Eris

[Jim Eshelman]

At the moment the first plane hit the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, 8:46 AM EDT, 40N42'42", 74W00'45", Mercury and Eris were both precisely angular and in 0°08' mundane opposition.

Mercury 0°29' below Asc
Eris 0°21' above Dsc

[SteveS]

Jim noted:

Mercury 0°29' below Asc
Eris 0°21' above Dsc

Impressive!

[Mike V]

Some thoughts from a non-Eris native who has it acutely foreground in California, and is now paying attention to that...

Here in San Diego County, my natal Eris is 1º18' past MC; in Los Angeles it's even closer, at 0º23' before MC. In both cases, it becomes my most angular planet, though Mercury and Venus are both quite close to Westpoint and Dsc, respectively.

Stef and I were talking about it, and she had a really good articulation of what I was feeling - it sort of feels like the "anti-OCD planet."

I do have OCD in the clinical sense, and beyond that I am a person who really prefers planning over spontaneity; uncertainty leads to a lot of anxiety for me.
When I've been in California, even before I was paying attention to Eris, I have noticed that I care a lot less about what kind of trajectory I'm on, and am content to just ride the waves of whatever is happening. I used to think that was my psyche reacting to the presence of Venus, since it's background in my natal chart, but now I am thinking that this is much more of an Eris experience.

My very crude and early articulation of the way it feels is: "not recognizing any difference in importance between different possibilities; equally content with whatever ends up happening. Extra difficulty with plotting out a course of action in advance, and perhaps with focusing in general."

[Jim Eshelman]

This is fascinating.

[Jim Eshelman]

Einstein remains one of the most interesting examples to revisit occasionally regarding Eris (and, for that matter, Sedna). At a glance, his horoscope looks like Eris totally dominates, closely conjunct Midheaven. In fact, it doesn't do that: Due to its extreme latitude, at his higher-latitude birth in Germany, Eris (which ecliptically seems to be on MC) is several degrees ABOVE ASCENDANT. It does, however, still stand out in his chart for a very tight square with Moon.

19°47' Aqu - MC
21°28' Sco - Moon [1°28' from WP-a]
21°48' Aqu - Eris [6°05' above Asc!]

Sedna is interesting because it ties into Einstein's famous Mercury-Saturn conjunction. Now, Mercury conjunct Saturn already is a major, positive mark of Einstein's chart: It's not usually a negative aspect and does show in significant mathematicians and, in particular, people who have helped define how the universe works mechanically (Copernicus, Brahe, Newton). In Pisces, it takes on Einstein's physical window of physics. But, even though it's good enough on its own, Sedna adds a new dimension:

9°48' Pis - Sedna
10°05' Pis - Mercury
11°08' Pis - Saturn

I stumbled on this while revisiting Einstein's chart to see if his Novien any further insight on his Mercury patterns and, indeed, it does. The lesser of two things is that his natal Mercury-Saturn conjunction is atop his Novien Jupiter (9°50' Pisces) and Neptune (13°20' Sagittarius), reinforcing the almost metaphysical scope of his physics (which we already see from the nativity) and his academic success (r Mercury on N Jupiter 15'). But even more interesting is that natal Pluto (1°40' Taurus) squares his Novien Mercury (0°47') within 0°53'.

There are so many ways that this relatively simple nativity is extraordinary.

PS - Mercury-Saturn is also quite common for high impact astrologers, which is an interesting link between astronomers that show us how the universe works and astrologers that show us how the universe works in our lives. Some of these include Alan Leo, Llewellyn George, Dane Rudhyar, Margaret Hone, Reinhold Ebertin, myself, Matthew Quellas (and, of course, Copernicus, Brahe, and Newton).

[mikestar13]

Einstein's chart is indeed a great example of Eris and Sedna. Also an illustration of the importance of mundane position. At least in this case an astrologer who only considered longitude would be coincidentally right that Eris is foreground. But it doesn't require much imagination to envision a case where Eris is dead exact on the Midheaven while located in the remotest background mundanely.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "...not recognizing any difference in importance between different possibilities; equally content with whatever ends up happening."

Though under a spiritual basis, this fits me to a T. I have the feeling that lives are already lived in a sense (path-wise) and that we're merely experiencing it seemingly in real-time. Because of this, I have the feeling that we're always right where we are meant to be. For me, if I were to not get a job I was going for, it would be (to me) because the job wouldn't be right for me. I am just as content to not get the job as to get it. All things in life fall into this reasoning.

Re: "Extra difficulty with plotting out a course of action in advance, and perhaps with focusing in general."

Not sure about this one, but I do note (or let's say my wife has noted ) that it's better with me to know ahead of time what we need to do. If she has something on Wednesday, where a deviation will be necessary, she knows not to spring it on me later than Tuesday. Other elements of my chart, I believe, make this part of the "Eris understanding" seem not so on the mark.

In my natal, Eris is square the Sun (0° 14'), semisquare Mars ((0° 9') and inconjunct Neptune (0° 1'). [though I know the last aspect is generational]

In my epoch, Eris is opposite my Sun (1° 1'), inconjunct Venus (0° 43')...

I am a bit curious about transiting Eris, as well as major transits to Eris, though I haven't yet researched that element of it...

[Jim Eshelman]

"Tricky Dick" had the Trickster as his most angular planet.

For so significant a figure in the last half of the 20th Century, there are surprisingly few things in Nixon's chart. He has nothing near an angle. He did have one ferociously powerful middleground aspect structure of Mercury, Mars, and Jupiter tightly conjoined and opposite Pluto which (rightfully) gets the most attention from astrologers.

But with the discovery of Eris, we find he has one closely angular planet: Eris is 1°50' from his Descendant. It's also rightly called an afflicted Eris with the following malefic-heavy aspects:

Code: Select all

Er Pi  F | tr Ne 01°04'    sx Sa 01°39'    sq Pl 02°49'    sq Ma 03°54'    
         | sq Me 04°10'    sq Ju 05°50'    sx Su 06°26'    sx Ur 06°51

In fact, Eris was 17' from the Saturn/Neptune midpoint.

[Soft Alpaca]

Planet is giving me Vermillion vibes.

[Jim Eshelman]

Planet is giving me Vermillion vibes.

What does Vermillion feel like to you?

[Soft Alpaca]

I guess it is a bit odd to apply a feeling to a color. I feel it's the 11% more toned red orange that just ignites something like the sense of entropy to me. In one form we have cinnabar explosive and can be made to be deadly (sharpened and already poisonous), but at the same time it's beautiful and the process that makes it is destructive and beautiful: but also contradictory because it's creating new (life, geography and minerals). In another form we have a dye made from what in large quantities is also again poisonous; cadmium.

When cinnabar was used for lipstick and it also killed you but it was thought to have health benefits.. all just very Eris (this is far deeper than my initial feeling I had to go into this a bit myself).

The spectrum of red waves point me to action and orange denotes to me surprise so there's also that.

[Mike V]

...it sort of feels like the "anti-OCD planet."

My very crude and early articulation of the way it feels is: "not recognizing any difference in importance between different possibilities; equally content with whatever ends up happening. Extra difficulty with plotting out a course of action in advance, and perhaps with focusing in general."

Now that I live in a place where I have Eris partile conjunct MC, and have had some additional time to reflect on it... I'm starting to think of foreground Eris in these terms (or maybe a less crude and slightly later articulation):

• Experiences unity in multiplicity, by tending to not value one possibility or expression over another a priori. "Make no difference between any one thing and any other thing..."

• ...Therefore, has difficulty imagining how they'll feel once they have a certain experience.

• Also therefore, experiences difficulty in practical planning that requires a preferring a sequence of events. They have both difficulty rationalizing about planning, and less patience for engaging in planning.

• Once they actually do have an experience, other chart factors influence their response, but there's commonly additional surprise in their emotional responses, like: "wow, I love this, I can't believe I didn't expect that," or "wow, I hate this, I can't believe I didn't expect that." It's almost like they're disoriented by the practical necessity of having a particular experience, of being one thing and not other things.

• When making a decision on short notice, the tendency is to choose whatever occurs to them as the path of least resistance (or perhaps, the path of least analysis-and-valuation). Accordingly, previous decisions are often "out of sight, out of mind." It's not that they don't honor their word, it's that it mostly exists in the context in which it was made.

• Experienced by others as chaotic in a conventional sense. In their minds, they are just following out a path that seemed like a good idea at the time (see above). At their best, they are spontaneous and free-spirited; at their worst, they are disorganized and somewhat apathetic to consequences.

• Marked tendency to create catastrophes through poor planning (although "catastrophe" is relative, the idea is that someone involved, whether themselves or a loved one, considers the result "catastrophic.")

• Possibly a serial-interest kind of personality, like Sagittarius Suns? (Hard to tell from small sample size)

• Possibly strong long-term memory and weaker short-term memory? (Hard to tell from small sample size)

I do still have some difficulty separating Neptunian ideas from Eristic ideas (to borrow an adjective from the Discordians), as everyone I know closely with Eris foreground also has very prominent Neptune influence in their chart, whether by angularity, luminary placement, or partile luminary aspects. However, I think these few hypothetical principles given above are distinct from common Neptunian expressions.

[Jim Eshelman]

Priceless.

BTW I have Eris foreground and no strong Neptune.

[Jim Eshelman]

One of the far-from-resolved (barely approached) questions about Eris is: What fundamental need corresponds to it?

Not only is the correlation of fundamental needs to planets the most successful approach to astrology IMO, it has great advantage in interpretation and touches several other important questions in astrology. It surely is the bridge that finally anchors astrology firmly as one of the analytic social sciences, a specialized form of psychology.

But what need corresponds to Eris? I mean need in the same basic sense that we speak of essential needs for information, affection-affiliation, power, social ambition, and survival, or at least the tightly adjacent needs like individuation, adaptation, freedom and renewal, etc.

I have been digging into complexity theory - a relatively recent umbrella field arching over mathematics, physical sciences, and social sciences - as part of my primary presentation of astrological synthesis. (Human life and the character that emerges from it is only comprehensible through complexity theory - which, broadly, is the mathematics of "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts," etc.)

Anyway... along the way I've encountered the principle that each system (e.g., each person) must have a minimum necessary threshold of complexity based on the premise (this is cool!) that to be fully adaptive to its environment, circumstances, and other requirements, a system must be as complex as any conditions it encounters. For example, to be optimally adaptive, we must each be as complex as whatever we encounter in the course of our lives.

This seems obvious on reflection. It also leads into half a dozen long branching conversations right out of the gate, but those don't particularly fit here.

One conclusion, though - presuming this principle is as true as it seems, and as capable and well-acquainted minds thing it does - then it means we have a fundamental need for complexity - of greater or lesser intensity as, say, our need for information or human connection - that this need for complexity is as important to our adaptation, survival, and effective functioning in life as the needs for survival or social prestige.

I suspect, therefore, that Eris can be credited with corresponding to a biological need for complexity.

[Jim Eshelman]

Digression: I think it's hilariously on-target symbolism that Mandelbrot - a Scorpio-Leo - is most noted for a theory of roughness and a theory of self-similarity. I do wish we had a time for him.

[Mike V]

I'm intrigued by the idea of there being a fundamental need for complexity, and Eris corresponding to that, but I'm having a hard time agreeing that a system needs to be as complex as what confronts it in order to adapt. I think my difficulty is mostly with connotations on the word "complex."

Jim, would you say that this phrasing is substantially the same in meaning as what you're articulating, or am I off base?

"Any system, when confronting new factors that are not already present within that system, is either disrupted by those new factors, or it integrates them dynamically into its self-coherence."

Sort of like: when a galaxy merges with another galaxy, they either merge into a blob, or a single fully-integrated galaxy with coherent structure. We tend to view that galaxy as a "single thing," no matter how intricate its inner components are.

I'm musing on it as "coherence needs" or "flexibility needs," or even "the need to encompass/integrate/include everything."

Are we thinking (at least mostly) along the same lines?

[Jim Eshelman]

...I'm having a hard time agreeing that a system needs to be as complex as what confronts it in order to adapt. I think my difficulty is mostly with connotations on the word "complex."

I think the wording I used was "to be efficaciously adaptive." There are, of course, different levels of adaptability, and I think lesser ones work most of the time. But, yes, we should be able to filter it out over the long haul.

[/quote]Jim, would you say that this phrasing is substantially the same in meaning as what you're articulating, or am I off base?

"Any system, when confronting new factors that are not already present within that system, is either disrupted by those new factors, or it integrates them dynamically into its self-coherence." [/quote]
That seems a perfect corollary of what I was saying. - Since I'm playing with someone else's articulated principle, I should comment on the "already present within that system." That wouldn't apply to the way that this was first articulated. The original form is that to be efficaciously adaptive, a system must be as internally complex as the external complexity which it confronts (i.e., to which it has to adapt).

Sort of like: when a galaxy merges with another galaxy, they either merge into a blob, or a single fully-integrated galaxy with coherent structure. We tend to view that galaxy as a "single thing," no matter how intricate its inner components are.

Understood.

Are we thinking (at least mostly) along the same lines?

Sorta kinda maybe? Do a Google or Bing on the law of requisite complexity (derived from the law of requisite variety0 and tell me what you think.

PS - I suspect you didn't see my note tagged onto your birthday thread. Can you PM me? I need your help on something I think you can easily do.

[Jim Eshelman]

Today, Eris enters Aries. It entered Pisces gradually from 1901 to 1905 and has been in Pisces non-stop since 1905. It will now slip back and forth working its way into Aries from now through 2028. I haven't a clue what any of this means.

It is worth asking what has been a consistent trend of the world from 1905 through now. I have an idea or two, but they are quite General, as I suppose a century long process would be. I'm just going to leave this here empty for everybody else's comment for now.

[SteveS]

I don't have much of a clue either what this is symbolizing. But, I sure would like to know the pure astrological reason for the astounding technology changes I have seen on this planet since 1905 compared to the rest of know history.

[Jim Eshelman]

I don't have much of a clue either what this is symbolizing. But, I sure would like to know the pure astrological reason for the astounding technology changes I have seen on this planet since 1905 compared to the rest of know history.

To a certain extent, this is merely the progress of history. The Industrial Revolution was as big a PROPORTIONATE leap as the computer age - it was just leaping from a lower plateau.

What would be interesting - I'd have to do a lot of digging to and don't have the time - is to compile a list of all of these gigantic tech leaps of the last two thousand years and see what stair-stepped them up each time.

Oner the 20th century improvements were underway, obvious aspects triggered the individual parts of it - the Uranus-Pluto conjunction in the mid-1960s, the Uranus-Neptune conjunction in the '90s, etc. Each of the big tech breakthrough waves of the last century have come with Saturn in Aquarius, including the current one. With all of this, I think I'd go back to the Neptune-Pluto conjunction around 1890 and follow things forward.

I also know that humanity reached a new threshold just after 1900, which is part of the wave I hinted at above. There are many ways to model this, but one is anchored in something physically measurable: About 1900 was the first time in the history of the world (the whole history of the world!) that at least half the human race did not go to sleep hungry every night. Sufficient food crossed the 50% mark. I have long thought that this triggered a quantum leap in what people did with their brains, fed by the Uranus-Pluto and Uranus-Neptune oppositions of the following few years and empowered by the great cultural changes that these and two wars unleashed.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim, this helps me understand better.

[JD Fan]

Hello, this is my correction

Eris seems to have an affinity with POLITICS

[Mike V]

A good friend of mine lost his job today after being severely overloaded with work for months. Eris has interesting involvement, but first, a disclaimer that this event is fully explicable with factors not involving Eris; for example:

• SSR: Saturn square r. Jupiter 0°06’ (transit to natal locked into the return)
• T. Saturn 45 r. Moon 0°13’
• T. Neptune 180 r. Mars 0°01’
• T. Neptune 0 r. Saturn 0°06’
• T. Saturn 180 s. Mars 0°29’
• Solar Arc Neptune 60 r. Moon 0°01’
• Current SLR: r. Neptune (exact on Dsc), t. Mercury, t. Eris, t. Sun, t. Jupiter, and some other stuff
• Current Demi SLR: t. Pluto (exact on Dsc), r. Neptune, r. Uranus, and some other stuff
• 10-day solar: t. Pluto, r. Uranus, t. Eris, r. Neptune

Clearly, there's a lot of very strong unpleasant, restrictive, and confusing elements in play right now. Are we missing any information if we ignore Eris? I don't think so.

...However, I find it interesting that Eris consistently shows up despite that:

• T. Eris 90 r. Neptune 0°15’
• Solar Arc Pluto 90 r. Eris 0°02’
• Solar Arc Eris 135 r. Neptune 0°10’
• SLR: T. Eris on MC -0°26’ (not as close as Neptune and Mercury, believe it or not, but still very close)
• SLR: R. Eris on MC +4°12’ (also: t. Sun 180 r. Eris 3°00’ M)
• Demi SLR: T. Eris on Zenith 1°41’
• 10-Day Solar: T. Eris on Dsc +3°24’

Some notes on the context:
He has been in the social work field, and has consistently excelled due to his courage, empathy, and work ethic, but his former employer had very poor management that sought to maintain an unsustainable status quo, and blame systematic failings on anyone who stuck their neck out. He asked for help because his caseload was nuts, so he was placed on a performance improvement plan (???), and then was let go.

[SteveS]

May karma extract some revenge on his former employer! “Revenge is mine Sayed the Lord.” Par-excellent symbolism for his firing but it is time to move on to better things, and probably better for his health.

[Jim Eshelman]

Wow. That's some lineup.

You're right - we have the story very well without Eris (and, in fact, more clearly, I think). But that's quite a pile-up and a mix of different kinds of Eris. So much that it's hard to sort out. The most I could say is that there is definite chaos here.

But it would be nice to be able to say more precise things so maybe I'll wander back here later and if it sorts out in any meaningful way piece by piece.

It's mostly transiting Eris ("outside" Eris), so the surest thing I can say is that life would be expected it to be vastly more chaotic. The two Solar Arcs tell me that he has a natal Eris = Neptune/Pluto midpoint that got activated.

[Mike V]

I am still watching Eris in my own returns, and transits to it, but so far I am definitely feeling that Eris is more of a malefic than a benefic, in the traditional sense, or it's at least neutral-but-intense like Pluto. At the very least, I don't think it should be grouped with Venus/Jupiter/Uranus.

[Jim Eshelman]

I am still watching Eris in my own returns, and transits to it, but so far I am definitely feeling that Eris is more of a malefic than a benefic, in the traditional sense, or it's at least neutral-but-intense like Pluto. At the very least, I don't think it should be grouped with Venus/Jupiter/Uranus.

Agreed. I'll go with "neutral-but-intense like Pluto" with a focus on disruption in particular.

I was very taken (I think "stunned" is the better word) to realize a few months ago that the relative size of the planets seems to organize planet meanings. This is really obvious if you simply rank the eight non-luminary agreed upon planets: Their size from largest to smallest is Jupiter Saturn / Uranus Neptune / Venus Mars / Mercury Pluto.

But add the luminaries back and toss in Eris (which has a diameter about 50 km smaller than Pluto) and it becomes even more interesting, with each planet seeming either closely similar or exactly opposite the one on either side of it - more like a smooth curve, while still preserving those pairs. The four at the bottom pair off most interestingly:

Sun 1,391,400 km
======================
Jupiter 139,822 km
Saturn 116,464 km
-------------------------------
Uranus 50.724 km
Neptune 49,244 km
-------------------------------
Venus 12,104 km
Mars 6,779 km
-------------------------------
Mercury 4,880 km
Moon 3,475 km
-------------------------------
Pluto 2,377 km
Eris 2,326 km

I feel comfortable saying that Pluto and Eris are exactly the same in the same way that Venus and Mars are exactly the same (or Jupiter and Saturn the same, or Uranus and Neptune the same) and, at the same time, are opposite or complement each other (probably in the sense of "the solitary one singled out from the infinite swarm" vs. "the infinite swarm").

[Mike V]

Intellectually, I have appreciated the Mercury/Pluto pairing, especially since that lets us keep Sun and Moon paired together, but it's always felt weird to me when I sit down with an actual chart, or transits, etc. I much prefer Moon/Mercury at the gut level as a complementary pair. (And maybe Mercury can be seen psychologically as an introjection of the Sun, so we still have a Sun/Moon pairing, kinda sorta... I dunno)

The nice thing here is that, like you mention, Pluto and Eris get to pair off here. And having the Sun stand alone is quite reasonable in this schema.

The following is very speculative and philosophical, so forgive me for indulging; I think it'll help me grasp this sort of thing:

My gut impression of Eris continues to evolve as I watch it. I'm very taken with "disruption" as a keyword much more than "chaos," despite my leaning on "chaos" in previous attempts at wrangling Eris. "Disruption but a polarity to Pluto" seems sort of like Uranus, and sort of like Pluto too, but perhaps with less focus on the individual as the center of the disruptive event? Unsure.

I'm pondering Eris along these lines: if Pluto is the root of individuality (however the personality experiences that in practice), and Eris is the infinite sea of those points (Ain Soph Aur)... To me, that suggests a fundamental personality need for Eris as: transcending the individuality, identifying with a "whole." I think this concept is different from Neptune's immersion in "the collective" in the sense that it's at a higher octave. It's not immersion, it's transcendence. It's not losing oneself in a larger context, it's finding oneself in a larger context. It's not warm and protective as Neptune wants to experience things; it's disrupting and detaching, along Uranian lines, but without the centrism (on self or anything in particular). Consciousness of everywhere-as-the-center?

When I view it like that, all of the planetary polarities seem like they can be compared in this way... Merging/embracing vs self-protecting or self-asserting.

Anyway, I hope that's useful for at least one of us

[Lyse]

I notice that the women I have known with this aspect (not at all limited to those with whom I've been "involved") are pretty close to the definition of "sexually loose." It's not just that they're sexually active. It's that they are truly promiscuous in the, "<shrug> I think this is the fast food I'll get, since I'm driving past" sort of way.

At the very least, most of the men and women I know best who have this are "sexually easy," and they "get around."

They also have a sassy, think-for-themselves way through life. (Though sometimes they do shock tactics, I think it's just to establish that they are acting on their own and making their own decisions - in case anyone has any doubts about that.)

The description of sexual easiness doesn’t fit with my experience of having a mundane, Mercury square Eris, 37’. For me, intimacy would develop from a deep and lasting connection, otherwise I’d be on my own. However, deep for me could happen quickly and the relationship would last years, not an afternoon. It’s absolutely impossible for me to connect on that level with random or many people.

Intellectually, I’m a whistleblower, rabble-rouser (minus any violent rhetoric) and a trickster. My words and deeds are likely very irritating to a fair number of people. Mercury square Eris would better fit that aspect of my character. Yet, the conjunction of my Sun-Uranus, Moon-Pluto and even Saturn conjunct Ascendant could describe the same personality traits.

[LeiLei]

I have a moderate Mercury-Eris opposition & I strongly agree with Lyse. I have never been promiscuous sexually. I've never had a one night stand & have only had a small number of partners with whom I had a committed relationship. I've also been celibate by choice for the last 12 years.

Possibly I should also note I have Sun-Eris 0*00' & Pluto-Eris 0*06'm oppositions. I still have no idea what they mean really. I get the trickster element, in a fun playful way, but I haven't been able to discern anything else meaningful from the aspects yet. My life has been rather chaotic, kind of like riding a roller coaster you can never escape.

[Jim Eshelman]

It might be an era thing - now vs. the '70s through '90s.

Even though almost every Eris aspect has some strong sexual theme running through it (or something close to that), I've never thought Mercury-Eris was about the sex per se since Mercury isn't sexual per se. It seems must be something else like a multiplicity theme or sliding through (or leaving a trail of) chaos and disruption. Nonetheless, I wouldn't have mentioned it for a Mercury aspect if it hadn't been an overwhelmingly common trait that was overwhelmingly obvious in a high percentage of the people examined.

Thanks for the data points.

LeiLei, your Mercury-Eris is over 5°. I wouldn't have taken that too seriously. (Sun-Eris and Mercury-Pluto are much bigger deals.) Lyse, I missed yours at first because it's mundane, but a partile (mundane) square should be strong enough to take seriously.

[Lyse]

Lyse, I missed yours at first because it's mundane, but a partile (mundane) square should be strong enough to take seriously.

Jim, this is the first description of an aspect you have written about that doesn’t relate to my personal observations. However, if the Mercury-Eris aspect was experienced as an outside event, it may fit. My father was a chronic womanizer who had a wife and multiple girlfriends. They showed up en masse at his funeral which was terribly upsetting, though everyone knew for years. That’s the only connection that I can make.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, this is the first description of an aspect you have written about that doesn’t relate to my personal observations. However, if the Mercury-Eris aspect was experienced as an outside event, it may fit. My father was a chronic womanizer who had a wife and multiple girlfriends. They showed up en masse at his funeral which was terribly upsetting, though everyone knew for years. That’s the only connection that I can make.

Got it. - This IS still an experimental planet and I don't think we're more likely to have a permanent word on it for a long time. At present, we're at about the level of Pluto knowledge in 1940 (which was pretty poor). So, one, I could just be wrong. Or it could be locale, time, or situationally specific. Or any number of things. Meanwhile, the only way I know to get closer to a reliable reality is to bluntly state what I see (and for you to do the same).

I'm not a fan of "it happened in my environment" ways of reading a chart, although sometimes we do indeed externalize events (or are sensitized to notice certain kinds of events more powerfully, etc.). With recent work developing writings on houses, I can't even use that as an excuse, since your Mercury-Eris square is between the 5th and 8th houses - which (in theory, but I can't say it's confirmed) is about as sexualized as an aspect can get. (There is plenty of other father stuff with the mix of your rising Saturn and various possible expressions of your Cancer planets and the Moon-Pluto conjunction at MC.)

Now, if your father had Eris in the 5th House square something in the 8th, that certainly could describe the chaos at the funeral

[Lyse]

Now, if your father had Eris in the 5th House square something in the 8th, that certainly could describe the chaos at the funeral

It was clear who he was from a young age because I’d see him drive by with numerous women, all unknown to me. It took me a while though to figure it out - I was about 12. That realization occurred when I saw him come out of his other house further up our street, the two residences separated by the park.

This is what I meant by outward events having an impact, rather than the funeral from hell. His antics had a profound effect and turned me off that type of man for life. He was a Sun Libra, Moon Taurus with a fairly tight Venus-Jupiter square with no Eris aspects but I don’t have an exact birth time.

[Mike V]

I took a long look through all of the natal charts I have for people I am or was close to, and sorted out where Eris appears strongly for each of them. I’m using that as the foundation for much longer-term contemplation. However, ideas started to gel from that, at least in terms of the language that I use to describe commonalities I see between people with similar Eris involvement.

A few new general themes emerged for me from looking at Eris foreground vs background (and comparing to Pluto foreground vs background). A word that keeps coming to mind as a keyword for Eris is context. Pluto foreground strikes me as being generally quiet about being oneself, not being particularly loud about declaring oneself unless provoked or otherwise encouraged to do that; Eris, however, seems to have a need to declare oneself to others that form the context, to merge understanding of self with them, even when that is socially or emotionally disruptive (“coming on too strong”). Eris seems to be concept-oriented as opposed to detail-oriented, forest-oriented as opposed to tree-oriented. I think this is the underlying theme in my earlier conceptions of “having difficulty making valuations or following through with a plan.” Pluto seems to be more about a (comparatively) fixed sense of truth or what it means to be “authentic,” whereas Eris seems more to view itself as flowing, evolving, a dynamic truth that exists in some context.

I also took a look through planetary aspects to Eris, and have some thoughts:

Moon-Eris: Small sample size (including me in NJ), but early impressions are: very reactive to mother figures; affected very deeply by the context their mothers create. Easily lost in their own emotional experiences, project those onto their worlds. Tends to hide or be protective of emotions when upset, possibly because they have a bad poker face.

Sun-Eris: Driven. Needs to have others understand what they're about and acknowledge their goals. Both tames others' chaos, and creates their own chaos. Needs to be at the center of attention when upset, but willing to let others do the talking. (Somewhat difficult to distinguish from Mars foreground in my sample.)

Mercury-Eris: Occult-friendly (though this may be a bias in my samples!). Willing to have their ideas challenged through interaction with others. Hesitant to communicate, to open up fully, until they are sure their context will engage with them deeply on their ideas; then, very animated, excited, inexhaustible intellectual passion. Reserved in 1-on-1 contexts, pending that mutual connection being made.

Venus-Eris: Very particular ideas about aesthetics, design. Fashion-conscious (?). Unafraid to share darkness without being self-conscious. Emotional volatility that matures into emotional presence/openness/availability. Great joy comes from the beauty in their worldview, or they come across as a "tragic artist,” a yearning and unfulfilled (philosophical) romantic.

Mars-Eris: Competitiveness is based on themselves but always in relation to a context, winning on behalf of a team or an idea. Competitive energies split into many areas. High libido but will be submissive to very dominant partners. Seems to prefer others to make the first move. Does not assert self without regard for others. "Sensitive masculinity."

Jupiter-Eris: (Only one example. He is a generous and magnanimous person, though.)

Saturn-Eris: Father figures are aloof and detached, though not abusive or directly inducing hardship. Difficulty establishing foundation for self; reliant on others (context). Can put in hard work for self, but it seems wasted, or they have difficulty finishing the job or putting it to use. Delayed or incomplete education. Systematic mind, like Mercury-Saturn. Cowed by hardship; submits to defeat. Very prominent in friends who are "stuck" in life (including NEETs). Unusually high intelligence. Possibly the planetary aspect pair that I feel most confident of.

Uranus-Eris: Willing to exert self at the expense of others; willing to disregard niceties once someone leaves the room. Comfortable claiming space with others around; not easily intimidated. Seeks to have their mind blown; psychedelics. Tenacious and self-sustaining.

Neptune-Eris: Small sample size, but… Deeply interested in fantasy, but doesn't blur the lines between fantasy and "reality." Seems to yearn for immersion and absorption, but is too "realistic" to accept mystery for mystery's sake. Sort of an aloof witness to mystery and fantasy rather than being caught up in it.

Pluto-Eris: (Only one example, and my notes about aloofness are hard to distinguish from Capricorn Sun.)

[SteveS]

Just noticed the most intense chaotic day of my entire life was in a board meeting where the President was fired as part of a hostile takeover of a small private Company on July 1st 1985.
t. Mars 20Gem08
t. Eris 21Pi51
r. Mercury 20Vir10

[Jim Eshelman]

Just noticed the most intense chaotic day of my entire life was in a board meeting where the President was fired as part of a hostile takeover of a small private Company on July 1st 1985.
t. Mars 20Gem08
t. Eris 21Pi51
r. Mercury 20Vir10

That DOES make a much more interesting example than without Eris. Quite interesting.

[SteveS]

Exactly Jim!

[SteveS]

I think Jim has nailed the main symbolism for Eris: “Chaotic” situations, Chaos in general. Based on my life, Eris is such a slow moving transit, it acts like a ‘Station’ when it is involved in partile/exact 0, 90, 180 transit to a Natal Planet, relative to HOW that Natal Planet is operating in the immediate environment of one’s life. So, you may want to pay close attention to when transiting Eris is partile 0, 90, 180 aspected to a Natal Planet, these type Eris transits will happen very rarely in a lifetime.

For example: My main life experience with a transiting Eris was when Eris was exact 180 my Natal Mercury. The main symbolic way Mercury performed in my business life (1970s) was making a living (income) with a small private company who owned and operated several commercial Theaters. My main business thinking responsibility was contracting the best grossing Movies for this Company. The 70s were the Golden Era of Blockbusting grossing Movies. The small company I worked for had no competition and was making a small fortune with these blockbusting grossing movies. When transiting Eris came partile 180 my Natal Mercury---competition was announced for our flagship city of Theaters, this eventually cut top line revenues for the Company by 50%. Bottom line: This partile/exact transiting Eris 180 to my Natal Mercury manifested the single most chaotic crises within the Company and my lifetime pertaining to Business.

Remember, all Natal Planets are relative to what’s going-on in one’s life and this varies depending on a-lot of various life factors.

[SteveS]

When you get as old as I am, you are allowed to look at your whole life with more astrological perspective. I started working for a privately owned Theater Company when I was 6 years old (my parent’s home was next to a Drive-Inn) and fell in love with every aspect (learned it-all) of the workings of this business as I grew older. It was the only job/career I ever knew and felt it would go on the rest of my life. When I was 24 (1971) I reached Executive status in this company and was on top of the world career-wise. This Company operated Theaters in non-competitive markets with very high profits. Then in May 1979 competition was announced in a major market for the Company and this threw my business/career world into complete Chaos, cutting profits by 50%. Eris, the planet of Chaos by Jim’s keen observations with his life was near exact transiting 180 my Natal Mercury with t. Pluto closely conjunct my Natal Mercury. Never in my entire life have I felt such intense mental/business Chaos, my entire secured business/career world was turned completely upside-down, I will spare you the details.

If any member of this forum has experienced a partile (1 degree orb or less) 0 or 180 transit of Eris to their Natal angles or Natal Planet, let us know how Eris affected your life, thanks.

[Jim Eshelman]

The biggest puzzle to me was that I've never been able to understand what Eris' transiting square to my Mars has meant. Steve, you've had this about the same time. Eris made 11 exact squares to my Mars from June 2018 to February 2023 and, besides the Covid era falling in the middle of that (an "event" everybody had, not just me) I can't see anything that matches that time. One of these occurred the month of my wedding which makes no particular sense in terms of these planets. None of the other days make unusual sense in terms of type of event (e.g., I don't see it as a time that drew on or significantly affected my Mars side).

The most important should have been Eris opposite my Sun, which also had 11 exact hits beteen June 1988 and February 1999. That was an important era; e.g., my private law practice began in '87 when it was orb but didn't really take off until '88, and mostly ran its course by '97, closing for good in '98. I had another venture, one of the greatest of my life, that was inaugurated at the end of '87 and fully blossomed in the spring of '89. My spiritual training had its strongest, most accelerated period through that entire time. I wrote several books and dozens of short pieces, started and edited (and mostly wrote) a journal that ran six years, learned oer relearned several ancient languages and translated obscure old works. I could easily be said to have at least three or four careers simultaneously during those years, though it never really felt chaotic - it felt surging. It just felt getting on with what I was created to do. One or two of those 11 dates are near important dates in this process though, overall, the whole period blurs together.

Nothing more u8ntil Eris opposes my Neptune (and fwiw conjoins my Sedna) starting in 2029.

[Veronica]

Eris squared my Venus in my 1983 SSR. That was when my body really shifted from the androgynous child frame to looking like a full blown woman. In thinking about that time I recall feeling like one night I went to sleep and I woke up the next day feeling like a full blown mountain range, so much so that my balance was precarious doing the gymnastics I loved. My leotard never fit right, or stayed put so I quit, I just felt so awkward and self conscious about my body.

[Lyse]

May 1988

Solar Arc directed Eris partile 180° Ascendant for a spiritual experience that sent me on a thirty-five year journey to understand that event.

D Eris 16°22’ Ari
ASC 16°56’ Lib

However, I also had

t Pluto 16°21’ Lib
p Moon 15°48’ Lib
ASC 16°56’ Lib

It’s difficult to determine what transit, progression or direction was pivotal, maybe all of them were in operation for a truly chaotic time.

[SteveS]

Thanks everyone, it appears transiting Eris did not time as much chaos in your life as mine. Just goes to prove each Natal is uniquely/individually different in several ways with aspects, other transits, progressions, arcs, solunars, signs, and house structures. I am going to start tracking Eris with my mundane astrology and solunars to see what I may learn.

[Lyse]

maybe all of them were in operation for a truly chaotic time.

Having thought more about my experience, it wasn’t chaotic at all but puzzling and I needed answers. Therefore, it doesn’t fit with the current definition of Eris.

[SteveS]

Lyse wrote:

Having thought more about my experience, it wasn’t chaotic at all but puzzling and I needed answers. Therefore, it doesn’t fit with the current definition of Eris.

I hear you Lyse, angular Moon-Pluto alone is enough to create a “puzzling” experience for your life. Thanks for sharing.

[Mike V]

Having thought more about my experience, it wasn’t chaotic at all but puzzling and I needed answers. Therefore, it doesn’t fit with the current definition of Eris.

I am outside the norm of what siderealists seem to be thinking about Eris so far, but I personally think the "chaos" theme, in the casual sense of that word, is over-emphasized. Or at least, the connotations I have around that word don't strongly define the early trends I think I'm seeing.

[SteveS]

Thanks Mike V for sharing.

[Lyse]

I am outside the norm of what siderealists seem to be thinking about Eris so far, but I personally think the "chaos" theme, in the casual sense of that word, is over-emphasized.

Having a Mercury-Eris mundane aspect, Mike, I’ve never thought my thinking was particularly chaotic but one of gathering every bit of information, working in the background alone or with one or two others, to force an agenda. This may bring disruptive change to some but that I can’t know, as it’s not my experience.

[Jim Eshelman]

I am outside the norm of what siderealists seem to be thinking about Eris so far, but I personally think the "chaos" theme, in the casual sense of that word, is over-emphasized.

Having a Mercury-Eris mundane aspect, Mike, I’ve never thought my thinking was particularly chaotic but one of gathering every bit of information, working in the background alone or with one or two others, to force an agenda. This may bring disruptive change to some but that I can’t know, as it’s not my experience.

That's not too far from my working definition for Mercury-Eris (though the fine points are hard to distinguish in easy language as we move through these outermost planets). Standard paragraph:

leaping to significant, persistent success. (Seems intuitive at first impression, but actually pursues goals through persistent effort and skill rewarded by insight.) A sassy, often unbounded “think-for-oneself” way through life (may use shock tactics to prove they think and act on their own). Promiscuous: persistently casual, diverse, and indiscriminate in sexual variety (sliding through chaos? leaving a wake of chaos? “multiplicity” theme?).

Your "gathering every bit of information" is a close match to what I mean by chaos, specifically the swarm (as I like to call it) of infinite, equal simultaneous data points.