Mike's PVP aspects in Lunars

[Mike V]

I'm making this thread to track PVP aspects in SLRs and Demi-SLRS. I was poking around at my upcoming charts and one stood out to me in particular to start with:

9/19/24 - Demi-SLR
t. Uranus As -0°18'
r. Mars Ds -4°06'
r. Venus MC +4°28'
r. Pluto Ds -5°25'

r. Mars co r. Pluto 1°19' M

PVP:
t. Venus sq r. Pluto 0°00'
t. Venus sq t. Uranus 0°30' p
t. Venus sq r. Mars 1°05' p
t. Venus sq r. Venus 1°35' p

Obviously, the planet on Vertex here is transiting Venus, aspecting all of the other foreground planets. What is most interesting is that the widest angularity, natal Pluto, is involved in the closest PVP square (exact to the minute, no less). Natal Venus is angular, but is not involved in any ecliptical or mundane aspects - so if there is noticeable Venus involvement with these foreground planets, I would think it would have to come from the PVP aspects.

[Mike V]

This is coming to a close in the next few days.

My fortnight was certainly full of surprises, with those being the primary theme. The other planets were decently descriptive - a lot of busyness and expending resources to keep on top of everything, a good amount of being social, wanting to just get away from all of the things I have going on - but nothing major.

Now, as for transiting Venus and all of her aspects - let's take a look.

t. Venus sq r. Pluto 0°00' p - I had a number of really intense exchanges with very close friends, and also a kind of intense exchange and then termination of a fledgling romantic option (I definitely dodged a bullet there). This seems decidedly more descriptive to me of the last 2 weeks than just transiting Uranus and then separately natal Venus and Pluto.

t. Venus sq t. Uranus 0°30' p - There have definitely been shifts in my friendships, new developments, and a renewing of my closest friendship. Again, I think this chart only gets more descriptive with this aspect included.

t. Venus sq r. Mars 1°05' p - I'm not sure about this. I think Jim refactored the interpretation of this (on Solunars) as a transit; "feeling powerful" and "pleasure through feeling strong" are generally appropriate, but not strikingly so. Although, on further reflection, I need to mention that this has been a much less reactive Demi-SLR than I normally have with natal Mars angular. (I am used to that consistently showing up as irritability, undirected anger, and generally being very emotionally reactive.)

t. Venus sq r. Venus 1°35' p - This is really descriptive. I've been both feeling much more social and affectionate, and being socialized with much more.

Overall, I would say these were totally believable. The feeling of transiting Venus was very prominent in this return.

[Mike V]

This upcoming return will also have notable PVP aspects in it.

t. Venus EP-a 0°13'
r. Pluto As +4°47'
t. Uranus WP-a 2°09'

t. Venus op r. Uranus 2°09'

Other partile:
r. Moon sq r. Saturn 15' M
t. Sun op t. Eris 39' M

PVP:
r. Jupiter sq r. Pluto 0°46' p
r. Uranus sq r. Pluto 0°53' p
r. Jupiter op r. Uranus 1°36' p

Natal Jupiter and Uranus are both listed on Vertex; Jupiter should be on Antivertex. (I'll have to make a note to check that out and fix it.)

I doubt that I'm going to be able to detect Jupiter-Uranus since I have that aspect natally anyway, and not much wider than this orb. However, their aspects to Pluto are new. The last time I had natal Jupiter-Pluto as a PVP aspect, it seemed unusually relevant; I'll be interested to see if that is the case this time as well.

[Mike V]

Natal Jupiter-Pluto seems reasonable. No obvious outward events, but the aspect seems decent at describing my mental state for the past 2 weeks.
Natal Uranus-Pluto is reasonable for the same reasons.

I have had some pretty useful spiritual experiences during this time, and Jupiter-Uranus is reasonable to describe them (and natal Pluto describes the circumstances).

To be honest, I have always had a hard time detecting new natal mundane aspects in these contexts. I'll give the PVP aspects a +1 for this one: not terribly impressive, but I think that the chart's accuracy benefits from their inclusion.

[Mike V]

Here's an interesting one, and I get to post it in my Eris thread too:

r. Eris Z -0°09'
r. Saturn Ds +1°34'
r. Mercury Ds -1°48'
r. Neptune Ds +3°49'
t. Neptune MC +4°29'
r. Moon IC -8°25'
r. Sun WP-a 2°11'
r. Jupiter As +8°44'

r. Moon sq r. Neptune 0°08'
t. Neptune sq r. Neptune 0°40' M
r. Saturn sq r. Eris 1°56'
t. Neptune sq r. Sun 2°11'
r. Moon sq r. Saturn 2°35'
r. Mercury sq r. Eris 2°43'
r. Saturn co r. Neptune 2°43'
t. Neptune sq r. Saturn 2°55' M

r. Mars sq r. Saturn 0°24' p
r. Mars sq r. Neptune 0°25' p
r. Mercury sq r. Mars 1°49' p
r. Mars sq r. Jupiter 2°05' p

It's my Moon-Saturn-Neptune on angles, plus the Mercury-Saturn-Eris ecliptical cluster. I'm gonna ignore Eris in this thread.

At best, it looks like my intense creativity coming out to play, with a mind for slow and steady work - but this can easily turn confusing, reactive, and depressive. Circumstances probably rouse intense emotional reactions. I look like I'm a pain in the butt for others to deal with. (Sorry in advance. I'll try to be creative during this time instead.)

My natal Mars is on Vertex, with close squares to natal Saturn-Neptune and wider squares to Mercury-Jupiter. This adds a very intriguing dynamic. If this is valid, I would expect significant active struggle and anger. Reactivity is going to be hard to blame on Mars-Neptune since I already have double Neptune foreground. I guess the question will be: how active and outward-focused am I able to be next month? We'll find out.

[Veronica]

Mike, thanks again for sharing yourself like this. I had a thought about this lunar, and wanted to ask a bout your silliness factor? I ask because I looked at you return and with those aspects I thought that possibly it was a time to bring levity, and silliness out of the bag. That Jupiter Mercury seems like its cutting through some serious bs and nothing cuts like jovial laughter in the face of trouble. I dont think we here have worries about you being a "pita" , at least I doubt I would feel that way due to our synastry and my character.

[Mike V]

My silliness factor is, in general, quite healthy However, you're right in that now is the right time to use silliness and break the Saturnian seriousness. Thank you for the thoughts

[Mike V]

r. Mars sq r. Saturn 0°24' p
r. Mars sq r. Neptune 0°25' p
r. Mercury sq r. Mars 1°49' p
r. Mars sq r. Jupiter 2°05' p

It's my Moon-Saturn-Neptune on angles, plus the Mercury-Saturn-Eris ecliptical cluster. I'm gonna ignore Eris in this thread.

...

My natal Mars is on Vertex, with close squares to natal Saturn-Neptune and wider squares to Mercury-Jupiter. This adds a very intriguing dynamic. If this is valid, I would expect significant active struggle and anger. Reactivity is going to be hard to blame on Mars-Neptune since I already have double Neptune foreground. I guess the question will be: how active and outward-focused am I able to be next month? We'll find out.

Under this SLR, I've been revisiting a lot of previous work I've done on the concept of projections, mine in particular. A lot of this relates to getting bullied by peers in childhood, and what I've internalized from that. There's a lot of hurt and anger in there, as you'd expect with such projections.

While natal Moon-Saturn-Neptune (and double Neptune no less) is appropriate already, I think natal Mars aspecting Saturn-Neptune adds accurate information to this. We'll see if anything else develops over the next month.

It's worth mentioning that, with these PVP aspects, I temporarily end up with a close T-square of all 3 malefics in this chart.

[Mike V]

I tend to have a hard time discerning new natal aspects in return charts. With that said, I definitely have had a lot of anger these past 2 weeks - so the fact that natal Mars is acutely background but involved in PVP aspects makes me think that these PVP aspects are valid here. (Transiting Mars is even further background.)

I have drank moderately heavily a few times on the past 2 weeks, which is not my usual behavior.

I would give this set of PVP aspects +2 for this chart. They add themes that are rather significant for me in my consideration of the rest.
The 2 closest aspects are by far the most important. Mercury-Mars seems quite valid, though I have this aspect as a wide octile in my natal chart (and I've always felt it was operative).
Mars-Jupiter seems reasonably accurate, but its most obvious themes for me (returning to competitive games as a much-needed outlet) began before this SLR happened, so I'll label that one as "not totally convincing."

[SteveS]

Thanks Mike, your feedback with the PVP aspects helpsus learn.

[Jim Eshelman]

Because of the anger forms, I'm inclined to take the Mars aspects more seriously, too. You seem to be describing the pattern of many people who have Mars-Saturn and spend much of the life reacting against abuse and discrimination of one kind or another. Mars-Saturn-Neptune is an ugly state.

OTOH, most of what you're describing fits right with the demoralization of transiting Neptune to natal Sun-Saturn-Neptune and the bringing of your natal Moon-Saturn-Neptune to the fore.

But, yeah, Mars-Saturn-Neptune is the pile-on.

[Mike V]

Because of the anger forms, I'm inclined to take the Mars aspects more seriously, too.

This always stands out to me when natal Mars is heavily involved in SLRs. It is a very reliable manifestation for me. It not being foreground but involved in foreground aspects also seems to be activating it in this instance.

You describing it as a prototypical Mars-Saturn manifestation makes me feel even more confident about it here.

It would've been nice if the wider PVP aspects contrasted a lot with other chart themes so I could make stronger statements about orb cutoffs. At the very least, the 2° cutoff seems to be relevant (matching your relation of this orb to natal octile orbs); Mercury-Mars is much easier to see than Mars-Jupiter despite their orbs being really close to each other. The 1°30' orb cutoff I observed previously also seems to apply here (though it could be 1° for all I know; the gap between Mars-Saturn-Neptune and the other aspects is pretty wide), but not very sharply.

[Jim Eshelman]

If (as we're beginning to suspect) this matches the octilr and minor angle curve (which are the same) then Class 1cends at 1 14', Class 2 at 2 00', and Class 3 at 3 00'. In that case, these make a lot of sense.

[Mike V]

I have another interesting case coming up.

My new Demi-SLR for Southern California is very straightforward - just t. Jupiter, r. Mars, t. Mercury, and a hint of t. Uranus, with no foreground aspects.

However, I'm traveling to Pocono Summit, PA tomorrow and flying back on Sunday. I'm going to be hanging out with a lot of friends for the first time in over a year, and meeting some in person for the first time. Although I never look forward to travel, I am expecting this to be a lot of fun (despite the relocated chart).

That relocated Demi-SLR is much more interesting:

r. Neptune WP-a 0°13'
t. Pluto Ds +1°38'
t. Mars As -2°03'
t. Moon MC +2°16'
r. Saturn WP -1°00'
r. Venus Ds -5°40'

r. Moon sq r. Neptune 0°08'
t. Moon sq t. Pluto 0°38' M
r. Saturn co r. Neptune 1°54' M
r. Moon sq r. Saturn 2°35'
t. Mars op t. Pluto 2°51'
t. Mars op r. Venus 2°52'

t. Mercury sq t. Pluto 0°09' p
t. Jupiter sq t. Pluto 0°48' p
t. Mercury sq t. Mars 1°28' p
t. Mercury op t. Jupiter 1°42' p
t. Mars sq t. Jupiter 2°25' p

More natal Moon-Saturn-Neptune, this time with Mars-Pluto in the mix, and a bit of natal Venus. This relocated chart doesn't look fun. Mostly, my natural intense sensitivity and predisposition towards darkness, but emotionally-intense events happen as well. It seems like a busy, arduous trip, and I'm really easily irritated.

The word that comes to mind is "hellish." I don't know what that's likely to be. I would maybe think travel itself, but this is the chart for the destination, not any of the places I'm passing through, so that's not likely.

Trying to transform this, though, I can try to view it as: a period of intense intimacy with people I consider safe, and who give me space to let that inner gothic child out, where she can feel accepted. (I would not consider Pluto "safe," but l am trying to squint hard enough at this chart to maybe make it so.) Mars-Venus is a little rowdy, which is how I like my get-togethers (there's a lot of games for me to be competitive at).

This is not an unbiased reading of the chart. It's an extremely biased, leading, self-programming reading, on purpose. I don't expect it to have much sway, but maybe it does.

Now, the PVP aspects, made by transiting Mercury and Jupiter...

Really intense and shocking travel, or ideas, or information. Total overload.
Some kind of change in fortune, probably for the better.
At the edge of where I think reasonable orbs are, intense communication, nervous sensitivity, irritability (mine and others'), hangover? Pleasant and/or philosophical communication; partying hard, getting hyper-competitive.

[Veronica]

I believe the Poconos at this time of year will be quite unsterotypical of the word Hellish. It is cold, dark and damp for most of the time. The wind too at time can be quiet bitter and rude. I don’t know what games you will playing, but if they are outdoors I would bring warm clothes, hats, gloves, and the like. I’ve never been, but the area is a very popular retreat/vacation spot for many people I know who love the great outdoors, hiking, bonfires, and the nostalgia of rustic living. It’s also prime hunting land and with the rut going on now the deer are very active and aggressive and so are the hunters and poachers. It should be very beautiful at night to see parts of the sky, and the brightness of the moon makes night hikes especially wonderful.

[Stef]

The northeast is in a drought warning and there's a large wildfire burning in northwest Jersey and across the New York southern border, so "hellish" is definitely how I would describe the environment right now. Stay safe!

[Mike V]

Yeah, we just found out there’s a burn ban out here, so that tracks. Thanks for the heads up.

So far, it’s been an arduous day (just a lot of travel and prep for so many people), but nothing resembling “hellish.”

[Mike V]

So now that I’m at the airport and this trip is nearly over, I can say the relocated Demi-SLR was an accurate chart, but the importance was much lower than I would’ve thought. It did NOT primarily describe the experience, which was celebratory and full of new and renewed friendships.

I think it mostly came out as a hangover, and getting in my head about some things that turned out to be fine; I am way more experienced at regulating myself in these scenarios now so it wasn’t a big deal. Certainly nothing resembling the intensity level suggested by the foreground aspects and all of this Pluto. Now, if I had stayed for another week under this chart, would it have gotten more and more unpleasant? That’s possible. But since that didn’t happen, I stand by my assessment.

As for the PVP aspects:
Mercury-Pluto is reasonable. It was a very busy weekend - constantly doing things, switching between groups of people, helping with cooking and cleaning, all of which was highly organized but really arduous and under constant time crunch. “Brain-stopping” does describe the headache I woke up with on Saturday.
Jupiter-Pluto is kind of interesting… I focused on contributing the things that wouldn’t put me in anyone else’s way, or which wouldn’t be likely to fail. I didn’t focus on standing out, though. I was content to just be included. My “fortune” didn’t change or anything. I’d have to really squint to see this aspect.
Mercury-Mars, I suppose. Same things as Mercury-Pluto.
Mercury-Jupiter… I did feel heard and like my opinion was appreciated.
Mars-Jupiter is quite believable actually, as it was a pretty high-energy, celebratory weekend. But then again, the base Demi-lunar is primarily Mars and Jupiter (though not in aspect).

I’m not wowed by these, but they seem appropriate - at least as appropriate as the rest of the relocated chart does. On the whole, though, the importance of the chart is lower than a typical lunar return would’ve been.

[Jim Eshelman]

So now that I’m at the airport and this trip is nearly over, I can say the relocated Demi-SLR was an accurate chart, but the importance was much lower than I would’ve thought. It did NOT primarily describe the experience, which was celebratory and full of new and renewed friendships.

I think it mostly came out as a hangover, and getting in my head about some things that turned out to be fine... Certainly nothing resembling the intensity level suggested by the foreground aspects and all of this Pluto.

This is consistent with where my head ended up by the end of my last birthday year. The last two years, we've done a LOT of SLR/Demi travelling to evade malefic setups in LA. In particular, I think I had a bunch of Mars-Neptune charts and some Saturn-Moon and Neptune-Moon and just friggin' didn't want to get sick so we'd drive to the far side of Arizona for a day or two.

I went into that (based on prior work) knowing that both charts would be valid, and assuming that they'd be about equally valid. After all, there are great classic examples like JFK's final lunar that told one story (political overthrow and change of regime) in Washington and another story (sudden stunning violence upon his person) in Dallas. Both charts were clearly valid, and certainly the relocated chart was valid. The argument for relocating for a benefic lunar was that at least you'd have that one also and not merely the bad one back home.

What I found, though, over the last couple of years was at least a little different. Pretty consistently, I could most easily interpret the time as being almost entirely shown by the "where it set up" chart but with a minor intrusion by the "once I got back home" (relocated) chart. For example, if LA had a transiting Mars-Neptune aspect to my Moon and I ran off to eastern Arizona to grab an angular Jupiter instead, I'd have an overall good fortnight and only get a little sick when I got home. (One time, in contrast, the Mars-Neptune was still a little foreground where I went and I had an allergic reaction to motel soap that got worse when I got home where it was closely foreground - but then resolved quickly.)

And then there's the famous one where we travelled to Tucson or somewhere like that to get a really great lunar, came back to LA for a day and then flew to Memphis, where the same lunar had natal Sun exactly angular. The trip (which took half the fortnight) was fantastic, I got recognized wile at Sun (!) Studios by someone I'd never met who started posting about it online, and I had a bit of negative health stuff when I got back to LA.

So I've been modifying my wording to say that both are valid and maybe you can count on the original location to the stronger of the two. (I actually think the "maybe" is too soft.)

Let's take your current Demi-SLR November 12. Sticking with Class 2 and stronger angularities, we get:. (I used Inglewood. Is that right?)

r Mars WP-a -0°35'
t Jupiter Asc -2°09'
-----------------------
t Venus Dsc +5°26'

Looks to me like a really happy, probably social time with a little hard living (overdoing the fun). pretty straightforward. Sounds like what you had. Switching this to Pocono Summit, PA for when you got there, we find those close angularities and worrisome aspects (notice also that t Moon-Mars midpoint in PVL is 7' from the angle):

r Venus Dsc -5°40'
r Saturn WP -0°50'
t Mars Asc -2°03'
r Neptune WP-a -0°12'
----------------------
t Pluto Dsc +1°38'
t Moon MC +2°16' [r Moon IC +3°49']

r Moon-Neptune 0°08'
t Moon-Pluto sq 0°38' M [t Pl sq r Mo 2°11']
r Saturn-Neptune 1°54' M
r Moon-Saturn 2°35'
t Mars-Pluto op 2°51'
t Mars op r Venus 2°52'

Yeah, ouch, that's pretty rough. It doesn't seem you got most of that from your report. That would have been pretty emotionally a downer and likely some uncomfortable confrontations with your friends. (I can think of variations, but that's the main impression. There isn't, say, an actual aspect between the angular natal Saturn and the Venus and Mars, so "spoiled fun" isn't part of the weather report, and the "psychological hardship" is primarily internal - your psyche - but still seeming to show uncomfortable confrontations with others and some kind of agony.

I think the original chart was simply stronger. (We have a New Orleans trip for immediately after New Year's Day when Marion's demi is clearly better for here, my SLR is clearly better in N'awlins, they're about a day apart, and yet timed so that we surely can leave LA after her 2:30 AM 1/4 demi and be at our destination before my 12:08 AM 1/5 SLR.)

[Jim Eshelman]

As for the PVP aspects:

To have all this in front of everybody, your PVP aspects back east were:

t Mercury-Pluto sq 0°09' p
t Jupiter-Pluto sq 0°48' p
---------------------------------
t Mercury-Mars sq 1°28' p
t Mercury-Jupiter op 1°42' p
--------------------------------
t Mars-Jupiter 2°25' p
 

Mercury-Pluto is reasonable. It was a very busy weekend - constantly doing things, switching between groups of people, helping with cooking and cleaning, all of which was highly organized but really arduous and under constant time crunch. “Brain-stopping” does describe the headache I woke up with on Saturday.
Jupiter-Pluto is kind of interesting… I focused on contributing the things that wouldn’t put me in anyone else’s way, or which wouldn’t be likely to fail. I didn’t focus on standing out, though. I was content to just be included. My “fortune” didn’t change or anything. I’d have to really squint to see this aspect.
Mercury-Mars, I suppose. Same things as Mercury-Pluto.
Mercury-Jupiter… I did feel heard and like my opinion was appreciated.
Mars-Jupiter is quite believable actually, as it was a pretty high-energy, celebratory weekend. But then again, the base Demi-lunar is primarily Mars and Jupiter (though not in aspect).

Interesting... and yet, everything you describe her is also consistent (at least "consistent enough") with the California demi on its own, isn't it?

I’m not wowed by these, but they seem appropriate - at least as appropriate as the rest of the relocated chart does. On the whole, though, the importance of the chart is lower than a typical lunar return would’ve been.

By which you mean the Pennsylvania one, yes?

[Mike V]

Let's take your current Demi-SLR November 12. Sticking with Class 2 and stronger angularities, we get:. (I used Inglewood. Is that right?)

r Mars WP-a -0°35'
t Jupiter Asc -2°09'
-----------------------
t Venus Dsc +5°26'

Looks to me like a really happy, probably social time with a little hard living (overdoing the fun). pretty straightforward.

Yep, Inglewood is right, and your description is accurate.

Yeah, ouch, that's pretty rough. It doesn't seem you got most of that from your report. That would have been pretty emotionally a downer and likely some uncomfortable confrontations with your friends. (I can think of variations, but that's the main impression. There isn't, say, an actual aspect between the angular natal Saturn and the Venus and Mars, so "spoiled fun" isn't part of the weather report, and the "psychological hardship" is primarily internal - your psyche - but still seeming to show uncomfortable confrontations with others and some kind of agony.

The only agony was my headache - and it wasn’t extraordinary; I have extremely sensitive sinuses and so anything that my body doesn’t like turns into a (usually very painful) sinus headache; what would’ve been only a moderate hangover took much longer to recover from than it would’ve otherwise.

Otherwise, there were no uncomfortable confrontations. I was very worried about that going into it, but I didn’t share that with any of my friends beforehand, and only after we were in the clear, I talked about this little experiment that I was watching.

Interesting... and yet, everything you describe her is also consistent (at least "consistent enough") with the California demi on its own, isn't it?

Yeah, what I described of the experience is consistent with the original California demi as well as the PVP aspects. It seems like around 50% of the time, maybe more, they are difficult to distinguish from other relevant factors… or at least, they don’t seem to overpower those other factors. I’m wondering if they have a different (weaker) fundamental strength than ecliptical or mundane aspects with the same orb.

I’m not wowed by these, but they seem appropriate - at least as appropriate as the rest of the relocated chart does. On the whole, though, the importance of the chart is lower than a typical lunar return would’ve been.

By which you mean the Pennsylvania one, yes?

Affirmative.

[Mike V]

Finally, we get a really good test of a PVP aspect in one of these charts: an aspect where both planets are on prime vertical, are not otherwise angular, and the corresponding natal/transiting versions are not angular.

t. Mars 98% (Z -0°46')
r. Venus 97% (N -0°54')
r. Pluto 88% (As -7°37')
t. Pluto 85% (IC +7°48')

Natal Jupiter, Uranus, Neptune, Saturn, Moon acutely background.

t. Mars op r. Venus 0°08'
Also: t. Pluto/r.Pluto = Angle 0°10' (I think that's how you write that... I'm doing this visually)

Other partile:
t. Moon sq r. Saturn 36' M
t. Venus sq r. Eris 43'

And for PVP aspects:
t. Mercury op t. Jupiter 0°26' p
t. Mercury op r. Eris 1°12' p
t. Jupiter co r. Eris 1°38' p

I'm probably not going to post this chart in my Eris thread because I'd rather avoid combining Eris and PVP aspects.

Mainly, this is a chart that is irritating and shows troubled social issues. That midpoint between the Plutos seems to suggest it's going to be a far more emotionally-impactful, even transformative, chart than I would otherwise expect.

The transiting Mercury-Jupiter opposition is totally unlike the rest of the chart, and I'm very interested to see if any kind of rewarded mental activity, philosophical things, beneficial travel or communication, etc occur in the midst of the rest of this.