Parans - Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:37 am

IMHO, by studying other charts and a close examination of my own Natal Chart, the hidden (“potential”) Parans in a Natal should not be overlooked by the astrologer or interested native. In many cases it is these hidden potential Parans or mundane aspects which explains very important aspects/issues for our life.

Ken Bowser’s excellent You Tube Video on Mundane Aspects (26 min) shows a couple of important examples for this astrological methodology:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaoIxIyF3ao

If anyone is interested in their 1 degree orb Potential Parans in their Natal, let me know and I will be glad to post for you.

Note: Ken allows up to a 2 degree orb for these type Parans. My software is defauted to 1 degree orb, but if you want to allow Ken's same 2 degree orb, let me know--no problem.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:03 am

So here's what I think is the main question: Important for what exactly? Character? Typical events? Both?

(I'm playing Devil's advocate to stir the discussion. I have more complicated views than I could summarize in a short post from my phone this morning - I'm at work.)

Are these (like mundane aspects) interchangeable with ecliptical aspects in every way? Or do they serve specific, narrower purposes?

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:38 am

Jim wrote:

(I'm playing Devil's advocate to stir the discussion.

Indeed! Good question Jim. IMO, by paying close attention to my potential natal parans for all the years since I first learned about em, and now trying to make a final conclusion about em late in my life, I think they have a lot to do with thinking processes of our daily routine thoughts with our psyche. They are in certain respects more ingranined into our souls with our destiny.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:52 am

I don't know what you mean by thinking processes ot daily thoughts. It seems you are connecting them to events, but I'm unclear whether you are connecting them to character.

Also, are you referring to birthplace only, residence only, or both separately?

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:11 am

My parans for LA, using a partile orb and excluding (for the moment) aspects already existing ecliptically, adds:

Sun sq my Jupiter-Uranus (17' and 49')
Mrrcury sq Mars (18')
Saturn sq Uranus (50') - Sa-Ju is 63'

I don't think I'm more Me-MA than I was at birthplace. I have had more EVENTS in LA that could be attributed to Su-Ju-Ur, but it's hard to say Su-Ju and Su-Ur describe my character more since I've been here.

For birthplace, the only partile parang that is not an ecliptical aspect is Mars square Saturn. That fits birthplace better, but isn't something I've carried forward in my life since moving. (Also, though Mars op Jupiter-Uranus exists ecliptically, it's partile by paran.)

OTOH I have a friend whose life became very narrow, restricted, and unhappy in LA. No logical reason and no astrological reason Except there is a Sun-Saturn paran at this latitude.

FlorencedeZ. · Post by **FlorencedeZ.** » Sat Aug 19, 2023 9:10 am

SteveS wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:37 am If anyone is interested in their 1 degree orb Potential Parans in their Natal, let me know and I will be glad to post for you.

Hi Steve,
Would love it. I actually never looked at mine before. Birthplace and residence are the same. Thanks a lot.
Regards, Flo

LeiLei · Post by **LeiLei** » Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:18 am

SteveS wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:37 am
If anyone is interested in their 1 degree orb Potential Parans in their Natal, let me know and I will be glad to post for you.

Hi Steve, I'm interested when you have time. I'd also be interested in learning how to calculate them myself because there's several locations I'd like to check.

Current Residence: Morgantown, WV
Birthplace: Decatur, Ga (moved to Stone Mountain, Ga about 3 years old - not far from Decatur so this may not matter much).
I've lived in a few different places in my lifetime. It would be interesting if I had something negative in Orlando, FL where I lived for 5 years & strongly disliked. Here in Morgantown, WV I feel very stuck but I've attributed that to my Sun-Nep sextile becoming a partile square. I adored living in Oriental, NC where interestingly my foreground Venus slipped into the middleground. It was the only place I ever lived where I felt sad (a little heart broken actually) to leave.

ODdOnLifeItself · Post by **ODdOnLifeItself** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:15 am

Thanks for that, Steve. The video was interesting and well put together.

I noticed that Ken used the normal "planetary sort speculum" in his presentation. This "possible parans" search seems to arrive at the same information directly.

[Combo --- RA-------Orb---Sid Time--L.Time---RA Long]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Venus Rise 038 36 0 43 02:34:27 08:45:39 051w34
+ Neptune Ic
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Chiron Set 068 12 0 00 04:32:50 10:43:43 021w58
+ Jupiter Set
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Spica Rise 120 04 0 54 08:00:16 14:10:34 029e52
+ Moon Mc
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Vega Rise 149 57 0 47 09:59:48 16:09:47 059e46
+ Uranus Mc
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mars Set 159 42 0 47 10:38:48 16:48:40 069e30
+ Chiron Ic
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jupiter Ic 164 39 0 20 10:58:39 17:08:28 074e28
+ Pluto Mc
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Algol Ic 226 36 0 21 15:06:25 21:15:33 136e25
+ Moon Set
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Uranus Set 251 04 0 37 16:44:17 22:53:09 160e53
+ Regulus Set
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Regulus Set 251 41 0 35 16:46:44 22:55:36 161e29
+ Chiron Rise
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Spica Set 282 00 0 00 18:48:00 01:00:28 168w10
+ Sun Ic
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Regulus Ic 331 45 0 20 22:07:02 04:18:58 118w25
+ Mercury Rise
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jupiter Mc 344 39 0 20 22:58:39 05:10:26 105w31
+ Pluto Ic
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's look at one example...

Uranus Set 251 04 0 37 16:44:17 22:53:09 160e53
+ Regulus Set

Using the normal (Bowser) approach:

Uranus Set 16:43:01 (sidereal time)
Regulus Set 16:45:32

I notice the possible parans search gives the sidereal and local time of the midpoint in time, between the two factors.

I find it interesting that Chiron set and then a mere two seconds later Jupiter set. (in ecliptic longitude, they're about 2° apart)

ODdOnLifeItself · Post by **ODdOnLifeItself** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:25 am

Is there any relevance to these positions in a relocated chart?

I notice some disappear, some remain, and there's a new one or two...

Uranus rising as Algol culminates? The rest seemed so beautiful. lol

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 4:49 am

Jim wrote:

I don't know what you mean by thinking processes ot daily thoughts. It seems you are connecting them to events, but I'm unclear whether you are connecting them to character.

No, I am not connecting them to events, only a personality trait type as to “Who am I” and what/why I am that type of individual being. Since this methodology has to do with the daily diurnal rotation of the Earth on its axis in which the local geometry of the daily moving angles would bring certain Natal Planetary configurations to the local angles as a Paran configuration, it has been my experience they have to do with daily psychological molding life impulses. Of course these daily planetary Paran impulses would have to be analyzed by looking at the Natal as a Whole with other important Natal factors. For example: I was born with a non-angular Sun partile 90 Uranus. Of course this is a most important aspect in my Natal by being partile 90 and a major aspect with my Sun. But, this potential Natal Sun-Uranus Paran becomes activated when my Natal Sun rises and my Natal Uranus culminates every day of my life (“daily”) when my 2,50 Virgo Sun rises on the ASC and my 2,06 Gemini Uranus culminates, offering much more potency as a daily molding agent for my true self/identity. This geometry of 2 Virgo rising and 2 Gemini culminating every day at my local residence happens every day of my life and it actually squares the circle, why I don’t really know or understand---you would understand better than me. So, the way I see it, every day of my daily life I am zapped with a Natal Sun-Uranus Paran with the daily rotation of the earth, kinda like a daily brain washing Sun-Uranus effect. This daily zapping molds my personality/character/psyche into a more potent Sun-Uranus type, even more so than the prominent partile 90 of my Natal Sun-Uranus, since Parans are the most potent aspects known in astrology according to Fagan.

Jim wrote:

Also, are you referring to birthplace only, residence only, or both separately?

Not sure about this issue Jim, since I still live close to my birth place and have done so all my life. This is your area of expertise/knowledge Jim. From what I think I understand a change in birth location will change certain birth potential paran configurations. I believe you posted about this on another thread, certain potential parans in our Natals can change when you moved from Indiana to California, maybe it will help us all if you linked that thread to this thread.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 6:15 am

Flo wrote:

Hi Steve,
Would love it. I actually never looked at mine before. Birthplace and residence are the same. Thanks a lot.

Here you go Flo. From the list Janus Software generated with your Natal Chart of 11,22 Sag ASC:
Me MC—Ma Setting 0,43
Sun Setting—Saturn MC 0,48
Me Setting---Neptune Setting 0,14
Moon Setting—Uranus IC 0,48
Mars Rising—Saturn Setting 0,24

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:20 am

ODdOnLifeItself wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:25 am Is there any relevance to these positions in a relocated chart?

I notice some disappear, some remain, and there's a new one or two...

This is the one area that I find them the easiest to objectively confirm in a nativity: In moving from one location to another (specifically, from one latitude to another), potential parans are gained and lost. These often have seemed to immediately snap into place quickly (though I'm far from saying this is always the case).

I was going to let Steve answer the "how do you calculate these?" questions first, but since I'm writing I'll mention that the only software I have that easily calculates these is Solar Fire if I p[emn a chart, click Reports, select Star Parans, then set orb to 0°00'. When you zero out the orb for star parans, you still get the planet table left behind. For example, for my chart relocated to current residence:

Code: Select all

			Rise		Upper		Set		Lower
Parans to Mon			259°39'		350°20'		081°01'		170°20'
Parans to Sun			109°42'		195°16'		280°51'		015°16'
Parans to Mer			140°55'		218°00'		295°05'		038°00'
Parans to Ven			160°27'		232°10'		303°53'		052°10'
Parans to Mar			223°08'		295°23'		007°38'		115°23'
Parans to Jup			014°59'		119°50'		224°42'		299°50'
Parans to Sat			135°58'		217°22'		298°47'		037°22'
Parans to Ura			014°27'		119°37'		224°48'		299°37'
Parans to Nep			119°52'		204°12'		288°32'		024°12'
Parans to Plu			046°09'		152°04'		257°59'		332°04'

This still isn't very useful, so I paste it into Excel and sort it. (It doesn't take all that long but takes just long enough that I almost never do it.) Over the years, I created an Excel template that saves me a minute or two in formatting. The gist, though, is that I copy these numbers into four columns, then sort that column and visually scan for parans.

The intermediate form looks like this:

Code: Select all

Mon	Asc	259°39'	Mon	MC	350°20'	Mon	Dsc	081°01'	Mon	IC	170°20'
Sun	Asc	109°42'	Sun	MC	195°16'	Sun	Dsc	280°51'	Sun	IC	015°16'
Mer	Asc	140°55'	Mer	MC	218°00'	Mer	Dsc	295°05'	Mer	IC	038°00'
Ven	Asc	160°27'	Ven	MC	232°10'	Ven	Dsc	303°53'	Ven	IC	052°10'
Mar	Asc	223°08'	Mar	MC	295°23'	Mar	Dsc	007°38'	Mar	IC	115°23'
Jup	Asc	014°59'	Jup	MC	119°50'	Jup	Dsc	224°42'	Jup	IC	299°50'
Sat	Asc	135°58'	Sat	MC	217°22'	Sat	Dsc	298°47'	Sat	IC	037°22'
Ura	Asc	014°27'	Ura	MC	119°37'	Ura	Dsc	224°48'	Ura	IC	299°37'
Nep	Asc	119°52'	Nep	MC	204°12'	Nep	Dsc	288°32'	Nep	IC	024°12'
Plu	Asc	046°09'	Plu	MC	152°04'	Plu	Dsc	257°59'	Plu	IC	332°04'

The final form looks like the following. I've reformatted a bit for the post, but in reality I just get one long set of columns to scan down.

Code: Select all

Planet	Angle	RAMC		Planet	Angle	RAMC		Planet	Angle	RAMC
Mar	Dsc	007°38'		Sat	Asc	135°58'		Sun	Dsc	280°51'
Ura	Asc	014°27'		Mer	Asc	140°55'		Nep	Dsc	288°32'
Jup	Asc	014°59'		Plu	MC	152°04'		Mer	Dsc	295°05'
Sun	IC	015°16'		Ven	Asc	160°27'		Mar	MC	295°23'
Nep	IC	024°12'		Mon	IC	170°20'		Sat	Dsc	298°47'
Sat	IC	037°22'		Sun	MC	195°16'		Ura	IC	299°37'
Mer	IC	038°00'		Nep	MC	204°12'		Jup	IC	299°50'
Plu	Asc	046°09'		Sat	MC	217°22'		Ven	Dsc	303°53'
Ven	IC	052°10'		Mer	MC	218°00'		Plu	IC	332°04'
Mon	Dsc	081°01'		Mar	Asc	223°08'		Mon	MC	350°20'
Sun	Asc	109°42'		Jup	Dsc	224°42'				
Mar	IC	115°23'		Ura	Dsc	224°48'				
Ura	MC	119°37'		Ven	MC	232°10'				
Jup	MC	119°50'		Plu	Dsc	257°59'				
Nep	Asc	119°52'		Mon	Asc	259°39'

Long-term plans are to have parans added to TMSA (as an optional on-off toggle) just like mundane aspects - so we can REALLY experiment with them routinely. Mike's health has slowed that plan considerably.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:52 am

Jim wrote:

I was going to let Steve answer the "how do you calculate these?"

Jim, I would not have a clue how to calculate these potential parans by hand

. I purchased Janus one year on sale for the sole purpose of giving me a list of potential natal parans and for its more midpoint options than SF.
1: In Janus, you calculate the Natal.
2A: Then click on “Predictive” from the main tool bar.
2B: Then click on “Diurnal Events & Parans”
3: Then with the next window click on “Options” from its main tool bar.
4: Then make sure you click on the circle slot for “Parans” to be defauted when you want a list of potential natal parans.
5: Then click on “OK”
You are now set-up to get a simple list of all potential parans from a Natal or any other chart. The lists automatically calculates Potential Natal Parans of the Planets and for anyone interested in Potential Star Parans to their Natal Planets (which I will do for anyone interested), the list includes them as well. Jim, for those who want to be able to calculate by hand without an astrological program to calculate em---you would have to post these instructions---if you had the time

.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:57 am

SteveS wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 4:49 am No, I am not connecting them to events, only a personality trait type as to “Who am I” and what/why I am that type of individual being.

That's enormously interesting since that's exactly the kind of thing I find hardest to see in them with certainty. I'm not at all saying this isn't so, only that when I tabulate these for a given person this is the sort of thing that either isn't obvious for me or is hard to confirm (even though it's easy to confirm with ecliptical aspects and the rest of how we routinely look at a chart).

Since this methodology has to do with the daily diurnal rotation of the Earth on its axis in which the local geometry of the daily moving angles would bring certain Natal Planetary configurations to the local angles as a Paran configuration, it has been my experience they have to do with daily psychological molding life impulses.

Again, most interesting.

For example: I was born with a non-angular Sun partile 90 Uranus. Of course this is a most important aspect in my Natal by being partile 90 and a major aspect with my Sun. But, this potential Natal Sun-Uranus Paran becomes activated when my Natal Sun rises and my Natal Uranus culminates every day of my life (“daily”) when my 2,50 Virgo Sun rises on the ASC and my 2,06 Gemini Uranus culminates, offering much more potency as a daily molding agent for my true self/identity.

Ah, I see a difference in our thinking. I wouldn't have even thought to consider your Sun-Uranus because you have a 0°44' square anyway. It doesn't need angles: It's enormously powerful anyway (if no such thing as parans existed).

In contrast, when I have looked at these I immediately strip out any parans that already are reasonably close ecliptical aspects since I know those are operative. To test parans, my approach is, "If I strip out everything we already know works, do the things left behind also work?"

For example, if I calculate all your partile-orb potential parans (using birthplace), I get the following list. (To my surprise, your Sun-Uranus only shows once as an outright paran, when Uranus is on MC and Sun rising; though, of course, minor angles are in play if you take either one crossing an angle and the other one square the angle.)

Mars-Neptune sq 0°02' [Asc-IC]
Mercury-Uranus sq 0°04' [MC-Dsc]
Moon-Saturn sq 0°09' [Dsc-IC]
Sun-Uranus sq 0°39' [Asc-MC]
Mercury-Neptune co 0°53' [Dsc]

Because the list is short, I went back and added which angles are involved in case this is important or meaningful. So far, I don't think it's useful, the geometry of the precise co-angularity being the main point.

So, in looking at this for the purpose of assessing whether these form valid aspects, I'd exclude the Sun-Uranus (we already know that's overwhelmingly important) and then ask myself: Given what I know of character and history, does Steve credibly have Mars square Neptune 2', Mercury square Uranus 4', Moon square Saturn 9', and Mercury conjunct Neptune 53'? On a first impression, yes, these seem to me to be credible descriptors of you and your life.

If I go back and stretch this to 2° orb, we get the following additional aspects. (The theory here is that we aren't measuring aspects so much as times of the day, and days of the year, when each planet is within 1° of an angle at the same time.)

Moon-Pluto sq 1°42' & 1°54'
Saturn-Pluto co 1°53'

I'd ignore Saturn-Pluto because we already know you have a viable strong Saturn-Pluto conjunction (3°49' ecliptically and 0°54' mundanely), but the two possible Moon-Pluto aspects are interesting especially since we already found a closer Moon-Saturn. Character considerations aside, I'm thinking of your complex psychological relationship with your mother when I see this.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:17 am

SteveS wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:52 am Jim, I would not have a clue how to calculate these potential parans by hand . I purchased Janus one year on sale for the sole purpose of giving me a list of potential natal parans and for its more midpoint options than SF.

Thanks for this. Janus is such a slow, cumbersome, ill-designed program that I launch it as rarely as possible. It does, however, have a few features other programs don't have, so I'm grateful to have it for research purposes, so I will launch it when I don't have another easy approach.

BTW, the procedure you give for doing this in Janus is slower than the procedure I mention above using Solar Fire and Excel. The SF/Excel approach takes me about 4 minutes to get a list and another minute to read down the list and mark the parans. Janus takes more than 3 minutes just to launch.

Following your procedure with my chart:

1: In Janus, you calculate the Natal.
2: Then click on “Predictive” from the main tool bar.
3: Then with the next window click on “Options” from its main tool bar.

When I click Predictive across the top, I get a drop-down menu that does not have Options on it. Am I doing something wrong?

Janus.png

I do get "Dirunal Events and Parans" on that menu, but it just gives me the same columns I get from SF:

Code: Select all

Diurnal Events: Planet on the angles in planet order
Timing: Right Ascension
Chart RAMC 85 25' 48"
Chart LST 5:41:43
 
Planet                Rise    Mc      Set     Ic
Sun                  110 58  195 16  279 33  015 16  
Moon                 259 26  350 19  081 12  170 19  
Mercury              144 43  217 59  291 15  037 59  
Venus                165 59  232 09  298 19  052 09  
Mars                 228 30  295 23  002 15  115 23  
Jupiter              010 33  119 50  229 07  299 50  
Saturn               138 28  217 22  296 16  037 22  
Uranus               009 54  119 37  229 19  299 37  
Neptune              121 30  204 11  286 53  024 11  
Pluto                041 22  152 04  262 45  332 04

Oh, wait, now I think I see it: You left out a step and I needed to pick "Diurnal Events and Parans" from the first menu, run the report, and THEN go into Options on THAT window. I can then pick Parans etc. (Awkward and inefficient like most things in Janus, but it does the job.) After I edit out fixed stars and a few more extraneous points (that I probably could modify in some menu somewhere), I get the following for my chart for birthplace:

Code: Select all

Parans                    Right    Orb   Sidereal  Local     Earth
                          Ascen          Time      Clock     Longitude
                                                   Time      of RA
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Uranus Rise               010 13   0 38  00:40:55  23:09:06  161w29
 + Jupiter Rise
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Saturn Ic                 037 41   0 37  02:30:44  01:02:32  134w02
 + Mercury Ic
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Uranus Mc                 119 43   0 13  07:58:55  06:29:49  052w00
 + Jupiter Mc
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Saturn Mc                 217 41   0 37  14:30:44  13:00:34  045e57
 + Mercury Mc
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mars Rise                 228 49   0 37  15:15:16  13:44:58  057e05
 + Jupiter Set
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mars Rise                 228 54   0 49  15:15:39  13:45:22  057e10
 + Uranus Set
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jupiter Set               229 13   0 11  15:16:54  13:46:36  057e29
 + Uranus Set
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mars Mc                   295 49   0 53  19:43:19  18:12:17  124e05
 + Saturn Set
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Uranus Ic                 299 43   0 13  19:58:55  18:27:51  127e59
 + Jupiter Ic

This data could be compressed a lot to make it more useful. All I really need from it is:

Jupiter-Uranus co 0°11'
Mercury-Saturn co 0°37'
Mars-Jupiter op 0°37'
Mars-Uranus op 0°49'
Mars-Saturn sq 0°53'

I recommend the SF/Excel process. The above took me more than 10 minutes (more than twice as long). Double checking, here is what I get from that method for my birthplace natal:

Jupiter-Uranus co 12'
Mercury-Saturn co 37'
Mars-Jupiter op 37'
Mars-Uranus op 49'
Mars-Saturn sq 53'

Same list, of course (they should be unless I make a mistake along the way). The first four aspects are already ecliptical aspects, so the one "new" piece of information is the final aspect.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:18 am

Jim wrote:

For example, if I calculate all your partile-orb potential parans (using birthplace), I get the following list. (To my surprise, your Sun-Uranus only shows once as an outright paran, when Uranus is on MC and Sun rising; though, of course, minor angles are in play if you take either one crossing an angle and the other one square the angle.)
Mars-Neptune sq 0°02' [Asc-IC]
Mercury-Uranus sq 0°04' [MC-Dsc]
Moon-Saturn sq 0°09' [Dsc-IC]
Sun-Uranus sq 0°39' [Asc-MC]
Mercury-Neptune co 0°53' [Dsc]

And everyone of em manifested in my entire life powerfully

until I retired

. When I finally achieved my life goals and retired---the negative Moon-Saturn and Mars-Neptune went away. I was then able to devote most all of my time to rock & roll concerts and the study of astrology which I love with a passion, allowed a-lot by your teachings

.

And yes, I understand where you are coming from with the rest of your words. IMO, it’s up to the individual astrologer to decide for themselves if they add anything important for their astrological studies with their individual Natals, they know their immediate environments better than anyone else. No one knows better than themselves what their daily lives are thinking on a daily basis, I know for sure a day does not go by in my life without the strong impulses of Mercury-Uranus and Sun-Uranus absorbing my mind & time. And thats the way I like it

.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:30 am

Jim wrote:

Thanks for this. Janus is such a slow, cumbersome, ill-designed program that I launch it as rarely as possible. It does, however, have a few features other programs don't have, so I'm grateful to have it for research purposes, so I will launch it when I don't have another easy approach.

Same here Jim, I agree, very rarely do I use Janus.
Jim wrote:

BTW, the procedure you give for doing this in Janus is slower than the procedure I mention above using Solar Fire and Excel. The SF/Excel approach takes me about 4 minutes to get a list and another minute to read down the list and mark the parans. Janus takes more than 3 minutes just to launch.

Not the case for me. I have all of my main SF charts in Janus---so when I need to check for a potential parans list I have em before my eyes in under than one minute.
Jim wrote:

When I click Predictive across the top, I get a drop-down menu that does not have Options on it. Am I doing something wrong?

My bad Jim, I left out a step and will go back and edit. When you click predictive scroll down to “Diurnal Events & Parans” and then follow the rest of the steps. Let me know if you get the potential paran lists.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:37 am

LeiLei, here are your potential natal parans for Decatur, Ga.—there are only 2.
Venus Set—Mars Set 0,26
Moon Set—Saturn MC 0,39
For Morgantown (only 2 as well but different ones):
Uranus Set—Pluto Set 0,13
Venus Set --- Chiron Rise 0,05
I don’t work with Chiron symbolism but probably should, but included because I though the symbolism may pique your interest.

I want to come back to everyone and ask some personal questions about the symbolism they are or are not experiencing with their potential natal parans. But first I ask for your permission to ask questions

.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:56 am

SteveS wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:37 am For Morgantown (only 2 as well but different ones):
Uranus Set—Pluto Set 0,13
Venus Set --- Chiron Rise 0,05

I get one more: Jupiter square Pluto. For Morgantown, Jupiter rises at 21°05' and Pluto crosses IC at 231°34', so that's a 0°29' potential paran.

LeiLei · Post by **LeiLei** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:12 am

SteveS wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:37 am
I want to come back to everyone and ask some personal questions about the symbolism they are or are not experiencing with their potential natal parans. But first I ask for your permission to ask questions .

Feel free to ask me questions, Steve.

LeiLei · Post by **LeiLei** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:31 am

SteveS wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:37 am LeiLei, here are your potential natal parans for Decatur, Ga.—there are only 2.
Venus Set—Mars Set 0,26
Moon Set—Saturn MC 0,39
For Morgantown (only 2 as well but different ones):
Uranus Set—Pluto Set 0,13
Venus Set --- Chiron Rise 0,05
I don’t work with Chiron symbolism but probably should, but included because I though the symbolism may pique your interest.

The two for Decatur make a lot of sense, especially Ve-Ma but considering how my MC is structured I can't say I don't already exhibit a lot of Ve-Ma characteristics.
I don't pay much attention to Chiron. What little I've read about Chiron here on this forum, its energy is a bit like a toned down Mars, if I'm remembering correctly? As far as Ur-Pl goes, I've felt extremely restless here in Morgantown, a feeling that has only grown the longer I stay. But I've also had a lot of Uranus transits as well as Pluto transiting my AC. I have absolutely been willing to ignore outside pressures & go my own way. I think I've always been like that though but never really presented with something that would force that kind of decision until I lived here in Morgantown. However it wasn't the place in itself that led to this but the timing.

ODdOnLifeItself · Post by **ODdOnLifeItself** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:33 am

Sure let's hash it out and see what fits... I'm on-board...

It still seems like the direct list in Janus is the quickest way. (3 seconds, no scanning for aspects necessary)

Re: Janus

I've had Solar Fire, Kepler, Win*Star, CCRS92, and others. Janus is still number one. Gets me to what I need in the quickest most elegant way (for me) and is the only one where I don't look at the graphics and go, "why does it have to be so ugly?"

Ultimately, it will hang on what someone wants from the software and which functions have priority. ie. Janus might be perfect for me, that doesn't say anything about it being perfect for anyone else

It does seems to have lots of nice parans options.

LeiLei · Post by **LeiLei** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:45 am

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:56 am I get one more: Jupiter square Pluto. For Morgantown, Jupiter rises at 21°05' and Pluto crosses IC at 231°34', so that's a 0°29' potential paran.

That's an interesting one. I relate to the aspect interpretation in a lot of ways but I've noticed the aspect pop up quite a few times as a discovered mundane aspect. I feel silly & this may be a silly question but are parans linked to discovered mundane aspects? I have several that reoccur that don't exist in my natal: Ve-Pl; Ma-Pl; Ur-Pl; Ju-Pl; Mo-Sa; Ve-Sa. Ve-Ma is frequently much closer than my wide Class 3 conjunction & occasionally Sa-Ne but these I would expect since they actually exist in my natal.

(Side note that may have no bearing, I noticed on TMSA my natal Pluto shows up in my 9th house rather than my 8th house which might explain the very frequent conjunctions with Venus, Mars & Uranus.)

LeiLei · Post by **LeiLei** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:03 am

SteveS wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:37 am If anyone is interested in their 1 degree orb Potential Parans in their Natal, let me know and I will be glad to post for you.

Steve, one more request if you don't mind. I don't have the software to calculate these myself so would you mind checking my son's chart? 09/29/1997 - 6:15 am, current residence: Morgantown WV. Thank you in advance.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:21 am

LeiLei wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:45 am I feel silly & this may be a silly question but are parans linked to discovered mundane aspects?

Somewhat, yes. (No reason to feel silly: It's complicated.)

Natal potential parans are exactly what you are seeing as "discovered" natal mundane aspects AT THE ANGLES. Mid-quadrant, though, there could be other mundane aspects that would never show as parans. (And parans only occur on specific angles, not all of them, e.g., in LA I have Sun on IC when Jupiter-Uranus rises but would not have this on all the other angle sets.)

In a sense, that's what potential parans are all about: They are closely foreground "discovered aspects."

(Side note that may have no bearing, I noticed on TMSA my natal Pluto shows up in my 9th house rather than my 8th house which might explain the very frequent conjunctions with Venus, Mars & Uranus.)

Yes, your Pluto is a 4°20' of the 9th House natally (but 6° later/clockwise at 28°36' of the 8th House for Morgantown). I suspect you are seeing these mundane conjunctions at SETTING rather than the other angles. Here are the setting RAMCs of some of your planets for Morgantown:

Ven 295°00'
Mar 296°14'
Ura 298°43'
Plu 298°57'

Because of Pluto's extreme latitude, at SETTING specifically it can be much "later" than it looks by zodiac. At setting, all of these are squeezed within 3°58'. Another way to say it is that (sticking with Morgantown) your 22°14' Virgo Pluto (16°34' north of the ecliptic) crosses MC, IC, EP-a, and WP-a when the angle is 28°52' Virgo [everywhere on Earth] and, for Morgantown, rises when Asc is 16°55' Virgo and sets when Dsc is - get ready for this! - 21°12' Libra! By comparison, your Venus sets when Dsc is 15°38' Libra, Mars when it's 17°24' Libra, and Uranus when it's 20°52' Libra.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:28 am

LeiLei wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:03 am Steve, one more request if you don't mind. I don't have the software to calculate these myself so would you mind checking my son's chart? 09/29/1997 - 6:15 am, current residence: Morgantown WV. Thank you in advance.

Since I'm in this thread for another answer, I'll give this and Steve can compare to Janus. From SF and Excel, I get TWO Venus-Neptune parans that do not exist in the natal:

Venus-Neptune sq 0°05' [MC-Asc] and 0°44' [Dsc-MC]

If I stretch this to 2°, I also get:

Moon-Pluto 1°37'
Mars-Uranus 1°49'

LeiLei · Post by **LeiLei** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:49 am

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:28 am
LeiLei wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:03 am Steve, one more request if you don't mind. I don't have the software to calculate these myself so would you mind checking my son's chart? 09/29/1997 - 6:15 am, current residence: Morgantown WV. Thank you in advance.
Since I'm in this thread for another answer, I'll give this and Steve can compare to Janus. From SF and Excel, I get TWO Venus-Neptune parans that do not exist in the natal:

Venus-Neptune sq 0°05' [MC-Asc] and 0°44' [Dsc-MC]

If I stretch this to 2°, I also get:

Moon-Pluto 1°37'
Mars-Uranus 1°49'

Thank you Jim. I definitely see the Ve-Ne, most specifically him having high expectations in others & then becoming disillusioned when they fail to meet them. Mo-Pl could be describing his difficulty coming out of his shell since his breakup after an 8 year long relationship. Not sure about Ma-Ur, he has a Class 2 sextile already & his Ma-Pl conjunction (though Class 2) is so strong in him (an energy I recognized during his childhood, long before I discovered astrology), hard to say.

Thanks for your answer & your previous one too, makes everything more clear. I should not be afraid to ask questions from time to time!

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:16 am

Jim wrote:

Since I'm in this thread for another answer, I'll give this and Steve can compare to Janus. From SF and Excel, I get TWO Venus-Neptune parans that do not exist in the natal:

Yes Jim, Janus the same for LeiLei’s son:
Ve MC—Nep Rise 0,04
Ve Set—Nep MC 0,45

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:48 am

LeiLei wrote:

I should not be afraid to ask questions from time to time!

That’s the only way to learn LeiLei

, and thanks for allowing me to ask follow-up questions to you, it’s the best way for me to learn more about these natal potential parans

.
Before I start asking questions to others, I want to explain certain issues in my life pertaining to my potential parans.
Mars-Neptune sq 0°02' [Asc-IC]
Mercury-Uranus sq 0°04' [MC-Dsc]
Moon-Saturn sq 0°09' [Dsc-IC]
Sun-Uranus sq 0°39' [Asc-MC]
Mercury-Neptune co 0°53' [Dsc]
I went through very difficult depressing Moon-Saturn family issues in my life. When I first got into astrology I could not satisfy my mind where in my Natal these very depressing Moon-Saturn family issues were symbolized. But, when I much later discovered the potential importance for a potential natal paran and discovered I had a Moon-Saturn potential paran---this was a big Bingo for me, I didn’t have to go any further that my potential Moon-Saturn paran to know this explained the WHY for all the depressing crap I went through with my two parents and their depressing issues as husband & wife. Also, after my parents went through their bloody divorce, my father turned into a closet case alcoholic which I had to deal with as a son---it was brutal & very depressing.

LeiLei, I notice you also was born in Decatur with a potential Moon-Saturn Paran. Did you go through any type of depressing issues with your Mother/Father family situation? I know you have been divorced and divorces usually are always depressing Moon-Saturn situations?

FlorencedeZ. · Post by **FlorencedeZ.** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 12:49 pm

SteveS wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 6:15 am Here you go Flo. From the list Janus Software generated with your Natal Chart of 11,22 Sag ASC:
Me MC—Ma Setting 0,43
Sun Setting—Saturn MC 0,48
Me Setting---Neptune Setting 0,14
Moon Setting—Uranus IC 0,48
Mars Rising—Saturn Setting 0,24

Thanks a lot Steve.
Yes, I will try to answer your questions.
Most of these are already in my natal.
Me MC-Ma setting is not and I do not see myself in that except perhaps creativity, I do interior design quite a bit but this could also be my Libra Sun. An excess of nervous energy, not really.
Me setting-Neptune setting, not really, quite the opposite I believe.
Sun setting-Saturn yes. This could also be part of Libra Sun.
I am not too keen on these.

Regards, Flo

LeiLei · Post by **LeiLei** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:08 pm

SteveS wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:48 am
LeiLei, I notice you also was born in Decatur with a potential Moon-Saturn Paran. Did you go through any type of depressing issues with your Mother/Father family situation? I know you have been divorced and divorces usually are always depressing Moon-Saturn situations?

My parents were married for 35 years until my father died & they were extremely devoted to each other. However until I was around 8 or 9 years old they were pretty crazy, they partied hard & fought harder. Finally they split up for a short time, my dad moving out. I remember going with my mother house hunting & she would talk of them divorcing very nonchalantly. She only took us to very well off neighborhoods, absolutely beautiful grand old homes - far too expensive & impractical for two people. I think this was the first clue of my mother's manipulative powers. But they reconciled. The story goes my mother went to Florida on a whim & my dad, fearing losing her chased after her, finding her at her hotel & winning her back. And things did change for them from that point forward. So that might explain Mo-Sa & Ve-Ma happening around me in my environment but I think its more potent in their behavior towards me.

When my mother was angry with me, she would ignore me, sometimes for several days. I could walk into the room & she would literally stick her nose in the air & act like I didn't exist. It wasn't until I apologized in a way that was satisfactory to her that I would exist again. My dad on the other hand was impossible to be vulnerable with. He & my mother may have reconciled but once I started talking back, he began unleashing his temper on me. A lot of times, after, he would feel terrible & would cry & beg my forgiveness. This happened enough that I began to feel physically sick but I always forgave because I knew some part of him wasn't really sorry & if I challenged him, it would all just start over again. Besides that as I got older if I ever tried to talk to my father about anything involving my emotions, anything deep, he would be very dismissive. He just had to reduce the significance of any matter I brought to him. So I learned to lie & pretend with my parents. Pretend I was sorry so my mother would acknowledge my existence & lie that I forgave my father to calm things down & pretend that I didn't have feelings & issues & pain that needed to be validated & healed. I think everything I just shared wraps up Mo-Sa & Ve-Ma quite nicely. Might explain why I can't seem to experience Venus as pleasurable as most of you on the forum do.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 4:01 pm

Thanks LeiLei for your feedback. It appears to me your Natal offers most of its malefic symbolism from the potential Moon-Saturn Paran & the Venus-Mars potential Paran, and yes I agree with your we really don’t need the Venus-Mars potential paran because we see so much of your Venus- Mars wrapped around your natal MC with other important direct midpoints involving your MC.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 4:16 pm

Flo wrote:

Most of these are already in my natal.

Yep. I have always looked upon Me-Ma aspects as reflecting good “powers of thought” channeled creatively & positively. Jim has a potential Me-Ma Paran and look at his “powers of thought” through Sidereal Astrology

. I have always looked upon my Me-Nep cnj in my Natal as mainly being channeled creatively through my long career in the commercial theater business and I am sure if we count your Me-Nep potential paran as valid it is being channeled creatively in your design career

.

I am not too keen on these.

I understand Flo. At times our Natals are straight forward with its symbolism, other times Natals seem to be missing key symbolism for major life issues like my Moon-Saturn issues with my Mother/Father/Family with its potential Mo-Sa paran. Or like Ken’s examples in his video. Thanks for your feedback Flo

.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 4:40 pm

SteveS wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 4:16 pm ...other times Natals seem to be missing key symbolism for major life issues like my Moon-Saturn issues with my Mother/Father/Family with its potential Mo-Sa paran.

This is why I asked if you were thinking of these in terms of events. What you are describing here are events, rather than the innate sense of who you are that was first born into the world.

I still think you might be thinking of these mostly in terms of events (with which I would more easily agree) and not in terms of who the innate person is.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:09 am

Jim asked:

This is why I asked if you were thinking of these in terms of events. What you are describing here are events, rather than the innate sense of who you are that was first born into the world.

Yes, now I understand better. I look upon planetary aspects in the Natal as the verbs of astrology pertaining to events in a native’s life. It’s these verbs/events which has much to do at certain times in life with the psychological nature of a native, IMO. With the many years in my life I experienced my Moon-Saturn potential paran psychologically as straight-up depression. This potential Moon-Saturn paran molded a major psychological theme for my life for many years experienced through my parents with their difficulties in their marriage, I was their referee and it was a very tiring/depressing Moon-Saturn experience.

I still think you might be thinking of these mostly in terms of events (with which I would more easily agree) and not in terms of who the innate person is.

Yes, indeed! My practice of astrology is centered more on events than who the innate person is. I am much more interested in the verbs (actions) of astrology than the signs (innate sense) of astrology. This is why I asked LeiLei how she experienced her potential Moon-Saturn Paran with events in her life-- so I could compare to my Moon-Saturn. By my studies of astrology, I think in many cases Moon-Saturn Natal signatures have to do with difficult family issues. For a long time I have been wanting to open-up a topic on potential parans in a Natal Chart but am a poor writer (choice of words) for explaining my thoughts on an astrological subject. But when I found Ken’s video on potential parans I thought he put on a great presentation on potential parans. I let Ken do the explaining with his words on potential parans in a natal

.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:58 am

ODdOn wrote:

I noticed that Ken used the normal "planetary sort speculum" in his presentation. This "possible parans" search seems to arrive at the same information directly.

Yes. When I first discovered the use of “planetary sort speculum” to isolate potential parans I started to get cross-eyed by looking at em so much with people in my chart files. And then I discovered Janus offered a straight-up list of potential parans included with its speculum format. Prevented me from going cross-eyed

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:03 am

Relative to certain events in my life, I have experience tragedy with people close to me which caused me a-lot of tormenting emotional pain. There was no astrological methodology which explained to me WHY it was meant for me to experience these tormenting tragedies with other people in my life of 75 years. There is only one methodology I have studied in astrology which explains to me the emotional tormenting pain I have witness with other people close to me, and that is my potential Natal Paran of Mars-Neptune. Combine this hidden Mars-Neptune aspect (potential paran) with the hidden Moon-Saturn aspect (potential paran) in my Natal-- explicitly explains to my astrological mind the severe malefic/tormenting effects I have experience in my life of 75 years. No other astrological methodology explains these malefic effects to me than these two potential parans in my Natal.

PS: Just noticed as I was writting this post there is a partile 180 Mars-Neptune in the heavens all over my natal Sun.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Mon Aug 21, 2023 7:50 am

SteveS wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:03 am Combine this hidden Mars-Neptune aspect (potential paran) with the hidden Moon-Saturn aspect (potential paran) in my Natal-- explicitly explains to my astrological mind the severe malefic/tormenting effects I have experience in my life of 75 years. No other astrological methodology explains these malefic effects to me than these two potential parans in my Natal.

For me, a lot came together when I learned that my already close ecliptical Mars-Neptune square became a 0°07' mundane square (PV longitude) that I had at birthplace but disappeared when I left there. The Mars-Saturn paran at birthplace could cover for some of what I experienced growing up, but the Mars-Neptune is much more accurately descriptive to me.

While these Moon-Saturn and Moon-Pluto parans jump out as parent-related loss and perhaps emotional hardship, I should point out (for the sake of the discussion) that by purely ecliptical aspects you have an afflicted Moon (and one that speaks more to pain, while Moon-Saturn would speak more to loss). Though your Scorpio Moon has many wonderful characteristics that have served you and the people around you positively, the bottom line is that you have Moon in its fall (Scorpio) with partile aspects to two malefics! Moon is sextile Neptune 0°39' and octile Mars 0°32'. We aren't used to thinking of sextiles as quite so intensive but, the bottom line, your Moon is in an unfriendly constellation with partile aspects to two malefics. (The other aspects being moderate soft aspects to Mercury and Pluto.) - For the distinctly father elements, you have the partile mundane (PV longitude) Saturn-Pluto conjunction.

This is the sort of thing that makes this one-by-one chart exploration difficult: We often have multiple paths to the same inference, making it harder to rule out (or rule in) alternate ways of seeing the same thing.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Mon Aug 21, 2023 8:41 am

Steve, I wonder if you might be interested in a way I invented in the '70s or '80s for scoring relative strength of parans.

I was testing what seemed to be Fagan's point of view on aspects (at least, at certain times): He specifically said that only the conjunction, the opposition, and the paran-that square are valid. On close consideration, it seemed he was really saying that conjunction, opposition, and square by paran were valid (but he thought the conjunction and opposition usually would come out the same either way). I noticed a couple of things: First, there was an assumption that conjunctions and oppositions were stronger than squares; and, second, there were usually more of them! (Often four instances of them by paran over the course of a day.) Perhaps conjunctions and oppositions weren't more important except that they seemed stronger when there were multiple examples of the same aspect in a given chart.

I should say in advance that I no longer thing this was valid because I don't agree with Fagan's premise. In a natal chart, all the major aspects (and a few minor ones: the 45° series) are valid and interweave complexly. Nonetheless, from a paran point of view, how might we judge the relative strength of these?

THE METHOD: (1) Subtract the actual orb of a paran-aspect from the maximum you would allow in minutes, e.g., if you allow a 1° orb and have a 21' paran, then it has a strength of 39' (39 points): 60' - 21' = 39'. (2) Do this for every paran, including multiple examples of the same aspect.

Using my parans for birthplace, and a 2° orb, I subtract the actual orbs from 120' and get:

Jupiter-Uranus co 0°38' - 0°13' - 0°12' - 0°13'
Mars-Jupiter op 0°37'
Mercury-Saturn co 0°38' - 0°38'
Mars-Uranus op 0°49'
Mars-Saturn sq 0°53'
Venus-Uranus sq 1°18'
Venus-Jupiter sq 1°31'
Jupiter-Neptune sq 1°40'
Uranus-Neptune sq 1°53'

Notice that my Jupiter-Uranus conjunction occurs four times within 2° - on every angle - while my Mercury-Saturn conjunction, being more separate in latitude, only occurs twice (*on MC and IC, but not at the horizon). The others are all singletons. Applying the point system, Jupiter-Uranus gets 82 + 107 + 108 + 107 = 404 points [subtracting each orb from 120'], overwhelming everything else. - Notice that my 0°13' ecliptical Venus-Pluto square and close Mars-Neptune don't even appear. (These are some of the reasons I ended up concluding this wasn't a good system.) Anyway, the final scoring - one way of looking at "all the aspects in my natal chart" - comes out like this:

404 - Jupiter-Uranus co
164 - Mercury-Saturn co
83 - Mars-Jupiter op
71 - Mars-Uranus op
67 - Mars-Saturn sq
42 - Venus-Uranus sq
29 - Venus-Jupiter sq
20' - Jupiter-Neptune sq
7 - Uranus-Neptune sq

This may not be worth any further time, though it was a way to test Fagan's angle that only parans mattered, which boiled down in practice to conjunctions, oppositions, and mundane squares. It's too narrow. If I had to go with a "mundane only" approach (which I think is too narrow), I do much better with my mundoscope aspects:

0°07' - Mars-Neptune sq
0°21' - Jupiter-Uranus co
1°14' - Venus-Pluto sq
3°32' - Mercury-Saturn co
4°53' - Mars-Uranus op
4°59' - Uranus-Neptune sq
5°14' - Mars-Jupiter op

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Tue Aug 22, 2023 4:49 am

Jim wrote:

Though your Scorpio Moon has many wonderful characteristics that have served you and the people around you positively, the bottom line is that you have Moon in its fall (Scorpio) with partile aspects to two malefics! Moon is sextile Neptune 0°39' and octile Mars 0°32'.

Indeed Jim! I am well aware what my Scorpio Moon partile 135 my Mars in the 8H brought these deep seated fated issues into my life, it was a major headache and caused me much emotional turmoil. But it taught me I had to fight like hell to win my freedom in order to have more time for my passions (studying astrology). Also, to help my mother make it through her life. Unfortunately I was not able to help my father and realized through my study of astrology I had to seperate myself from him to keep my sanity and to protect my mother.
Jim wrote:

This is the sort of thing that makes this one-by-one chart exploration difficult: We often have multiple paths to the same inference, making it harder to rule out (or rule in) alternate ways of seeing the same thing.

So true Jim! Different astrologers see different symbolism with different methods but explains the same thing for a native. But I know in a knowing way this for sure: What I had to go through in my life with my Mother/Father was straight-up Moon-Saturn, and that potential Moon-Saturn Paran in my Natal explains perfectly what/why certain very depressing family matters were fated in my life. And that Mars-Neptune potential paran in my natal explains perfectly why that Moon-Saturn potential paran so tormented my sole in a fated manner, it was absoluted brutal in a Mars-Neptune manner. If it was not for my Jupiter rising, I don’t think I would have made it this far in life with my sanity intact.
Jim wrote:

Perhaps conjunctions and oppositions weren't more important except that they seemed stronger when there were multiple examples of the same aspect in a given chart. Notice that my Jupiter-Uranus conjunction occurs four times within 2° - on every angle –

Excellent points Jim! When I first started absorbing your work and realized certain details from your writing were absolutely true, I said to myself—WOW, and then went to your Natal and saw that “reigning” partile conjunction of Jupiter-Uranus and said to myself, “now I understand better.” I knew I was looking at a very unique partile Jupiter-Uranus conjunction but really didn’t understand WHY from an astrological point of view. It could very explain the WHY because your partile Jupiter-Uranus cnj calculates 4 potential parans 2 degrees or less, but this would be virtually impossible to prove. At least we know to be alerted when we see conjunctions and oppositions in a Natal we automatically know potential parans probably exists, how many, we have to check. It could be the more which exists---the more potent its effects in life—but we just don’t know for sure and will never know for sure IMO. When I came to realize that my partile Natal Sun-Uranus 90 was most important for me to understand related to my life, then realized its potential paran only involved my Sun rising & my Uranus culminating, I thought to myself---got to offer more potency in my life—but knew it could never be proven. The final verdict on certain symbolic issues in the astrologer’s Natal can only be judged by the astrologer for themselves with their life and their immediate living environments, for the simple fact---they are the only one living their souls/life. I know this: Not a day goes by in my life that I am not thinking or practicing astrology, and I know it is more so for your life/soul, and that’s why I like hanging out with you on this forum

.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Wed Aug 23, 2023 1:23 am

In the latest edition of Ebertin’s book “Combination of Stellar Influences” there is a footnote on Moon-Saturn:

One is inclined to consider any aspects between the Moon and Saturn as tragic. The negative interpretations are generally correct if the influences of the environment are very strong, if the relationship with the mother is unsatisfactory, the family has been separated, relationships generally are not good or permanent.

My potential Moon-Saturn Paran definitely symbolized a-lot of “tragic separated” issues within my immediate family life. My sister tragically died at the age of 21 in a freak accident, my Mother & Father constantly fought and were eventually separated by a very bloody court divorce, my father became an alcoholic and for the sake of my sanity I separated myself from him, he died under very “tragic” business circumstances as an alcoholic, my mother died through the processes of Alzheimer’s disease with me taking care of her to end at her home, it was a most depressing 3 year period in my life.

As an analytical Sidereal astrologer since potential parans are considered by some prominent Sidereal astrologers to be important Natal aspects, I conclude the main aspect in my Natal which fated my unhappy family upbringing was my potential Moon-Saturn Natal Paran. Do not take this to mean all Moon-Saturn potential parans are “tragic.” My Mars-Neptune potential paran was another important aspect in my Natal which attributed to the tormenting/tragic circumstances I personally experience within my immediate family’s life. It appears my fated destiny was to experience this tragic turmoil within my immediate environment through my family with these potential paran aspects of Moon-Saturn & Mars-Neptune. I know of no other branch of astrology other than Sidereal astrology which teaches aspects in a Natal involving potential parans are important to consider.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:01 pm

I have decided to use a 2 degree orb for potential parans, mainly because of what I recently (today) discovered about my Natal. I was born with a Jupiter-Regulus potential paran of 1,22, and became the King of the Movie Business in my meager birth location of obscure Albertville, Alabama. Also later in life I became the sole owner of my 4 Screen Theater and felt my Kingship even moreso. Also a Sun-Sirius potential paran 1,51 & a Mercury-Sirius potential paran of 1,48.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Thu Aug 24, 2023 7:22 pm

There is good logic to a 2° orb. OTOH, in the examples we've been seeing I have seen several aspects near 1° (say, over 50') start to feel that the feel that they are weaker, a little harder to track, fading.

We should probably track 2° for a while and see what comes out of it.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:27 am

Jim wrote:

There is good logic to a 2° orb.

It is making good logic with my investigations into this methodology, and I think Ken allows a 2 degree orb, you and Ken have a-lot more experience than me.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:21 am

2° produces SO MANY new aspects, though, that it makes assessment harder. Or, in the alternative, it begins overlapping with ecliptical aspects we already know exist (not increasing the number much but creating unnecessary work for less gain). For my own chart for LA, using a 1° orb, I get from Janus:

Jupiter-Neptune 1'
Jupiter-Uranus 5'
Sun-Jupiter 17'
Mercury-Mars 17'
Uranus-Neptune 14'
Mercury-Saturn 37'
Sun-Uranus 49'
Saturn-Uranus 50'

Jupiter-Uranus-Neptune and Mercury-Saturn are close ecliptical aspects in the nativity and the rest are new in LA. It may be important that the close natal Jupiter-Neptune square becomes a 0°01' aspect. Stretching the orb to 2° adds:

Jupiter-Saturn 1°03'
Mars-Jupiter 1°33'
Mars-Uranus 1°39'
Moon-Pluto 1°39'

Half of these already exist ecliptically and two are new. The thing is, the Jupiter-Saturn seems more fitting farther south - in San Diego where I first had conventional full-time adult employment (though I've continued that in a similar form much of my life after coming back to LA full time). The Moon-Pluto rings more bells farther north, in the Bay Area (though there are several ways I get Moon-Pluto in my chart, Mo = Su/Pl being one of them, so this is harder to single out.)

Using birthplace instead, within 1° I get:

Jupiter-Uranus 13'
Mercury-Saturn 37'
Mars-Jupiter 37'
Mars-Uranus 49'
Mars-Saturn 53'

As mentioned earlier, all of these are ecliptical aspects already except Mars-Saturn (and it has to be put in the context of Mars-Jupiter-Uranus). Stretching to 2° for birthplace adds:

Venus-Uranus 1°17'
Venus-Jupiter 1°30'
Jupiter-Neptune 1°39'
Uranus-Neptune 1°52'

All of these already exist as ecliptical aspects, although the two Venus aspects are trines. What's interesting to me (and discourages the wider 2° orb) is that the two Venus aspects - even though the parans only exist at birthplace - really never fit me there. These only came into their own in Los Angeles, where the parans do NOT exist (but Venus is closely angular).

As a single case (much to small a data set), this discourages the idea that the 2° orb is valid (even though there is good logic behind it: both planets are within 1° of an angle at the same time).

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:49 am

SteveS wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:01 pm I have decided to use a 2 degree orb for potential parans, mainly because of what I recently (today) discovered about my Natal. I was born with a Jupiter-Regulus potential paran of 1,22, and became the King of the Movie Business in my meager birth location of obscure Albertville, Alabama. Also later in life I became the sole owner of my 4 Screen Theater and felt my Kingship even moreso. Also a Sun-Sirius potential paran 1,51 & a Mercury-Sirius potential paran of 1,48.

Steve, you might consider that the parans with fixed stars are their own thing - following their own rules - and are not beholden the same orbs as planet-planet parans.

As you may know, I was frustrated (more or less forever) getting useful information from fixed stars until Ken B turned me onto Bernadette Brady's way of treating them - which is to consider that ONLY parans work for fixed stars (no ecliptical aspects at all). While I'm still not blown away routinely by fixed stars this way, I do get a lot more individual cases that blow me away, suggesting this might be the right track. Still, there are SO MANY (I know in Janus you probably only have the few default stars turned on, though that's a small set).

Solar Fire makes so easy to see star parans - there is a standard report for it that is nicely arranged. You just have to select what star list you want to use and the orb. I created my own custom list of 50 or so priority stars. Because there are SO MANY, I've created filtering rules for myself: If a planet has one or more conjunctions with a star, only use conjunctions; if not, allow oppositions; if none, use squares. Once you get a contact (such as a conjunction), allow the others that form a more complex paran configuration. (I'm not saying these are the right rules, just that they are the attempt at sanity that I've picked so far.)

Also in SF, parans to Ascendant rising simply means stars on the angles mundanely at birth. I think measuring the angularity by PV longitude is more accurate when there are differences, but this provides a quick check.

As an example, here is your fixed star report using my star list and a 1° orb. I'll leave out the three outer planets:

Code: Select all

			Rise		Upper		Set		Lower
Parans to Mon			174°24'		247°30'		320°36'		067°30'
 Upper	- Star Upper		246°33'		 ANTARES Alpha Scorpii
 Upper	- Star Lower		248°13'		 ALDEBARAN (Mars) ATauri
 Set	- Star Lower		321°15'		 ALPHARD (Sa/Ve) AHydrae
 Set	- Star Lower		320°13'		 Vela Supercluster
 Lower	- Star Upper		068°13'		 ALDEBARAN (Mars) ATauri
 Lower	- Star Lower		066°33'		 ANTARES Alpha Scorpii
Parans to Sun			086°15'		177°06'		267°57'		357°06'
 Rise	- Star Set		086°00'		 MARKAB Alpha Pegasi
 Rise	- Star Lower		085°35'		 Galactic Center
 Upper	- Star Rise		176°14'		 ANTARES Alpha Scorpii
 Upper	- Star Rise		176°48'		 DENEB Alpha Cygni
 Upper	- Star Upper		176°35'		 DENEBOLA (Sa/Ve) BLeonis
 Upper	- Star Set		176°14'		 Vela Supercluster
 Set	- Star Lower		268°05'		 BETELGEUSE (Ma/Me) AOrionis
 Lower	- Star Rise		357°36'		 CASTOR (Mercury) AGeminii
 Lower	- Star Lower		356°35'		 DENEBOLA (Sa/Ve) BLeonis
Parans to Mer			106°57'		192°56'		278°54'		012°56'
 Upper	- Star Upper		192°56'		 ALIOTH (Mars) E Ursa Major
 Upper	- Star Upper		192°12'		 Galactic North Pole
 Upper	- Star Set		192°31'		 EL NATH (Mars) BTauri
 Upper	- Star Set		193°31'		 MIRFAK Nature: Jup/Sat APersei
 Set	- Star Upper		278°48'		 VEGA Alpha Lyrae
 Lower	- Star Lower		012°56'		 ALIOTH (Mars) E Ursa Major
 Lower	- Star Lower		012°12'		 Galactic North Pole
Parans to Ven			091°25'		181°52'		272°18'		001°52'
 Upper	- Star Lower		181°25'		 ALPHERATZ (Venus) A Andromedae
 Set	- Star Set		272°50'		 ZOSMA
 Lower	- Star Upper		001°25'		 ALPHERATZ (Venus) A Andromedae
 Lower	- Star Set		001°53'		 RASALHAGUE Alpha Ophiuchi
Parans to Mar			009°46'		115°52'		221°58'		295°52'
 Rise	- Star Upper		009°23'		 SCHEDIR (Sa/Ve) A Cass
 Upper	- Star Upper		115°31'		 POLLUX Nature: Mar BGeminii
 Set	- Star Rise		222°30'		 GIEDI (Algiedi) Alpjha Capricornii
 Set	- Star Upper		221°59'		 ZUBEN ELGENUBI Alpha Librae
 Lower	- Star Lower		295°31'		 POLLUX Nature: Mar BGeminii
Parans to Jup			154°19'		231°31'		308°44'		051°31'
 Upper	- Star Set		232°16'		 ACUBENS (Sa/Me) Alpha Cancri
 Set	- Star Rise		308°29'		 ALCYONE (Mo/Ju) Eta Tauri
 Set	- Star Lower		309°20'		 PRAESAEPE Nature: Mar/Mon M44 Cancri
 Lower	- Star Set		050°38'		 FOMALHAUT Alpha Piscis Austrinus
Parans to Sat			039°20'		140°45'		242°11'		320°45'
 Rise	- Star Lower		039°00'		 TOLIMAN Alpha Centauri
 Upper	- Star Rise		140°54'		 UNUKALHAI Alpha Serpentis
 Upper	- Star Upper		141°15'		 ALPHARD (Sa/Ve) AHydrae
 Upper	- Star Upper		140°13'		 Vela Supercluster
 Lower	- Star Lower		321°15'		 ALPHARD (Sa/Ve) AHydrae
 Lower	- Star Lower		320°13'		 Vela Supercluster

Trying to make sense of it, I trim this down by the working rules I mentioned before. Using your Moon as an example, I note there is a conjunction: Moon is on MC (and, of course, also IC) with Antares. That's the one main contact of the five listed. Since we already have a "configuration" going, I note also that when Moon-Antares is on MC, Aldebaran is simultaneously on IC, so I leave that in the mix. I ignore the squares to Alphard and the Vela Supercluster. (I'm not saying they aren't important: I'm saying I have to draw the line somewhere and trimming out the squares when I have stronger aspects seems the place to do it.) Your "trimmed up" list looks like this (still within 1°, so missing the others you listed above):

Code: Select all

			Rise		Upper		Set		Lower
Parans to Mon			174°24'		247°30'		320°36'		067°30'
 Upper	- Star Upper		246°33'		 ANTARES 
 Upper	- Star Lower		248°13'		 ALDEBARAN 
Parans to Sun			086°15'		177°06'		267°57'		357°06'
 Upper	- Star Upper		176°35'		 DENEBOLA 
 Upper	- Star Rise		176°14'		 ANTARES Alpha Scorpii
 Upper	- Star Rise		176°48'		 DENEB Alpha Cygni
Parans to Mer			106°57'		192°56'		278°54'		012°56'
 Upper	- Star Upper		192°56'		 ALIOTH 
 Upper	- Star Upper		192°12'		 Galactic North Pole
Parans to Ven			091°25'		181°52'		272°18'		001°52'
 Set	- Star Set		272°50'		 ZOSMA
Parans to Mar			009°46'		115°52'		221°58'		295°52'
 Upper	- Star Upper		115°31'		 POLLUX 
Parans to Jup			154°19'		231°31'		308°44'		051°31'
 Set	- Star Rise		308°29'		 ALCYONE (Pleiades)
Parans to Sat			039°20'		140°45'		242°11'		320°45'
 Upper	- Star Upper		141°15'		 ALPHARD 
 Upper	- Star Upper		140°13'		 Vela Supercluster

Antares is double-emphasized because not only is it in Right Ascension conjunction with your Moon (meaning they cross MC, IC, EP, and WP together), Antares rises as your Sun crosses MC. The Sun pattern is quite complex, since three major stars are on angles with your Sun at the same time: your Sun is in RA conjunction with Denebola, crossing MC/IC with it, and as they cross MC the stars Antares and Deneb rise together.

176°14' - Antares Asc
176°35' - Denebola MC
176°48' - Deneb Asc
177°06' - Sun MC

These all may be significant.

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:02 am

My stars are crazy complicated this way. Notice, though, that you and I share a few important ones in common. For birthplace (after trimming them; but notice Moon has ONLY squares, so I left them all in. Sun had some strong martial star oppositions, but I deleted them because of the two clear conjunctions):

Code: Select all

			Rise		Upper		Set		Lower
Parans to Mon			259°27'		350°20'		081°13'		170°20'
 Upper	- Star Rise		349°58'		 CASTOR 
 Upper	- Star Rise		350°30'		 GRB 190114C
 Upper	- Star Set		349°23'		 ALPHECCA
 Set	- Star Upper		080°52'		 EL NATH
 Lower	- Star Rise		171°18'		 CEBALRAI
Parans to Sun			110°59'		195°16'		279°34'		015°16'
 Upper	- Star Upper		194°59'		 VINDEMIATRIX
 Set	- Star Set		280°01'		 DENEBOLA
Parans to Mer			144°44'		218°00'		291°15'		038°00'
 Rise	- Star Rise		144°30'		 VEGA 
 Rise	- Star Set		145°03'		 MIRACH
Parans to Ven			166°01'		232°10'		298°19'		052°10'
 Set	- Star Set		297°46'		 ZUBEN ELGENUBI
Parans to Mar			228°31'		295°23'		002°15'		115°23'
 Upper	- Star Lower		295°38'		 POLLUX 
Parans to Jup			010°32'		119°50'		229°08'		299°50'
Parans to Ura			009°54'		119°37'		229°20'		299°37'
 Upper	- Star Rise		120°23'		 SPICA 
 Upper	- Star Set		120°12'		 ALPHERATZ 
 Set	- Star Upper		228°39'		 ZUBEN ELSCHEMALI 
Parans to Sat			138°29'		217°22'		296°16'		037°22'
 Rise	- Star Set		138°24'		 MENKAR
Parans to Asc			085°31'		176°44'		267°58'		356°44'
 Rise	- Star Rise		085°52'		 M87 Black Hole
 Rise	- Star Lower		085°19'		 CEBALRAI Beta Ophiuchi
 Rise	- Star Lower		085°42'		 Galactic Center

When I came to LA, these changed a lot! Here is the trimmed list. Notice that Moon, losing all of her birthplace star parans, has no conjunctions so picks up the star to Aldebaran. Notice that Sun keeps its wine-themed RA conjunction with Vindemiatrix, but also now rises with Arcturus (interesting because, from soon after I came here, people closest to me started calling me "guardian"). Though not listed (because of the conjunctions), in LA my Sun is paran-opposite Algol within 13': If this is meaningful, it's obscurely so (I have a long-standing personal mythos - dreams, visions, etc. - involving Minerva and a different interpretation of the Gorgon's head). Sun is also in simultaneous paran-square to Sirius. I guess I should itemize these since they aren't on the list below. (In any case, my Sun star-parans in LA are surely the most interesting feature.) Venus also has a paran-square to Regulus that is literally on the angles and added under Asc below.

280°38' - Algol Asc
280°47' - Sirius IC
280°51' - Sun Dsc

Code: Select all

			Rise		Upper		Set		Lower
Parans to Mon			259°39'		350°20'		081°01'		170°20'
 Set	- Star Upper		080°52'		 EL NATH
 Lower	- Star Set		169°50'		 ALDEBARAN
Parans to Sun			109°42'		195°16'		280°51'		015°16'
 Rise	- Star Rise		109°37'		 ARCTURUS Alpha Booti
 Upper	- Star Upper		194°59'		 VINDEMIATRIX
Parans to Mer			140°55'		218°00'		295°05'		038°00'
 Rise	- Star Rise		141°03'		 UNUKALHAI 
Parans to Ven			160°27'		232°10'		303°53'		052°10'
 Set	- Star Rise		304°00'		 CAPELLA 
Parans to Mar			223°08'		295°23'		007°38'		115°23'
 Rise	- Star Rise		222°31'		 GIEDI 
Parans to Jup			014°59'		119°50'		224°42'		299°50'
Parans to Ura			014°27'		119°37'		224°48'		299°37'
 Set	- Star Set		225°34'		 ALPHARD 
Parans to Sat			135°58'		217°22'		298°47'		037°22'
 Rise	- Star Set		135°30'		 MIRACH 
 Set	- Star Rise		298°13'		 ALRISHA 
Parans to Asc			053°25'		151°28'		249°31'		331°28'
Parans to Ven			160°27'		232°10'		303°53'		052°10'
 Rise	- Star Rise		053°06'		 REGULUS 
 Rise	- Star Upper		054°02'		 GRB 190114C
 Rise	- Star Lower		053°12'		 ALPHECCA

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:53 am

Jim wrote:

Sun is also in simultaneous paran-square to Sirius. I guess I should itemize these since they aren't on the list below. (In any case, my Sun star-parans in LA are surely the most interesting feature.) Venus also has a paran-square to Regulus that is literally on the angles and added under Asc below.

Bingo!

Post by **Jim Eshelman** » Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:50 am

BTW, I finally figured out that there is a really good reason fixed stars contacts would occur only by paran: They are the ONLY factor astrologers use that is outside of our solar system. There is no reason at all to think they have any responsiveness to the ecliptic, which is entirely a measuring base INSIDE our solar system.

They MIGHT also be relevant in galactic longitude but, of the frameworks we already use easily, the mundane frameworks - PV longitude, parans, and perhaps altitude - are the only ones that are relevant.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:26 pm

Jim wrote:

BTW, I finally figured out that there is a really good reason fixed stars contacts would occur only by paran.

I hear you loud and clear Jim.