Charles Carter's prognostication method?

[SteveS]

Charles Carter was a believer in Primary Directions (PD) and Secondary Progressions (SP) bringing to life as an important event in one’s life, but only if the aspect of that PD or SP was symbolized in the Natal Chart. He labeled the PD & SD as Directions, but understand Carter does not in any of writings use the words “Solar Arc Directions.” This is my understanding reading his section in his book “Principles of Astrology” under the section of “Prognostication.” I could be wrong in my interpretation of what Carter is trying to convey in his section of “Prognostication.” First, I am not a believer in Primary Directions but I realize they are big deals with some astrologers. Secondary Progressions, yes maybe, for sure with SP Moons and their 0 90 180 partile aspects. But, I have yet to isolate a Secondary Progression in my Natal which timed a huge event for my life. But, I damn sure have isolated Solar Arc Directions in my Natal that altered my life in major life altering ways. There is one piece of writing from Carter’s Prognostication section which peaked my interest where he states:

Ordinary aspects in a Radical (Natal) chart may at first sight have no connection with prognostication, but in point of fact no opinion could be more mistaken. It is a cardinal rule that no direction can bring to pass what is not shown in the nativity. Exceptions to this are virtually non-existent. The radical (natal) horoscope limits the operation of directions inexorably, and the latter only bring to manifestation what is already promised by the former. Hence a real understanding of the radix is a necessary forerunner of all successful attempts to look into the future. The radix shows what will happen; and the directions, when.

Since I am a big believer in being forewarned is being forearmed with solid predictive methods of astrology, when I first read Carter’s above words I set about to prove Carter’s words as a solid astrological truth with PDs & SPs Directions. One huge problem: I could not prove Carter's above words as the truth with my Natal Chart, but when I got into Noel Tyl’s book “Solar Arcs” (Directions), I saw the truth of Carter’s above words with one main aspect in my Natal, my partile 135 Moon-Mars aspect, BIG TIME! This is what I want to begin a possible discussion for hopefully learning for all of us with our Natals. I am still somewhat perplexed as to WHY Carter’s above words contains so much truth for my one Natal aspect of Moon-Mars. I welcome constructed criticism and others opinions, as well as their thoughts with their Natal aspects pertaining to Carter’s above quoted words.

[SteveS]

As I have stated above, I have never been able to verify for myself with my Natal Carter’s above quoted words. But when I look at my Solar Arcs in my life, for damn sure, I can verify Carter’s above words using the major guidelines in in Noel Tyl’s book “Solar Arcs” when my Solar Arc Mars Solar Arc partile cnj my r MC in 1985. Both my r Moon and r Mars are Vargottama and when my r Vargottama Mars Solar Arc to my r MC in 1985, the single most important “Life Development” was timed for my entire life of 76 years.

The concept of Vargottama is very powerful and unique tool of predictive astrology. This concept thus establishes a mutual interconnectivity with Natal Charts and show promise for fulfillment in some specific areas of life which otherwise are not so apparent in the nativity. I shall feel earnestly happy, if the savants may draw some benefit from this study to access the powerful influence of the concept off Vargottama in predictive Astrology.

I would be very interested for my own research purposes for any other member of this forum who has a Natal Planet at a Vargottama degree in the Fagan’s/Bradley’s Sidereal Zodiac, and when/if they have experienced a time in their life when their r Vargottama Planet was involved in a partile cnj either with the Vargottama Planet Solar Arc to a r angle or a r angle Solar Arc to a r Vargottama Planet.

Vargottama Degrees:

0 -3,20 Degree Cardinal: Aires, Cancer, Libra, Capricorn
12,20 -16,40 Degree Fixed: Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius
26,40 -30 Degree Mutable: Gemini, Virgo, Sag, Pisces.

[Jim Eshelman]

Charles Carter was a believer in Primary Directions (PD) and Secondary Progressions (SP) bringing to life as an important event in one’s life, but only if the aspect of that PD or SP was symbolized in the Natal Chart.

This isn't exactly what he said: He didn't say the same aspect had to be present. As you correctly quoted, he said that "no direction can bring to pass what is not shown in the nativity." There are many ways the same event can be "shown in the nativity" besides duplicating the same aspect. (For example, Carter certainly would have considered a Mars progression or direction to Mercury to be interchangeable with the nativity having Mars in the 3rd house or aspecting the ruler of the 3rd house. I'm not vouching for this approach, just elaborating what Carter said.) - This approach was common to most British and American astrologers of his era.

He labeled the PD & SD as Directions, but understand Carter does not in any of writings use the words “Solar Arc Directions.”

Looking now, I find (to my surprise - I hadn't mentioned this) that he did mention solar arcs, though (as you say) not with that label. In the same chapter from which you quoted, in section 5, "Symbolic or Fixed-Increment Directions," he mentions several other forms of directions, including: "Others prefer the actual solar motion at the rate of one day = one year, applying this to all bodies." That's solar arcs!

Secondary Progressions, yes maybe, for sure with SP Moons and their 0 90 180 partile aspects. But, I have yet to isolate a Secondary Progression in my Natal which timed a huge event for my life.

This is tricky. Secondary progressions don't necessarily show events in the way you're used to thinking of these arising from (say) solar and lunar returns. It is axiomatic that anything involving interaction with the environment requires a transit. Progressions, in contrast, show what Fagan called incidents, or things innate or incidental to who we are for birth. My favorite analogy is that puberty is an incident - it was programmed in us to occur at a particular stage of life simply as an unfolding of who we were born to be, requiring no trigger from the environment. Some progressions do seem to produce explicit events, though usually these are easily traced to someone having "gotten ready for a thing on their own," or "reached the point in their life" when it was an obvious move.

So, for example, the fact that my progressed Mercury was retrograde from age 7 to 27, marks a particular period of relation to my mental development and work life - a definite preparation stage (even though I was precociously doing many mercurial things) that broke out to run strong when it turned stationary direct. Or my progressed Venus retrograde from 15 to 56, during which time I had important relationships and many Venus adventures, nonetheless marked a "holding back" until the love of my life appeared and our relationship matured a certain way. Progressed Uranus was stationary in 1978 and Pluto in 2004, years that marked dramatic, permanent shifts in the flow of my life.

Notice that these all had to do not with outside events but my readiness, or changes in me. Any number of other exact progressed aspects manifest similarly, some obvious ones being: p Sun to sq r Jupiter-Uranus in the years I got my paper route, started having money, started being "free" every day out on my own and making a bit of money. p Sun conjunct r Mercury and p Mercury-Jupiter sq in late 1979 and early '80 when Mattel hired me for a year to write a product for them (more a mark of my readiness than anything else, and getting paid what at the time was a lot of money). p Mars-Saturn sq in 1984-85 when I took on a couple of years of highly contentious involvement in an organization's politics in order to get specific things done (I succeeded under the next Mercury-Jupiter in '86). A very strong wave of progress in my spiritual training program in 1990-93 under a p Jupiter station and p Sun to natal Venus-Pluto. Starting a magazine I edited (and wrote most of) for several years, launching it within a month of p Mercury co r Mercury. And so on....

Again, notice how these were stages of my road unfolding. Even when they involved people or things outside of me, those were almost incidental, and were only there because of my readiness or pursuing them.

For outright external causation or strong involvement of environmental factors, one needs transits concurrent with progressed aspects, or directly to progressions - like those powerful aspects to progressed Moon. - Or (on a similar note), as Bradley wrote about a different kind of progressions (tertiary):

They should, as with secondaries, always be considered within the reference frame of both natal and transits, especially the latter. Most psychological or strictly "internal" events are sufficiently reflected in tertiary-to-tertiary aspects, but life's most interesting developments usually command involvement with outside agents, persons and forces, which means that transits will usually be found interacting with the tertiary planets.

[Jim Eshelman]

Solar arcs (to return to the topic title) are perfectly suited to demonstrate the "it has to be in the natal" rule because solar arcs entirely copy the configurations (full cosmic state) of the natal planets. This is also true, of course, for all "fixed-increment directions," i.e., systems where the same value is added to all chart factors. (It may be, of course, that solar arcs are the only fixed-increment direction system that works, other than perhaps lunar arcs; but there are many others proposed, such as one degree every four years or every seven years. I doubt these work, but admit they haven't been rigorously checked.)

I would be very interested for my own research purposes for any other member of this forum who has a Natal Planet at a Vargottama degree in the Fagan’s/Bradley’s Sidereal Zodiac, and when/if they have experienced a time in their life when their r Vargottama Planet was involved in a partile cnj either with the Vargottama Planet Solar Arc to a r angle or a r angle Solar Arc to a r Vargottama Planet.

As you know, my Mars is at 28°55' Sagittarius and my Uranus at 3°19'57" Cancer (under the 3°20' mark).

Directed angles to natal Mars June 1981 (Asc) and January 1982 (MC). Nothing in this period (allowing generous orb either direction) that I would call significant and life-altering AND matching the symbolism of Mars unless you want to count my taking the est training in early 1982. Though est was known for being confrontational, I didn't experience it as harsh or any sort of a problem.

Directed angles to natal Uranus (which also means within a few minutes of my Jupiter): Asc to Uranus November 1985, MC to Uranus June 1986. I had risen rapidly in the politics of an organization, had been considered for its world head in September 1985 and (to my great pleasure) lost - then was immediately appointed #2 worldwide and was heavily engaged in its politics for a couple of years, including a significant accomplishment in March '86.

Directed Uranus to natal angles: MC January 2013, Asc July 2013. This was the center of an unusually strong decade for me, but the only significant thing distinctive to Uranus (or Jupiter-Uranus) within orb of these aspects is that I was in a very strong writing period.

Directed Mars to natal angles: MC May 2017, Asc November 2017. Well, I was {nassed} off about and fired up against the Trump administration but, for anything personal... nothing really stands out for the time.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim for your important feedback here, it really helps me understand things better. Carter under his Prognostication section in his book writes:

The Law of Excitation, which is one of the most useful and exact in Astrology, may be thus stated:
If at the time that a progressed body is in aspect to another by direction (now with your above explanation I now understand Carter to mean Solar Arcs as well), either of these bodies forms an aspect by transit with either of the two directional bodies, then this transit will excite the direction into immediate operation. The transits of Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are often very significant of events.

We see in Marion’s Natal she was born with an indirect midpoint of Mars/Uranus = Asc (0,36). Ebertin writes about this midpoint:

An upsetting event, accident, physical injury. Footnote for Mars/Uranus: The midpoint Mars/Uranus is often interpreted as the “operation axis” and this has been substantiated both in the case of directions and transits.

So, we see here an example with Marion's Natal where a "promise" was made for her life with her accident midpoint of Mars/Uranus = Asc. At the time of Marion’s accident (Sept 1 midafternoon) we see her Solar Arc Asc directed to 2,25 Cancer and we know since Solar Arcs involve fixed rate increments for the entire Natal Chart Marion always will carry her Mars/Uranus = Asc with her throughout her life with her Solar Arcs. On the date of her accident we note transiting Pluto at 03:09 Cap (retrograde) partile 180 her Solar Arc Asc and partile 90 her Solar Arc Mars/Uranus. Ebertin writes about Mars/Uranus = Pluto:

Force, violent interventions (for Marion’s injury/surgery).

Jim, is this transiting Pluto at the time of Marion’s accident an example of Carter’s “Law of Excitation” for Marion’s Solar Arc Mars/Uranus = Asc? His words are somewhat confusing to me.
I realize this transiting Pluto was in place for a long period of time and there are many layers of Sidereal Astrology charts we have isolated for Marion’s accident. I for one think her SNQ was the daily chart which timed to the exact day her accident, but I am trying to get a handle for better understanding with Carter’s “Law of Excitation” with Directions. Thanks again Jim for your feedback.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, is this transiting Pluto at the time of Marion’s accident an example of Carter’s “Law of Excitation” for Marion’s Solar Arc Mars/Uranus = Asc? His words are somewhat confusing to me.

It's a good example of what he meant.

OTOH, I'm not convinced this is a legitimate "law," at least with solar arcs. Growing up in astrology, it was more or less gospel that transits had to trigger progressions (and yet transits to non-luminary progressions aren't very responsive most of the time). On the above example: I've never been able to confirm (other than in single case examples) that solar arcs are responsive to transits at all. It seems like they're in different universes. I don't think those work.

However, yet, that's exactly the sort of thing Carter meant.

[SteveS]

I understand Jim. With my limited research there seems to be no consistency with outer planet transits combined with Solar Arcs. I have seen some great examples but not enough consistency.

[Jim Eshelman]

I understand Jim. With my limited research there seems to be no consistency with outer planet transits combined with Solar Arcs. I have seen some great examples but not enough consistency.

What I usually see can be grouped under coincidence in the following sense: Directed planet A aspects natal planet B. At the same time, matching an event, transiting planet C aspects both of them. - But is this really a transit to the solar arc planet? Or are the direction and transit separately, independently hitting the same natal planet the real "meat" of what's happening. I think it's the latter, even though the transiting planet is coincidentally aspect the location of the directed planet.

For example, suppose directed Pluto conjoins natal Venus, showing a time period when relationship beginnings and endings are likely. Then transiting Saturn transits both natal Venus and directed Pluto and somebody close to them dies. What I think is going on there is that there are separate, technically unrelated aspects (d Pl = r Ve AND t Sa = r Ve) but not t Sa = d Pl.

[Jim Eshelman]

As I mentioned above, when I was "growing up" in astrology, the standard wisdom was that progressions set up the big events and, within the term of the progression, transits "triggering" the progressions provide the final timing.

I initially adopted that teaching; then over the years, I've been frustrated with how poorly it works. Life would be grand if it rolled out that way, but it doesn't. Sidereal solar and lunar returns have been much more useful and reliable.

As one example: I had important, fitting progressions for the occasion of Marion's and my wedding. For one thing, it was the exact day of progressed Sun 27°24' Scorpio square natal Moon 27°24' Aquarius - you can't get better than that! Excluding outer-to-outer progressions (like the nearly exact progressed Neptune to natal Jupiter-Uranus), the partile progressions were an aspect often thought negative for relationships but also known to mark "settling down" or "making a devoted connection permanent" - progressed Moon squaring a progressed Venus-Saturn conjunction in the exaltation degree of Saturn (Moon in orb of the Venus but not the Saturn) with a Mercury transit tossed in:

21°03' Sco - p Mercury
21°09' Can - p Moon
21°50' Lib - p Venus
22°28' Lib - p Saturn

These are all quite fine by themselves. What happens, though, if we try to apply the "you must have a transit to these to trigger them" rule? It fails. We would expect a transit at 27°24' Hub hitting p Sun sq r Moon, and/or at 21°-something Rim hitting progressed Moon-Venus (or slightly later for the Venus-Saturn). There were no transiting planets aspecting either pSu+rMo or pMo+pVe.

There was something close, but not partile: t Jupiter was 26°10' Scorpio, partile square Moon as the wedding climaxed; but that's not lose enough for a trigger under the classic rule. (Too bad: It would have been a perfect aspect.) It WAS close enough, though, for my new SLR that occurred later than evening in the midst of the party. I suppose I should count the very fast transit of Venus at 20°21' Aries - square progressed Moon but not in orb of p Venus (i.e., not aspecting the Moon-Venus aspect per se). Perhaps this is good enough and technically triggers the event, but it's an awfully fast planet (there were dozens of fast transits to that degree while the progression was close). At least we get correct planet symbolism in both cases.

OTOH my SLR two hours later had the Moon-Jupiter square as the only thing close to angles besides t Mercury exactly setting.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Sidereal solar and lunar returns have been much more useful and reliable.

Exactly Jim, nothing better on a consistent basics! Solar Arcs for me have been much more useful for me compared to my Secondary Progressions for catching only the few “once in a lifetime” events, but sometimes I see outer planet transits associated with my Natal Angles at the same time of a major Solar Arc event, and sometimes I don’t. With Marion’s accident/injury I saw t Pluto in major aspect to her Solar Arc Asc, and I have seen a few other cases where an outer planet transit was involved with a major event with a Solar Arc angle. We know where Pluto symbolism has to do with shocking events.

I think I have a book of dozens of AA births with major Solar Arc events. Maybe it would be a useful exercise if I started to post some of these events focusing in on outer planet transits to see if we learn anything useful. These examples which I have not looked at only use 0, 90, 180 Solar Arc aspects. If these examples have the location of where the major event took place we could also peek at their SSRs/SLRs. If I do start this exercise I will start with the first example and go down its lists in the order they are written so as not to cherry pick any of em.

[SteveS]

There has been so much repair work being done on our old historical home, I had to move most of my books/other things into a nearby storage facility. I found the book with 40 examples of Solar Arc events/profiles in people’s lives, most are very interesting and with high profile public figures in their times. But I was in error---not all of these 40 births are AA rated births. The author, Frank C Clifford states in his book “The Solar Arc Handbook”:

Although most of the birth data are from official sources (e.g. birth certificate, hospital records, etc.), at times I have noted where I think the birth time might be slightly different because of Solar Arcs and corresponding life events. I hope you’ll find these profiles interesting and I hope they’ll encourage you to engage in further research. Frank lives in London (I think).

Two main personal points of interest I want to research with Frank’s Solar Arc profiles:

1: To test Charles Carter’s “Law of Excitation” where he states for outer planet transits:

The Law of Excitation, which is one of the most useful and exact in Astrology, may be thus stated:
If at the time that a progressed body is in aspect to another by direction (now with your above explanation I now understand Carter to mean Solar Arcs as well), either of these bodies forms an aspect by transit with either of the two directional bodies, then this transit will excite the direction into immediate operation. The transits of Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are often very significant of events (with directions).

Back in Carter’s day, Solar Arcs were not fully developed like they have been by Noel Tyl’s new book “Solar Arcs” written in 2000. Noel states in his book that his research noted in many cases when a major Solar Arc event took place, an outer transiting planet was on a Natal angle (partile or near partile). In this exercise of 40 Clifford’s examples I really want to test Noel’s thinking on outer planet transits to the Natal angles pertaining to Solar Arc events. Clifford has worked with Noel and is a proponent of Noel's Solar Arc work. Also, I have seen where another author (I will try to find his book) has stated that it is important to check for outer planet transits to Solar Arc Directed Natal Angles similar to when Marion (Jim’s wife) recently had her major accident to her angle/foot requiring surgery. At this time t Pluto was partile 180 her Solar Arc Asc.

2: I also want to look at the Sidereal Solar Return (SSRs) when Clifford offers a proper date and location, since major life events with SSRs prove very high % showing par-excellent symbolism for a Solar Arc event as well.

I am sure my analysis/research here will not see all of the layered symbolism involved with the charts I am analyzing, so feel free to jump in anytime to offer your sight. I am sure Jim will see more than me with his analytical mind. I will only try to cover the main themes of the chart’s symbolism involving Solar Arcs and SSRs. Also, any member who would like for us to look at any major life events for their life, feel free to offer your AA birth data and location of major life event.

Coming next: "Cynthia Payne (Madame Cyn's), the late, headline-grabbing hostess and brothel owner. Birth data source: From her to Frank Clifford".

[Jim Eshelman]

I suggest that for each example you change the Subject line (in the same thread) to the name of the person or other identifying label. That way, they are easy to single out and later discussion of the content (if someone uses the Quote button instead of Reply) will always pick up the identifying label.

Otherwise, this will be chaotic!

[SteveS]

Not sure I understand Jim? Are you saying change the “Subject Line” of Re: Charles Carter's prognostication method? If so, this is OK with me, what do you suggest?

[Jim Eshelman]

Not sure I understand Jim? Are you saying change the “Subject Line” of Re: Charles Carter's prognostication method? If so, this is OK with me, what do you suggest?

Exactly. When you start a post (which could be the first of many) on a given example, name it after the person, e.g., if you were studying the example of Richard Nixon for his resignation change the subject line to be Richard Nixon or Richard Nixon - resignation.

I don't know how the cases histories in the book you're studying are labelled, so they may not show the person's actual name. They probably are labelled in any case, even if it's only "Sample 1" <g>.

BTW, for Richard Nixon's resignation, the one direction involving an angle is d Asc sq r Moon (29' ap) with d Uranus oc r Moon (12' ap.). Other concurrent solar arcs paint an interesting picture, especially thinking of Eris as the trickster, perhaps relating to Tricky Dick's trickiness, but with two bizarrely benefic ones:

d Eris co r Saturn 34' sep
d Jupiter co r Venus 24' sep
d Jupiter oc. r Sun 30' ap

In terms of transits as triggers, the one transit to his natal angles was the totally inappropriate (unless "relief") t Jupiter sq r MC 0°59' (perhaps one could say that his good fortune, operating up to that point, was running out that day as Jupiter left orb). In terms of planets involved in solar arcs aspecting themselves, there actually is one terribly interesting one: With d Eris conjunct r Saturn, he also had t Eris octile natal Saturn 21'. (That's interesting.)

[SteveS]

Got it Jim. Looking forward to this topic, it will be fun.

[SteveS]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_Payne (“headline-grabbing hostess of a brothel)
Data Source from Cynthia Payne: From her to Frank Clifford. 12/24/1932; 21:00 GMT; Bognor Regus, England; (50N47, 0W41); ASC 06,03 Leo.

Some prominent Natal Signatures (aspects): “Scorpio Moon; Regulus partile cnj her r ASC, she had personal associations with prominent people, businessmen, lawyers, vicars and MPs. Madam Cyn scandalous (Neptune) trial, imprisonment and campaigns for changes in sex laws kept her in the scandalous (Neptune) news (Mercury) for years, and her life story inspired the films “Wish You Were Here” and “Personal Services.” Note her main themed Natal partile T-SQUARE aspect and Direct Midpoint of Neptune/Node = Mercury 0,45. For sure, this was the “scandalous” (Neptune) Natal Signature which kept her in the News (Mercury) with her prominent brothel contacts (Node). Ebertin for Node/Neptune = Mercury:

Misconceptions about certain associations, false expectations, tendency to make secret arrangements with others and to deceive others.

I would say this is fairly accurate with the Cosmobiology School of thoughts with this midpoint. Cynthia made "secret arrangements" (Neptune) with her clients (Node) and tried to "deceive" the law, which turned into life long scandalous news (Mercury) with the tabloids in London.

First “Life Development” Solar Arc angular contact: Shortly after her 10th birthday of 1942 her Solar Arc ASC partile cnj her Natal Neptune. Her “gentile undemanding” Mother passed away. Cynthia was quoted later in life as saying the wrong parent died. She was placed in “the custody of a remote father, and her affection was rebuffed.”
Cynthia’s Natal (Inside wheel) bi-wheeled with her Solar Arc chart for Dec 24 1942 (outside wheel).

https://ibb.co/nRP6B2N

As we can see with Noel Tyl’s teachings—major “Life Developments” occur when a Natal Angle (ASC) is Solar Arc to a Natal Planet (Neptune). Solar Arc Pluto partile 180 her Natal Saturn symbolizing the terrible burden of living with a “cold father.” For you Chiron fans her Solar Arc Chiron partile 180 her Natal Venus “suggesting the pain/hurt of losing her beloved mother."

I see no outer planet transits acting as Carter’s “Law of Excitation” firing off her Solar Arc Pluto partile 180 her Natal Saturn; but I do see t Uranus 1,09 cnj her Natal MC---score a hit for Noel’s teachings when major Solar Arc angular hits happen—many times we see an outer planet on a Natal Angle.

Next: Cynthia’s 1942 SSR---It offers par-excellent symbolism for the loss of her mother with Jim’s Solar Return teachings---much better than her Solar Arcs.

[Jim Eshelman]

Her Scorpio Moon and other planets set the obvious pattern, joined by her Sagittarius Sun: So many, many women have excelled as superior 'executive' businesswomen with a Sagittarian Sun in the mix, including entertainment in general and Cyn's type of entertainment in particular who had at least one Sagittarian luminary, e.g., Ghislaine Maxwell, Heidi Fleiss, Linda Lovelace, Mary Tyler Moore (all Sag Suns) and Lucille Ball, Reece Witherspoon, Martha Stewart. (This doesn't even count those who were pure entertainers and not executives of something.) Her proneness to scandal (and coloring outside the lines in general) is probably her one foreground aspect, the Moon-Neptune mundane square.

The Regulus rising you mention is interesting, though it isn't partile for the even-hour birth time. Perhaps she was born a few minutes earlier? (Oh, let's see what your solar arcs of angles show.)

First “Life Development” Solar Arc angular contact: Shortly after her 10th birthday of 1942 her Solar Arc ASC partile cnj her Natal Neptune. Her “gentile undemanding” Mother passed away. Cynthia was quoted later in life as saying the wrong parent died. She was placed in “the custody of a remote father, and her affection was rebuffed.”

Concurrent with d As = r Ne, she had exact d Pl = r Sa, which fits exactly the conditions you described (I see you caught this, too). What seems not to fit (seems out of place) is d Ju = r Su, exact almost to the minute.

I see no outer planet transits acting as Carter’s “Law of Excitation” firing off her Solar Arc Pluto partile 180 her Natal Saturn; but I do see t Uranus 1,09 cnj her Natal MC

What date are you using? You only said "just before her birthday" so I used her birthday in 1942 which had Uranus 7°29' Natal MC is 26°09' Aries, 11° earlier. (If her birth time were several minutes later, Uranus would have transited her Zenith, i.e., square Asc.)

And yikes, that SSR!

[SteveS]

Jim, you wrote the best book ever on Sidereal Solar Returns--so when you have time will you take over and read Cynthia's 1942 SSR?

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, you wrote the best book ever on Sidereal Solar Returns--so when you have time will you take over and read Cynthia's 1942 SSR?

The two main points are transiting Pluto PRECISELY on Descendant and SSR Moon opposite natal Saturn. Presuming she had her SSR at her birth place, here is the chart for December 25, 1942, 10:39:42 UT. (I don't know the death. I think Steve said it was before the birthday, which makes this the wrong chart, though the chart applies to the aftermath including being left with her dark father.)

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
                           Transiting Planets                           
Pl 12Cn51'24"  5N 6 - 1' 6" 130°35' 23N30 308°56' + 0° 7' 180° 9' 100% D 
Mo  9Cn32'26"  1S58 +11°49' 125°19' 17N28 310° 0' - 7°37' 170° 6'  75% D 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Radical Planets                             
Ne 16Le20'25"  0N50 - 0'25" 162° 7'  8N29 275°44' + 6°17' 186°19' 100% Wa
Ma 22Le25'56"  2N49 +16'32" 168°34'  7N58 270°26' + 9°58' 189°58'  90% W 
Sa  9Cp26'31"  0S31 + 6'30" 305°49' 19S54 130°50' + 5°16' 353° 3'  87% A 
Me 17Sc12' 9"  1N56 + 1° 5' 249°52' 20S13 182°40' +18°58' 262°16'  84% M 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects     
tMo sq rMe  2°11' 87% M 
tMo op rSa  0° 6'100%   
tMo co rPl  2°31' 91% M 
----------------------  
rMe sq rSa  0°47' 98% M 
rMe sq rNe  0°52' 98%

Transiting Pluto is 0°09' from Descendant. Natal Neptune is 0°27' from WP-a. Three natal malefics are foreground (plus Mercury). SSR Moon opposes natal Saturn 0°21' (in the foreground and across the Cancer-Capricorn axis, in case that matters).

In fact, SSR Moon aspects natal Saturn, Mercury, and Pluto. Much emotional loss, separation, and hardship is here.

There were also non-foreground partile aspects of interest. I'll just list them without comment other than to say that this all occurred (ignoring the SSR for the moment) concurrent with Neptune's transit square natal Sun.

tMa op tSa 0°21'100%
tJu co rPl 0°30'100%
tUr sq rSu 0°59' 97% M
tNe sq rSu 0°59' 97%

Steve, an observation - I'm not sure if it strengthens or weakens the Solar Arcs argument. What follows could either be taken as triggering or concurrence with the directions OR could be taken to mean, "See, you didn't need the directions at all." (I don't know how we can tell.) The main point is that while the main meaningful features of the directions were an angle to natal Neptune plus Pluto to natal Saturn, the SSR has natal Neptune exactly angular and SSR Moon to natal Saturn-Pluto. It's the same message.

[Jim Eshelman]

I don't know the date of the death, but I think it was before her birthday. In that case, the 1941 SSR should show the actual death. Indeed, it was a hard year, with transiting Saturn 1°41' from Descendant as the closest contact and a Moon-Neptune 0°08' opposition.

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
                           Transiting Planets                           
Sa 28Ar28'37"  2S16 - 3' 4"  50°36' 16N11 294° 5' + 1°32' 181°41'  99% D 
Ur  3Ta 5'50"  0S13 - 1'53"  54°47' 19N18 292°49' + 6°26' 186°58'  87% D 
Mo  6Pi 4'35"  1S11 +12°27'   0°28'  1S 5 332°24' -37° 0' 121°35'  39%   
Ne  5Vi56' 7"  1N18 + 0'15" 180°24'  1N15 152°26' +37°11' 301°23'  39%   
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Radical Planets                             
Me 17Sc12' 9"  1N56 + 1° 5' 249°51' 20S12 102°17' -16°12'  16°34'  99% Ea
Ne 16Le20'25"  0N50 - 0'25" 162° 6'  8N29 175° 5' +47°37' 274°28'  95% M 
Ve 10Sc36'32"  1N22 + 1°15' 242°50' 19S42 107° 7' -11°32'  12° 3'  89% E 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects     
tMo op tNe  0° 8'100%   
----------------------  
tMo sq rSu  1°43' 92% M 
tSa sq rNe  2°48' 78% M 
tUr sq rNe  2°30' 83% M

[SteveS]

Jim, Clifford in his book states “soon after Cynthia’s tenth birthday, her gentle, undemanding mother passed away.” So, her 1942 SSR was the correct SSR to analyze for the passing away for her mother. Obviously the harsh symbolism in that SSR reflected probably the worst year of Cynthia’s life, psychologically.
Jim wrote:

Steve, an observation - I'm not sure if it strengthens or weakens the Solar Arcs argument. What follows could either be taken as triggering or concurrence with the directions OR could be taken to mean, "See, you didn't need the directions at all." (I don't know how we can tell.) The main point is that while the main meaningful features of the directions were an angle to natal Neptune plus Pluto to natal Saturn, the SSR has natal Neptune exactly angular and SSR Moon to natal Saturn-Pluto. It's the same message.

I totally agree with your observation here Jim. IMO, the message here is Solar Arcs involving Natal Angles only alert us to the potential for a major “Life Development”, but Solar Arcs involving Natal angles do not describe symbolically with enough details the major “Life Development” like a SSR is capable of doing for the astrologer. Too bad the excellent astrological authors who wrote about Solar Arcs did not have SSRs in their tool bags.

[SteveS]

Cynthia’s had a major “Life Development” occur in her life on Dec 16 1978. Her brothel house in Streatham (a suburb outside London) was raided for the first time which soon led to a major trial and scandalous news headlines for her and some prominent political figures also arrested in this raid. Was there a Solar Arc involving one of her Natal Angles? Yes indeed, her Solar Arc Sun partile 90 her MC backed-up with Solar Arc Mars partile 90 her Natal Saturn with Solar Arc Pluto partile cnj her Natal Neptune (scandals). Cynthia was busted big-time which subsequently led to headline news & imprisonment. Again we see Noel Tyl’s main teachings that “once in a lifetime” partile 0 90 180 Solar Arc hits are involving Natal angles are symbolizing major “Life Developments.” The partile Solar Arc hits above are par-excellent symbolism for Cynthia’s arrest and coming before the public into the limelight as a major scandalous public figure entertaining high public political figures. Without a doubt her Solar Arc Sun (limelight) partile 90 her Natal MC was par-excellent symbolism for her becoming a major public figure with headline grabbing news.

What about her current 1977 SSR for Streatham? SSR Saturn partile cnj SSR WP was clearly the main theme of her current SSR when busted. Also her Dec 12 1978 demi-SLR (DSLR) for Streatham preceding the raid & arrest on Dec 16 had even better par-excellent symbolism: DSLR mundo Saturn 00,15 cnj her DSLR DSC backed-up with her Natal Mars in the foreground of her DSLR 1,09 square DSLR Neptune (almost partile for an “outstanding incident” Mars-Neptune DSLR .

Conclusion: All the above charts excellent symbolism for the main teachings of Solar Arcs & Sidereal Return Charts. A Solar Arc astrologer would have been able to say within a 1 year period a major “Life Development” had high % for timing out; and, a Sidereal Astrologer would have seen her 1977 SSR with a very potent Saturn and said with high % her 1977 solar year could meet with inhibiting-downer incidents.

No major outer planet transits to Natal Angles or to the Solar Arc directions. No score for Noel's or Carter's transit teachings with directions.

[Arena]

Jim said:

For example, suppose directed Pluto conjoins natal Venus, showing a time period when relationship beginnings and endings are likely. Then transiting Saturn transits both natal Venus and directed Pluto and somebody close to them dies. What I think is going on there is that there are separate, technically unrelated aspects (d Pl = r Ve AND t Sa = r Ve) but not t Sa = d Pl.

Or, perhaps not so. While Pluto conj n. Venus can mean both beginnings and endings of a relationship, it is much more likely to mean an ending with the feeling of loss and sorrow when we see Saturn playing a part into the aspect. Saturn-Pluto is very much associated with something devastating, a huge loss, can be divorce or death.

With regards to the transits for your wedding, they are very valid, very symbolic for a wedding and perhaps they do show us that the orb needs to be a bit wider than partile. When we exclude those that are very close to partile or within 1,01-3° we are distorting the picture. You already have the partile appropriate symbolism depicted in the progressions and then this may mean that a wider aspect trigger can be associated with those.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, Clifford in his book states “soon after Cynthia’s tenth birthday, her gentle, undemanding mother passed away.”

Y'know, that IS what you wrote - and I read it half a dozen times and still kept seeing it as "shortly before her 10th birthday." Duh, my mistake. This makes SO much more sense.

[Jim Eshelman]

With regards to the transits for your wedding, they are very valid, very symbolic for a wedding and perhaps they do show us that the orb needs to be a bit wider than partile. When we exclude those that are very close to partile or within 1,01-3° we are distorting the picture. You already have the partile appropriate symbolism depicted in the progressions and then this may mean that a wider aspect trigger can be associated with those.

I actually think the opposite - that they should be much narrower than partile. Maybe no more than half a degree except in a broad sense that things come into being over months and years. A lot of solar arcs do seem to mark almost exactly a two-year period of a certain trend ("something is developing"), but then acutely break out very close to exact.

Steve's current work is quite interesting because, while we aren't surprised when these erupt into an event very close to exact (often within 10-15'), it would be valuable to know if something that trigger them into event-activity earlier than that.

But the idea of orbs as wide as 3° (meaning a six-year range for a single direction) seems unmanageable at best and also not accurate.

[SteveS]

1: When we see an angular partile Solar Arc hit which is mainly symbolizing a major “Life Development” for the life of the native, the main thrust of the symbolism for the angular Solar Arc hit can last up to 3 years after the main event/incident manifests, this is just natural---TIME heals & wounds things in life. It takes a lot of time (months or years) to adjust/adapt to angular Solar Arc hits for a new major "Life Development".

For example: In my life when my Solar Arc Mars was partile cnj my Natal MC an ongoing Mars “development” started taking place in my life with 3-4 special stockholders meetings without its President (CEO), discussions about firing the President and taking over the Company. These discussion (Mercury) started Jan 15 1985, Solar Arc Mars was 18 minutes past my Natal MC, and Solar Arc Mercury (discussions) was 53 minutes approaching my Natal ASC. The Company had two stockholders meetings every calendar year, one in Jan and one in July. In March of 1985 the majority of the stockholders meeting in secret without the President took a final vote to fire the President. I abstained my vote because the President was like a second/better father to me hiring me when I was six years old to work in one of the company’s theaters picking-up trash on a Drive-Inn Lot. He also hired my Mother to work in concessions, we were a poor family. I was only a 1% owner of the Company so my vote really didn’t matter for majority vote, but I was deeply troubled realizing the Company was in serious financial trouble (I had left the Company in 1981) and I was about to go against a second father to me who greatly helped me and my mother with employment, but realized it was the right thing to do for the majority of voters. But, you see, how things started to “develop” in my life for the most emotional/depressing thing to ever happen in my entire life. It’s probably the same for anyone involved in “once in a lifetime” angular Solar Arc hit, things naturally start to develop over slow stages of time before the final curtain goes up, and IMO the smallness or largest of orbs doesn’t matter, but only if the Solar Arc(s) orbs involved are Partile with an AA birth. The way I look at orbs is the simple fact that Sidereal Astrology teaches that “partile aspects (1 degree or less) reign supreme.” Well---if a “partile aspect reigns supreme” why do we need to actually look at any other aspect that is not partile?

Then, here is what actually happened to fire-off/trigger my Solar Arc Mars = MC for the main event. On July 8 in a regular schedule stockholder’s meeting with transiting Saturn partile cnj my Natal Asc, with the majority of stockholders lawyer present in the meeting and the county sheriff parked outside in case there were troubles, the majority of stockholders voted with a raise of hands to fire the President and his Wife who was present but told to leave the board room. The President had been the CEO of this Company for 35 years. Let’s check the orbs of my major Solar Arc angular hits on July 8 1985:

1: Solar Arc Mars was 43 minutes separating past my Natal MC.
2: Solar Arc Mercury was 25 minutes approaching conjunct my Natal MC
3: Transiting Saturn was 45 minutes approaching my Natal ASC but retrograde. You see here, it was obviously t Saturn which was the actual trigger for setting off my Solar Arc Paran of Solar Arc Mercury (r ASC) and Solar Arc Mars (r MC).

When this major “Life Development” angular Solar Arc manifested in my life, I went through 27 months of hell before I was finally released “emotionally” from this major angular Solar Arc “Life Development.” What I am trying to get a handle on with this topic: does Carter’s “Law of Excitation” with outer transiting planets applicable to Solar Arc Directions? Obviously, I already know Noel is correct in his Solar Arc research---when an outer planet transit is involved with our Natal angles at the same time of a PARTILE angular Solar Arc hit---it could be acting as the same effect of Carter’s meanings for his “Law of Excitation” with transits and directions, but Carter did not mention the words “natal angles” only if an outer planet transit was involved in one of the two directional planets involved in the aspect. We all know as Siderealists if an outer planet transit is involved with a natal angle at the same time of a PARTILE angular Solar Arc hit---the more descriptive & dramatic the effects---makes common sense. Anyway—my two cents on the orbs discussion.

[Jim Eshelman]

What I am trying to get a handle on with this topic: does Carter’s “Law of Excitation” with outer transiting planets applicable to Solar Arc Directions? ... but Carter did not mention the words “natal angles” only if an outer planet transit was involved in one of the two directional planets involved in the aspect.

He was narrower than that (and maybe you were just not quoting in detail). From the passage you quoted:

If at the time that a progressed body is in aspect to another by direction, either of these bodies forms an aspect by transit with either of the two directional bodies, then this transit will excite the direction into immediate operation. The transits of Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are often very significant of events.

For the purpose of getting very clear what Carter said (not siding for or against it at the moment) he said that if planet A and planet B are in aspect by direction, either planet A or planet B has to transit the planets involved in the direction.

As an example, by his statement, when directed Saturn squared my natal Sun in December 2020, Carter's view was that this would be triggered if either transiting Saturn or transiting Sun aspected the combination of directed Saturn and natal Sun. Since natal Sun is at 22°28' Virgo and directed Saturn squared it from 22°28' Sagittarius, this means that any transit by Saturn or Sun to 22°-23° Spoke while this was in orb would excite the direction. Notice that Sun would do this at least four times a year (depending on whether you count octiles; and Carter, I'm sure, would have include trines and sextiles at least). However, the main affect was not triggered (excited) by either of them: In mid-December when the solar arc was exact, Marion and I both got Covid-19 for the first time, lasting for weeks. No planets at all aspected my natal Sun / directed Saturn, and transiting Sun and Saturn didn't aspect anything partile when it happened. It was the exact direction (d Sa = r Su) being exact to the minute of arc. There were also other partile transits, like t Pluto conjunct natal Mars exactly, and other undesirable astrological circumstances, but one thing that was not part of the picture was either transiting Saturn or transiting Sun aspecting the Saturn-Sun direction. (This was absolutely the main event of the direction. Though we'd all been through almost a year of lockdown by that point, I can't attribute d Saturn = r Sun as personally describing that lead-up year since I was in a much luckier, more protected situation during Covid than most people (retained my job at full pay, had top medical coverage, many circumstances during lockdown actually better than our life outside of lockdown, etc.).

BTW, the same thing is true of my wedding, which occurred the exact day of direct/progressed Sun square natal Moon. This one is strange because, by Carter's law of excitation as he stated it, a transit by either transiting Sun or transiting Moon could have triggered this (and I really doubt that he meant transiting Moon could set it off five times a month). In any case, neither transiting luminary aspected the d Sun = r Moon for the event, but it was clearly the main event of the direction.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim for the feedback.

[Arena]

Steve's current work is quite interesting because, while we aren't surprised when these erupt into an event very close to exact (often within 10-15'), it would be valuable to know if something that trigger them into event-activity earlier than that.

But the idea of orbs as wide as 3° (meaning a six-year range for a single direction) seems unmanageable at best and also not accurate.

I thought I had been pretty clear in my post. I wasn't talking about a wider orb for the directions. Not at all. I specifically pointed out transits that may be triggers or connected with the theme of the solar arc directions, as in the case for your wedding. Even though the transiting orb is just a little bit wider than partile, but hitting while the direction orb is partile, that should be considered.

But I must add that I do agree with Steve that when a major development as in the currents are really turning in our lives, it can certainly affect us and last for a couple of years. We might look back and see where the strongest turmoil happened.... and then realize that it actually took a couple of years to settle into a new altered path.

[SteveS]

Prince Harry (Son of Diana) 9/15/1984; 4:20 PM; Paddington, London, England (51N32, 0W12).
Data Source: Palace announcement in newspapers on date; copy on file by Clifford.

Here is another example of a young child losing his Mother involving Neptune and Ascendant. At the time of his Mother’s death on Aug 31 1997, Prince Harry had no major transits or progressions to his natal chart, yet we note a few highly influential and meaningful directions.

Prince Harry Natal (inside wheel); Solar Arcs (outside wheel).
https://ibb.co/3smRNGR
Note:
Solar Arc Neptune with an orb of 1 minute of arc conjunct his Natal ASC for a major Neptune “Life Development.”
Solar Arc Mars partile cnj his Natal Neptune (00,59 separating)
Solar Arc Pluto partile cnj his Natal Saturn (00,24 separating)
Solar Arc Venus partile cnj his Natal Pluto (00,10 approaching)
Solar Arc MC partile 180 his Natal Node (00,07 separating). Noel Tyl states for MC = Node:

Being recognized.

We don’t know for sure where Prince Harry was located on his 1996 SSR; but, we can still see a major 1996 SSR aspect by Jim's ISR teachings with his SSR Moon partile 90 his SSR Neptune (another major Neptune influence).

We can only image how dazed/confused (Neptune) Prince Harry was with the loss of his Mother. The other partile Solar Arc aspects to his Natal show the malefic pain & depression as well for the loss for Prince Harry’s Mother Diana. IMHO, somehow (a huge mystery IMHO) the Solar System also arranges with our AA birth moments the math & geometry of our Natal’s with our Solar Arc partile hits and our SSRs symbolism for major Solar Arc “Life Developments” with angular Solar Arc aspects, along with any other possible partile Solar Arc hits. It boggles my mind to ponder!

* No major outer planet transits involved with Carter's "Law of Excitation" or Noel's outer planet transits to Natal Angles. Just straight-up partile Solar Arc hits. and an important SSR Moon aspect.

[Lyse]

We don’t know for sure where Prince Harry was located on his 1996 SSR

Steve, according to The Telegraph (UK), Prince Harry was at school on his birthday in 1996 as his mother visited.
Hope this helps with your research.

Ludgrove School, Wokingham, Berkshire

[Jim Eshelman]

Ludgrove School, Wokingham, Berkshire

Fortunately, this is very close to London (Paddington): a few minutes of latitude and just over half a degree of longitude.

[SteveS]

Thanks Lyse for your feedback. It indeed helps with my research . Prince Harry’s mundo Aug 30 1987 demi-SLR (DSLR) is an eye opener for the loss of his dear mother Diana. A class 1 mundo angular conjunction of Saturn-Pluto on his 8/30/1987 DSLR DSC. Also, angular eclipto Venus (Nadir) in this DSLR offering a strong angular Venus-Saturn-Pluto Aug 30 DSLR. I would definitely say it was this Aug 30 DSLR which triggered the timing for the tragic loss of his mother. A couple of weeks later we see Saturn on his Sept 12 SLR with Venus on his SLR MC for continuing grief; Natal Mars for this Sept 12 SLR on his SLR ASC for an angular Venus-Mars-Saturn combo. Again, we see here the importance of closely looking at the Sidereal Return charts when we see a major angular Solar Arc “Life Development.” When we do this type analysis we have a very reliable forecasting tool for major “Life Developments” with much more descriptive symbolism to help the Sidereal Astrologer for better timing charts, particularly the lunars. Thanks again

[Jim Eshelman]

Prince Harry’s mundo Aug 30 1987 demi-SLR (DSLR) is an eye opener for the loss of his dear mother Diana. A class 1 mundo angular conjunction of Saturn-Pluto on his 8/30/1987 DSLR DSC.

Steve, she died in 1997, not 1987.

And I took your word rather than check first, so I deleted my post earlier thinking i was the one who was 10 years off. (That was a goof because it was a really good post if I do say so myself.)

[Arena]

Plenty of symbolism for a total shock and a huge loss that is transformative since life can never return to what it was before: (Pl-Sat) seems to always indicate this. Solar arcs are showing us this really difficult and heavy experience.

The Neptune symbolism may indicate lots of confusion in his psyche, but perhaps it also symbolizes deception around his mother's death. Deceptions and lies we will probably never ever know for sure. What people do seem to know is that by law prince Charles could not marry again if his ex divorcee was still living. We also know that the driver was drugged/intoxicated and we don't know who intoxicated him. I'm guessing that he did not do that to hjmself. We also know that there was no need for that kind of speeding even though there were some photographers around. Something or maybe everything was really not right about this death.

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

Plenty of symbolism for a total shock and a huge loss that is transformative since life can never return to what it was before: (Pl-Sat) seems to always indicate this. Solar arcs are showing us this really difficult and heavy experience.

Indeed Arena, the Solar Arcs are spot on for the loss of his mother at age 12. And I hear you about “something did not seem right” with Diana’s tragic death. Saturn was all over Prince Harry’s DSLR & SNQ angles for this tragic day for him. What I am learning with this exercise is when we see a major angular Solar Arc Development, a very close examination is needed for the Sidereal Return charts. Thanks for your feedback.

[Lyse]

Thanks Lyse for your feedback. It indeed helps with my research

You’re welcome, Steve - anytime.

[SteveS]

Next up in Clifford’s Solar Arc book is an example of angular Sun = MC with Dionne Warwick’s major “Life Development” when she won the Special Recognition Award at the American Music Awards for her song “That’s What Friends Are For.” “This song reached the summit of the US charts the week ending Jan 18 1986.” With this song Dionne raised over 3 million $ for various AIDS-related charities. She was recognized as the United States Ambassador of Health in 1987. By 1987 she had already achieved much fame as 20 Yyears of pop artist with her great songs, but 1986-87 was her most shinning two years of Special Recognition. I need to write more about her Natal Chart with her near 2 minute exalted Taurus Moon rising and her Natal Jupiter partile cnj her East Point for her success and fame, but let’s take a look at her major “Life Development” Solar Arc Sun partile cnj her Natal MC for Jan 18 1986.

Birth data: Birth certificate, as quoted in The Gauquelin Book of American Charts:
12/12/ 1940 at 3:08 EST in Orange, New Jersey. (40 N46, 74W14)

Link to her bi-wheel for Natal (inside wheel) and Solar Arc 1/16/1986 (outside wheel):
https://ibb.co/88qdK9T

Just look at that shining light of her Solar Arc Sun partile cnj her Natal MC, 00,08 approaching. This same Solar Arc Sun is partile 90 her Natal Jupiter 00,22 separating. Solar Arc Pluto partile 90 her Natal Sun 00,42 approaching. Transiting Uranus partile cnj her Natal Sun 00,49 approaching and partile 90 her Solar Arc Pluto 00,08 approaching for par-excellent symbolism for a “revolutionary stunning” (Ur-Pl) special recognition (Natal Sun) for Dionne’s life.

Again, the lesson here is relative to our stations in Life, when we see major “Life Developments” Sun = MC Solar Arc symbolism our lives will be recognized (shines) relative to our immediate living environments, unless malefics are involved.

I have no idea where Dionne was located for her Return Charts analysis.

Transiting Uranus would not classify as Carter’s “Law of Excitation” but a few days later t Sun would have partile cnj her Solar Arc Sun, which could have been the DAY her “Recognition Award” was presented. Noel would have indeed classified t Uranus to her Natal Sun as a strong synchronicity for her major “Life Development” Solar Arc Sun = her Natal MC. Outer planet transits involved with major angular Solar Arc "Life Developments" I think are important to look for.

[Jim Eshelman]

The Carter-esque excitation is there - it's just not the Uranus. It's Pluto.

First, in addition to d Sun = r MC-Jupiter, she had d Pluto square r Sun. This is interesting by itself: it tells us at once that there was a natal midpoint pattern triggered. If Pluto reaches Sun just as Sun reaches Jupiter and MC, we know that the natal has Su = Ju/Pl = Pl/MC. Yowsa!

Then transiting Pluto set this off by opposing natal Jupiter, squaring natal MC, and squaring progressed (not directed) Sun.

And then, yes, transiting Uranus conjoined natal Sun.

That's a lot of Sun stuff!

[SteveS]

Excellent observation Jim, I've got to think more and wrap my mind around Carter's "Law of Excitation." Yes Sir, this was a very important TIME in her life for major Recognition. Thanks Jim for this important feedback. Indeed lots of Sun symbolism going off.

[Jim Eshelman]

In these examples (and some I ran for myself), I've been very intrigued the number of times that BOTH natal and progressed Sun are hit by an outer planet. I'd never thought of it before - that this could be a timing thing all by itself.

I'll do a little experiment here to see if it's practical.

First, a list of the time periods since, say, 1970 when Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto was within 1° of a conjunction, opposition, or square of natal Sun.

Uranus – 1971 Nov 6 to Dec 20
Uranus – 1972 Feb 25 to Apr 16
Uranus – 1972 Aug 23 to Sep 27
Saturn – 1974 Sep 1-14
Saturn – 1974 Dec 4-31
Saturn – 1975 May 21 to June 8
Pluto – 1977 Nov 26 to 1978 Mar 15
Pluto – 1978 Sep 22 to Nov 13
Pluto – 1979 Apr 5 to Sep 10
Saturn – 1981 Oct 31 to Nov 18
Saturn – 1982 Apr 21 to May 25
Saturn – 1982 Jul 11 to Aug 13
Saturn – 1990 Jan 4-21
Neptune – 1991 Feb 27 to Jun 10
Neptune – 1991 Dec 28 to Feb 23 (overlap)
Uranus – 1992 Feb 12 to Jul 5 (overlap)
Neptune – 1992 Jun 19 to Dec 25 (overlap)
Uranus – 1992 Dec 3 to 1993 Jan 8 (overlap)
Saturn – 1997 May 19 to Jun 10
Saturn – 1997 Sep 23 to Oct 19
Saturn – 1998 Feb 9 to Mar 1
Saturn – 2004 Jul 3-19
Saturn – 2010 Dec 25 to 2011 Feb 26
Saturn – 2011 Sep 11-28
Uranus – 2014 Jul 5 to Aug 6
Uranus – 2015 Apr 5 to May 12
Uranus – 2015 Oct 13 to 2016 Mar 3 (overlap)
Pluto – 2016 Feb 11 to Jun 28 (overlap)
Pluto – 2016 Dec 16 to 2017 Feb 13
Pluto – 2017 Jun 26 to Dec 21
Saturn – 2019 Feb 15 to Mar 6
Saturn – 2019 Jun 21 to Jul 19
Saturn – 2019 Nov 14 to Dec 5

Next, we limit this list to only those times when SIMULTANEOUSLY one of these four outer planets also aspected progressed Sun. This, of course, is a much smaller list. - I want to add that ALL of these periods of outer planets to natal OR progressed Sun were fascinating to see, one of the most lucid tours through important periods of my life I've probably seen in any one list, but there were only three times when BOTH natal and progressed Sun were in partile transit from one of the four most outer planets:

1992 Dex 21 to Jan 8
t Neptune (until 12/25) and Uranus to natal Sun
t Pluto to progressed Sun
This was one of the most climactic periods of my life. I wrote about in the Proserpinus long section in Pearls of Wisdom. In addition to much else that was going on, my spiritual life reached a once-in-a-lifetime distinct peak in this general time. The Neptune and Uranus transits to natal Sun gave a year or more of lead-in to this, and the Pluto to progressed Sun carried it forward to climax, being exact by itself in April when everything came to a head. These two weeks were the point I was rearranging my life for all of that, setting the other details described in Pearls in place, and leading up to a start of the formal spiritual retreat a week later in mid-January.

2004 Jul 3-19
t Uranus to progressed Sun
t Saturn to natal Sun
Another composite time. The Uranus transit to progressed Sun was longer, and the Saturn to natal Sun concentrated on these two weeks. My guru had a month before (May 31) and I was going through the steps of being confirmed and acknowledged leading to my enthronement September 5. Much administrivia and both inward and outward preparation.

2016 Dec 16-27 and 2017 Aug 3 to Sep 18
t Pluto to natal Sun
t Saturn to progressed Sun
Strangely, even though it's more recent, I don't remember this time. There was a great deal happening in late 2016 of course with the questions following Trump's election, and then much again through 2017. Just a few months before (August) one of the important loves of my life died after years of prolonged illness and disability. I just found an important diary entry in the second of these periods in which I made a specific decision about concluding a significant piece of work that would mark a major transition. Obviously, stuff was going on.


OK, this isn't about Solar Arcs or Carter's words per se, so it probably seems off topic to this thread. The idea of "hitting both Suns" did arise out of checking examples in and inspired by this thread. The direct connection, though, is that this same sort of filtering can likely help with solar arc timing. Quite a few of these have not been triggered to transits to angles but, rather, but transits to natal or progressed Sun - the two being more or less interchangeable for that purpose.

[Jim Eshelman]

To put this into play investigatively, first I compile a list of all solar arc directions BY or TO Sun, Moon, Midheaven, or Ascendant in my life. (Done. Long list.)

Next, we narrow this list to only those time frames when one of the outer four planets was in partile transit to NATAL or PROGRESSED Sun: What I find is... oops, there are WAY to many, almost non-stop overlaps. It is unworkable.

So, consistent with some things we've seen above, suppose I limit this to the transit to natal or progressed Sun having to be a planet involved in the direction? How does this look? In my entire life to date, there are only a few periods marked this way (presume solar arcs plus-minus one year):

Asc to Sun - Jan 7 1975
MC to Sun - Aug 2 1975
-- t Sat r Sun 1974 Sep 1-27
-- t Sat r Sun 1974 Dec 4-31
-- t Sat r Sun 1975 May 21 to Jun 8
-- t Ura p Sun 1976 Jan 27 to Feb 18
This was when I left Indiana (June 5) to relocate to California.

Sun to Sat - May 15 1977
-- t Sat p Sun 1976 Aug 6-22
-- t Sat p Sun 1977 Mar 24 to May 1
Not a remarkable time. I think TNIA came out that year, meaning I was sitting and typing at the publisher's all the time for months. The '76 period would not have been significant, but the '77 Saturn transit was probably during that time. Not a bad period though significant; I'm not sure what the heavy Saturn would have been other than "developmental."

Mon to Sun - Dec 12 1979
Plu to Mon - Mar 7 1980
-- t Plu r Sun 1979 Apr 5 to Sep 10
A much larger time was significant. Either '78 oir '79 SSR had Pluto partile conjunct natal Sun exactly on the angle. This Pluto transit to Sun redirected my life significantly even without the interesting concurrent solar arcs.

Sun to Plu - Jun 12 1994
-- t Plu p Sun 1993 Nov 11 to Jan 9
-- t Plu p Sun 1994 Apr 12 to Jun 21
-- t Plu p Sun 1994 Sep 28 to Nov 26
-- t Plu p Sun 1995 Jun 6 to Oct 18
Broadly developmental but not a lot of concrete stuff. The big shifts were before and after this. (An earlier Pluto transit caught one of these.) No serious complaint of the symbolism except the peak seems displaced significantly if we are looking for outward events.

Sat to Mon - Mar 26 1997
Asc to Sat - May 20 1997
MC to Sat - Dec 12 1997
-- t Sat r Sun 1997 May 19 to Jun 10
-- t Sat r Sun 1997 Sep 23 to Oct 19
-- t Sat r Sun 1998 Feb 9 to Mar 1
Good symbolism. AK and I had broken up in Nov '96, life was emotionally difficult, my law practice was winding down, and then I broke my heel in September '97 and was flat of my back for several months. While I was recuperating I didn't know that moths infested my closet and ruined a dozen expensive suits, leaving me two tolerable ones. Stuff like that.

Sat to MC - Jul 20 2001
Sat to Asc - Feb 10 2002
Mon to Sat - Apr 6 2002
-- t Sat p Sun 2001 May 13-29
Just coming off an economically rough time. In February a company I really liked shut down and we were all out of work. I got started on a training program to get a certificate to match what I actually knew and could do.


Here is what I think of all that: These aren't necessarily the biggest or most important few periods of my life, though the symbolism broadly fit. I think the solar arcs were running along for about two years each and, yes , matching transits deepened this and SOMETIMES focused the time - though, really, the directions had their own time scale. I'm not sure I'd call these "triggers."

[SteveS]

Excellent Jim, I think I understand where you are coming from with Carter’s method. It will take me much longer to go through my life. Since your Natal Primary angles are partile squared, I find it interesting anytime a Solar Arc planet is involved or outer planet transit to your primary angles 0 90 180 it is both to your MC & ASC.

So far, what I see is happening with Clifford’s few examples we have looked at is a confirmation of what Noel said in his Solar Arc book:

There is nothing more important than the angles of a Natal horoscope. It is safe to say that nothing vitally important for a major life development occurs without angular contact, or contact with the Sun or Moon, Angles are crucial. There will almost invariably be a major outer planet transit to trigger the suggestion of a major angular Solar Arc. The arcs of planets Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto to contact 0 90 180 with an angle are vital at any time of life.

So far, by what I can see with the cited few examples we are seeing as you pointed out---outer planet transits to our Suns involving Solar Arcs are critical. I think by the time we are through looking at all of Clifford’s examples it will boil down to what we have known for a long time: Primarily focus on your 4 Personal Points of your Natal: MC, ASC, Sun, & Moon with these Solar Arcs involved with one’s life. But also very critical to much more symbolic details and closer timing for a Solar Arc hit manifestation are our Sidereal Return charts. There are only a few Solar Arc books out there and they are good material, but none of em were written by a Sidereal Astrologer realizing the importance, at times, for Sidereal Return Charts.

Thank you so much Jim for your important feedback. It takes me more time to understand completely where you are coming from, you are like an analytical astrological machine running all the time . I will slowly push on with more Clifford's examples.

[SteveS]

My dear Mother died Mar 13 2013, but in my mind she died a year earlier, it’s complicated to explain but it was a huge relief in my life when she finally passed away; her spirit completely left her a year earlier. Below is tri-wheel link for my charts with her actual death.

Inner wheel Natal; Middle Wheel Solar Arcs; Outer Wheel Transits:
https://ibb.co/FY6YFTW

Note the major Solar Arc “Life Development:”
Solar Arc Uranus partile cnj Natal MC partile 90 Solar Arc Sun.
Transiting Neptune partile 90 Solar Arc Sun (a year earlier partile 180 Solar Arc Uranus. (This time period in my life was the most confusing/sorrow/suffering (Neptune) period in my entire life.)
Transiting Pluto partile 90 my Natal Neptune. “Stunning/shocking/intense”—(Pluto) confusion (Neptune). My mother would lose her mind at times but in her right mind begging me to figure out a way to end her life.

Several years before she died she made me vow to never put her away in an assisted/nursing living home. I promised her I would take care of her in her home.

There is no doubt in my mind with traditional astrology---the MC-IC axis many times has to do with parental symbolism, why I haven't a clue but Jim tells us not to concern ourselves with the WHY, only with what works . In effect, Solar Arc Uranus partile cnj my Natal MC with my mother’s final death gave me back my individual freedom (Uranus) from caring for her for 3 years and some financial freedom with me inheriting her home. No doubt—Solar Arc Uranus = my Natal MC was a major “Life Development” in my life.

[SteveS]

Next up in Clifford’s book for Solar Arc examples is Bill Clinton’s winning the 1992 Election for Prez:

Bill Clinton, the fun loving MTV saxophone player and first president for the baby-boomer’s generation came out of obscurity and ended the dominance of Republican Presidents, winning as a surprise Democratic Party President in the 1992 election. Indeed, this was a huge major “Life Development” for the Governor of Arkansas, and one would expect to see a major angular Solar Arc “Life Development” for Clinton’s winning the 1992 Prez election, and we indeed do see major angular Solar Arc hits.

Birth Data/Source: A note from Clinton’s mother to Shelley Ackerman; copy on file.
August 19, 1946 at 8:51 AM CST in Hope, Arkansas, USA (33N40, 93W35)

Bill’s bi-wheel (Natal inside); Solar Arc directions to his Jan 20 1993 Inauguration (Outside wheel)
https://ibb.co/qr3NFVh

Note: Clinton’s approaching Solar Arc Moon 11,30 Gem partile cnj his Natal MC 11,58 Gem for Clinton’s new major “Life Development as USA Prez
Solar Arc Sun partile cnj his Natal Venus 00,05 separating.
We see here 3 out of 4 Clinton’s Personal Points involved with this major “Life Development”, Sun, Moon, & MC.

Clifford says Clinton’s Natal Moon represents the people who elected Clinton as Prez, and Clinton’s Natal Venus symbolizes popularity. Maybe, but IMHO, I think Clinton’s Natal Moon & Venus involved in these two major Solar Arc hits represents Clinton’s tremendous natural personal (Moon) social charm (Venus) as winning him Prez.

Clinton’s outer planet transits are most interesting for Election Day Nov 3 1992:
First, t Jupiter on election day was 1,09 cnj Clinton’s Natal ASC, hands-down a clear winning indicator.
But second, and what I find very interesting is t Pluto was partile 90 Clinton’s Solar Arc MC. Again, I am seeing where the major outer planet transits are at times involved with the Solar Arc angles with major life events. (Jim’s wife Marion had t Pluto partile 180 her Solar Arc ASC for her accident/injury/surgery). I have read where prominent astrologers on the east coast research proves prominent Pluto symbolism in politics represents power, I tend to agree. Obviously with t Pluto partile 90 Clintons Solar Arc MC he won the most powerful office in his Country. Noel Tyl’s words for Pluto = MC:

Extremely important time for one’s life: dramatic changes of perspective are practically assured; identity transformation is possible; job adjustment is major and professional developments are life significant. Recognition and the ultimate power position are probable; past mistakes can be opened to view and threaten ruin; change of status.

Also note: t Pluto on Election Day 1992 was partile conjunct Clinton’s Solar Arc partile Mars-Neptune cnj, cnj Solar Arc ASC as well, which is actually the Natal Signature in Clinton’s Natal. Of course Clinton’s downfall as Prez came about with all the scandalous Mars-Neptune in Clinton’s life with many different women. But the main point---here again we see how important the major outer planet transits (0 90 180) are when major angular Solar Arc “Life Developments” are in place for an individual’s life.

Note: Prez Election 2024 has Trump’s Solar Arc MC partile cnj his Natal Pluto.

[SteveS]

Frank Clifford in his Solar Arc book insists that politicians who rise to the leading position of their Country, an astrologer can get a good sense how their elected terms will manifest with their Natal’s and Solar Arc directions at the time of their election to high office. But, what I am discovering with this research exercise is how important it is to analyze the major outer planet transits not only to our Natal at the times of important )Life Development", but also to our Solar Arcs. I’ve known for a long time that by looking at a President’s Natal for USA, we could get a sense of what might happen to their terms of serving as Prez. For example: When we look at Trump’s Natal with his Mars rising and Full Moon, the astrologer picks-up on a sense there might be Mars trouble for Trump while serving as Prez. This indeed happened with the election of Trump setting-off a Mars War within the USA between the two Parties and the voting public with half the voters loving Trump and the other half hating Trump. We also see with Bill Clinton’s Natal with his partile Mars-Neptune cnj, cnj ASC, Clinton’s terms in office was riddle with aggressive Neptune scandals involving women. But Clifford’s examples are beginning to show me it may indeed be important for us to pay close attention to major outer planet transits to a newly elected politician to their Solar Arcs at the time of election.

Clifford offers us an excellent example of this when Gordon Brown took over for Tony Blair as Prime Minster (PM) of Britain. Clifford suggest there was an inside deal and Brown was being set-up to take the fall as a Patsy for the illegal war on Iraq. A year after Brown took over as PM many MPs openly called on Brown to resign. Let’s take a look at what was going on in the heavens when Brown took the PM office on June 27 2007:

Here is a link to a tri-wheel with Brown’s Natal (inside wheel); his Solar Arcs (middle wheel); and transits (outer wheel) for June 27 2007. It is most revealing.
https://ibb.co/HnWY66L

Brown’s Birth Data source: Birth certificate, as quoted by Caroline Gerard and Paul Wright:
Feb 20 1951; 8:40 GMT; Giffnock, Scotland; (55N48; 4W18)

First note: Again we see as a major “Life Development” for rising to a high office a major Solar Arc angular hit with Brown’s Solar Arc MC partile cnj his Natal Sun 00,11 approaching. Also partile 180 his Natal Uranus.
Solar Arc Jupiter 1,15 90 his Natal Moon (par-excellent symbolism for winning a high office)
Solar Arc Pluto 1,02 cnj his Natal DSC. (again Pluto symbolism for acquiring political power)

Transits:
Transiting Jupiter partile cnj Solar Arc DSC. (Again we see the importance of transits to Solar Arc positions) for major "Life Developments."

But here is the most important outer planet transits to Brown’s Solar Arc positions: Saturn & Neptune was partile 180 in the heavens on June 27 2007 partile Brown’s Solar Arc Venus! This perfect symbolism for Brown being called on to resign by the MPs with many political insiders in Britain thinking Brown was set-up as a Patsy.

IMHO, so far with my research into this exercise of Clifford's Solar Arc examples, we all need to look at our tri-wheels paying not only close attention to the major outer planet transits to our Natal’s but also to our Solar Arc positions when we sense important incidents may be happening in our lives.

[Jim Eshelman]

Excellent example. There is a double Sun-MC since, in addition to d MC = r Sun, transiting Sun crossed natal IC at the same time. While the Sun transit is symbolically appropriate, normally it would be too flitting to mark a significant life event; but, as an echo of the direction, it's great!

Also, this is the cleanest example I've seen of a transit to a solar arc angle being legit in itself, with transiting Jupiter crossing directed Dsc as natal Sun crossed MC. One example doesn't make a case, but this one got my attention.

I'm less persuaded by the Sa-Ne square d Venus. It's not even symbolically right. Yes, at his election there was a Saturn-Neptune opposition - that says a lot all by itself. If this were square his d Mars, I'd have been more intrigued.

BTW the Sun-Pluto partile opposition across EP axis in his SLR for election (with widely rising Jupiter the only other foreground planet) is quite good.

What was the date of the move to oust him? That seems a better time to look for "take'm down" symbolism.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

I'm less persuaded by the Sa-Ne square d Venus. It's not even symbolically right.

I agree, but Clifford is making a case we should closely look at a high elected office politician’s Natal & Solar Arc directions with outer planet transits at the time of election for a flavor of how their terms will manifest. For another statement by Clifford pertaining to outer planet transits to Solar Arc positions at time of election Clifford states:

In addition, when Clinton won the election Nov 3 1992, t Jupiter was conjunct his ASC-Mars-Neptune and t Pluto had just crossed the directed positions of these 3 points.

Clifford is saying we need to pay attention to t outer planets to Solar Arc positions. Like I said, this is a new concept for me to think about with my astrological practice. I need more solid examples. But, I can see the common sense in this concept since Solar Arcs represent a strong representation of our Natals moving with the symbolic rate of Solar Arc with out Natal Suns at the time of the year we were born. If transits to secondary progression are valid as a-lot of authors suggest then they should also be for Solar Arc directions. Clifford states when he studied secondary progressions "they rarely seemed to produce results", and I have to agree with Clifford, my study showed the same, even more so combined with transits. But I must admit, I am seeing some superlative examples of these outer planet partile transits to Solar Arc positions.
Jim asked:

What was the date of the move to oust him? That seems a better time to look for "take'm down" symbolism.

May 11 2010 election defeat for Brown with Clifford citing transiting Pluto partile cnj Natal MC. I also note on this election date defeat Brown’s Natal opposition of Mercury-Pluto had Solar Arc with Solar Arc Mercury partile cnj Natal ASC. I knew nothing about many in Britain’s political news loop thinking Brown was set-up as a Patsy from the get go, as Clifford claims in his book.

[SteveS]

In October 1984 Belinda Giblin was asked to replace Rowena Wallace, the lead actress who played the infamous ‘Pat the Rat’ in the drama Australian Soap Opera series “Sons and Daughters”. Belinda instantly became the TV sensation of the year as a scheming, quintessential soap opera ‘bitch’ and was front-page news in every Australian tabloid. Actress Belinda Giblin captured a million Australian hearts in the 70s as a sexy secretary Kay Webster in the TV soap opera “The Box.”

We clearly see here Giblin’s ‘prominence and publicity’ rose astronomically when she took over the role of 'Pat the Rat' from Rowena Wallace in Oct 1984. And we can definitely see this rise in fame and success with her major Solar Arc “Life Development” with Solar Arc MC partile cnj (1-2 minute orb) her Natal partile Mercury-Jupiter cnj, and at the same time her Solar Arc Sun cnj her Natal ASC exact. Angular Solar Arcs are really a wonder to behold when it comes to major “Life Developments” for a life. We have Noel Tyl in his book “Solar Arcs” to thank for coining the words “major Life Developments” timed with angular Solar Arc hits.

Data Source: From her to Frank Clifford, quoting her father. March 2 1950, at 8:30 AM AEST in Tamworth, New South Wales, Australia (31S04, 150E55).

Giblin’s bi-wheel (Natal inside wheel), Solar Arcs for Oct 1 1984 (outside wheel):
https://ibb.co/QrYFMv5

Major outer planet transits:
Transiting Uranus partile 90 her Natal Sun (5 minute orb separating); transiting Uranus partile cnj her Solar Arc Venus (48 minute separating orb), again showing importance of 0 90 180 transiting outer planet transits to Solar Arc planets.

Transiting Saturn partile cnj Solar Arc Mars 27 minute orb separating, again a major outer planet transit to a Solar Arc planet. I can only guess this t Saturn to Solar Arc Mars had something to do with her many public appearances across Australia for her new found fame, working and tiring her in a Mars-Saturn manner, but don't know for sure why this Mars-Saturn symbolism is part of this Solar Arc picture. Anyway, a remarkable example of angular Solar Arc MC & Sun timing from Frank Clifford’s book “The Solar Arc Handbook.”

I wish we knew where her current SSR took place for analysis.

[Jim Eshelman]

Clifford is saying we need to pay attention to t outer planets to Solar Arc positions.

But we shouldn't accept these unless they symbolically fit the event. The one I objected to is not a fit to the event.

This was one of the things Fagan and Bradley pushed for in Sidereal astrology from the beginning: Fidelity of planetary symbolism. See the section, "An Astrological Pitfall," at the end of Chapter 1 of Solar & Lunar Returns. With 13 factors (I assume you're using 10 planets, two angles, and the node), at any given moment there are 169 possible solar arc to natal aspects. With a 1° orb, this means the odds are exactly even that there will always be a conjunction, opposition, or square direction within 0°15'.

Bottom line: So the symbolism has to be right. Sa-Ne to Ve isn't right symbolism. - I do take the other contacts you listed quite seriously.

Like I said, this is a new concept for me to think about with my astrological practice. I need more solid examples.

Yes, and you're digging for the rest of us. Appreciated.

If transits to secondary progression are valid as a-lot of authors suggest then they should also be for Solar Arc directions.

Not necessarily. Directions and progressions are entirely different things. Also, not all transits to secondary progressions are valid: I watched these day to day for decades being massively disappointed with transits to progressions except to Sun and Moon so stopped watching the others. The exception is that a transit to a progression that falls exactly on a quotidian (SNQ) angle will operate.

For that matter, I don't think solar arc positions are "real positions." I think are built up from midpoints. I won't bother you with all the math, but basically any solar arc position aspecting a natal planet is in a four-part midpoint: The midpoint of progressed Sun and the natal planet is equal to the midpoint of natal Sun and the directed planet. I don't know why this complex midpoint would be so strong except that it involves two Suns.