Measuring Mundane Vertex contacts

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim--USA's SSR for JFK's tragic death, a-lot of symbolism hidden without your work with this thread.

[SteveS]

Jim, Austin Texas 2025 Capsolar, I show a mundane Jupiter 01,02 conjunct the Capsolar Vertex (PV Amp) and a mundane Pluto 0,18 conjunct Capsolar DSC. If I understand your observations in this thread-- this is what you would classify as a Prime Vertical Jupiter-Pluto aspect, correct? Thanks

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, Austin Texas 2025 Capsolar, I show a mundane Jupiter 01,02 conjunct the Capsolar Vertex (PV Amp) and a mundane Pluto 0,18 conjunct Capsolar DSC. If I understand your observations in this thread-- this is what you would classify as a Prime Vertical Jupiter-Pluto aspect, correct? Thanks

Let's check. (By the way, Mike V has been making great progress on the heavy math stuff in Time Matters, and the information to accurately calculate these will be available in the near future.)

Calculating from TM, I get a Capsolar January 14, 2025, 6:14:49 PM CST. I'm using Austin coordinates of 30N16'16" 97W44'37" (just so we're looking at the same numbers). Pluto has a PVL 179°34', or 0°26' past Descendant. Jupiter has azimuth 88°37', so it is 1°23' before Antivertex. (They're on opposite sides.) Let's calculate the meridian longitude:

29°50' H6 - Pluto (179°50')
28°38' H12 - Jupiter (358°38')

They are indeed in 1°12' PVP.

I'm curious what is drawing your attention to Austin. I suspect it is sports related. Are the Longhorns thought to be contenders for the Super Bowl? -- Remember that the Jupiter doesn't count as angular - planets on Vertex-Antivertex do not show as angular effects in ingresses (sometimes acting quite the opposite) - but the Jupiter-Pluto aspect (PVP) exists. You have to interpret this without adding anything that comes from Jupiter itself being foreground. Also, there are good marks of athletic heroism and physical excellence. Here is my full breakdown for that Capsolar for Austin:

Pluto on Dsc 0°26'
Moon, Sun, and Mars more widely foreground
-- Sun-Mars op 0°11' M
-- Jupiter-Pluto sq 1°12' PVP
-- Mo/Ma on Asc 0°22'
-- Mo/Su across horizon 0°28'

So its fundamentally a Pluto chart - let by the heroic, explosive charge of a Sun-Mars aspect - with every possible combination of the Moon-Sun-Mars connected - which includes two foreground luminaries - topped by a Jupiter-Pluto aspect. If it's sports, it should be a great end of season for them (or a great season next year). If it's economics, business should be in wide swings and mostly booming with accelerated competition. If it's something else, I don't see so much human violence as natural disaster such as an explosion causing fires. 

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim, It is sports related, I will post details later in the Sports topic with more questions.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Let's check. (By the way, Mike V has been making great progress on the heavy math stuff in Time Matters, and the information to accurately calculate these will be available in the near future.)

This is great Jim/Mike, let me know when these calculation are perfected.
Jim wrote:

I'm curious what is drawing your attention to Austin. I suspect it is sports related. Are the Longhorns thought to be contenders for the Super Bowl? –

Yes indeed, for NCAA Football National Champions. Here are the Vegas odds for winning the National Championship on Jan 20, 2025; app end of game 10:45 PM CST:
Georgia (Athens) + 325
Ohio State (Columbus) + 450
Texas (Austin) + 750
Oregon (Eugene) + 850
Alabama (Tuscaloosa) + 1600
LSU (Baton Rouge) + 1800
For over 15 years since the playoffs began, any team at + 1800 odds or less are 100% to win National Championship with only one team at + 1800 which won the Championship. All other National Champions have been + 1000 or less.
The only above teams above which I show to have an active aspected Jupiter is Austin, Texas, which is a prime vertical aspect with Pluto as you verified. This will be a good experimental test for which of the above teams wins Championship.

[Jim Eshelman]

I caution you not to interpret this Jupiter as in any sense angular. Two separate large studies of ingresses showed that either Vertex contacts had no effect at all or (if one were to accept weaker effects) had the OPPOSITE effect you would expect - as if pointedly background. For example, in a collection of hundreds of charts for which Mars and Saturn were overwhelmingly common on standard angles and benefics avoided them (bad events), Venus and Jupiter had a weak statistical preference to be on the Vertex - as if to assert their non-angularity.

[Jim Eshelman]

Speaking of Texas, though: I just read that a group of major investors plans to open a Texas Stock Exchange in Dallas by 2026. (That would be a Jupiter event!) The 2026 Capsolar for Dallas has, among other things, a close Mercury-Jupiter opposition along Zenith-Nadir and strong Sun and Mars. Altogether, the Dallas 2026 Capsolar breaks down as follows:

Mercury on Z 0°23'
Mars on IC 1°18'
Sun on IC 2°34'
Venus and Jupiter more widely foreground
-- Me/Ma on angle 0°03'
-- -- -- Mercury-Mars co 2°29' M
-- Su/Me on angles 0°41'
-- -- -- Sun-Mercury co 3°46'
-- Sun-Mars co 1°16' M
-- Mercury-Jupiter op 1°37' M
-- Sun-Venus co 2°03'
-- Venus-Mars co 3°28'
-- Su/Ju on angles 0°15'
-- Ve/Ju on angles 0°52'
-- Ma/Ju on angles 0°53'
Moon-Uranus op 1°40' PVP

I think the TSE is going to open.


I then thought that the 2025 Capsolar might be more focused on Dallas than Austin, as things start gearing up. That's not quite the case. Orbs are much closer for Austin. Nonetheless, the same symbolism occurs in Dallas. I can also see that Austin's Jupiter-Pluto and Sun-Mars etc. might be showing what's happening in Dallas, since (1) regulatory may have to pass in the state capital as well as at the federal level and (2) Austin would likely show the wider impact of all of this on the Texas as a whole - part of its booming, exploding open business world right now.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

I caution you not to interpret this Jupiter as in any sense angular.

Jim, I do not interpret this Austin Jupiter as angular. But because this Austin Jupiter is a prime vertical aspect to Pluto per your mundane observations in this topic thread, I think it offers some symbolic Jupiter-Pluto validity for the university of Texas. Do you agree with this Jupiter-Pluto validity?

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes. I would tip it away from pro-Jupiter qualities, though. (Angular Pluto, plus Jupiter-Pluto, plus no or anti Jupiter.)

For example, if this were for a Washington ingress on a political forecast, I'd tweak it to be non-Jupiter something like the following. (This is my standard paragraph on Jupiter-Pluto aspects with editing marked.)

Challenging beliefs, traditions, values, and the political-cultural systems that sustain them (ideological extremism arises). Political undermining or reversals (leaders attacked, removed; fall of regimes; reversals in political dominance; covert operations). Reconstructing a social order (ideological zeal; defense of justice, liberty, democracy). Effective alliance; ethnic or nationalist coalescing, founding a nation. – Money crisis (blow to economic conditions: reversals or ruin). Recovery, healing, or correction (by heroic measures) of wrong (unjust, dangerous, undermined) conditions, turning a corner, reversing the tide (healing disease). – Outlandishly freaky weather events.

Or, in more personal (natal or predictive) as in a return chart, something like this:

Turning a corner, reversing the tide, recovery (correcting what's wrong). Shifting circumstances regarding career, finance, and prestige stunningly make or break one's reputation, uplift or debase one's station, or reverse economic conditions (fortune or ruin), perhaps forcing issues into the light for all to see and judge.

[SteveS]

Comparing Austin (University of Texas) to all the other teams (Cities) for a sporting context (National Champonship), I think it "tips" Texas way because the other teams do not have the prime vertical Jupiter-Pluto aspect. If Texas makes it to the Championship game, I will most interested in observing how this PV Jupiter-Pluto manifests. I can't ever recall seeing a Jupiter-Pluto aspect for a Championship sporting contest.

[Jim Eshelman]

Steve, there is a new "trial" version of Time Matters - still waiting for it to stabilize - but I wanted to show you some features that pertain to this question. Here is the Capsolar for Austin next year.

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Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA     Decl   Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang G
Mo 13Cn12'20"  3N56 +13° 8' 131°49' 21N59  60°22' - 5°45' 182°51'   6°37'  88% A 
Su  0Cp 0' 0"  0N 0 + 1° 1' 297° 2' 21S 7 248°36' - 5°17' 358° 4' 174°19'  91% D 
Me 14Sg30' 9"  0S42 + 1°30' 280°30' 23S47 253°30' -20° 3' 354° 5' 159° 9'  21%   
Ve 17Aq 5'13"  0S12 +59' 1" 343°38'  7S10 229°41' +38°24'  27° 9' 226° 7'  13%   
Ma  1Cn33'36"  4N16 -24' 1" 119°35' 25N 1  64° 2' + 5°17' 177°41' 354° 8'  91% A 
Ju 16Ta53'31"  0S33 - 4' 4"  70°34' 21N41  88°37' +44°41' 178°38' 315°18'  14% Av
Sa 20Aq37' 0"  1S57 + 5'33" 347°36'  7S26 225°33' +40°44'  31° 5' 230°20'   6%   
Ur 28Ar16'42"  0S15 - 0'49"  51° 3' 18N22 106°19' +60° 0'  25°57' 299° 0'  43%   
Ne  2Pi27'11"  1S17 + 1'16" 358°15'  2S 9 217°25' +51°10'  44°37' 243°56'   4%   
Pl  6Cp24'58"  3S17 + 1'55" 304°32' 23S 2 243°19' - 0°23' 359°50' 179°34' 100% D 

Notice that the Jupiter line now identifies that it's on the Antivertex (Av). There is also a new column, ML (Meridian Longitude). Once you see the Av on Jupiter, look at the Jupiter ML entry and also Pluto:

358°4' - Sun ML
178°38' - Jupiter ML
359°50' - Pluto ML

You could drop 90° multiples and call this

28°04' - Sun ML
28°38' - Jupiter ML
29°50' - Pluto ML

A 1°12' Jupiter-Pluto aspect etc.

[Mike V]

Ahh, a PVP opposition? (If so, you’re right, these won’t be hard to calculate and include down the line)

[Jim Eshelman]

Ahh, a PVP opposition? (If so, you’re right, these won’t be hard to calculate and include down the line)

I think technically it's a square because the dynamic is: Pluto on horizon is square Jupiter on prime vertical, and all parts of the PV are square all parts of the horizon.

But yeah- not hard. PVP aspects boil down to picking only the planets within a certain range of the three circles (I use 3° of PV in azimuth etc.), then, of these planets:

1. Conjunctions and oppositions in azimuth are conjunctions or oppositions.
2. Azimuth squares to planets near meridian (90° of azimuth) are squares.
3. ML squares of one planet on horizon and one on PV measured in ML.

That's the working definition anyway. It should be affected by the Class 3 orbs the user picks for minor angles.

[SteveS]

I understand exactly where you are coming from Jim with your TM points of observation, . With SF I identified the Jupiter-Pluto PV aspect, but never would have seen the Sun in ML contact with Jupiter-Pluto ML. Jim, I think/feel like you have really discovered something important for mundane astrology with your observations in this thread with the proper use for Vx/Av in the field of Sidereal Mundane Astrology. This will be a good locational test for Texas and their pursuit for the National Championship, pertaining to points you have observed in this topic thread. I have an old version of TMSA downloaded on my Windows 10 Laptop. Let me know when the time is right and I will download a new version of TM you and Mike are working on.

[Jim Eshelman]

With SF I identified the Jupiter-Pluto PV aspect, but never would have seen the Sun in ML contact with Jupiter-Pluto ML.

I cheated a little bit in order to give you more to see: Whether to count the Sun depends on definitions of the aspects; specifically, how close to an angle do the planets have to be for this to "count."

Meridian Longitude gives so many possible aspects, we need a way to filter it. I don't know that I've found the best way, but I've found A way - which let me test these in mundane astrology. I wouldn't have used the Sun aspects in the SMA book (under current definitions) because Sun is nearly 6° from Descendant.

Here is how I've been using these in practice:

• Remember the underlying idea: Parans of all sorts exist (at 0' orb) when two planets are exactly on the meridian, horizon, or prime vertical. This necessarily means they are 0, 90, or 180 apart in some measuring circle since those three great circles are always (at every point) exactly 90° from each other.
• Therefore, we are looking for the shared conditions of (1) two planets being on one of these circles and (2) the same two planets being 0, 90, or 180 apart in some way of measuring.
• The ones we have ignored until now are those formed when one planet is on the prime vertical and the other planet on either the horizon or meridian.
• Therefore, I start by saying that a planet has to be within 3° of an angle OR of the prime vertical. These are the only planets that "get to play." (This may be too narrow. However, the "too narrow" ones should be the most astrologically obvious ones.)
• In the chart above, the only planets that qualify (scanning the ones conveniently marked) are Pluto (0°26' from Dsc) and Jupiter (1°23' from Av). These are both within 3°. I wouldn't count Sun 5°42' from Dsc) or Mars (5°52' from Asc even though ML is 178°38'). If my definitions are too narrow, this could by a quadruple Sun-Mars-Jupiter-Pluto configuration in ML (whew!) but - narrowing things while we are still studying how this works - the prudent approach is to do exactly what you did and only use the very close "angle" contacts.

The ML column then tells us the orb: Jupiter 178°38' (28°38' in its "house") and Pluto 359°50' (29°50') are 1°12' apart. Since one is on the PV and one on the horizon, this is a square (since those two circles always square each other), though none of us care that much which aspect it is.

[Jim Eshelman]

Here's another example the astrological world (including me) hasn't suspected until now. I don't know for sure that these aspects "work" in natal charts, though one would think they might. If so, the following may become a major example.

Here is Donald Trump's chart:

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Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA     Decl   Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang G
Mo 27Sc12'58"  0S 2 +11°52' 260°25' 23S11 297°35' -60°25' 219°12' 116°43'  50%   
Su 28Ta56'27"  0S 0 +57'17"  82°18' 23N15 115°11' +59°11'  35°30' 298°21'  50%   
Me 14Ge52'17"  2N 1 + 1°52'  99°47' 25N 9  96°20' +47°35'   6°53' 312°15'  40%  b
Ve  1Cn45' 2"  1N51 + 1°11' 118° 6' 22N50  86°34' +32°25' 177°49' 327°32'   1%   
Ma  2Le47'18"  1N16 +33'29" 149°26' 13N47  74°45' + 3°26' 179° 6' 356°26'  97% A 
Ju 23Vi27'52"  1N22 - 0' 2" 196°37'  5S35  51°41' -42°44' 209°48'  49°40'  20%  b
Sa 29Ge49'41"  0N 9 + 7' 2" 115°43' 21N30  89°22' +33°27' 179°35' 326°33'   3% Av
Ur 23Ta54'20"  0N 3 + 3'32"  76°50' 22N57 122°49' +62°36'  46°16' 293°33'  52%   
Ne 11Vi51'16"  1N30 - 0' 5" 185°57'  0S57  58°34' -32°29' 198°22'  36°43'  48%  b
Pl 16Cn 3'16"  6N22 + 1'17" 134°21' 23N51  75°55' +20°51' 174°42' 338°34'  18%   
Er 12Pi41'47" 25S 9 + 0'12"  16°28' 20S22 215°35' +20°35'  16°59' 212°50'  50%

We all know he has Mars rising. (Technically this is a poor example because his Mars is 3°34' above Ascendant, outside the 3° boundary, but it's the only conventionally angular planet.) I'm sure I knew (but keep forgetting) that he also has Saturn on Antivertex (azimuth 89°22'). Are they...? Yes, they are!

179°06' - Mars ML
179°35' - Saturn ML

If we allow the past-3° Mars on Ascendant (and we all know that he has Mars angular: It's his trademark), he has Mars rising in 0°29' PVP square to Saturn!

[Jim Eshelman]

I think we have to be restrained, though. There are so many possible ML aspect, especially since everything is squeezed so close to the center axis. I doubt that all ML aspects are valid - only the ones that are parans. As a reminder of how out of hand this could get, here are all of my planets in ML (I've deducted 90° multiples - placed each in its quarter - just to see how it comes out).

88°17' - Pluto
-----------------
0°14' - Moon
2°50' - Sun
3°26' - Eris
6°36' - Neptune
13°39' - Mercury
15°39' - Saturn
28°33' - Venus
30°14' - Jupiter
30°22' - Uranus
35°57' - Mars

Do I really have all these extra aspects? Some, of course, are aspects we already know I have, like Mercury-Saturn and Jupiter-Uranus (though I don't think these orbs should supplant the orbs on aspects we already know, i.e., to preserve our sanity we should probably keep the ecliptical or PV orbs and not these tighter ones).

One might count the Moon-Pluto: My Moon (only angular planet) is a bit more than 3° from the angle, but this isn't a big stretch. Of course, they're in ordinary paran anyway so this might not give anything new. But look at Sun-Moon conjunct 2°36' (Sun is 19° below Ascendant), is that a real aspect? Again... this is new ground we're exploring, so I'm starting with conservative definitions that say no, you can't count that one.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Here is how I've been using these in practice:
Remember the underlying idea: Parans of all sorts exist (at 0' orb) when two planets are exactly on the meridian, horizon, or prime vertical. This necessarily means they are 0, 90, or 180 apart in some measuring circle since those three great circles are always (at every point) exactly 90° from each other.
Therefore, we are looking for the shared conditions of (1) two planets being on one of these circles and (2) the same two planets being 0, 90, or 180 apart in some way of measuring.
The ones we have ignored until now are those formed when one planet is on the prime vertical and the other planet on either the horizon or meridian.
Therefore, I start by saying that a planet has to be within 3° of an angle OR of the prime vertical. These are the only planets that "get to play." (This may be too narrow. However, the "too narrow" ones should be the most astrologically obvious ones.)
In the chart above, the only planets that qualify (scanning the ones conveniently marked) are Pluto (0°26' from Dsc) and Jupiter (1°23' from Av). These are both within 3°. I wouldn't count Sun 5°42' from Dsc) or Mars (5°52' from Asc even though ML is 178°38'). If my definitions are too narrow, this could by a quadruple Sun-Mars-Jupiter-Pluto configuration in ML (whew!) but - narrowing things while we are still studying how this works - the prudent approach is to do exactly what you did and only use the very close "angle" contacts.
The ML column then tells us the orb: Jupiter 178°38' (28°38' in its "house") and Pluto 359°50' (29°50') are 1°12' apart. Since one is on the PV and one on the horizon, this is a square (since those two circles always square each other), though none of us care that much which aspect it is.

Well stated Jim, I understand exactly where you are coming from. For sure, I must devise a format for me getting in a habit for tracking these PVP aspects with my work in mundane astrology. Unless I have overlooked something, of all the teams which statistically qualify for 100% accuracy with Vegas odds for one of em winning the National Championship, only Texas has the PVP Jupiter-Pluto aspect. Although only case example, this will be a great test for this Jupiter-Pluto PVP aspects, although I am not exactly sure how to read this aspect for a major sporting event. We will revisit this issue if Texas makes it to National Championship game.
Jim wrote:

We all know he has Mars rising. (Technically this is a poor example because his Mars is 3°34' above Ascendant, outside the 3° boundary, but it's the only conventionally angular planet.) I'm sure I knew (but keep forgetting) that he also has Saturn on Antivertex (azimuth 89°22'). Are they...? Yes, they are!
179°06' - Mars ML
179°35' - Saturn ML
If we allow the past-3° Mars on Ascendant (and we all know that he has Mars angular: It's his trademark), he has Mars rising in 0°29' PVP square to Saturn!

Again, only another example of few example charts, but this ML orb example of Mars-Saturn is the only aspect in his entire chart which most certainly explains to me WHY he has met with the “Principle” of so much “Harmful or destructive energy” in his life. At the right time I will need your help in functioning TM program to see these finer details which you have observed in this topic thread. Thanks so much Jim for taking the time to explain in more summary details for your thoughts/research on this aspect issue.

[Jim Eshelman]

Unless I have overlooked something, of all the teams which statistically qualify for 100% accuracy with Vegas odds for one of em winning the National Championship, only Texas has the PVP Jupiter-Pluto aspect.

Give me a short list of the others. Now that we have this working in TM, I can pop out the angularities for the other cities very fast.

At the right time I will need your help in functioning TM program to see these finer details which you have observed in this topic thread.

This will get way easier once TM has the option to calculate PVP aspects and include them in the aspect list. I think that might be within a month.

I suspect you don't want to download the alpha (unpolished, incomplete) version of TM Mike V has available now, although it is doing the hard part of the work now.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Give me a short list of the others. Now that we have this working in TM, I can pop out the angularities for the other cities very fast.

Here are the Vegas odds for winning the National Championship on Jan 20, 2025; app end of game 10:45 PM CST:
Georgia (Athens) + 325
Ohio State (Columbus) + 450
Texas (Austin) + 750
Oregon (Eugene) + 850
Alabama (Tuscaloosa) + 1600
LSU (Baton Rouge) + 1800
For over 15 years since the playoffs began, any team at + 1800 odds or less, one of em are 100% to win National Championship with only one team at + 1800 which won the Championship. All other National Champions have been + 1000 or less.
Jim wrote:

This will get way easier once TM has the option to calculate PVP aspects and include them in the aspect list. I think that might be within a month.

Jim wrote:

I suspect you don't want to download the alpha (unpolished, incomplete) version of TM Mike V has available now, although it is doing the hard part of the work now.

I will wait on the PVP aspect list Jim, let me know.

[Jim Eshelman]

TM is broken right now on calculating ingress aspects (it lists every ingress as dormant), but we can get what we need for this:

Georgia (Athens)

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Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA     Decl   Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang G
Mo 13Cn12'20"  3N56 +13° 8' 131°49' 21N59  68° 1' + 6°48' 177°27' 352°41'  97% E 
Pl  6Cp24'58"  3S17 + 1'55" 304°32' 23S 2 250°50' -13° 1' 355°40' 166°15'  99% Wa

Ohio State (Columbus)

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Mo 13Cn12'20"  3N56 +13° 8' 131°49' 21N59  69° 1' + 9°17' 176°39' 350° 5'  99% E 
Pl  6Cp24'58"  3S17 + 1'55" 304°32' 23S 2 252°28' -15°11' 355°19' 164° 6'  97% Wa

Texas (Austin)

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Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA     Decl   Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang G
Mo 13Cn12'20"  3N56 +13° 8' 131°49' 21N59  60°22' - 5°45' 182°51'   6°37'  91% A 
Su  0Cp 0' 0"  0N 0 + 1° 1' 297° 2' 21S 7 248°36' - 5°17' 358° 4' 174°19'  92% D 
Ma  1Cn33'36"  4N16 -24' 1" 119°35' 25N 1  64° 2' + 5°17' 177°41' 354° 8'  91% A 
Ju 16Ta53'31"  0S33 - 4' 4"  70°34' 21N41  88°37' +44°41' 178°38' 315°18'  33% Av
Pl  6Cp24'58"  3S17 + 1'55" 304°32' 23S 2 243°19' - 0°23' 359°50' 179°34' 100% D 

Oregon (Eugene)
Capsolar is dormant. The active year chart for Eugene will be the 2024 Cansolar:

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Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA     Decl   Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang G
Su  0Cn 0' 0"  0S 0 +57'14" 117° 2' 21N 7 302°55' - 2°28' 181°20' 177° 4'  98% D 
Me 26Cn20' 7"  0N 1 + 1°11' 143°48' 14N23 279°54' +10°31' 178°10' 190°40'  98% Wa
Ve 11Cn39'43"  1N20 + 1°14' 129°29' 19N52 293°28' + 4°30' 178°12' 184°55'  95% D 
Ma  2Ta20'52"  0S47 +41'53"  55°20' 18N50 357°30' -27° 5' 207° 4'  94°52'  95% I 
Ur  1Ta17'58"  0S16 + 2'10"  54° 8' 19N 5 358°47' -26°51' 206°51'  92°24'  99% I 
Pl  5Cp55'52"  3S13 - 1'25" 304° 0' 23S 4 119°23' - 3°17' 358°23'   3°46'  97% A 

Alabama (Tuscaloosa)
Capsolar is dormant. The active year chart for Tuscaloosa will be the 2024 Cansolar, which is quite miserable:

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Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA     Decl   Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang G
Sa 24Aq 5'49"  2S 3 - 1'42" 350°52'  6S10  99°22' + 2°59'   0°29' 356°59'  98% A 
Ne  4Pi47'27"  1S18 - 0'28"   0°24'  1S14  90° 0' - 2°15' 360° 0'   2°15'  99% Av

LSU (Baton Rouge)

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Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA     Decl   Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang G
Mo 13Cn12'20"  3N56 +13° 8' 131°49' 21N59  63°49' - 0°40' 180°18'   0°45' 100% A 
Su  0Cp 0' 0"  0N 0 + 1° 1' 297° 2' 21S 7 251°40' -10°40' 356°37' 168°46' 100% Wa
Ma  1Cn33'36"  4N16 -24' 1" 119°35' 25N 1  67° 3' +10°30' 175°52' 348°37'  83% Ea
Ju 16Ta53'31"  0S33 - 4' 4"  70°34' 21N41  92°10' +50°21'   2°37' 309°38'  45% Av
Pl  6Cp24'58"  3S17 + 1'55" 304°32' 23S 2 246°31' - 5°35' 357°46' 173°55'  91% D 

Baton Rouge has Jupiter 2°10' off Antivertex. Since Moon is 0°45' Ascendant, there is a chance they have a PVP square. Checking their ML column we get 180°18' for Moon and 2°38' for Jupiter: PVP square with orb 2°20'.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim, if I am understanding correctly, the primary function for TM’s ML column is for measuring precisely the orb for a PV aspect, correct?

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks Jim, if I am understanding correctly, the primary function for TM’s ML column is for measuring precisely the orb for a PV aspect, correct?

Specifically those squares formed by one planet in Vx axis to another on the horizon.

Other PV parans are found differently. Vx-MC is in azimuth, as are Vx-Vx conjunctions and oppositions.

And of course MC-Asc squares are measured in PV longitude.

[SteveS]

Specifically those squares formed by one planet in Vx axis to another on the horizon.

I am prety sure how to recognize this 90 aspect with SF.

Other PV parans are found differently. Vx-MC is in azimuth, as are Vx-Vx conjunctions and oppositions.

I think I understand how to recognize the Vx-Vx conjunctions and oppositions Parans with SF by checking the Reports column under azimuth and Vx-MC the same way

And of course MC-Asc squares are measured in PV longitude.

I think I understand the how to see these with SF, just compute a Z Analogue PV for mundoscope, correct?
Will SF or Janus offer ML where I can check the precise orbs of a possible PV 90 aspect?

[Jim Eshelman]

Specifically those squares formed by one planet in Vx axis to another on the horizon.

I am prety sure how to recognize this 90 aspect with SF.

There is no way to find these accurately in SF. You know how to estimate when they might be there, but Solar Fire has no means for actually calculating them or accurately confirming orbs. That's why we've needed ML (Meridian Longitude) calculation. At present, TM is the only software existing that calculates this.

Other PV parans are found differently. Vx-MC is in azimuth, as are Vx-Vx conjunctions and oppositions.

I think I understand how to recognize the Vx-Vx conjunctions and oppositions Parans with SF by checking the Reports column under azimuth and Vx-MC the same way

Yes, exactly the way to do it.

And of course MC-Asc squares are measured in PV longitude.

I think I understand the how to see these with SF, just compute a Z Analogue PV for mundoscope, correct?

Exactly.

Will SF or Janus offer ML where I can check the precise orbs of a possible PV 90 aspect?

I have no reason to think so, but they're welcome to steal these ideas. I'm sure SF could fit in a Z-Analogue Meridian Longitude option if they want. We'd work with them on that.

However, my understanding is they've been struggling to get Solar Fire 10 out. From a post by one of the people connected, the main thing SF 10 will bring is availability on a Mac also (for the first time) plus stabilizing the program after they've recorded it top to bottom. Once that is stable, they will entertain adding new features. My guess is five years.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim, this helps me a-lot. Also, I found your observations 2025 Capsolar for Baton Rouge (LSU) most interesting if they happen to make it to National Championship game with that Moon-Jupiter PV 90 aspect.

[SteveS]

Jim, check me out here:
I have got TM downloaded and the first chart I wanted to examine is my Niece 2024 SSR with her PVL SSR Jupiter orb aspects to her SSR Mercury & Pluto, although I realize you are not sold on these type aspects with SSR’s for people.
Her AA birth time: 7/1/1985; 7:20 AM; CDT; Birmingham, Al. Residence Birmingham
Here is my problem: With SF I get her 2024 SSR MC at 22,53 PI; with TM I get her 2024 SSR MC at 26,29 PI. Probably something to do with my non-experience entering data with TM.
At your convenience --Thanks.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, check me out here:
I have got TM downloaded and the first chart I wanted to examine is my Niece 2024 SSR with her PVL SSR Jupiter orb aspects to her SSR Mercury & Pluto, although I realize you are not sold on these type aspects with SSR’s for people.
Her AA birth time: 7/1/1985; 7:20 AM; CDT; Birmingham, Al. Residence Birmingham
Here is my problem: With SF I get her 2024 SSR MC at 22,53 PI; with TM I get her 2024 SSR MC at 26,29 PI.

Using Solar Fire, I get SSR at 7:13:24 AM CDT July 1, with MC 22°55' Pisces.

With TM - just to check all the details in case there was a data entry problem - I get for her NATAL chart MC 24°38' Pisces, Sun 15°03'56" Gemini, Moon 1°51'38" Sagittarius.

Using TM, I get her upcoming SSR at 7:13:38 AM CDT (12:13:38 UT) with MC 22°58' Pisces. - So yes, there probably was a user error in TM. With SSR calculated times 0:00:14 apart, the MCs should be only 3-4' apart. The MC you got 3°34' different suggests that either you used a birth time 0:14 later (it's unlikely you typed 7:34 instead of 7:20) or a location 3.5° further east. I don't suppose you accidentally had Atlanta?

Here is the wheel I get for the SSR from TM v. 0.5.2

Code: Select all

+-------------25Ar 0-----------22Pi58-----------26Aq 9--------------+
 |                |                |                |tSa 24Aq21 28°06|
 |                |                |                |                |
 |tUr  0Ta40 04°59|                |                |                |
 |rVe  0Ta21 06°09|                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |tJu 13Ta15 15°44|                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |tNe  4Pi51 10°31|                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |tMo 19Ar 0 23°20|                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |tMa 21Ar15 27°16|                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
  0Ge51-----------+----------------+----------------+----------- 1Aq 8
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |      Transiting (t) Chart       |                |
 |                |        S, Steve'S Neice         |                |
 |                |          Solar Return           |                |
 |                |     1 Jul 2024 12:13:38 UT      |rJu 21Cp20 18°30|
 |tSu 15Ge 4 12°22|       Birmingham, AL USA        |                |
 |rSu 15Ge 4 12°22|      33N31'14"  86W48' 9"       |                |
 |rMa 20Ge 4 16°24|           UT 12:13:38           |                |
 |   tEp 20Ge16   |         RAMC 16°38'55"          |                |
 |tVe 22Ge25 18°37|          OE 23°26'18"           |                |
 |                |         SVP  4Pi55' 6"          |                |
 |                |         Sidereal Zodiac         |                |
 |                |         Campanus Houses         |                |
 |tMe  3Cn 8 28°35|                                 |tPl  6Cp17 01°11|
  3Cn42-----------+                                 +----------- 3Cp42
 |                |        Radical (r) Chart        |                |
 |rMe  8Cn 4 03°49|        S, Steve'S Neice         |                |
 |                |              Natal              |                |
 |                |     1 Jul 1985  7:20:00 CDT     |                |
 |                |       Birmingham, AL USA        |                |
 |                |      33N31'14"  86W48' 9"       |                |
 |                |           UT 12:20:00           |                |
 |                |         RAMC 17°41'41"          |                |
 |                |          OE 23°26'34"           |                |
 |                |         SVP  5Pi27'56"          |                |
 |                |         Sidereal Zodiac         |                |
 |                |         Campanus Houses         |rNe  7Sg30 06°20|
 |                |               AA                |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
  1Le 8-----------+----------------+----------------+----------- 0Sg51
 |                |                |                |rMo  1Sg52 29°03|
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |rUr 20Sc29 21°19|
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |rPl  7Li25 23°50|                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |rSa 27Li24 03°19|
 |                |                |                |                |
 +-------------26Le 9-----------22Vi58-----------25Li 0--------------+

[Jim Eshelman]

I have got TM downloaded and the first chart I wanted to examine is my Niece 2024 SSR with her PVL SSR Jupiter orb aspects to her SSR Mercury & Pluto, although I realize you are not sold on these type aspects with SSR’s for people.

For the correct SSR from TM, I get these data tables:

Code: Select all

Mo 19Ar 0' 3"  2N43 +13°54'  40°46' 18N39 118°34' +63°50'  44°14' 293°20'  52%   
Su 15Ge 3'56"  0N 0 +57'13" 101° 2' 23N 3  73°11' +16°56' 174°58' 342°22'  36%   
Me  3Cn 7'36"  1N50 + 1°46' 120°42' 22N19  63°51' + 1°17' 179°26' 358°35'  99% A 
Ve 22Ge25'10"  0N56 + 1°14' 109° 6' 23N13  69° 7' +10°40' 176°10' 348°37'  99% E 
Ma 21Ar14'48"  0S57 +43' 9"  44° 9' 15N49 118°47' +59°33'  39°19' 297°16'  50%   
Ju 13Ta14'43"  0S42 +12'58"  66°42' 21N 0  92°34' +44°15'   2°30' 315°44'  31% Av
Sa 24Aq20'38"  1S59 - 0'10" 351° 4'  6S 1 216°24' +43°38'  37°30' 238° 6'   1%  b
Ur  0Ta39'42"  0S16 + 2'42"  53°29' 18N56 104°35' +54° 8'  19°12' 304°59'  49%   
Ne  4Pi51' 0"  1S17 + 0' 2"   0°27'  1S12 207° 0' +52° 5'  48°50' 250°31'  27%   
Pl  6Cp17'17"  3S11 - 1'18" 304°22' 22S58 241°19' + 1° 3'   0°30' 181°11' 100% D 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 Radical Planets                                 
Mo  1Sg51'38"  3S15 +14°22' 266°35' 26S39 256°18' -30°13' 352° 9' 149° 3'   0%  b
Su 15Ge 3'56"  0S 0 +57'11" 101° 2' 23N 3  73°11' +16°56' 174°58' 342°22'  36%   
Me  8Cn 3'42"  1N26 + 1°30' 125°47' 20N51  62°11' - 3°23' 181°35'   3°49'  97% A 
Ve  0Ta20'45"  2S51 + 1° 3'  53°48' 16N21 107°56' +52°29'  21°51' 306° 9'  49%   
Ma 20Ge 3'51"  0N58 +39'21" 106°33' 23N32  70° 5' +12°49' 175°34' 346°24' 100% Ea
Ju 21Cp19'40"  0S45 - 4'49" 319° 6' 16S38 237° 7' +15°42'   8°40' 198°30'  58%   
Sa 27Li24' 8"  2N15 - 2'16" 230°41' 16S13 291° 3' -54°51' 207° 1' 123°19'  50%   
Ur 20Sc28'48"  0S 2 - 2'10" 254°19' 22S41 266°24' -38°38' 357° 7' 141°19'  15%  b
Ne  7Sg29'54"  1N10 - 1'36" 272°47' 22S15 257°52' -23°12' 354°51' 156°20'  10%  b
Pl  7Li25'22" 16N54 - 0'22" 216° 3'  3N34 329°53' -48°38' 224°29' 113°50'  51%   

First, we have close angularities of transiting Mercury (Asc +1°25') and Pluto Dsc -1°11') putting Mercury-Pluto in mundane opposition 2°36' and putting their midpoint (in mundo) 0°07' from the angle. (There are other angular planets, but these are the only two on horizon or meridian besides natal Mercury 3°49' before Asc catching a mundane opposition from transiting Pluto 1°46' in mundo.)

Transiting Jupiter is flagged as on Antivertex. It's azimuth 92°34' confirms this. To confirm the aspects of transiting Jupiter on Av to transiting Mercury and Pluto (and natal Mercury), we look at ML. In the list below, I've dropped out 90° multiples to make it easier to read.

0°30' - t Pluto
1°17' - t Mercury
2°30' - t Jupiter
3°23' - r Mercury

So yes, transiting Jupiter is 1°13' from exact PVP square to transiting Mercury, 2°00' from the same to transiting Pluto, and 0°53' from the same to natal Mercury.

It's an interesting, complex SSR. You have the Mercury-Pluto to Mercury mundane aspects regardless. SSR Moon aspects SSR Mars-Pluto plus natal Jupiter-Pluto.

'

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim. Let me try to figure out what I did wrong on data entry with TM.

[SteveS]

Jim, I found my error by entering the wrong UT in TM. I have no experience using UT. Is there a simple way you can explain to me how to correctly use UT time with USA Charts? Thanks

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, I found my error by entering the wrong UT in TM. I have no experience using UT. Is there a simple way you can explain to me how to correctly use UT time with USA Charts? Thanks

UT is the same as GMT. It's CST + 6h, CDT + 5h, EST + 5h, EDT + 4h, etc.

You shouldn't have to enter UT, though. Just let TM calculate the return for you. (It even calculates them more accurately.)

[Jim Eshelman]

You shouldn't have to enter UT, though. Just let TM calculate the return for you. (It even calculates them more accurately.)

Now that I'm home, let me say more.

Since you said you put in the UT wrong, this makes me think that you typed the date and time of the SSR into TM after calculating it in Solar Fire. It's better to let TM do all the work for you.

In case you aren't doing it this way, I'll give more details...

On the front screen, click New Chart. Put in her name, date, time. Type Birmingham, AL in the location and hit the Find button so it pulls up longitude, latitude, and time zone. (For births before 1070 you'll have to enter the Time Zone and TZ Corr HMS yourself, but for your niece's birth date in 1985 it will look them up for you. Click Calculate.

Once the natal is calculated, click the Select Chart on the front screen. Since you just calculated the natal, it will be on the list waiting for you; otherwise, you can click Find Chart, click the folder for the first letter of her last name, etc. to pull it up. - But since you just calculated the chart, it will be waiting for you on the list. Click on the chart then click Solunars.

Fill out the form. It initially comes up thinking you want the currently active chart (the most recent one in the past), and will have the current date and time. Since you want her next SSR, click Forward on the top line. For this example, you don't need to change the date and time (it will to forward from the current date/time). Because she was born in Birmingham, this will automatically populate; otherwise, you could put in a new location and click Find (or click Recent to find a place you have recently used). So, after clicking Forward, the next thing you have to do is jump down and select the chart you want. You want her next SSR, so check the SSR box. Then click Calculate.

Voila! Her SSR.

[SteveS]

Since you said you put in the UT wrong, this makes me think that you typed the date and time of the SSR into TM after calculating it in Solar Fire.

Exactly Jim! But now I think I have got the data entry figured out for TM. Going to take me a while to get the hang of this new program. Thanks for your help Jim, I am sure I will need more for my learning curve.

PS - There is a new version 0.5.4 that fixes a couple of bugs with aspects and return charts.
https://mega.nz/file/4f1QnbzI#3vGLR1dXx ... Vl-gTxv5B0