controversial lives but most of whom also had passionate lives with much creativity. Whether their names are attached more to tragedy or beauty varies according to other conditions, among which surely were their upbringings.

[Freya]

Thank you Jim for your preliminary analysis of their charts. I do feel sad as well for them, especially as they will also have moon-pluto as well as moon-saturn. Oddly enough there seems to be no issues around their father.
I will keep you posted with the time of birth, maybe there will be some redeeming planets foreground