Autumn Financial Panics

[SteveS]

Being a market researcher I have always been mystified why the main historical financial panics occured in the autumn. In a recent new book I found this free download which I have not read: Jim, when you get time take a look at this and tell me your first astronomica/astrological impressions. I will probably run across something I don’t understand and will need to ask you for clarity. Thanks

https://spiralcalendar.com/wp-content/u ... panics.pdf

[SteveS]

In 1994 the CMT Association established the Charles H. Dow award to highlight outstanding research in technical analysis. The Award has received over 160 submissions, and recognized 23 papers for their excellence.

The author of Autumn Financial Panics received the "Charles H. Dow award in 1998.

[SteveS]

I found the following short analysis most interesting for my market studies.

I have now studied this article and I must say that I believe the 1929 & 1987 NYSE Panics occurring with the same numbered new moon’s with the Lunar Babylonian Calendar is only coincidence, as well as these panics beginning on the same day (Oct 28) However, it somewhat perplexes me how the 1857, 1929, panics started on the same day (Oct 28) and rallied with prices on the same days in the international markets without fast communications in those times.

But this study allowed me to discover something which IMHO is important to the few who seriously study astrology with the markets. I took a look at the New Moon’s in New York preceding these two panics and compared them to the 7:52 AM LMT NYSE CHART OF MAY 17 1792 and for sure outstanding excellent symbolism for these two panics with these two New Moons in New York.

1929 Oct 2 New Moon (NM):
NM 15Vir28 partile NM Uranus 15Pi38—most certainty symbolizing the potentials for sudden unexpected changes for something. But if a financial astrologer had taken this NYSE and compared to this NM Chart, one would have been forewarned. Let’s look at this comparison:
NM Saturn 01Sag06 partile 90 NYSE MC 01Pi30
NM Me 26Vir29 partile 90 NM Pl 25Gem48 with this NM Pl partile 180 NYSE Moon 26Pi48. This one aspect along nails the extreme/stunning/shocking (Pluto) emotional (Moon) event for this full-blown panic.
NM Mars 03Lib49 partile 180 NYSE Saturn 04Ari31; NYSE Neptune 05Lib51
Again we see with an outstanding example proving a true radical chart for the NYSE!

1987 Oct 22 NY New Moon for NYSE Panic:
NM 04Lib12 partile 180 NYSE Saturn 04Ari31; NYSE Neptune 05Lib51
The Oct 1987 NYSE Panic was short lived and did not throw the USA into a depression like the Oct 1929 NYSE Panic, but that Oct 1987 New Moon on the NYSE Saturn-Neptune 180 was certainty par excellent symbolism for the panic.

[Jim Eshelman]

...it somewhat perplexes me how the 1857, 1929, panics started on the same day (Oct 28) and rallied with prices on the same days in the international markets without fast communications in those times.

Where did the October 28 date for the Panic of 1857 originate? That panic was well underway months earlier. I generally use August 24 as the trigger date (and look at the phenomenal Caplunar and solid Liblunar for New York City for those days).

By the 1850s, nations’ economies were more intricately connected. Although the U.S. rode a strong wave of economic expansion, the world’s economy was contracting. When a financial panic erupted in England, America felt it. One high-impact consequence was the failure of Ohio Life Insurance & Trust Co. on August 24, 1857: Its operations were suspended due to fraudulent acts. This failure brought other industries under scrutiny, disclosing an unsuspected frailty of the economy. This undercut public confidence. Risky investments (which had seemed safe during prosperous times) began to turn sour. Full panic soon followed.

[SteveS]

Jim asked:

Where did the October 28 date for the Panic of 1857 originate? That panic was well underway months earlier. I generally use August 24 as the trigger date (and look at the phenomenal Caplunar and solid Liblunar for New York City for those days).

Jim, the way I understand the author's article, he is only analyzing short 3-4 day out of the ordinary panics when the market loses 10-12 % value. I don't have the data to see exactly what prices did in 1857 in Oct or at any time during 1857 on a daily basis.

[SteveS]

Louise McWhirter who wrote a book about the May 17 1792 NYSE Scope stated not to ignore New Moon’s planets with the planets of the NYSE chart, that New Moon charts have the potential to time within their time period major changes in trend with the market. By accident with me investigating this article, no doubt McWhirter knew the potential of New Moon charts with the NYSE.

[RingsOfSaturn22]

...it somewhat perplexes me how the 1857, 1929, panics started on the same day (Oct 28) and rallied with prices on the same days in the international markets without fast communications in those times.

Where did the October 28 date for the Panic of 1857 originate? That panic was well underway months earlier. I generally use August 24 as the trigger date (and look at the phenomenal Caplunar and solid Liblunar for New York City for those days).

On page 4 of the article, last paragraph, he states that the 1997 Asian collapse began in July, and the crises of 1987 and 1857 began in August. He also states the 1929 and 1873 panics began in September.

For the purposes of the article, he seemed to be focused on very big drops that only lasted 1-3 days at most before retracing.

@SteveS
With that said, I have some questions, particularly regarding intercalation. He glosses over this point, but I do think it is significant for the conversation. So, the following points:

1. What were the Babylonians using for their "year"?
   
   Was it a tropical year? A sidereal year? Or something else? This would significantly affect the starting point of his calculations.
   _
2. How did they handle intercalation?
   
   From what I understand of the Jewish calendar, they use a 19 year schedule with certain set years determined by their rabbis to be the years of intercalation. In the month right before Nisan (the new moon after the vernal equinox), they count it as an intercalary month. To me, this is a crude system that makes for easy calculation, but doesn't really add up to any reality due to the ever changing dynamics of the sun and the moon.
   
   In the Indian calendar, the handle intercalation based on when two new moons occur in the same solar month (whether you consider that solar month to be based around the vernal point or based on the sidereal zodiac). When this occurs, the first month is the "additional" month and considered to be a blemished month for any auspicious deeds, while the second month is considered to be the true month. They also have provisions of the case when there is no new moon in a solar month. This usually occurs when the sun is in southern declinations near the solstice point, and thus moving at its fastest speeds. They consider this to be a "kṣaya māsa", or a "reduced/diminished month". This is also considered to be a blemished month. It doesn't occur very often, but when it does, it often happens twice within a 19 year interval. The Indian system makes much more sense to me because it has reasoning behind it rather than a crude calculation.
   
   So, if one is trying to use this for prediction, we would need to know what specifically is supposed to happen in those instances. This would also give insight into whether one should base these predictions off of the tropical year or the sidereal year since the intercalary months would occur at different places in each. In the article, page 4, when talking about the crash of 1873, he mentions it happened on 6-28 rather than 7-28. I haven't checked, but I wonder if it was an intercalary month that year.

I do find it interesting that in Vedic astrology, the 3 karaṇas prior to the new moon (the last 18º when the moon is approaching the sun) and the karaṇa of the new moon (the first 6º of separation from the sun) are considered to be an evil period. This period would start right around the 28th day of the lunar month, pretty much in line with his article. Nothing auspicious is to be started in this period. There might also be something regarding the 27th lunar day too (in relation to Muhūrta), but I can't recall right now.

While I don't feel like I have enough of the data in front of me to make a firm conclusion about his paper, I will say it is interesting. I can cite some counter examples though. We have some in Bitcoin!

• 2023, 8/16-8/18: a 12% drop with most of it occurring on 8/17.
• 2022, 11/8-11/9: a 24% drop
• 2022, 9/13: nearly 13% drop
• 2022, 8/19: nearly 11% drop
• 2022, 6/12-6/14: nearly a 27% drop, even though it started a couple of days prior
• 2021, 12/4: 22% drop, although if we include the day before too, it would be even more
• 2021, 9/7: 19% drop
• 2021, 5/19: 31% drop
• 2021, 5/12-5/13: 21% drop
• 2021, 2/22-2/23: 22% drop
• 2021, 1/10-1/11: nearly 27% drop
• 2021, 1/4: 17% drop
• 2020, 11/26: 14% drop
• 2020, 3/12-3/13: 51% drop

I'd love to see how he might explain the Covid drop in 2020, because that one was significant for a lot of companies, even though it was in March, not September/October. For the Covid event, it was 3 days after the FULL moon on March 9, 2020. So nowhere close to the new moon. I haven't checked the moon phase for any of the other dates, but one can quickly see there were lots of significant 1-3 day falls outside of this September/October time frame. Bitcoin is great because it allows us to see if the fall occurs on a weekend or even overnight since it trades 24 hours a day.

[SteveS]

Rings wrote:

On page 4 of the article, last paragraph, he states that the 1997 Asian collapse began in July, and the crises of 1987 and 1857 began in August. He also states the 1929 and 1873 panics began in September. For the purposes of the article, he seemed to be focused on very big drops that only lasted 1-3 days at most before retracing.

Exactly Rings! I would be most interested in your astrological thoughts about this autumn panic article.
Most interesting points and observations you raise Rings for the rest of your above post! Since these 1-3 day intense panics are happening all over the world at the same time, we should be able to isolate some confirming astrological reason as to WHY? The only think I can see is the New Moon charts preceding the 1929 & 1987 1-3 panics compared to the NYSE chart. This is enough explanation for me with USA---but doesn’t fully explain to my mind for the other world 1-3 panics in other places in the world at the same time when no fast communications existed. This means to me there has to be some other astrological factors we are missing. Please offer your astrological thoughts Rings. Thanks so much for your feedback.

[SteveS]

Rings wrote:

They consider this to be a "kṣaya māsa", or a "reduced/diminished month". This is also considered to be a blemished month. It doesn't occur very often, but when it does, it often happens twice within a 19 year interval. The Indian system makes much more sense to me because it has reasoning behind it rather than a crude calculation.

If you can give me a link when this has happened history and future, if exists, I will go back and check all the panics in Jim’s Financial Panic Report with his link to the Report found here:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=363

Rings wrote:

So, if one is trying to use this for prediction, we would need to know what specifically is supposed to happen in those instances. This would also give insight into whether one should base these predictions off of the tropical year or the sidereal year since the intercalary months would occur at different places in each. In the article, page 4, when talking about the crash of 1873, he mentions it happened on 6-28 rather than 7-28. I haven't checked, but I wonder if it was an intercalary month that year.

How do we find when the true intercalary months are Rings? I will try to get in touch with the author of the article Rings to ask some specific questions. Please provide the specific questions you have for I know you know/understand more about his article than me. I found this:

The period of the intercalary month was considered spiritually dangerous [20] and the pharaoh performed a ritual known as "Pacifying Sekhmet" (Sḥtp Sḫmt) to protect himself and the world.

So, we have lore from Ancient Egypt that an “intercalary month” is dangerous for a person. If dangerous in the material world as well then it may help us learn more about the WHY for these intense 1-3 day panics. I know this: The author of the article has proven to me that there must be some kind of universal cycle causing these 1-3 intense panics and it appears to have to do with certain months (lunar) on certain days, otherwise how do we explain a couple of these 1-3 panics happened in certain parts of the world at the exact same times, without a modern communication system? The author does not provide me with enough data for me to understand what he is exactly seeing in order to exactly properly see into the future/past what I need to understand.
Rings wrote:

I do find it interesting that in Vedic astrology, the 3 karaṇas prior to the new moon (the last 18º when the moon is approaching the sun) and the karaṇa of the new moon (the first 6º of separation from the sun) are considered to be an evil period. This period would start right around the 28th day of the lunar month, pretty much in line with his article. Nothing auspicious is to be started in this period. There might also be something regarding the 27th lunar day too (in relation to Muhūrta), but I can't recall right now.

Rings, this is most interesting! If I can open-up a clear line of communication with the author (if living), I will definitely see if he can enlighten us further with your keen observations. Again, thanks much for your feedback.

BTW, if I was to do research with your Bitcoin observations, if we had a true radical chart, I would analyze quotidian charts and the days when a new SLR began, both the 0 180 SLRs. The reason I would only do the beginning days of these lunars, Fagan said these days were very important to look for partile aspects in the lunars and compared to the natal, particularly the faster moving planets. I have proven to myself this is true with my lunars. If you have what you think is a true radical of Bitcoin (another person told me there is no true radical), I will do some research for your Bitcoin dates.

[RingsOfSaturn22]

Rings wrote:

They consider this to be a "kṣaya māsa", or a "reduced/diminished month". This is also considered to be a blemished month. It doesn't occur very often, but when it does, it often happens twice within a 19 year interval. The Indian system makes much more sense to me because it has reasoning behind it rather than a crude calculation.

If you can give me a link when this has happened history and future, if exists, I will go back and check all the panics in Jim’s Financial Panic Report with his link to the Report found here:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=363

The most recent one I can recall is from 1983 -- but that is using the Lahiri ayanamsha. It would be different using the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsha. There was a researcher (not related to cycles) that mapped out all of the kṣaya māsa for the past several hundred years to see if there was a pattern for their occurrence. I swear I saved the article on my computer, but I'm not seeing it now. Again, he is using the Lahiri ayanamsha, but it really helped with seeing the unusual frequency of such events. If I can find it, I will link it.

But basically, a kṣaya māsa can occur if there is a new moon in the 29th or 0 degree of a sign, AND it occurs around December/January/February (in the vicinity of perihelion), as this is the only time when the sun is moving fast enough to beat out the synodic month. At these times, the synodic month would be at its longest, nearly 30 days, rather than the average 29.53 days. This usually occurs once every 141 years and possibly again 19 years prior to that 141 mark (so 122 years).

With that said, in a year where there is a kṣaya māsa, there will ALSO be 2 intercalary months, so it all balances out. So you can say in those years, there will be a double blemish. I think the main reason for all of this is to keep the naming convention of the months consistent and in line with the solar years and in line with the constellations.

How do we find when the true intercalary months are Rings? I will try to get in touch with the author of the article Rings to ask some specific questions. Please provide the specific questions you have for I know you know/understand more about his article than me.

According to Jyotiṣa, it is when there are two new moons in a single 30º transit of the sun through a sign. The first month is considered the adhika māsa (the additional month that is blemished), while the second lunar month is considered to be nija māsa (the true month). And adhika māsa is considered to be blemished and not good for MATERIAL pursuits, but highly favorable for SPIRITUAL pursuits. Eclipses are viewed in the exact same way. So if there is a particular mantra you are trying to master or a certain penance you are trying to do or a certain type of spiritual state you are trying to achieve, these times are seen as very beneficial for those things. But if you are trying to gain material possessions, then it is said it will backfire on you if started at these times.

I don't know how the specifics of how the other luni-solar calendars of the world such as the Chinese calendar or old Japanese calendar handle intercalation, but this would be a great point for Chris to clarify in terms of how he is determining intercalation and what effect it has on his results.

I will come back with more questions later and respond to the rest later.

P.S. The author is still living. He is actively posting on his blog. He just posted something new a couple of days ago.

[SteveS]

Very interesting Rings. I will try to contact Chris with his lunar work and ask him if there is a specific book I can read which would help me understand his work more, because I don't have enough understanding to get on the same page he is on. Thanks Rings.

[RingsOfSaturn22]

Although I already mentioned this to you @SteveS, I'm just posting it here in case anyone else has more thoughts to add to it. I've added a few additional things to it.

While looking up more info on Chris yesterday, I came across this article by Bill Meridian on the lunar cycle. He cites Chris in it. I feel it tells a more complete picture than what Chris wrote, particularly in the section with the graphs comparing the DOW in different decades. You can see the moon responds differently in each decade.

This leads me to believe the moon is definitely behaving differently based on a bigger cycle related to one of the following:

1. Saturn (One sidereal period of 29.46 years is 364.34 synodic lunar months -- put another way, during the 365th lunar month, Saturn will have completed one sidereal period)
2. The 19.86 Jupiter-Saturn synodic period (almost 246 synodic months)
3. The 18.6 year period of the nodes (which is also the major lunar standstill cycle, slightly over 230 synodic months)
4. The 18.03 year Saros period (This is the eclipse cycle of 223 synodic lunar months. Chris also seems to utilize eclipses based on my cursory reading of his material.)
5. The 19 year Metonic cycle (This is when the sun and moon conjunct at nearly the same place after 235 synodic months, off from an exact perfect repetition by about 1.5-2 hours. It is the basis for crude intercalation calculations commonly used in luni-solar calendars to keep the sun and moon in sync.)
6. Either the Sun-Jupiter or Sun-Saturn synodic cycles I mentioned in the Gann thread (in the sense of how long does it take before the sun and the planet conjunct again at nearly the same point in the zodiac)

If I had access to the raw data that Bill used for his article, it would be easy to run experiments to see which of these aligns closest to the data.

[SteveS]

Bill Meridian wrote:

One possible explanation for this strong cyclic tendency throughout all commodity markets is the lunar cycle.

Rings, one thing I noticed when I was immersed in Gann’s seasonal Sun Dates 45 years ago. When a Sun Date lined up on a Monday and there was a New Moon or Full Moon on the same Monday, the Sun Date carried much more weight for possibly dramatically changing the trend for an exact Sun Date top or Bottom. Of course, prices had to be making new highs on the monthly/yearly charts with a very fast movement in the market, but we are dealing with par-excellent solar- lunar symbolism.
Rings, here are some of my quick intuitive thoughts after reading your post about Bill’s/Chris work with the lunar cycle.
1: I don’t understand fully their presentations with their work on the lunar cycles.
2: But, I do know this by what you posted about the large daily moves in the Bitcoin market, if I was going to attempt to day trade the Bitcoin market, I would most certainly implement a lunar trading system which proved accurate enough to implement. For example: Jim’s Sidereal Mundane Astrology (SMA) work with 50 Super Bowls proved 80% accurate and I implement Jim’s SMA Super Bowl with my recreation gambling on major sporting contest. The Bitcoin market is by far the most volatile trading market I have ever seen---this puzzles me, as to why? If I had to guess why this is---the Bitcoin market appears to me to be ruled by the Moon! So, keen observations with a lunar trading system may bear fruit.
3: In all esoterica symbology the Sun & Moon are symbolized. The main reason I became a Sidereal Astrologer is because of the superb symbology I get from Sidereal Solar & Lunar return charts, particularly the “outstanding incident” return charts, but I am digressing. Since we know a return chart has to do with returning the Moon & Sun exactly back to its same position held by the native’s Sun & Moon position and then striking a chart looking closely at the angular aspects, I am wondering if the same could be done with the longer 18, 19 year cycles of the Sun-Moon conjunctions returning to their same positions in the zodiac, checking their aspects. What this could or not offer for the markets—I don’t know. Was Gann doing this for markets?
Anyway—just quickly firing of my thoughts after reading your post.
Rings wrote:

If I had access to the raw data that Bill used for his article, it would be easy to run experiments to see which of these aligns closest to the data.

You need to try and contact Bill if you think it is important for your objectives.

[SteveS]

Interacting with Rings and by studying this article on Autumn Panics by the author Chris, and then by accident discovering how important certain historical New Moon charts are compared to the NYSE chart, I am going to start a new experiment by reading each New Moon charts to the NYSE. I will only be using class 1 (close attention to partile aspects) 0 90 180 aspects of the New Moon planets to the NYSE factors. Please feel free to offer your own interpretations or disagree with my mundane interpretations.

[SteveS]

OK, let’s start my experiment with New Moon (NM) charts compared to the NYSE chart with the Feb 9th NM chart.

NM angular Venus 26 Sag 37 partile 90 NYSE Moon 26 Pi 48
NN Jupiter 13 Ari 14 partile cnj NYSE Venus 13, Ari 32
These two partile aspects are super benefic---which without any other glaring malefic stuff from other charts should offer a significant increase in prices from Feb 9 to the next NM Mar 10.

NM 25 Cap 36 square NM Uranus 24 Ari 05 class 1 aspects to NYSE Uranus 23 Can 18
Expect maybe some sudden unexpected quick (Uranus) changes in price within a continuing benefic run. We have already had a quick (Uranus) 500 + down move in the Dow with a quick (Uranus) recovery in prices. This correction in prices appears to have been caused by a transiting partile cnj of Mars-Pluto (malefic) on the NYSR Saturn-Neptune 180. Let’s review when the Feb 9 NM chart runs its course.

PS, I forgot the NM Mars 02 Cap 23 90 NYSE Jupiter 01 Lib 06 (another very benefic aspect)

[RingsOfSaturn22]

Rings, one thing I noticed when I was immersed in Gann’s seasonal Sun Dates 45 years ago. When a Sun Date lined up on a Monday and there was a New Moon or Full Moon on the same Monday, the Sun Date carried much more weight for possibly dramatically changing the trend for an exact Sun Date top or Bottom.

Yes, this is in the direction of what I was thinking in the Gann thread a few months ago. Somehow, the moon has some relation with all of this.

2: But, I do know this by what you posted about the large daily moves in the Bitcoin market, if I was going to attempt to day trade the Bitcoin market, I would most certainly implement a lunar trading system which proved accurate enough to implement.

I've seen one person over the years who tried to use a primarily lunar based system with bitcoin. It works sometimes, but in many other cases, the data wasn't so convincing. I can't recall who this person was, though. It was some web site I came across a couple of years ago.

The Bitcoin market is by far the most volatile trading market I have ever seen---this puzzles me, as to why? If I had to guess why this is---the Bitcoin market appears to me to be ruled by the Moon! So, keen observations with a lunar trading system may bear fruit.

Bitcoin is just wacky. In my crypto/astrology group I was a part of, when we tried to get the natal chart down for Bitcoin, it was just shrouded in a fog of mystery. One thing that kept coming up is a strong influence of the north node in Bitcoin's chart. The symbolism with it fit perfectly for Bitcoin, in the sense of great exaggeration (which we see in its extreme prices and price fluctuations), mystery (no one can figure out the proper birth time for it, nor the location where the first trade took place), deception/trickery (Bitcoin was initially connected with criminals and underground crime, and I STILL sense there is a lot of hidden deception going on with it currently — I mean, it's based out of thin air), etc. I gave up on trying to figure out Bitcoin. As soon as you think you have it figured out, it will throw you a curve ball. So, for that reason, if someone thinks they have a cycle method figured out, Bitcoin becomes my litmus test of how effective the method is.

Since we know a return chart has to do with returning the Moon & Sun exactly back to its same position held by the native’s Sun & Moon position and then striking a chart looking closely at the angular aspects, I am wondering if the same could be done with the longer 18, 19 year cycles of the Sun-Moon conjunctions returning to their same positions in the zodiac, checking their aspects. What this could or not offer for the markets—I don’t know. Was Gann doing this for markets?

This sounds like you're describing the Tithi Pravesha chart that some Vedic astrologers use (mainly those from the Sanjay Rath school of thought). There is the Varsha Pravesha chart which is the same as SSR. But then you have the Tithi Pravesha chart which is based on the sun and moon having the exact same angular relationship to each other in the same relative part of the zodiac. So, let's take one of Chris' examples. If we use the October 19, 1987 crash, let's pick a time. We will say 12 noon. According to the Indian calendar, this would be the 27th Tithi for the month of Ashwina, the lunar month when the sun crosses into Libra. For our example, let's assume the sun and moon were separated by 35.5º. For the Tithi Pravesha, we would look at the next year in the lunar month when the sun crosses into Libra with the moon approaching by 35.5º. It's just the next year, the sun would be at a different longitude within Libra. For the combination in question, on the day of the 27th tithi, the sun might actually be in Virgo, depending on how things fall. But after 19 years, it will return to nearly the same longitude. So it seems you're looking for a 19 year Tithi Pravesha chart. (Gann also had a cycle that was 56 years or maybe a bit over 56 years, so I've always wondered if it had some relation to 3 of these 19 year cycles.)

For the 18.03 year cycle, I've never sat down with it and really looked at it closely. I've only seen it used to track eclipses that are part of the same Saros series. But I would imagine if you used it with a sun-moon relationship that wasn't based on an eclipse, then it would give a similarity in relative positions of the moon and the nodes.

Over the years, I've thought about all of this in relation to Gann cycles, particularly the Tithi Pravesha and 19 year cycle. I mean, in one of his permanent charts, he seemed to be approximating the 18.6 year cycle by alternating between groups of 18 and 19 years. So there is the connection with both 18 and 19 there. I have not yet determined if any of these ideas are valid, and more importantly, if they are valid in 21st century markets.

Interacting with Rings and by studying this article on Autumn Panics by the author Chris, and then by accident discovering how important certain historical New Moon charts are compared to the NYSE chart, I am going to start a new experiment by reading each New Moon charts to the NYSE.

Sounds good. I will respond to the rest later.

[SteveS]

Rings wrote:

Somehow, the moon has some relation with all of this.

Exactly Rings, much more so than we realize IMHO! In Gann’s Commodity Course he talks about how important the square of 9 is with markets, he talks about a Master Chart of 81 (sq of 9). 9 is the number of the Moon—no doubt in my mind, and by ancient lore (Myth) has much to do with prophecy. Definitely Gann was working the Moon in the markets.

Bitcoin is just wacky. In my crypto/astrology group I was a part of, when we tried to get the natal chart down for Bitcoin, it was just shrouded in a fog of mystery.

Here is what I don’t understand. Trading in stocks were happening before the NYSE was incorporated into a public trading institution, just as Bitcoin was trading before the an official Bitcoin first time trade futures market was instituted. And I am getting outstanding results with my Sidereal Astrology approach to the May 17 1792 NYSE, 7:52 AM LMT NYSE chart for a first time trade chart (FTTC). When I looked into a possible true Bitcoin radical chart, I found a time for when it was first incorporated into a public trading futures institution in Chicago (FTTC) and Neptune was clearly this possible radical chart’s signature, which most certainly would explain a lot of wackiness for the Bitcoin market. I know the Chicago Bitcoin market is now defunct as the true futures market, moved to NY, but still we are talking about a first time trade chart (FTTC) for the Bitcoin market. Gann mentioned in his Commodity Course about the importance of a FTTC.

Rings, there is no doubt in my mind the ancient Hindu/Vedic traditions in India possessed a-lot of pure ancient astrological knowledges before the moderns times started t pervert it, also with numbers. By what Gann’s son told me, his dad spent several weeks in India but son had no idea what Gann was doing. With Gann's passion for reserching markets--no way you spend that much time in India without knowing you are learning some important knowledge with markets. I will later be posting some words from Gann's Commodity Course in your Gann thread for our curiosoty. . Like you said--its a little exausting to write out our deeper thoughts for certain things on a forum.

[RingsOfSaturn22]

9 is the number of the Moon—no doubt in my mind, and by ancient lore (Myth) has much to do with prophecy. Definitely Gann was working the Moon in the markets.

What exactly is this connection of the Moon and the number 9 that you speak you?

As far as I have understood, in the numerology works that Gann recommended by Sepharial, the Moon was connected with the numbers 2 and 7 while Mars was connected with the number 9.

Is it a different system that connects the Moon with 9? Where can I learn more about this?

[SteveS]

Rings asked:

Is it a different system that connects the Moon with 9? Where can I learn more about this?

Go to this link: https://www.carolinaconjure.com/magic-squares.html

Go the Magical Square of the Moon (9) different numbers in each row/column--add up any row or column you wish and the total comes to 369 add these 3 numbers and you get 18, add these 2 numbers you get 9--the number of the Moon. The square of 9 is 81. Gann specifically said how important it was to construct the a square of 81 using its multiples with markets, the square of 9, but never gave any clear specific instructions on how to use his Master Square of 81 for any market. Also note by ancient tradition the Moon holds rulership over the day Monday and remember what I said about a-lot of true Sun Dates falling on Mondays. Its something to do with the Sun Dates coming together with the main Moon Cycles to start a new reversed trend. Now that you and have discovered you be prosecuted in Gann days for fortune telling with astrology, Gann simple could not write down in his course material anything to do with astrology, a huge missing part of Gann's written puzzels on the markets.

Now to continue this exercise, go to the magical square of the Sun (6). Add all the horizontal rows, vertical rows, and diagonal rows and they all add to 111 and 6 x 111 is 666. Of course certain controlling interest of the Christian Bible has perverted the true meaning of this number 666 representing evil where it is obvious something to do with the Sun. These magical squares of planetary numbers seems to be some type of expression of certain natural laws. Gann repeatedly said he gained most all of his market knowledge from the Bible. more next post...

[SteveS]

Going to page 281 written by Charles Harvey from the book “Working with Astrology” pertaining to the ‘The Psychology of Harmonics’ he says with the harmonic number 9:

Pythagorean description of 9 as ‘utter perfection’, as wholeness and completeness, and it may be as well to remind ourselves of just how profoundly 9 is entwined in sacred myths and legends of the world.
Myth recounts that the Norse god Odin hung upside down from the World Tree for nine days and nights before he was able to bend down and take up the magical runes which brought inner knowledge and the gift of prophecy. The association of the number 9 with initiation, wisdom and spiritual knowledge is widespread. In the days. The Hydra, symbolic of wisdom, with which Hercules fought, had nine heads. In the Arthurian legend Merlin had nine bards and King Arthur battled nine days and nights with an enchanted pig, which can be seen as symbolic of man’s lower nature or alternatively as representing battling with the limits of the mind. The mythical North European cat of wisdom had nine tails.
In the Welsh ‘Mabinogion’ the goddess Cerridwen, who lives, significantly, in ‘the Land Under Waves’, has a Cauldron warmed by the breath of nine maidens in which boils science and inspiration for her ugly son till ‘three drops of the grace of inspiration’ are yielded. These nine maidens of course exactly parallel Apollo’s nine muses whose divine wisdom embraces the past and the future as well as the present, and who were considered to be the inspiring powers and source of all human wisdom.

[SteveS]

In the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, the divine model for the Universe and Man, the ten Sefirot, the 10 prime attributes of the Creator, can be seen as a nine suspended from the One, or as ten with identity between the first and the last. For the aspirant of the spiritual path there are often said to be nine stages. These are reflected in the nine Beatitudes of the Sermon on the Mount, the means by which we may ascend to enlightenment. These have their counterpart in the Nine Woes in St Matthew 23, which indicate the stages of descent and destruction (another perversion of Christianity). In the Tarot the ninth trump is the Hermit, a card related to self-transformation through withdrawing from the outer world in order to awaken the inner self. Gurdjieff saw the Enneagram, the ninefold division of the circle, with its sevenfold inner process, as mirroring the whole of life. Nine lies at the heart of the Western tradition of numbers, for Pythagoras states that there are only nine numbers, and everything both cosmic and divine, unfolds its root idea, its innermost potentiality, to its outermost expression, its actualized perfection through the number nine. Thus nine is as it were the culmination of the whole process of manifestation and creation. It is the point at which an idea becomes ‘new born.’ This is obviously seen in the fact that the normal period of gestation is nine months (but 10 lunar months). And here we have the interesting fact that in most European languages (your path of study) the word nine are closely related, e.g. in German we have neun = 9 and neu = new; in French neuf = 9 and neuf = new; in Spanish nueve = 9 = new.

[SteveS]

Schwaller De Lubicz, my favorite author (researcher) on Ancient Egypt says in his chapter on “Myth” from his book “Sacred Science” The King of Pharaonic Theocracy:

In our definition, myth is the means of expression employed by sages who teach the esoterism of natural facts/laws inexpressible in words.

It would appear that a-lot of world myths are trying to express something important with the number 9!
This brings us full circle back to Chris and his article here about lunation’s (NEW moons).
Cyril Fagan, our father of Sidereal Astrology writes from his book “Astrological Origins”:

The Navamsas appear to have had their origin in ancient Egypt for the Egyptian phonetics for the New Moon was ‘psd’ (peshedj) which also were those for the numeral 9. This can hardly be construed as a mere coincidence. The phonetics psdntyw (peshedjedjentiw) literally means the “Festival of the New Moon” which was observed with the first appearance of the crescent at sunset. Moreover, psdt (peshjet) means the “Company of the Nine Gods.” Multiples of the square of 9 (81) when reduced still remain the base of 90 degrees.

(This appears to me what Gann may have been doing in his Commodity Course, taking ‘multiples of 81, he talks about how important the multiple of 81 by 6 (number of the Sun) is so important.)
Fagan:

So, obviously 9 is a prophetic number.

Note: already with my New Moon experiment with the NYSE chart the Feb 9 New Moon featured class 1 aspect to both NM Uranus and NYSE Uranus, a double whammy of Uranus symbolism and look what happened. The market got a total unexpected surprise of a reversal in the inflations numbers which shocked the indexes down significantly, but we need a whole lot more observations to see if we have a valid tool here. By what I can tell, the ancient Egyptians looked upon the New Moon as something universal in importance, we see astronomy brings the Sun and Moon together, but I have never even looked at New Moon charts for anything in my work.

[RingsOfSaturn22]

Ahh, I see. So this is more of an Egyptian connection.

Cyril Fagan, our father of Sidereal Astrology writes from his book “Astrological Origins”:

The Navamsas appear to have had their origin in ancient Egypt for the Egyptian phonetics for the New Moon was ‘psd’ (peshedj) which also were those for the numeral 9. This can hardly be construed as a mere coincidence. The phonetics psdntyw (peshedjedjentiw) literally means the “Festival of the New Moon” which was observed with the first appearance of the crescent at sunset. Moreover, psdt (peshjet) means the “Company of the Nine Gods.” Multiples of the square of 9 (81) when reduced still remain the base of 90 degrees.

(This appears to me what Gann may have been doing in his Commodity Course, taking ‘multiples of 81, he talks about how important the multiple of 81 by 6 (number of the Sun) is so important.)

You may be on to something with the number 9 here!

A few things about this quote, though:

1. I don't understand how Fagan is connecting the navāṃśa, the new moon, and "psd". I mean, the word navāṃśa has nothing in common with "psd". The number 9 in Sanskrit is nava. An aṃśa is just a part or a division of something. When put together, it means something along the lines of "one characterized by nine parts/divisions" or "a ninth part". If this were the ONLY word like this, I could lend more credence to what Fagan is saying. But in Vedic astrology, you also have the caturāṃśa (4 parts), saptāṃśa (7 parts), daśāṃśa (10 parts), dvadaśāṃśa (12 parts), ṣoḍaśāṃśa (16 parts), viṃśāṃśa (20 parts), etc. According to Parāśara, the D60 is the most important divisional chart, even more important than the D9, even though its use is often ignored these days. 60 is not even a factor of 9.
   
   The navāṃśa on its own has nothing to do with the new moon. It's just a division of a sign (or possibly a bhāva, but still doing more research into that).
2. Interestingly, for the Indians and the Jews, the sighting of the first crescent of the new moon marks the beginning of the new month. Even though Fagan translates the phrase using new moon, it doesn't sound like he's talking about new moon in the sense of the conjunction of the sun and moon. For this conjunction, this is actually the 30th day -- the last day of the month in the Indian system (and it seems like it might have been the same in the Egyptian system per Fagan's description. I'm aware that the Egyptians were using a lunar calendar at one point in time in their history.)
3. He connects "psdt" with 9 gods. However, the navāṃśa system has no such connection. It is connected with three CLASSES of beings -- devas (gods), naras (man), and rakṣasas (demons) -- but it's not like the other divisionals. Other divisionals are directly connected with deities like Indra, Varuṇa, Agni, etc. Perhaps you could say the navāṃśa is indirectly connected with a deity by relation of the sign ruler connected with each navāṃśa, but even then, you would only have 7 of the planets, not 9.
4. Multiples of the square of 9 (81) when reduced still remain the base of 90 degrees. What is he talking about here in relation to the "base of 90 degrees"?

Now, what IS interesting is that the nakṣatra system had two variants — one based on 28 and another based on 27. In this, we see a connection to 7 and 9 in connection with the moon. (If I recall correctly, the Chinese system might also still use 28 lunar mansions.) The system based on 28 lunar mansions is the older of the two. The system with 27 just started 5,000 years ago with Krishna. I don't know what more to make of it beyond that.

This connection of 6 with the sun -- is that also an Egyptian thing?

[SteveS]

Rings, I am only writing what some authors I have read stated about the number 9, other than that I don’t know anything. All I really know is when I computed my 9th harmonic using specific Sidereal Astrology criteria comparing it back to my Natal I got astounding symbolism that my first harmonic Natal never really explained to me. That’s all I know except:
Rings wrote:

This connection of 6 with the sun -- is that also an Egyptian thing?

I have no idea! But I had my first and only paranormal experience related to this Square of the Sun back in mid-seventies and it turned my life upside-down. I will PM you my experience and tell you what happened.

[Jim Eshelman]

Six and Sun is qabbalistic and from that, things coexisting that, and things spinning off that, reaches into many corners. Though I have no reason to think that Gann was using the same symbolism, here are the full qabbalistic correspondences. (Note the connection at 1 suggests intersection with Greek thought on how to enumerate these. The whole thing is pretty Greek in architecture.)

1 - Primum Mobile
2 - Sphere of the fixed stars
3 - Saturn
4 - Jupiter
5 - Mars
6 - Sun
7 - Venus
8 - Mercury
9 - Moon
10 - Earth (or the sphere of the elements)

[RingsOfSaturn22]

Six and Sun is qabbalistic and from that, things coexisting that, and things spinning off that, reaches into many corners. Though I have no reason to think that Gann was using the same symbolism, here are the full qabbalistic correspondences. (Note the connection at 1 suggests intersection with Greek thought on how to enumerate these. The whole thing is pretty Greek in architecture.)

1 - Primum Mobile
2 - Sphere of the fixed stars
3 - Saturn
4 - Jupiter
5 - Mars
6 - Sun
7 - Venus
8 - Mercury
9 - Moon
10 - Earth (or the sphere of the elements)

Now we're getting somewhere! Thank you!!

It's odd, though, that Gann recommended a number of numerology and astrology books by Sepharial, yet in them, these relationships to the numbers were not mentioned at all!

[Jim Eshelman]

There are a lot of numerological theories. Before I learned formal ones, I'd composed several based on astrological themes - for example, numerologists' portrayal of 5 always sounded Uranian to me. This was just part of a natural sorting out and trying to make sense of multiple things in relation to each other, and people are likely to do it differently.

But what I just posted is the qabbalistic model at least back to around 1000 CE, probably at least from the major diaspora half a millennium earlier - and perhaps older. They do, however, align with a Greek model of the universe (which could, of course, be from Greece's strong influence on the eastern Mediterranean for many centuries).

[SteveS]

Maybe these squares of the planets had something to do with the ancients building their sacred buildings over sacred sites. I have read where one author said the explosion of Goethe Cathedrals in 11th century was dedicated to each of the 7 planets with their numerical values coded into each Cathedral, I don’t know. I will try to go back and find Gann words where he is using 81—the square of 9 (Moon) in the markets.

[Jim Eshelman]

Maybe these squares of the planets had something to do with the ancients building their sacred buildings over sacred sites.

They simply came from the root planet numbers. A magic square is a math problem primarily - how to arrange numbers sequentially so they have the same totals in all directions. So the Sun square, e.g., is based on the number 6, has 6 x 6 squares (=36), uses all the numbers 1 to 36 so that all the total of all the numbers is 666 (sum of 1 through 36). Since there are six rows and six columns, each row and column has to total to 666/6 = 111. The rest is a math trick to find a workable arrangement.

Besides math book teasers, they've primarily been used in talismanic magick.

I will try to go back and find Gann words where he is using 81—the square of 9 (Moon) in the markets.

The four magic numbers of Moon are (following the same pattern as above: 9, 81 (9x9), 3,321 (adding all the numbers from 1 to 81), and 369 (3,321/9).

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Besides math book teasers, they've primarily been used in talismanic magick.

Indeed Jim! Long ago I had a paranormal experience with my consciousness with the number 111, it altered my life’s path in profound ways. I immediately was led to an astrologer and psychic team (husband/wife) in Chicago and instructed to meditate on the magic square of the Sun for purposes of new learning because of Mercury being associated with my Sun Sign Virgo, I did as instructed and here is what was eventually brought into my life for my individual learning purposes: Gann’s seasonal Sun Dates and Jim’s book “Interpreting Solar Returns” which led me to the branch of Sidereal Astrology. Coincidence or magick? This is when I started learning astrology and discovered my inner harmony of my Sun Sign Virgo and realized my natural analyzable talents was being used in business without me knowing my inner talents were being used. When I realized through my study of astrology of my natural analyzable talents was an extraordinary natural gift associated with my Sun Sign Virgo, is when my life started to become more aligned with much more harmony. These magick planetary talismanic mathematical squares seem to reach far back into ancient history used in various ways, even in architectural sacred sites/buildings, maybe for beneficial protection. They could be implemented with other's Sun Signs or Planets for beneficial protection, only each individual would know/realize.

In Gann’s course material in the chapter on “Master Charts” he writes:

You will receive six Permanent Charts, each containing 81 numbers….

Nowhere in his course material are these six Permanent Charts of 81 (Square of the Moon) to be found nor explanations for implementing them with certain markets. I strongly suspect they were used for markets which he knew was more associated with movements of the Moon (Silver market). For example he does say the Sun rules Gold and the Corn market and the Moon rules the Silver market. After I started mediating on the square of the Sun with its emblem, I soon came into contact with a man (the Admiral) who put the Company I worked for into the Gold market, which I knew absolutely nothing about. Magic or coincidence? Life/the Universe does have its magical ways.

Behind the wall, the Gods plays, they play with numbers, of which the Universe is made up. Le Corbusier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talisman

[RingsOfSaturn22]

Indeed Jim! Long ago I had a paranormal experience with my consciousness with the number 111, it altered my life’s path in profound ways. I immediately was led to an astrologer and psychic team (husband/wife) in Chicago and instructed to meditate on the magic square of the Sun for purposes of new learning because of Mercury being associated with my Sun Sign Virgo, I did as instructed and here is what was eventually brought into my life for my individual learning purposes: Gann’s seasonal Sun Dates and Jim’s book “Interpreting Solar Returns” which led me to the branch of Sidereal Astrology. Coincidence or magick? This is when I started learning astrology and discovered my inner harmony of my Sun Sign Virgo and realized my natural analyzable talents was being used in business without me knowing my inner talents were being used. When I realized through my study of astrology of my natural analyzable talents was an extraordinary natural gift associated with my Sun Sign Virgo, is when my life started to become more aligned with much more harmony. These magick planetary talismanic mathematical squares seem to reach far back into ancient history used in various ways, even in architectural sacred sites/buildings, maybe for beneficial protection. They could be implemented with other's Sun Signs or Planets for beneficial protection, only each individual would know/realize.

Fascinating!

Do you feel something is currently activating your moon in the same manner? Perhaps meditating on a magic square for the moon might be in order now.

In Gann’s course material in the chapter on “Master Charts” he writes:

You will receive six Permanent Charts, each containing 81 numbers….

Nowhere in his course material are these six Permanent Charts of 81 (Square of the Moon) to be found nor explanations for implementing them with certain markets. I strongly suspect they were used for markets which he knew was more associated with movements of the Moon (Silver market).

In this particular instance, he was using his idea of geometry, in the sense of having 3 dimensions (and I think he even mentioned a 4th dimension at one point in time). He was trying to form a cube and compared it to a house. He said every house needs a bottom, a top, and 4 sides. I might have quoted this recently in the Gann thread.

These are the 6 squares he was using.

https://imgur.com/a/FJrH0mx

You just made me recall something. In the Commodities course, W.D. Gann Mathematical Formula for Market Predictions: The Master Mathematical Price, Time, and Trend Calculator, he talks about the square of 144 (144x144) which he also called "The Master Calculator". (This is not to be confused with the Master Calculator for weekly periods, which is the square of 104 -- 2 squares of 52.) He mentions 1/64th of the square of 144 is 324 calendar days or market days. This jumped out to me because it is close to 12 sidereal lunar months (327.9 days total).

The thing with 56 years is also mentioned here. He says the Great Cycle is the square of 144, which is 681 months and 23 days. That's 56 years, 9 months, and 23 days. This is quite close to a series of 3 Metonic Cycles (19x3=57). In his early years, he never mentioned this 56 year cycle. He didn't seem to start talking about it until the 50s and possibly the late 40s. So it could have been something new he was investigating.

Also, he said half of that Great Cycle is 28 years, 5 months, and 8 days. This sounds close to one and a half 19-year Metonic cycles (352.5 synodic lunar months)! I'd need to check my calculations to see if anything important planetary configuration occurred around that time. (Years ago when starting my calendar research, I mapped out an entire 19 year Metonic cycle by hand to become intimately familiar with it, also noting the exact phase of the moon that occurred on every solstice and the number of accumulated lunar months and days. This helped me become familiar with how the intercalation systems work.)

Gann mentioned in many other places that many markets vibrate to the number 9, and thus, you can have success just simply by using the square of 9. In this publication, he mentions:

The Master Numbers are 3, 5, 7, 9 and 12. The No. 9 and its multiple is the most important because 9 digits added together equal 45. The next number of greatest importance is 7, the number mentioned more times in the Bible than any other number....The next number in importance is No. 5 which is the balancing number between 1 and 9....The No. 3 is mentioned in the Bible next to the No. 7, and 3 is important because 3x3 equals 9, the square of 3, and it is the first odd number that forms a square greater than itself. Three must be used in every way possible....The No. 12 is also spoken of in the Bible many times and is of great importance.

[SteveS]

Rings wrote:

Do you feel something is currently activating your moon in the same manner?

No, nothing like the number 111 did when I experience the paranormal experience back in 1975. Its just when I posted this topic thread I took a new look at the lunation cycle with the NYSE chart and was astounded at its sycronocity with a couple of major market panics. My wife Gayle was so spooked by the 111 incident-- she told an acquaintance about it in Chicago who knew this husband (astrologer) wife (psychic) team, recommending Gayle and I go to Chicago to visit them. I didn’t want to go—no way was this Country boy from Alabama going to Chicago to visit an astrologer/psychic, but Gayle insisted we go, we did and spent 3 mornings with them—it was wild what was told to me---eventually turned my life completely upside-down—put me on a complete new life path. They told me other people in Chicago were having inner conscious experiences with 111. There was some kind of main institute in Chicago (can’t remember the name) who instructed the astrologer/psychic that 111 was being experience by people all of the world. I was led to the actual Square of the Sun by an author from Europe who said these planetary magic squares were prevalent in Britain when the Knights Templers got back from their pilgrimage from the Middle-East, which was the exact same time the explosion of the Gothic Cathedrals began in the 11th Century. He said the Magic Squares had their origin in Ancient Egypt. The author of this book showed me through his book the complete Square of the Sun and this was the first time I associated the 6—111s around the square with the actual Square of the Sun with the number 666, which obviously has been perverted my the fundamental church as an evil number. It was quoted from the author of the book a passage which came straight out of the Bible.

Here is Wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred and three score & six. Revelation 13:18 :

This blew me away for I had already got into Gann’s Course material and knew Gann was deep into the study of the Bible saying he learned most of market knowledge from the Bible. Of course I went on to start studying the Bible as an adult outside the local church as I was being taught as a kid in Sunday School, and proved to myself the Bible was full of astrological passages. The Psychic from Chicago told me I would eventually get into astrology being initiated by out of print astrological books. By complete accident I found Jim’s very used out of print book “Interpreting Solar Returns” at a Metaphysical Book Store in Atlanta named “The Sphinx .” And it was through Jim’s book I was introduced to Cyril Fagan/Donald Bradley’s school of astrology. Life is a mystery how we are led to things for our life/lives. more later.

[SteveS]

Thanks for the link Rings with Gann’s six squares of 81. I really don’t understand why he was using 6 squares of 81 unless he was trying to see a market relationship with it cubed coming to some type of completion, but no big deal, Gann was a fascinating mind.