The Clintons & Monica Lewinsky

[Jim Eshelman]

Bill Clinton: August 19, 1946, 8:51 AM CST, Hope, AR (AA)
Hillary Clinton: October 26, 1947, 6:45 PM CST, Chicago, IL (AA)
Monica Lewinsky: July 23, 1973, 12:21 PM PDT, San Francisco, CA (AA)

There is a lot of fascinating stuff to learn by studying these charts together. I suggest (to cut through the simplistic media tales and first-person perspective) viewing these charts while watching Barbara Walters' interview with Monica in 1999.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUUATD_pfYE

[SteveS]

Jim, when you get time, what do you see in their comparrison charts? I never will forget the moment when I analyzed Bill's SSR after the Lewinsky's scandal broke. I think I will go back and revisit this SSR.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, when you get time, what do you see in their comparrison charts? I never will forget the moment when I analyzed Bill's SSR after the Lewinsky's scandal broke. I think I will go back and revisit this SSR.

I could write an essay, but was hoping not to - just leave it here as part of the good examples for others to examine. The SSR, of course, is another matter - predictive work. I'm always more interested in charts (whether natal or synastry) outside of time, i.e., their permanent meaning.

In this case, the gist is that the interchange is extremely positive on so many dynamics - I really don't want to give interpretations that would bias people's reading before they watch the interviews and draw their own non-astrological conclusions. The one rough aspect is that Bill's Saturn closely conjoins Monica's Sun. The reason I find this especially interesting is that it also (even closer) squares Hillary's Sun. (Monica and Hillary's Suns are closely square each other.) Something in Bill's character leads him to pick women whose Sun aspects his Saturn. Also, I was surprised on rereading to learn that my standard interpretation in this Synastry section on the Sun-Saturn interchange fits Bill and Monica quite exactly (given my non-astrological reading of the relationship) - but, of course, only in the context of the rest of the chart interchange.

[FlorencedeZ.]

I think they had enormous positive mental activity.
Admiring, respecting, promoting, endorsing, and encouraging each others ideas as they share a mutual Mercury-Jupiter aspect. Plus his Jupiter is on her Eastpoint whilst her Mars is opposite his Jupiter. That may have set her on fire for him I guess.
His Venus opposing her Eris would welcome that, I guess being a promiscuous influence and having no problem with it.

His Mercury-Pluto squares her Moon, an aspect of great mental activity. Moon-Pluto is the moth to the flame attraction, take it or leave it.
Her Venus squares his Sun, a very positive aspect for friendship.
As Saturn is conjunct her Sun I'd think this is te barrier between them, perhaps the forbidden, the force against what was going on.

But I think she knew exactly what she was doing as her natal shows an '0'08'' mundo angular Mars opposite Uranus.

[Jim Eshelman]

Plus his Jupiter is on her Eastpoint whilst her Mars is opposite his Jupiter. That may have set her on fire for him I guess.

I like to start with looking simply at signs, without getting into aspects; and, in that regard, I note that both his Venus and Mars are in Virgo with her Mars in Pisces. As a first impression, those are mighty powerful pairings!

Though, at the signs-only level, the really big deal is that they had the same Moon sign. People with the same or opposite Moon signs simply feel at home with each other, like they're a comfortable fit. I noticed in my school years that the small clusters of girls who hung out with each other and were best friends mostly had their Moons in the same sign.

You've made many excellent observations, Flo! (No need for me to comment on each one. Catching the two-way Mercury-Jupiter is right to the point, I think, along with his Mercury square her Moon.)

His Venus opposing her Eris would welcome that, I guess being a promiscuous influence and having no problem with it.

I wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be how that interchange works.

But also... one of the biggest things... is that his Venus is conjunct her Ascendant.

Moon-Pluto is the moth to the flame attraction, take it or leave it.

Yes!

But I think she knew exactly what she was doing as her natal shows an '0'08'' mundo angular Mars opposite Uranus.

I think she knew exactly what she was doing - at least, as far as a 23-year-old can know. Her chart isn't that of a push-over, and the way she conveys herself then and since is anything but naive or push-over. A double Rim with Uranus rising in (as you say) 0°08' opposition to setting Mars. (For that matter, Eris exactly angular, on her WP-a. She's not constitutionally opposed to letting chaos churn around her.)

Looking at her natal, though, I can't help notice the condition of her Venus. I mentioned elsewhere that - whether just because it's in Leo or, perhaps, because it's exactly conjunct Regulus ecliptically and mundanely - there may a circuit in her that is attracted to "kings" in some sense. But, more simply, Venus is background, in a sign not necessarily comfortable for Venus, with its one outstanding aspect being a partile sextile to Saturn. It's not an easy, comfortable Venus at all. (And mundanely its square to Neptune gets much closer.) She is much stronger as Sun, Mercury, Uranus, and Mars than as Venus.

[Jim Eshelman]

To add some things most people aren't going to check: With Monica's Mars-Uranus opposition at 25-26° Pisces-Virgo, Bill's Novien Moon is 26°50' Pisces!

And then - turn it around - here are very telling aspects from her Novien to his natal with devastating consequences:

11°14' Pis - Monica's N Saturn
11°43' Sag - Monica's N Moon
12°22' Vir - Bill's r Mars
12°32' Pis - Bill's r Eris
12°52' Vir - Bill's r Neptune
13°53' Sag - Monica's N Uranus

(Her Novien Venus is also 7° Virgo, near that Mars-Neptune.) If this were transits to his chart for the event, we'd think it an exact, descriptive hit.

Her important Moon-Jupiter square at 14-15° Rim meets his Novien Saturn 13°18' Capricorn.

It's interesting that the Noviens produce a significantly different version than the interchanges of the natals - though not incompatible with it.

[FlorencedeZ.]

I like to start with looking simply at signs, without getting into aspects; and, in that regard, I note that both his Venus and Mars are in Virgo with her Mars in Pisces. As a first impression, those are mighty powerful pairings!
Though, at the signs-only level, the really big deal is that they had the same Moon sign. People with the same or opposite Moon signs simply feel at home with each other, like they're a comfortable fit. I noticed in my school years that the small clusters of girls who hung out with each other and were best friends mostly had their Moons in the same sign.

Exactly Jim. You are right. I jumped straight to their synastry instead of looking at signs first. This is a good reminder.

As for his Venus on her Ascendant, I need to adjust Solar Fire to a wider setting. As it is '4'08'' orb, I overlooked one of the most telling interchange aspects.
Interesting to learn about her background Venus in Leo, making the other planets stronger then Venus.

[Jim Eshelman]

What happens when we progress Bill's chart to the moment and place of Monica's birth? The quotidian is extremely telling (including the fact that it has essentially his natal angles):

11°58' Vir - SNQ Asc
12°22' Vir - r Mars
12°28' Gem - SNQ MC
12°32' Pis - r Eris
12°52' Vir - r Neptune
13°40' Vir - SNQ EP-a
13°45' Vir - p Neptune

Their birth times were geometrically interlocked with the gap from locations and across dates. She also had SNQ Asc for his birth almost precisely her natal Asc. The one thing this brought closest to the angles was her natal Mars-Uranus opposition:

24°53' Vir - r Uranus
25°42' Vir - SNQ EP-a
25°46' Pis - r Mars

[mikestar13]

Clinton and Lewinsky had an interesting relationship both consensual and coercive (intrinsically because of the vast power differences between them) per Ms. Lewinsky's own statements, which I am inclined to believe. Bill's conduct was dishonorable to say the least. Regardless of whatever arrangement he and Hillary may or may not had between them, publicly he claimed to be a faithful family man who kept his marriage vows, and he threw Monica under the bus to save his political hide.

I wonder what would have happened if Bill had confessed to the nation "I committed adultery. I owe Ms. Lewinsky an apology for how I treated her, and I owe repentance to my wife and my God. This matter is of no concern to the news media or the United States Congress."

[Jim Eshelman]

His opponents would have said, "Well, fine, but there's the matter of the perjury."

BTW, Bill and Monica both have Mars as a #1 "strongest need" 100% intensity planet. They are most different in their Neptune scores, his being tied with Mars at #1 and hers being #10 (12% intensity).

[mikestar13]

True, but had he behaved honorably, Bill would not have committed the perjury in the first place, either answering honestly or refusing to answer rather than lying by weasel words (had he even committed adultery--if he were that honorable he wouldn't have, but otherwise honorable men and women now and then succumb to temptation--not a new thing even with David and Bathsheba, much less Bill and Monica). Legally a significant question was whether perjury was reasonably impeachable when the question Bill lied about was something Congress had no business asking: "did you have voluntary sex with an adult woman who is not your wife?" (in effect, don't recall the exact wording). There never was any allegation of rape -- I agree that Bill's lack of marital fidelity was not a matter of concern for the US Congress. Though it sure satisfied the always more moralistic Republicans in Congress to ask it. In general Republicans are more likely to be moralistic (not moral!) in the Judaeo-Christian sense than Democrats, in my experience.

The Neptune scores suggest something interesting. Apparently Bill was much more caught up in fantasy than Monica, reasonable if we assume his marriage to Hillary was an unhappy one.

In short, Bill could have acted like an honorable man who fell into sin and took ownership of it, but presented himself as a dishonorable man who got caught, thus IMHO harming himself politically more than the truth would have.

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, of course he could have acted differently. And if he wanted to be evasive, I always thought he should have played the "Southern gentleman" card: "A gentleman does not answer that sort of question about a woman."

But the question wasn't in front of Congress, it was in a civil lawsuit - the Paula Jones civil suit. It can be argued that they had every reason to ask that question to establish a pattern of behavior. Because there was no allegation of rape or any other crime, he couldn't decline to answer based on the 5th Amendment. He could only answer, or brute force his way through. In hindsight, his best strategy likely would have been to refuse to answer. (His lawyer probably didn't know he facts, so didn't know to object - and force a court to decide later if it was a relevant question.)

Monica had gotten ambushed the day before IIRC and wanted to warn him of the ambush - but felt she'd be putting herself at legal risk for doing so. (The Barbara Walters interview went into that pretty well IIRC.)

[mikestar13]

I had forgotten the exact context of the question and the connection with the Paula Jones case. I'm not sure was relevant to establish a pattern. Though Monica was in a grossly unequal power relationship (which many would regard as intrinsically coercive), Monica never alleged she was harassed or coerced, very different than the Paula Jones allegations. Taking everything about him in total (not just about Monica), I would judge Clinton to be a dishonorable man, but that is not in itself impeachable. I could name quite few U.S. Presidents who would be impeached under that standard. I would name name one of each party: Woodrow Wilson, the most racist American that ever held the title of President apart from Jefferson Davis, and Warren Harding, who began his affair with his mistress Nan Britton when she was 12. Neither were impeached.

[Jim Eshelman]

Agreed, the Monica case was unrelated. I've heard Monica analyze how she was actually a witness AGAINST the Jones case because she was never coerced, never threatened with loss of job (quite the opposite), etc.

My whole view of it was that it was nobody's business, certainly past an HR quiet inquiry into serious impropriety.

[Jim Eshelman]

As of this morning, we have Hillary's birth certificate and surprise birth time. I've added it above and changed the name of the thread to show the more complicated story that can be studied. Some of the new contacts to both Bill and Monica charts from Hillary's now-known angles and Moon are stunning.