My July 17, 2024 SLR

[SteveS]

Jim, depending on certain technical market factors I may be initiating a very low risk, possible high reward trade within my July 17 SLR. When you have time would love to have your read on this SLR including Eris. Thanks

[Jim Eshelman]

Let's start with the breakdown. Since you asked specifically about Eris, I should mention that neither natal nor transiting Eris is foreground, so it doesn't participate in the basic nature of the chart, though it is part of two non-foreground partile aspects that have at least supplemental voice.

r Moon on Asc -9°11'
t Saturn on IC -7°38'
---------------------------
t Jupiter on WP +0°56'
t Mars on Dsc +4°08'
t Uranus on Dsc +5°28'
r Jupiter on Asc +7°21'

t Jupiter op r Moon 0°13' M
t Mars-Uranus co 1°20' M
t Saturn sq r Moon 1°33' M
t Uranus op r Jupiter 1°37'
t Jupiter-Saturn sq 1°46' M
t Mars op r Jupiter 3°08'

OTHER PARTILE ASPECTS
r Saturn-Pluto co 0°09' M
t Sun co r Mars 0°14' M
t Sun-Eris sq 0°16'
t Eris sq r Mars 0°35'
t Neptune op r Eris 0°54'

FIRST IMPRESSON: Transiting Jupiter is the most angular (the only Class 1 angularity). It's opposition to natal Moon is quite close, though Moon is barely foreground and the effect of that transit in the lunar is diluted a lot (though you get the transit regardless of the lunar). There are mixed messages since Saturn also squares Moon, nearly as closely (but as a much weaker planet). First impression is that this is mixed, leans positive, implies profit but perhaps limited profit. The chart repeatedly speaks of finances, mixed messages, risk taking, and seemingly a mostly positive outcome.

Looking more carefully...

I rate the overall general tone of a return be weighting ALL foreground planets proportionate to their angularity. This gives a score of Benefic = 9, Malefic = 4 which tells me that the chart, though mixed leans distinctly positive. Another measurement even more in your favor is Dignity = 6, Indignity = 1. You aren't likely to lose your shirt OR your dignity this month and, in fact, are likely to buy a couple of new shirts and enhance your dignity.

In fact, since so many foreground planets are Class 3 (wide) angularities, we can get a tighter view on the strongest messages of the chart by dropping all Class 3 angularities and their aspects. That gives us this very simplified view of the chart:

t Jupiter on WP +0°56'
t Mars on Dsc +4°08'
t Uranus on Dsc +5°28'

t Mars-Uranus co 1°20' M

In other words: A distinctly positive outcome along with risk-taking.

Of course, we can't really ignore all those other aspects. I'm quite willing to say that the essential nature of the month is "benefic conditions and likely profit from risk-taking," but there is more to it. Saturn also squares Moon (not as close as Jupiter), so I expect profits to be smaller than desired. Mars-Uranus opposes natal Jupiter, so were it not for the closely angular Jupiter I'd think that this will cost you money (diminished profits may come from expenses you didn't anticipate? surprise costs?).

Within this picture - not to contradict any of it - I note that your natal Saturn-Pluto is a little closer than at birth (some extra effort or burden expected). Then there is the very interesting combination of a Sun-Eris square which aspects your Mars. We don't have a lot of information on this. I've already anticipated surprises and this might carry it to disruptions. In mundane astrology, I'd expect that they come from government resources (regulations or whatever) but I'm not sure I can narrow it that way here. We simply don't have enough data, so I'm left to guessing: I think this slides into the more obvious Mars-Uranus to Jupiter as unanticipated things. I couldn't discern an overall meaning while Eris was square my Mars, but looking on days the transit was 0°00' exact it was reliably an enormous chaos (what I have previously called a "Mercury day on steroids") that drew one of two reactions from me: Either moving very rapidly, very aggressively into challenges getting strong results fast and under great time pressure for no-warning problems, or having to work not to lose my temper from the pressure, especially in managing situations with insufficient data (often interwoven complexity). Another day I described as similar, a sense of mountain chaos with things seeming to get out of control and multiply rapidly (Mercury day on steroids) that mostly had me charging into the fray and under great time pressure. I should also mention - a little closer to the astrological thing you have here - that on the day Marion broke three bones in her ankle, I had transiting Sun octile the square of transiting Eris to my Mars - less clear, but still a hurling me into immediate action as suddenly there were numerous simultaneous things I had to do.

[SteveS]

Very interesting Jim and your words makes a lot sense if I do enter an option Put purchase for the S&P 500 Index with this SLR. Here is how I interpreted my Jul 17 SLR with a possible speculative trade.
:

Entering the market at one point during my SLR seeing fast large profits but with those large profits taken away quickly because of extreme market volatility which would probably be symbolized by my angular Class 1 Mars-Uranus conjunction. This means I would use a stop to protect from losses which would probably turn into a final outcome of small profits. I will probably experiment closely watching the market and IF-- as soon as I get possible 5 times my risk---take profits. If I make the trade I will post in details my actions so we can track the astrological symbolism as it manifest for learning purposes---it will be a fun experiment.

When you have time offer your insights on the July 26 SLR for the NYSE; May 17, 1792; 7:52 AM; NY, NY. I realize you are not sold on this chart as a true Radical, but just for fun, I wanted your TM analysis for this SLR as possible energies manifesting entering the NYSE with this SLR. Thanks.

[Jim Eshelman]

When you have time offer your insights on the July 26 SLR for the NYSE; May 17, 1792; 7:52 AM; NY, NY. I realize you are not sold on this chart as a true Radical, but just for fun, I wanted your TM analysis for this SLR as possible energies manifesting entering the NYSE with this SLR.

It IS weird interpreting with any conviction for a chart one doesn't know for sure exists - but I can certainly do it as an exercise. - My bigger concern about this chart is I don't know if it should be LMT or LAT, since we don't know whether it's a more recent astrologer's rectification or based on a record from the time - but I guess I'll go with what's here. (Location is Manhattan?) - The SLR occurs July 26, 2024, 11:34:20 PM EDT.

t Venus on Asc -8°01'
r Neptune on Dsc -4°20'
r Saturn on Asc -4°07'
r Jupiter on Dsc -1°43'
----------------------------
r Moon on Asc +0°18' [t Moon Asc +2°40']

r Saturn-Neptune op 0°13' M
r Moon-Jupiter op 2°02' M
r Jupiter-Saturn op 2°24' M
r Jupiter-Neptune 2°37' MN
r Venus-Neptune op 3°41'
r Venus-Saturn co 3°65' M

Oh, this isn't easy at all! Two screamingly opposite indications leap out. First, I wonder how the chart's Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune has worked when it has been emphasized in the past - since Jupiter-Saturn, Jupiter-Neptune, and Saturn-Neptune give us three starkly different investment and market stories - almost the whole gamut of possibilities.

Two benefics and two malefics foreground - the benefics have the closest angularity (other than Moon) and the widest - the malefics are together in tight aspect moderately (solidly) foreground. Foreground planets are almost entirely natal planets - no transits - which means the effects are probably innate to the market itself and not a consequence of outside factors (something just rhythmically, periodically working its way out in the market). If we drop out the wide transiting Venus angularity, we get the simpler story:

r Neptune on Dsc -4°20'
r Saturn on Asc -4°07'
r Jupiter on Dsc -1°43'
----------------------------
r Moon on Asc +0°18'

r Saturn-Neptune op 0°13' M
r Moon-Jupiter op 2°02' M
r Jupiter-Saturn op 2°24' M
r Jupiter-Neptune 2°37' MN

So the two loud voices are a natal Moon-Jupiter opposition across the horizon quite closely, and a 0°13' Saturn-Neptune opposition across the horizon a little more widely. If we stretch out a bit, the Saturn-Neptune opposes the Jupiter AND Venus.

I think I would summarize as: Somebody is making a bunch of money as the market tanks. This is depressive, bearish. But notice that it's not shocking - no shock elements. It may not be that the party is over so much as somebody spilled the punch bowl and we have to go clean it up and make some more punch before the fun starts again. Jupiter-Moon strongest means things go really well, it's upbeat. Saturn-Neptune, the closest aspect, means profound worry and anxiety as things seem to tank. Jupiter-Saturn means seesaw trying to balance, people figuring out how to win by losing something (selling short?) or what winning will cost them in the long run. Jupiter-Neptune is usually inflationary but the stronger Saturn-Neptune is deflationary, so Jupiter-Neptune probably means market delusions, some bad choices, and a lot of drama that doesn't mean much.

So I guess that's what I see: It seems like a short-sell heaven: It's not the end of the world but, for those prone to drama, it temporarily looks like the end of the world. (Or, something similar: The market suffers badly because there is a LOT of harvesting profits from where it has risen.)

Benefic-malefic balance is Benefic = 6, Malefic = 5, which means no real difference - a mix of good and bad influences that come out somewhat on top - and a lot of spotlight (11 points) from the dual angular Moons, meaning the finance news will try to make a big splashy deal about it.

Other (non-foreground) partile aspects don't really tell us anything additional. Saturn opposite natal Mars seems rough, Pluto square natal Neptune changes normal psychological expectations, maybe Venus conjunct Uranus is a wild roller-coaster thrill for a moment, and the rest are really neutral.

[SteveS]

Excellent analysis Jim!!! This tells me to take my regular technical indicators and watch for possible new all-time overbought top beginning July 26, then for a possible severe short term correction, a shake out of the weak bulls. What would r Eris partile cnj SLR Zenith possibly say with your experience with Eris? Would this possibly mean some kind of chaotic market correction, only if we are making new benefic all-time highs going into July 26 SLR? Thanks

[Jim Eshelman]

What would r Eris partile cnj SLR Zenith possibly say with your experience with Eris? Would this possibly mean some kind of chaotic market correction, only if we are making new benefic all-time highs going into July 26 SLR?

LOL, was it there? I made a point of custom adding it to your SLR because you asked but didn't add it to this one.

If Eris means what it seems to mean then we expect some sort of chaos and disruption. If this were transiting Eris, I'd say disruption and chaos caused by surrounding circumstances, but we can't expect that from a natal planet. Purely guessing we might say something like: Market behavior defies expectation. (Though how that differs from Pluto or Uranus, I can't begin to tell you.) The main is that - were the NYSE a person - we would expect that person to himself or herself be the disruptor, defying others' calculations, handling complexity outside of expectations, etc. This does seem like a day when conventional rules are insufficient. (Not that they are invalid or wrong or set aside - just that they are insufficient. The picture is more complex than the usual rules.)

Remember, though, that a 1° orb (more like 1°14') on a minor angle is approximately equal to a 3° orb on a major angle, i.e., the outer boundary of Class 1. The curves are tighter. With Asc 0°18' Aries, natal Eris 2°05' Capricorn is 1°47' from Zenith, approaching the outside boundary of Class 2 (equal to a roughly 6-7° distance from a major angle). TM scores it at 90% strength. Four natal planets are stronger:

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA     Decl   Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang G
Mo 26Pi48' 9"  1S27 +12°39'  20°47'  7N11  80°45' + 0°18' 179°57' 359°42' 100% A 
Ju  1Li 7' 1"  1N28 - 5'16" 204°50'  8S45 256°55' + 1°41'   0°23' 181°43'  99% D 
Sa  4Ar31'37"  2S17 + 6'55"  28°21'  9N12  74°16' - 3°58' 181° 5'   4° 7'  96% A 
Ne  5Li51'55"  1N49 - 1'23" 209°27' 10S 6 252°51' + 4° 9'   1°13' 184°20'  96% D 
Er  2Cp 5'10" 43S51 - 0'31" 316°27' 62S59 165°38' -16°47' 343°43'  50°34'  90% Z 
Ve 13Ar33' 0"  1S29 + 1°13'  36°45' 12N58  65°49' - 7°19' 183° 1'   8° 1'  87% A 

[SteveS]

I understand exactly where you are coming from Jim, thanks. Here is what has developed in my immediate environment the last few days which is "out of the ordinary" daily living.
1: I get a call from my friend in Gulf Shores who wants me to visit him for some much needed R&R after he has been through all the Saturn stuff re-opening his café after the fire.
2: He asks me what’s new in my life and I tell him about a couple of First Time Trade Charts pertaining to a couple of their SLRs that may cause some market fireworks to the downside. Coincidentally both the SLRs for NYSE & S&P 500 begin July 26.
3: My friend tells me he heard about an option trader who lives in Pensacola, Fl.---not far from my friend’s house. Says he heard this option trader is a guru KING option trader. My friend says he thinks he can arrange a meeting with him for us. My r Regulus (“King”) MC is partile cnj my July 17 SLR Z.
4: I think I will go visit my friend on or right after my July 17 SLR. At the very least it will be good for our souls---two sidekick friends getting together to talk about the good ole days.
5: Only if market factors look ripe, and depending on what we think/learn from the possible King Pensacola option trader, my friend and I may purchase some Put Options in the S&P mini Sept contract. Put options are for the purpose of selling short. But I have to know much more details about this King option trader to see if it’s a good fit for my friend and I, more so for me than my friend.
6: All of this has happened with my current SLR with an “outstanding incident” Sun-Neptune partile 90, so I am somewhat on guard for Nebulous thinking/stuff, but I think I will fool around and experiment with my July 17 SLR. It will be fun with Moon-Jupiter—also t Jupiter partile 180 my s.p. Jupiter on r Moon, may be time for possible opportunity.

[Jim Eshelman]

Regarding July 17:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=8677#p60525

[SteveS]

Beleive me Jim, when you first posted the above I took careful notes of those alarming indicators and seriously put em in the mix with my astrological work.

[Veronica]

Interesting Steve. Any chance you know this guru king birthdata? I would think that chart would help you learn more about the person before you meet them.
Sounds like you have some fun times coming up seeing your buddy. It can be very wonderful seeing old connections and friends and sharing stories and memories as well as making new ones.

[SteveS]

V wrote:

Interesting Steve. Any chance you know this guru king birthdata? I would think that chart would help you learn more about the person before you meet them. Sounds like you have some fun times coming up seeing your buddy. It can be very wonderful seeing old connections and friends and sharing stories and memories as well as making new ones.

Exactly V. Believe me V, if the business meeting takes place, I will get the birth data if AA available.
A few days ago I was invited by my good friend in Gulf Shores, Al to meet him sometime after the 4th of July for some possible personal Business interests (Markets) that he knows I use to be very active many, many years ago. My friend thinks this 3rd party and I share a-lot of market interests, time will tell. So, I looked at my July SLR and behold with link below my “outstanding incident” July 17 Moon-Jupiter SLR for Gulf Shores. Both my SLR Moon and Jupiter partile 90 SLR MC, with a 1,16 orb 180 of Moon-Jupiter. This SLR really peaked my interests! Its when “out of the ordinary” communications happen in your life, you need to pay close attention to your Sidereal Lunar Returns (SLRs) for possible personal manifestations or for just making final decisions. My friend has a malefic SLR so he will not be pursuing the same short term business interest as me, he is tied-up with his own personal business situations/problems. Since I have clear possible personal market objectives for this July 17 SLR, I thought I would post as these possible objectives may or may not unfold. It will all depend on the outcome of my business meeting which my friend is trying to arrange for my Moon-Jupiter July 17 SLR. Thanks for the feedback V.

https://ibb.co/S59WWCc

[Jim Eshelman]

In another thread, you wrote:

Testing Eris here for “chaotic” market conditions within NYSE July 26 SLR:
r. NYSE Eris 02,04 Cap
SLR Zenith 01,38 Cap

I get Asc 0°18' Aries which, for a minor angle, is a lot of difference. I checked with Solar Fire and got nearly the same thing (0°06' Aries). This is a big enough difference we should track down the discrepancy for your future use.

Do we have exactly the same data? I believe you said May 17, 1782, 7:52 AM LMT, New York, NY.

Manhattan is just big enough that an exact location could matter. Rounding to minutes, Solar Fire, using The American Atlas, gives 40N43 74W00 for "New York, NY" (near the south end of the island, probably the central NYC post office). Time Matters gives 40N47 73W58 for "Manhattan, NY" (in Central Park at the north edge of the pond: probably the geographic center of Manhattan). These different coordinates would give slightly different angles, mostly because of the small difference in longitude, but not the (almost) degree and a half discrepancy between your calculations and mine.

Another source of error from the longitude discrepancy is the actual time of the chart, since it is in LMT (based on the geographic longitude). Solar Fire's 74W00'23" and TM's 73W57'36" differ by 0°02'47", which is 0:00:11 in time. Not much difference.

A third possible source of discrepancy is in the calculation accuracy differences of the two programs, but for the 18th century this isn't much. TM gives Moon 26°48'09" Pisces; SF gives 26°48'10" Pisces. The 1" difference won't displace angles noticeably.

Presuming I didn't make a mistake with the birth data (May 17, 1782, 7:52 AM LMT, NYC), TM calculates the July 26 SLR as 11:34:20 PM EDT. SF calculates it as 11:34:07 PM. These 13s would alter the angles 0°03' (and then a few more minutes for the different geographic longitudes used.

So I don't get much difference between Ascendants using the two programs: 0°18' Aries (TM) and 0°06' Aries (SF). But you get 1°38' Aries and therefore think this is a partile contact that you understandably single out for special attention, whereas it's more like a 2° orb.

The 1°38' Aries you calculated - if I use Solar Fire and the geographic coordinates it uses - would mean SLR time of 11:37:55 PM - not the 11:34:07 PM Solar Fire calculated. That's a big difference!

I'm going to all this length because - unless I got the birth data wrong (please catch my error), you somehow got the lunar return time four minutes of time wrong, which will affect a lot of what you do with this chart.


PS - Where exactly did the original meeting of the NYSE occur? Isn't there some story (legend?) about men gathering one morning under a big tree somewhere? Was it, perchance, down near the current Wall Street? That was the most built-up part of Manhattan at the time (although great tree stories could have happened in Central Park). Solar Fire has coordinates in its atlas for the center of the Wall Street area - just put in Wall Street, NY - which are 40N42 74W01. Is this what we should be using?

[Jim Eshelman]

Researching: The date you are using for the founding of the New York Stock Exchange is the date of the Buttonwood Agreement - called "the earliest recorded organization of securities trading in New York among brokers directly dealing with each other" and "one of the most important financial documents in U.S. history." It was signed on May 17, 1792 by 24 stockbrokers outside of 68 Wall Street in response to the two-month financial panic of 1792

Now I remember the tree story: The legend is that the signing took place under a buttonwood tree (a sycamore). It was under this tree that these men had conducted all their early transactions and continued to meet. (Time Magazine called that tree "the tallest thing in the area, and at the center of commerce.")

Pictures (drawings) of the location show the tree at the edge of the sidewalk right in front of 68 Wall Street. The street edge of the sidewalk aligned with the front door of that address is 40N42'21'' 74W00'31''. (I first got the center of the building as 2" of longitude and 1" of latitude different, which would make no difference.)

We should be using for this chart 40N42'21'' 74W00'31'. This is the same coordinates (if rounded to the minute of arc) that SF gives for "Wall Street, NY."

LATER: Well, the document may not have been signed exactly there. One report says they named it after the tree because it was their traditional meeting place, not because it was signed there - on this occasion there were too many brokers to gather under the tree. They had secretly gathered at Corre's Hotel, which seems to no longer exist (but all these locations are within a few seconds of arc of each other, including the Tontine Coffee House built the following year which became their standard place of business.)

[SteveS]

Jim, the coordinates I used for the May 17, 1792 7:52 AM EST NYSE Chart for TM was: {Should we use EST or LMT? I haven't a clue, you would probably know.}
40N42,51; 74W03,50 Why? I can’t remember. For these coordinates TM calculated a MC 2,32 PI which I like from a main synastry point of view because its MC is partile 180 my Sun and partile 90 my Uranus, a couple of other synastry factors that jive with me. Susan convinced me with her work that comparison charts for a financial instrument were big deals for financial astrologers, also referred me to where Gann stated the same.

I will go back into TM and use your coordinates for this chart of 40N42,51; 74W00,31. Will this put us on the same page for any possible further discussions for this NYSE Chart? I really don’t know where or the source I got this timed chart from. I had it in my old Nova files which go back to the late 80s. My best guess is when I was doing intense Gann research someone gave me this timed NYSE Chart, which meant exactly nothing to me then because I knew nothing about astrology. A couple of years ago I started doing some Sidereal Astrology Returns work with this chart only using your book definition for “outstanding incidents” return charts and was very impressed with the return charts which proved to my mind this chart may indeed be a true Radical, but the main problem is IMO there has only been a few market incidents in NYSE entire history that I would consider valid tests. One thing that I proved absolutely to my mind with this chart was its class 1 180 Saturn-Neptune aspect was absolutely the signature for the 1929 crash by secondary progressions bringing the progressed Moon on top of the progressed Saturn-Neptune on the progressed angles. This is what convinced me more than likely this was a true Radical for the major financial happenings in USA.

[Veronica]

V wrote:

Interesting Steve. Any chance you know this guru king birthdata? I would think that chart would help you learn more about the person before you meet them. Sounds like you have some fun times coming up seeing your buddy. It can be very wonderful seeing old connections and friends and sharing stories and memories as well as making new ones.

Exactly V. Believe me V, if the business meeting takes place, I will get the birth data if AA available.
A few days ago I was invited by my good friend in Gulf Shores, Al to meet him sometime after the 4th of July for some possible personal Business interests (Markets) that he knows I use to be very active many, many years ago. My friend thinks this 3rd party and I share a-lot of market interests, time will tell. So, I looked at my July SLR and behold with link below my “outstanding incident” July 17 Moon-Jupiter SLR for Gulf Shores. Both my SLR Moon and Jupiter partile 90 SLR MC, with a 1,16 orb 180 of Moon-Jupiter. This SLR really peaked my interests! Its when “out of the ordinary” communications happen in your life, you need to pay close attention to your Sidereal Lunar Returns (SLRs) for possible personal manifestations or for just making final decisions. My friend has a malefic SLR so he will not be pursuing the same short term business interest as me, he is tied-up with his own personal business situations/problems. Since I have clear possible personal market objectives for this July 17 SLR, I thought I would post as these possible objectives may or may not unfold. It will all depend on the outcome of my business meeting which my friend is trying to arrange for my Moon-Jupiter July 17 SLR. Thanks for the feedback V.

https://ibb.co/S59WWCc

I most certainly hope that your Moon Jupiter SLR is as wonderful as wonderful can be, and that you and Gayle enjoy great health and prosperity, full force.
Its interesting to me to read your words and notice my internal processes, I had a few red flags pop up and had to self check what was drawing my attention and sensitivities.

I have seen in the world many very great people taken advantage of by people they think are their friend, and for some that is very hurtful. Moon Jupiter is such an aspect that gets taken advantage of, so I hope that you and Gayle are able to relax and put your feet up and enjoy each others beautiful company, and all that loving romantic stuff.

[SteveS]

V wrote:

so I hope that you and Gayle are able to relax and put your feet up and enjoy each others beautiful company, and all that loving romantic stuff.

We have been together for 53 years so something is working for us to enjoy each others company. It has to be true love, but I have told her she could have done much better than me. And V, I trust my friend's excellent judgement when it comes to possible good business matters. I have know him for 56 years and he was the one who introduced Gayle to me and the next day she called me---and the rest is history.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, the coordinates I used for the May 17, 1792 7:52 AM EST NYSE Chart for TM was: {Should we use EST or LMT? I haven't a clue, you would probably know.}

Not EST for what you told me you want. You have always given this time as 7:52 AM LMT. The return charts may come out in EST or EDT (since they're for the present time), but the birth chart - to fit the data you gave - should be LMT.

You could write exactly the same time as 7:56 AM LAT (local apparent time - the time actually in use) and get the same chart with less than a 1' difference on MC. But not EST. - You have probably been using a chart with angles 1° off from the "birth time" you've been giving me.

If I were to take a wild and crazy guess, I'd say that if this time comes from any actual historic record (I can't find that one exists) it was probably given as "just before 8 AM," which would have meant 8 AM LAT or 7:56 AM LMT; with "just before" being interpreted as 7:52 AM LMT. But I'm guessing (i.e., making up that story).

40N42,51; 74W03,50 Why? I can’t remember. For these coordinates TM calculated a MC 2,32 PI which I like from a main synastry point of view because its MC is partile 180 my Sun and partile 90 my Uranus, a couple of other synastry factors that jive with me.

Not that it matters much, but I now know for sure that Wall Street longitude and latitude are correct to the minute, with the actual coordinates being within a few seconds of 40N42'21" 74W00'31". For the data you actually gave (7:52 AM LMT) this gives a 1°31' Pisces. Interestingly, to get the MC you think it should be, just take the round-hour time of 8:00 AM LAT - the time type actually in use - and get 2°37' Pisces.

Was the chart from which you got the data stated as a time, or shown as a chart that you converted? (She might have made a math mistake along the way.)

I will go back into TM and use your coordinates for this chart of 40N42,51; 74W00,31.

That's 40N42'21", not 51" (not that it matters much).

Will this put us on the same page for any possible further discussions for this NYSE Chart?

If you use 7:52 LMT, yes. - Even if (as your work suggests) this time is even approximately correct, I think there is still room to wonder about the exact time and how it might have been given originally.

I really don’t know where or the source I got this timed chart from.

That's too bad. If it was a rectification, it would be as good or bad as the rectification, right? If it was a recorded time, unless very meticulously recorded (which seems unlikely with 24 brokers standing around), it probably was stated as "8 in the morning," or "just before 8 in the morning," etc., which would suggest a time of 8:00 AM LAT (four minutes later than you've stated).

Or, if your ONLY record of this is from your old Nova files, and you have it as EST, you might have put it in that way originally. This could have been a mistake on entering it (since EST wasn't created for another century) or could have been a way to force the time to work out. What is really interesting to me is that 7:52 AM EST is (within a few seconds) exactly the same as 8:00 AM LAT! Given the lack of historic records available, an even-hour statement, expressed in the time format of the era, makes a lot of sense to me!

By the way - if you want a real intellectual treat - calculate the 1792 Capsolar for Wall Street. (That's all I'm going to say )

[SteveS]

Or, if your ONLY record of this is from your old Nova files, and you have it as EST,

The time I was given which was in my Nova files was 7:52 AM LMT. I used EST lately because someone told me recently I could use EST and it would not change the chart enough to matter, but I just don't posses the knowledge you have in these matters. But all of my research work with return charts (SF) have been using the LMT for the Natal. I will take a look at the Wall Street coordinates.

[Jim Eshelman]

EST is 5:00:00 from Greenwich.

For that longitude, LMT is 4:56:02 from Greenwich, which changes the MC 4m or 1°.

LAT for that location on that date was 4:52:05 from Greenwich, which is 1° different from LMT and 2° from EST.

If you want the chart that produces the 2 1/2° Pisces MC, I suggest you calculate it for the Wall Street coordinates for 8:00 AM LAT. It givers MC 2°37' Pisces, Asc 22°51' Gemini.

[SteveS]

If you want the chart that produces the 2 1/2° Pisces MC, I suggest you calculate it for the Wall Street coordinates for 8:00 AM LAT. It givers MC 2°37' Pisces, Asc 22°51' Gemini.

Its not what I want, its what is correct. With your knowledge---would you use 8:00 AM Lat?

[Veronica]

Re: treats in 1792 capsolar

Wow.
Things like this make me think that I should read more books about economics and accounting and law.

I was curious what exactly happened to bring about such anxiety and the formation of the exchange. I knew it had to be Neptune Jupiter event, that's a very troubling aspect for many. It certainly is in my own life.


I dont know if I guessed correctly in my head, but based on your comment I inferred that the date of the capsolar was early Jan 11.
Studying astrology has certainly given me a different way (the correct way) to experience time. Five years ago I couldnt count like that.

[Jim Eshelman]

If you want the chart that produces the 2 1/2° Pisces MC, I suggest you calculate it for the Wall Street coordinates for 8:00 AM LAT. It givers MC 2°37' Pisces, Asc 22°51' Gemini.

Its not what I want, its what is correct. With your knowledge---would you use 8:00 AM Lat?

I simply don't know because I don't know the source of the original data. If I were to adopt the psychological space of starting to test the timing of a theoretical chart, I'd probably take the even hour as a starting point. - I was also responding to your statement that this was the Midheaven degree you thought was right.

Let's try this (I think I'd suggested this before): Let's look at directions and transits for major U.S. financial crises focusing only on angles (and somewhat on Moon to check whether the broad time of day makes sense). I'm starting with the 7:52 AM LMT (= 7:56 LAT) chart.

The early panics don't have obvious patterns. One that really suggests the angles should NOT be a degree or two later is the Panic of 1857 - use August 24, 1857 and you get directed Jupiter 2° past natal MC, making clear that we do not want the MC to be 2° later. (Maybe 1° is fine? The year or two before was a strong wave of economic expansion.)

But the Panic of 1873 - which specifically began with the closing of the NYSE for ten days beginning 9/20/1873 - has d Saturn conjunct the 7:52 AM LMT Ascendant within 16'. (There are other interesting directions but none that involve angles or Moon.) If the angle were indeed a degree later, it would be directed Neptune and Saturn together directed to the angle, though for this birth time Neptune is already past and gone.

The Panic of 1893 (use 2/20/1893) was the worst to date - at the time it was called the Great Depression - and has directed Mars 1°48' past natal MC. That's too far; but if the angle were 1° later, it would be within a degree.

The Panic of 1907 (10/22/1907) is a serious NYSE cave-in. However, it doesn't show well by directions. (If the angle were a degree later, d Asc would exactly hit r Venus when this struck.) The main trigger was probably d/p Sun conjunct r Mars. The angles don't help and somewhat hurt.

Similarly, the one we've both been waiting for - 10/24/1929 - has d MC = 4 Venus 11' for this birth time. (It works much better if the angle is a little later so that MC=Ve is the roaring '20s reaching their peak the year before.) A later angle puts d Asc = r Sun (significant but not distinguishing). If I drew any conclusions, it would be that this 7:52 AM LMT is a bad fit so, perhaps, a later time is better.

How about 1/19/1987? The crash would make more sense if the angle were a degree (or, better, 2°) later so we'd get d Asc = r Saturn. When Lehman Bros. filed for bankruptcy 9/16/2008, directed MC was 1°28' shy of natal Saturn, so would have done MUCH better if the angles were 1° later (though this 7:52 time does give d Asc = r Uranus). Similarly, d Pluto was 1°44' past natal MC so, if the angle were 1° later, it would have been partile.

Finally, 2/20/2020 again had d Asc = r Sun for this time - distinctive but not descriptive - and really nothing else.

[Jim Eshelman]

Ao, let's see just how good it gets if we move the angles approximately a degree later by using a birth time of 8:00 AM LAT. Using the dates that looked like they would improve with this time, we find:

Panic of 1873 (9/20/1873): Natal Asc contacted by d Saturn -35' and directed Neptune +45', or 0°05' from Sa/Ne.

Panic of 1893 (2/20/1893:) d Mars sq r MC +42'.

Panic of 1907 (10/22/1907): d Asc op r Venus -2', which is a bad result. (The main trigger was probably d/p Sun conjunct r Mars.)

Stock Market Crash of 1929 (10/24/1929): d MC has left the contact to Venus that dominated the two years prior (+1°18'). The only angle hit was d Asc op r Sun -18'. (The departed Venus contact makes sense, the Sun direction makes the time significant but doesn't show a crisis per se.)

1987 Stock Market Crash (10/19/1987): Not as good as I hoped: Directed Asc is still 1°23; shy of hitting Saturn, not moving into partile orb for four or five months. Nothing shows that seems a crisis.

Covid crash (2/20/2020): d Asc still in orb of natal Sun (+44'). Nothing else significant.

Conclusion: There was one bad one, two intensely-significant-but-neutral, and several marked by malefics touching or touched by angles exactly. This is pretty good!

Let's see if transits hold up.

[Jim Eshelman]

Taking transits to angles only. Using the 8:00 AM LAT chart for the test (because it has been quite exact for several of these for solar arcs).

Covid crash (2/20/2020): Bad result: t Jupiter 22°47' Sagittarius on Dsc -4'.

Lehman Bros. (9/15/2008): Good result: t Mars 22°41' Virgo square r Asc -20'. (It would have been exact about the time the world woke up and started reading newspapers.) Also interesting: t Pluto sq r MC +1°01'.

1987 Stock Market Crash (10/19/1987): Nothing unless you want to count Eris at 21°39' Pisces, which seems too far. Strangely, other transits to the chart lean positive, e.g., transiting Sun exactly conjunct natal Jupiter (1' wide at close of market).

1929 Wall Street Crash (10/23/1929): Transiting Saturn 2°37' Sagittarius square natal MC TO THE MINUTE OF ARC the hour that all hell broke loose.

Panic of 1907 (10/22/1907): t Pluto 1°14' Gemini square natal MC -1°23' (too wide). Transiting Neptune 21°26' Gemini conjunct natal Asc -1°25' (too wide). This event would have done better with the earlier time. BTW, t Sun opposed r Saturn +10' at the critical hour.

Panic of 1893 (2/20/1893): Nothing to angles.

Panic of 1873 (9/20/1873): Nothing close enough to angles. (Transiting Saturn and Neptune were again in aspect and closely atop natal Saturn-Neptune.)

Panic of 1857 (8/24/1857): Other than a Mercury transit, no transits to angles. (Main transits were Saturn square natal Jupiter and Pluto conjunct natal Venus.)

Panic of 1837 (5/10/1837): t Pluto 23°41' Pisces is still in partile orb of square natal Ascendant (+50').

Panic of 1819 (probably 1/4/1819): The most important is t Pluto 2°17' Pisces, conjunct natal MC -20'. If January 4 is the exact date, then transiting Sun also crossed Descendant that day.

Whoo! Not bad! (In fact, pretty good.) Based on these directions and transits, I suggest that 8:00 AM LAT is the correct time to use - giving MC 2°37' Pisces, Asc 22°51' Gemini.

[SteveS]

8:00 AM LAT it is Jim . I am mainly interested in the “outstanding event” lunars Jim, for possible quick fast profits with low risk if I see a possible pivot on a Gann Date.

[SteveS]

I love working with my benefic “outstanding incident” SLRs when they rarely present themselves for any possible objectives. I will slightly relocate my July 17 SLR to pick-up an “outstanding incident” Moon-Jupiter SLR. I will go into more details when my July 17 SLR arrives for all the possible manifestations, or not, with my objectives.