PVP Aspects

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Jim Eshelman
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PVP Aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman »

PVP aspects are experimental. I am persuaded they are important (essential) in ingress charts and have remained agnostic about them in other contexts. We're starting to see hints that these may be equally important in other contexts such as return charts and, presumably, nativities, but they need a LOT more work. Outside of ingresses, they should be regarded as experimental.

We now have all the coordinates available in TM that are needed to assess these aspects. Since we've had Meridian Longitude available, I've been watching various charts, seeing how the geometry works in forming these aspects, and am starting to shift my initially (admittedly artificially) conservative definitions.

Two major issues have caught my attention in this reconsideration.
  1. I originally said everything - whether on horizon, meridian, or PV - needed to be within 3° (or defined minor angle outside orb) of its "angle." When I didn't have ML available, I didn't know how all the MLs splayed across space (since it's obvious that ML distribution near the PV itself is very different than what we see ecliptically or in moderate-latitude PVL. Now that I can easily see these distributions, I see it's not so crazy away from that space range. I'll make a new recommendation below.
  2. Because these are experimental, I'm ambivalent about having them replace other aspects. So far, my conservative experimental view has been that if there is any other aspect of the two planets, regardless of orb, don't list a PVP. This is based on the idea that we (currently) only want too see it if it will add new information. (That's how we can assess if it is adding anything.) - An alternate view is that (like mundane aspects now) these should appear if they have a smaller orb. - My request is that they initially appear only if the same two planet have no other displayed aspect (knowing this may, and almost certainly will, change in the future).
I'll summarize the logic flow in next post.
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman »

Only considering, for now, planet pairs that are not already in aspect...
  1. Consider only planets within the widest defined minor angle orb of azimuth 90° or 270° (or hard code to 3° - probably use whatever Vx/Av display uses, and perhaps use whatever flag is set for that).
  2. PVP conjunctions or oppositions: Azimuth conjunction or opposition between two of these planets within defined orb.
  3. PVP square PV-to-meridian: Azimuth square (within defined orb) between one of these planets and another planet within the widest major angle orb of MC or IC.
  4. PVP square PV-to-horizon: Meridian Longitude conjunction or opposition [mod 180 will do] (within defined orb) between one of these planets and another planet within the widest major angle orb of Asc or Dsc.
  5. Defined orb should be the Class 1 orb for the same aspect (conjunction, opposition, square). If you prefer to add a separate orbs table for PVP aspects, do so; otherwise, tap what the user has already set for co/op/sq respectively. In this experimental stage, if it uses the existing user defined orbs, allow only Class 1 PVP aspects. If you create a separate orbs table, the default settings should populate it with only Class 1 orbs matching the defaults for ecliptical aspects.
  6. If a PVP aspect appears in the aspect list, follow it with a lower case p (similar to M for mundane aspects and reserving upper case P for parans.
One more comment: It seems (from looking at actual charts with ML) that my original intent in narrowing the PV angularity to 3° is met by the above criteria. I have definitely seen examples of seemingly valid, descriptive PVP aspects involving a planet in Class 2 major angle angularity and some that seem valid at Class 3. This likely doesn't expand by much the number of PVP aspects because we are still constraining the PV (Vx/Av) planet to narrow orb. This limits the contacts most.
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman »

Examples:

My chart:
Moon 3°15' past Dsc
Pluto 2°47' before Vx
(Under older rules I wouldn't have considered it because my Moon is more than 3° from Dsc.)
Moon-Pluto ML difference 1°57'.
Hence: a 1°57' Moon-Pluto PVP square

Donald Trump:
Mars 3°34' past Asc
Saturn 0°38' before Av
(Aain, under old rules wouldn't have been considered)
Mars-Saturn ML difference 0°29'
Hence: a 0°29' Mars-Saturn PVP square

King Charles III:
Mars 0°59' past Vx
Neptune 2°08' before IC
Pluto 4°32' before Asc
Mars-Neptune azimuth 2°57' from square
Mars-Pluto ML difference 1°41' (square)
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by Mike V »

Read and understood. I'll come back if I have any questions on this. (I thought I did, but I realized that you actually answered it by specifying Class 1 orbs for co/op/sq per aspect.)
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by SteveS »

For sure, IMO, the most interesting important NEW aspects which are becoming a missing link key for the type mundane work I do for myself, as well for seeing possible other missing links explaining better timing for my personal life. These aspects are not to be overlooked for the serious Sidereal Astrologer, IMHO. I just wish I had discovered them at a much earlier age with my astrological work. :)
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by Mike V »

I also had a pretty shockingly accurate experience with a recent lunar return with PVP aspects in it. I’ll be keeping an eye on them as well.
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman »

I'll put a few examples here from SMA mostly as a way of testing orbs but also to stir interest and show some of the CRAZY results we sometimes get.

The Nevado del Ruiz volcano eruption was 1985 Nov 13, 3:06 PM, 4N54, 75W19. Deadlier than any 20th century eruption except Mt. Pelee. When it erupted in 1985, it wiped out a town just as Mars crossed Descendant, killing 23,000 people.

The charts are excellent overall. The Liblunar was thematically correct for wiping out the village but otherwise a little too positive: Venus was 2°47' from Descendant with much wider angularities of Pluto and Moon, the main accuracy being from the foreground Venus-Pluto conjunction - which was on the wide side at 3°38'. Sure, death and highly personal loss like losing home and community, but too positive-feeling. I'd have given it +1.

Ah, but Mars was azimuth 269°26' and Pluto's 271°24' - a clear PVP conjunction. (Mars-Pluto!) Using the current filtering procedure above, look at these meridian longitudes!

358°47' - Moon
359°30' - Venus
359°45' - Mars
179°50' - Pluto

Besides the ecliptical Venus-Pluto conjunction and azimuth Mars-Pluto conjunction, In the most recent draft of the SMA book I caught the Venus PVP squares to Mars-Pluto and missed Moon's involvement (it is barely foreground). Even without Moon wrote, "The chart expresses powerful emotions, deeply personal loss, and community-level harm."

The logic is complicated, though. (The kind of thing computers do really well for us :).) We don't really want the Moon aspects (and the above logic doesn't produce them.) We are allowed to introduce new aspects ONLY by Mars. (Moon is not near the prime vertical with azimuth 262°). Therefore, Moon PVP aspects to Venus and Pluto don't fall in the definition EXCEPT we do get Moon-Mars.

Using the above criteria, besides the already-found Venus-Pluto ecliptical conjunction, we can add:

Venus-Mars sq 0°15' p
Moon-Mars sq 0°58' p
Mars-Pluto co 1°58' p

These are all really accurate!
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman »

The third deadliest tornado known to history was the Manikgang-Singair-Newabgang tornado 1973 Apr 17, Dhaka District, Bangladesh. All of the struck areas were in Dhaka district and Dhaka is capital of the country, so I've used the capital city to study this. Probably a thousand people died. - The coordinates for Dhaka that TM generates differ significantly from every other source checked (they may be the geographic center of the district, not of the city), so I've forced longitude and latitude to the 23N43 90E25 that SF pulls from The American Atlas.

The Caplunar is one of the best OMG charts simply for the voluminous information it gives. This close to the equator (nearly tropical - the good kind of tropical :) ), it's not unusual for all the planets to squeeze near the prime vertical (just as they squeeze near the horizon at extreme north and south latitudes). If we ignore PVP aspects, the Caplunar is at least adequate... but leaning just a tiny bit too positive. Again, though, the main focus is on loss of relationship (in this case through destruction, death, and loss of home and community).

Sun on Dsc 0°05'
Pluto on EP-a 1°06'
Venus on Dsc 3°14'
-- Venus-Pluto op 1°35'
------ Ve/Pl on angles 0°30'
-- Sun-Venus co 3°08'
------ Su/Ve on angles 0°04'
-- Su/Pl on angles 0°34'
Moon-Uranus sq 2°39' M

But then... we look at the PVP aspects... Four planets are marked as on the Vertex or Antivertex (and Venus is also close enough, though she is already seen on Descendant). Just looking for azimuth conjunctions and oppositions of these due east-west planets (PVP conjunctions and oppositions), we get:

268°48' - Saturn
89°16' - Neptune
---------------------
272°00' - Venus
272°06' - Mars
92°34' - Uranus

(BTW, if we stretched the 3° orb only one more degree, three more planets would be in the list.) The aspects that emerge from this are:

Venus-Mars co 0°06' p
Saturn-Neptune op 0°28' p
Mars-Uranus op 0°28' p
Venus-Uranus op 0°34' p

We then also need to consider PVP squares - they will all be to Sun, Pluto, and Venus on the horizon. Here are the MLs for building the list (planets on the horizon are in italics), dropping multiples of 180°:

28°53' - Pluto
29°22' - Uranus
----------------------
0°00' - Sun
0°07' - Venus
1°14' - Neptune
2°53' - Saturn
4°59' - Mars

Look at the aspects this produces!

Uranus-Pluto sq 0°29' p
Sun-Uranus sq 0°38' p
Venus-Neptune sq 1°07' p
Sun-Neptune sq 1°14' p
Neptune-Pluto sq 2°21' p
Venus-Saturn sq 2°46' p
Sun-Saturn sq 2°53' p


The final, complete breakdown of this Caplunar becomes:

Sun on Dsc 0°05'
Pluto on EP-a 1°06'
Venus on Dsc 3°14'
-- Sun/Venus on angles 0°04' [Sun-Venus co 3°08']
-- Venus-Mars co 0°06' p
-- Venus/Pluto on angles 0°30' [Venus-Pluto op 1°35']
-- Saturn-Neptune op 0°28' p
-- Mars-Uranus op 0°28' p
-- Venus-Uranus op 0°34' p
-- Sun-Uranus sq 0°38' p
-- Uranus-Pluto sq 0°29' p
-- Venus-Neptune sq 1°07' p
-- Sun-Neptune sq 1°14' p
-- Neptune-Pluto sq 2°21' p
-- Venus-Saturn sq 2°46' p
-- Sun-Saturn sq 2°53' p
-- Su/Pl on angles 0°34'
Moon-Uranus sq 2°39' M
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by SteveS »

Jim wrote:
Ah, but Mars was azimuth 269°26' and Pluto's 271°24' - a clear PVP conjunction. (Mars-Pluto!) Using the current filtering procedure above, look at these meridian longitudes!
Bingo!!!

I have an example for the S&P 500 10/07/1987 SLR where the Sun & Moon (Major Event) was on the Vx-Av axis in AZI; Sun 89,11; Moon 269,28, backed by a rotational square of Mars-Neptune with Neptune partile cnj SLR IC. Eris partile cnj S&P r Moon!!! This was the “outstanding incident” SLR which preceded the Black Monday (10/19/1987) market panic with prices losing 20% value in a few days. It is perfect symbolism for a panic, and I would rate it a + 3. No doubt in my mind Jim you have discovered a huge missing link for more accurate timed charts with more precise symbolism. It is never too late for you/us to discover new important functions for very important planetary pictures for our work!!!
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman »

I am certain I have never seen one spot on Earth concentrate malefic presence so tightly as the Arilunar - the Week chart - for the Durham gas explosion 2019 Apr 10, 10:07 AM EDT, Durham, NC (specifically 36N00'01", 78W54'36"). The explosion was small on casualties and huge on impact: Only two people died (with 25 others injured) but half a city block was destroyed. An office across the street was described as "blown out."

All the main charts were good or better, but the Arilunar - the Week chart - was mind-bending by converging angularities on three separate reference circles - literally three dimensional - all within about 0°01' of arc. (TM stretches that to about 2'.)

Simple stuff first: Mars is 0°02' below Descendant in the Arilunar. Neptune is 0°02' past IC. That gives them a 0°00' mundane square. (Classic paran.)

Simultaneously, Saturn at azimuth 89°59' is 0°01' from due east (on the Antivertex). This places all three malefics – Mars, Saturn, and Neptune – within a minute or two of one of the three great circles that define the mundane framework and, therefore, all at right angles to each other: Mars squares Saturn 0°00' PVP (in ML); Mars square Neptune 0°00' in mundo (PVL); and Saturn squares Neptune 0°04' PVP (in azimuth).

But wait, there’s more!

Pluto (azimuth 88°12') is less than 2° from the prime vertical in PVP square with Mars (1°34' in ML) and Neptune (1°51' in azimuth), and PVP conjunction with Saturn (1°47' in azimuth).

Of course, that’s not all either.

Mercury 2°10' before IC conjoins Neptune (1°57'), squares Mars (2°13' mundo), and squares Pluto (1°54' in azimuth).

Oh, and Moon squares Pluto (1°56'), a good ol’ fashioned ecliptical square.
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by SteveS »

Outstanding symbolism Jim!
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Re: PRIORITY WISH LIST - PVP Aspects

Post by Veronica »

Sure does seem that sometimes things really do seem to simply say F U at a certain time.
I suppose if a human can have a disease like tourette's bleeping out explisatives unexplicatively then the grand cosmos must too.
Sympathy to those who died so horribly.
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