Composite Nodes?

[KatyMayStrong]

I’m not a big user of nodes but would you take note of the nodes in a composite chart? My program calculates it but I’m not sure it would theoretically apply to composites?

[SteveS]

FWIW Katy, I have long worked with nodes (Dragon’s Head) in all kinds of charts and find them to offer excellent symbolic value relative to my personal life experiences with important contacts in my life. I was born with an angular Jupiter 180 Node (“fortunate contacts”), and can emphatically state that this aspect has put me into many “fortunate contacts” in my life, much more so when I have asked other people with just angular Jupiter if they have had a –lot of “fortunate contacts” in their life. I sincerity believe the Node has much to do with making certain type of “contacts”, benefic or malefic depending on how the Node is wired in a chart.

As for just Composite Nodes---not much experience in this sphere, but I would expect it to offer good/same symbolic value when prominent in a Composite chart as I have experience the Node in other charts.

[KatyMayStrong]

FWIW Katy, I have long worked with nodes (Dragon’s Head) in all kinds of charts and find them to offer excellent symbolic value relative to my personal life experiences with important contacts in my life. I was born with an angular Jupiter 180 Node (“fortunate contacts”), and can emphatically state that this aspect has put me into many “fortunate contacts” in my life, much more so when I have asked other people with just angular Jupiter if they have had a –lot of “fortunate contacts” in their life. I sincerity believe the Node has much to do with making certain type of “contacts”, benefic or malefic depending on how the Node is wired in a chart.

As for just Composite Nodes---not much experience in this sphere, but I would expect it to offer good/same symbolic value when prominent in a Composite chart as I have experience the Node in other charts.

Thanks Steve, appreciate the feedback. I do use nodes, perhaps not as much as I should. Yours sounds like a very helpful one to have. What do you mean by a “180 node”? Is that another name for the south node?

[SteveS]

Katy asked:

What do you mean by a “180 node”? Is that another name for the south node?

I am sorry Katy for my wrong choice of words with not enough explanation how I use the “node” in my work. First, I only use the North Node in my work, I follow the German School of Astrologers (Cosmobiologist’s). I don’t use the south node, only the North Node which the German School labeled the “Dragon’s Head” with their following key words:

Principle: Association or alliance.
Sociological Correspondence: Meetings, alliances, societies, contacts, blood ties, kindred and related people.

The German Schools did not recognize the South Node as a true valid symbolic factor.
Because of my angular Jupiter opposing (1,27 orb) my North Node (Dragon’s Head) in my Natal I have definitely realized the importance of my Natal North Node for my life. It my life’s experience with my Natal North Node which has allowed me to realize the very special symbolic truths of the North Node in my life as taught by the German Schools.

My Natal showing my angular Jupiter-Node:
https://ibb.co/ScScG5p

Katy, when using the Node with composite charts, depending on the type of relationships you are analyzing, I suspect it could be important depending on the aspects of the composite Node, but like I said I don’t have much experience with composite charts. I hope this better explains my take on the Node (only North Node).

[KatyMayStrong]

Thanks Steve, makes perfect sense, thank you

[Jim Eshelman]

I only use the North Node in my work, I follow the German School of Astrologers (Cosmobiologists). I don’t use the south node, only the North Node... The German Schools did not recognize the South Node as a true valid symbolic factor

I'd say this same thing a little differently: The German schools (like Steve and many of us) only write the North Node on their charts and make no distinction between the nature of the north and south nodes. They actually use the south node simply because, on the 90° dial, it's the same place as the north... and is given the same meaning. (It's silly to draw both of them in the same place.)

This is in contrast to Tropical astrology's most common approach, and Hindu astrology's routine approach, which give different meanings to the North and South Nodes.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim for a better explanation .

Katy, to demonstrate how I use the Node in my life, I will offer a moment in TIME when the most fortunate business contact ever came into my life over a “squawk box” from the Soybean Pit at the Chicago Board of Trade while I was sitting in a Brokerage office with a colleague in Boaz, Alabama at 2:05 PM Nov 22, 1976. Here is my Natal Chart (inside wheel) and the transits (outside wheel) at this moment in my life, only Jupiter & Node displayed.

https://ibb.co/Xxqw0qP

Note: t Jupiter was partile conjunct my North Node at this moment of TIME in my life.
From Ebertin’s book of “Combinations of Stellar Influences” (German School of Astrology) it says about

Jupiter-Dragon’s Head (North Node):
Principle: Good connections/contact.
Probable Manifestations: Entering into advantageous associations, gaining advantages in business with other people, the good luck to find a good partner.

What happened within 10 minutes of time talking over a “squawk box” I made a verbal business deal with a man named Henry who I had never met. Henry guided me over the next few months making me and my other business associates $. Of course I was born with a Jupiter-Node opposition on my Natal Horizon and the most fortunate contact that was brought into my life was Gayle my wife of 52 years .

If you will run a transit chart for Nov 22 at 2:05 PM for Boaz, Alabama, you will note a few more very interesting partile aspected transits to my Natal Chart:
t. Sun 06, 14 Scorpio
t. Mars 06, 53 Scorpio
Natal MC 06, 34 Leo
t. Mercury 14, 57 Scorpio
Natal Moon 15,22 Scorpio

It was a day and time/moment in my life I will never forget . My 1976 Sidereal Solar Return was even more stunning but that would take too much space here to explain. I will try to post in the Sidereal Solar Return topic later.

[KatyMayStrong]

Thanks for the great example, Steve. It highlights the value of the node very well. The reason I first asked is because I noticed that the t. Node was exactly square the composite chart meridian axis in the week before and after we emigrated from Australia to the U.K. (more than a decade ago now). I’ve previously seen other transits affect our composite chart angles for other events and thought there must be something indicating when we moved our family and our life together across the globe. Although there are other indicators I was looking for something to the meridian angles in particular and the t.node was the closest thing I could find. I don’t actually use composite charts very often but I was curious in this instance.

[SteveS]

Katy wrote:

I don’t actually use composite charts very often but I was curious in this instance.

I understand Katy, me too—very little experience with composite charts. However, I did a little work with my wife’s & I composite and was impressed with how well it responded to certain indicators throughout our long marriage—especially when we were in business together.
Katy wrote:

I’ve previously seen other transits affect our composite chart angles for other events and thought there must be something indicating when we moved our family and our life together across the globe.

I hear you Katy. As a family unit I am guessing there would be no better method for investigating a family move “across the globe” than methods with the Family’s composite chart. I will try to remember to go back and try to find my post when I briefly looked at certain composite methods for wife and I. Have you read Jim's topic on progressed composite charts here?: viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5101

[KatyMayStrong]

Thanks Steve, I haven’t yet but I’ll definitely have a look this week. There’s so much great information here. I finished Ken Bowser’s Workbook last year (which I thoroughly enjoyed and recommend) and I’m still re-working all the charts of my nearest and dearest since learning new techniques from Ken (taking longer than hoped in the midst of life demands etc). Ken recommended this site to me to explore and so here I am!

Regarding progressed composites: do I have to do a relocated progressed chart for the relevant party? My husband was born in the U.K. and I was born in Oz. For that matter, when I look at my current progressed chart, ought I be looking at the relocated version, for the differing angle significance?

[Jim Eshelman]

(I thought this might be of interest on this thread. It is the section I just finished today on the nodes for the large book I'm writing.)

Moon's Nodes: The Dragon's Head and Tail

Node (from the Latin nodus, “knot”) means one of the two opposing places where two circles intersect, especially where one planet’s orbit crosses another plane. For example, Moon’s nodes are the two opposing points where Moon’s orbit crosses the ecliptic (to which it is inclined by about 5°).

The node marking where Moon passes from south latitude to north latitude is called the north or ascending node. The opposite point, where Moon passes from north latitude to south latitude, is called the south or descending node. These points are always exactly opposite each other: For example, my lunar north node is 15Sg29, so we immediately know that the south node is 15Ge29. The nodal axis backs around the zodiac every 18.6 years, or just over 1.5 years per sign, about halfway between the orbital periods of Jupiter and Saturn. (If you use Moon’s nodes astrologically, you might want to think of them as a planet halfway between Jupiter and Saturn.)

Moon’s nodes have geophysical importance aside from any possible astrological significance. For example, they are part of the equation for predicting tides. Perhaps for reasons related to the tides, they have a significant role in weather patterns.

They are also fundamental in identifying solar and lunar eclipses, which only occur when a new moon (Sun-Moon conjunction) or full moon (Sun-Moon opposition) occurs close to the nodes. This surely is why they caught astrologers’ attention in the first place. Because of a legend that an eclipse occurred because a great celestial dragon temporarily devoured the Sun or Moon, the north node came to be called the Dragon’s Head (Latin Caput Draconis) and the south node the Dragon’s Tail (Latin Cauda Draconis); or simply Caput and Cauda.

Since at least the late first millennium, astrologers of both East and West have ascribed astrological significance to Moon’s nodes, though with frequently shifting and varying theories of what they mean. In Indian astrology, Caput and Cauda join the seven ancient planets as the nine planets of traditional Hindu astrology. They were also used by Western astrologers through Medieval times. One can understand that before Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto were discovered, when only seven factors filled a chart, having two more objects on the wheel was attractive.

However, this popularity in both West and East is the first example of their varying interpretations. The most common interpretation in the West was that Caput was like Jupiter (a benefic) and Cauda like Saturn (a malefic). In India, though, both were considered malefics, akin to Mars and Saturn, respectively. Both of these interpretations fail in practice.

Insight into the real astrological nature of Moon’s nodes finally broke through with the original 20th work of two German astrology schools, the Hamburg school of Alfred Witte (now called Uranian Astrology) and Reinhold Ebertin’s Cosmobiology. Witte, around World War I, defined the nodes as meaning unions, connection, junction, and communication. Writing in World War II, Ebertin phrased the same ideas as “association or alliance.”

In other words: As node means “knot,” understand Moon’s nodes as meaning ties or connections. The type of relationship is not specified: It is not, for example, a love relationship (unless Venus is connected), an emotional relationship (unless Moon is involved), or a successful business relationship (except with Jupiter). In the most neutral way possible, the nodes mean ties or connections.

Experience over five decades of familiarity with Ebertin’s work has confirmed this meaning. I accept it fully.

Notice, though, that there is no psychological force in this interpretation. I once thought that, being Moon’s nodes, these must have emotional force. Evidence does not support this view. Node contacts feel more like the neutral meaning of a major angle (horizon or meridian) than like a planet. They do not impart unique character traits. Nodal draws to connect are not, for example, the same as Venus’ need for affiliation, Mars’ need for a worthy opponent, Jupiter’s need for social inclusion, or any similar idea: They are simply a signal of association, connection, or relationship.

With this implication of ties, connections, and associations, I accept Moon’s nodes as astrologically valid. However, I almost never include them in charts. As with other factors mentioned above, I get too little information from them to add one more object on a chart wheel. Some of my colleagues think I am missing something important because the exact information nodes give is important to them. You can make your own decision about this, of course.

By the way, another common interpretation of the nodes is that they are inherently karmic. In practice, this generally means that astrologers who use this distinction think they provide clues to past life connections and events. My world view includes accepting reincarnation and seeing the inseparability of cause and effect coiling through our lives. However, I encourage skepticism on any astrological factors given “karmic” interpretations because, usually, you can-not objectively confirm them. (Such interpretations certainly were not derived from observation.) On the other hand, the nodes’ simple meaning of ties and connection is sufficient to explain any otherwise in-explicable sense of connection felt when meeting someone. I suggest that you go with a simpler, confirmable view before seeking an esoteric view.

[SteveS]

Katy wrote:

Thanks Steve, I haven’t yet but I’ll definitely have a look this week. There’s so much great information here. I finished Ken Bowser’s Workbook last year (which I thoroughly enjoyed and recommend) and I’m still re-working all the charts of my nearest and dearest since learning new techniques from Ken (taking longer than hoped in the midst of life demands etc). Ken recommended this site to me to explore and so here I am!

Welcome to a lifetime of learning Katy. Sidereal Astrology is a gold mine of astrological knowledge, and we are lucky to have Jim explain/answer our questions.
Katy wrote:

Regarding progressed composites: do I have to do a relocated progressed chart for the relevant party? My husband was born in the U.K. and I was born in Oz. For that matter, when I look at my current progressed chart, ought I be looking at the relocated version, for the differing angle significance?

I have no experience with progressed composites except what I have absorbed in the topic on composites charts, which was most interesting with my looks-see at em. As far as relocating or not progressed charts, I don’t know for sure but would lean to not relocating progressed charts. Jim would probably have a better take on this with his experiences. It seems I remember many years ago I looked at a major event in a native’s life pertaining to their progressed natal chart and came to the conclusion you do not relocate progressed charts for the Natal. I will try to find that example and post here for our consumption.

Thanks Jim for your most excellent input on the Moon’s Node above, the best explanation I have ever read .

[KatyMayStrong]

Thank you both, Jim and Steve. It’s a thought-provoking summation of the nodes, and one I shall consider going forward.

I started studying astrology in my early 20’s, beginning with tropical, and then with two excellent Australian schools from late mid-late 20’s but took a break from when I had children for about 8 yrs, or so. During my hiatus I stumbled across a brief but succinct article on sidereal which led me to re-examine my own chart through a sidereal lens and I was thunder-struck by the resonance. I made the switch completely after looking at everybody’s charts who I know personally. That led me to Ken and his workbook and then here. The information here is great. And I look forward to exploring the site further. I’m 50yo next year, so that’s about 30yrs of astrology (about 20yrs since formal study commenced, with the aforementioned ~8yr break for family reasons). I’ve been strictly sidereal for about 5-6 years but haven’t had a community to discuss ideas with, so I’m very glad to have found this group.

I look forward to your book, Jim!

[KatyMayStrong]

In regards to a progressed relocated chart, I have a wonderful opportunity to observe as I have Jupiter approaching the P+R chart’s MC in about 15 mths time… I would imagine if it holds any significance I should note something going on during that time.

[SteveS]

Katy wrote:

In regards to a progressed relocated chart, I have a wonderful opportunity to observe as I have Jupiter approaching the P+R chart’s MC in about 15 mths time… I would imagine if it holds any significance I should note something going on during that time.

Keep us informed Katy. Like I have stated, I have very little experience with relocated progressed composite charts or birth place secondary progressed charts vs relocated secondary progressed charts.
Katy, the link below show my wife (Gayle) and I progressed composite chart for July 7 1990 when we sold our Theater as equal partners to Regal Cinemas and finally had enough $ to relax and enjoy life with some traveling and finally finished renovating our old historical Summer Cottage (bought in 1984) built in 1888. This progressed composite chart (link below) was computed with our birth locations.

Note the stunning partile T-Square of Moon-Jupiter-Neptune. I am wondering if this was the only time in our 52 years of marriage we experienced a partile Moon-Jupiter 0 90 180 (which are the main aspects used in Sidereal Astrology) in our progressed composite chart ? If so, this progressed composite becomes even more stunning because it was the most $ we ever had as a husband-wife team. Composite Sun partile conjunct my Natal Jupiter.

Gayle and I progressed composites chart for July 7 1990 when we sold our business:

https://ibb.co/P118zjR

[Jim Eshelman]

Progressed Moon aspects in thr composite occur exactly as often as for a personal chart, meaning every 7 years about. This one, though, was probably unique for the Jupiter-Neptune square.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim.

[Jim Eshelman]

I quit using progressions of composites (or, rather, never settled into them) not because they don't work but because they don't work reliably - because I couldn't count on strong activity in the composite progressions and transits to produce corresponding strong expressions in the relationship and because several (what felt to be) significant points in a relationship had no corresponding progressions or transits.

Nonetheless, when they're on, they're often REALLY on. For Marion's and my wedding, for example (planned with no attention to the composite at all), using birthplace angles, we find:

21°09' Tau - c MC
21°42' Tau - c Moon

23°45' Sco - p Mars
24°46' Leo - p Venus
24°50' Leo - p Asc

10°47' Tau - c Jupiter
11°38' Leo - p Moon

I guess Venus has been hanging near that Ascendant for years - I'd have to do some work to figure out when it moved in and out of orb. Back in 2001 when we met, it was already within a degree and a half about. For the later event that brought us together as a possible couple, the progressions are few - one only - but symbolically correct (entirely contained within the progessions):

14°29' Leo - p Asc
14°44' Tau - p Jupiter
14°49' Sco - p Mars

[KatyMayStrong]

Thanks guys, great examples. Just as an aside, do you note transits *from* the node. It’s probably discussed somewhere else on this site, I’m guessing…

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks guys, great examples. Just as an aside, do you note transits *from* the node. It’s probably discussed somewhere else on this site, I’m guessing…

To and by are the same. - I don't bother watching either of these even for myself (after watching them for several years, day-by-day, month in and out) since they never amounted to anything of any substance.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Nonetheless, when they're on, they're often REALLY on.

I totally agree. The Progressed Composite Chart appears to only pick-off the 1 or 2 big events in a relationships life. When circumstances seem to be happening in a relationship's life that feels really important would be the only time I would take a look at the Composite Chart.

[KatyMayStrong]

Jim wrote:

Nonetheless, when they're on, they're often REALLY on.

I totally agree. The Progressed Composite Chart appears to only pick-off the 1 or 2 big events in a relationships life. When circumstances seem to be happening in a relationship's life that feels really important would be the only time I would take a look at the Composite Chart.

That makes sense to me.

[KatyMayStrong]

Thanks guys, great examples. Just as an aside, do you note transits *from* the node. It’s probably discussed somewhere else on this site, I’m guessing…

To and by are the same. - I don't bother watching either of these even for myself (after watching them for several years, day-by-day, month in and out) since they never amounted to anything of any substance.

Good to know. So how do mainly use the nodes? Natal, progressed charts, returns?

[Jim Eshelman]

I don't bother watching either of these even for myself (after watching them for several years, day-by-day, month in and out) since they never amounted to anything of any substance.

Good to know. So how do mainly use the nodes? Natal, progressed charts, returns?

Personally, I barely use them at all. I almost never bother to put them in my charts. I think they are astrologically valid points with the characteristic of links, ties, and associations, but I don't get enough information from them for it to be worth the mental effort to try to integrate one more factor (and it's dozen possible connections) into my view of a chart.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

My view is summarized in the notes above, an early draft of a section from the book I'm currently writing. Other than this "other points" discussion, it's possible they won't appear at all anywhere in the three volumes of the book.
https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=65 ... 843#p54806

Insight into the real astrological nature of Moon’s nodes finally broke through with the original 20th work of two German astrology schools, the Hamburg school of Alfred Witte (now called Uranian Astrology) and Reinhold Ebertin’s Cosmobiology. Witte, around World War I, defined the nodes as meaning unions, connection, junction, and communication. Writing in World War II, Ebertin phrased the same ideas as “association or alliance.”

In other words: As node means “knot,” understand Moon’s nodes as meaning ties or connections. The type of relationship is not specified: It is not, for example, a love relationship (unless Venus is connected), an emotional relationship (unless Moon is involved), or a successful business relationship (except with Jupiter). In the most neutral way possible, the nodes mean ties or connections.

Experience over five decades of familiarity with Ebertin’s work has confirmed this meaning. I accept it fully.

Notice, though, that there is no psychological force in this interpretation... Node contacts feel more like the neutral meaning of a major angle (horizon or meridian) than like a planet. They do not impart unique character traits...

With this implication of ties, connections, and associations, I accept Moon’s nodes as astrologically valid. However, I almost never include them in charts... I get too little information from them to add one more object on a chart wheel...

[KatyMayStrong]

Thanks Jim, I’ve mainly just glanced at them to see if they are extremely close to a conjunction with natal planets, to be honest, which I’ll continue to do. I just like to keep an open mind and keep a wary eye out for them. I enjoyed reading your draft in the post above and look forward to the book.

[SteveS]

Katy, I can only speak for myself and my experiences with Node. IMO, so much depends on the class 1 aspects in your Natal with your Node. I only pay close attentions to Node in my return charts when they are prominent either by class 1 aspects and if close foreground angular, or both. I really pay close attention to Node when I know new contacts are entering my life. I want to see if these new contacts are going to work with my life no big deal ways or benefic ways, or malefic ways.

For example, a few years back I went to a new acupuncturist for the first time with a medical problem that my doc could not solve. I looked at my upcoming Sidereal Lunar Return (SLR) and noticed very benefic aspects with SLR Node for date of appointment. As it turned out, this acupuncturists healed my medical condition in very benefic ways. I asked for her birth data and she was glad to give it to me---then I ran a synastry chart and WOW I was floored. It gave me a warm fuzzy feeling that I had made a very benefic new contact. I will try to hunt down these charts to post.

[KatyMayStrong]

Great example again Steve. Yes, you’re right, anything touching the angles closely should always be paid attention to!

[SteveS]

Katy, my Jan 2 2019 Sidereal Solar Return (SLR) hooked me up (connected) with two new women contacts (Venus) who were natural born healers. Both these women symbolized Venus in my 1/2/2019 SLR which was partile ON my Natal Jupiter-Node axis. Both of these women (Kelly & Ashely-new Node contacts) played a huge role in my life for healing a major medical problem in my life which the conventional medical establishment had no clue how to heal. The link below is a bi-wheel with Natal inside wheel & Jan 2 2019 SLR outside wheel showing this angular Venus-Jupiter- Node hit.

https://ibb.co/LgYfgz8

For a detailed explanation the following link explains as it was happening in my life in Jan 2019:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2720

Anyway, an excellent example IMHO how one’s natal node can interact with SLRs .