My 2024-2025 SLR's

[Arena]

Alright, so I've started my new year trip around the Sun once again.
In just the last week before my bday it seems like I may have got a lucky break - or a lucky idea in my head that I decided to follow my instincts. It will become clear on Tuesday next week whether I get this very fancy exhibition place in the end of this month. It might make this calendar year a better success with art sales if I get this. We'll see and I'll keep you posted.

I decided to start the solar year by looking into upcoming lunar returns. Let's see what they depict for the next few months and if anything "outstanding" is being indicated.

In order to keep the criteria for "outstanding" very strict - it is when t. planets are within partile 1° orb of return angles or angles of the natal/relocated chart or that natal planets are within partile 1° orb of return angles. I will only make a record of possible "outstanding" returns.

23.40 birth time:

There are quite a few returns that would meet this criteria for this birth time. I'll see if the minor angles play a part or not.

Edit: added by Steve's criteria.
Aug 25th
T. Jup exact conjunct r. Sat which is within 2° from rel. ASC - this would possibly count as "outstanding".
T. Jup comes back into partile conj. with r. Sat in the Nov 15th return.


Nov 15th. T. Moon partile SLR ASC in mundo and t. Pluto partile the ASC ecliptically. The same return has t. Mer partile conj. rel. DSC.

Dec. 13th.
T. Sun partile sq. SLR ASC.
T. Jup partile conj. rel. ASC.
R. Sat partile conj. SLR MC.

Feb 5th. (parhaps minor)
T. Sun partile MC ecliptically.
T. Ur partile EP.

Apr. 1st.
T. Jup. partile rel. ASC.

May 26th. (perhaps minor).
T. Sun partile SLR nadir.

Jun. 22nd. (perhaps minor).
T. Moon partile 0,01° SLR zenith.
R. Mer partile SLR EP.

July 19th.
R. Mars partile sq. SLR ASC.
T. Mars partile sq. r. Sat (which is angular).
T. Ven partile rel. ASC and 1,19° from r. Sat.
T. Sat partile t. Nep (within 3° from SLR IC).

[Arena]

Using Steve's method of checking possible relocations for beneficial aspects, I see a couple of easy options.

For Jan 9th return it might be smart to move closer to the Jup DSC line - don't need to go far for that one, just a nice trip out of the city.

For May 26th return, when t. Jup is very close to r. Ven it might be beneficial to take a trip up north, close to birth town to get that Moon-Jup paran mood/vibe.

For the June 22nd return it looks like the Azor Islands would be a very nice place to be with the Moon-Ven conjunction.

[Arena]

In order to keep my comparison for an alternative birth time, I will make a note of the lunar returns for a bt of 23.27 as well.

For those interested, here is also a thread on the SSR's where it shows that the SSR for bt 23.27 is supposedly outstanding for 2024 where as for 23.40 it is not. IF it is an outstanding SSR, then we will see outstanding lunar returns as well.

I am adding in here that I must make a note of the exact conjunction of t. Jup to r. Sat on Aug 25th return. This might be of importance even though it is not partile the angles.

Sep 21st
SLR ASC partile r. Jup 0,06°

Oct 19th (minor)
T. Ven partile zenith

Nov 15th
T. Mer partile zenith
T. Jup partile IC ecliptically
R. Sat partile IC

Dec 13th
T. Jup partile MC ecl.

Jan 9th
T. Pl partile sq MC (I notice t. Nodes are also partile r. Pluto and natal Nodes partile EP)

Feb 5th
T. Moon partile EP
T. Mer partile MC ecl.
R. Moon-Mer partile SLR EP/nadir
R. Ur partile sq ASC

Mar 4th
T. Sun partile WP
T. Ven partile sq rel. MC

April 1st
T. Sun partile sq rel MC

April 28th
T. Mer partile rel. EP
R. Mars partile SLR EP

May 26th
T. Sat partile sq ASC
T. Sun 1,02° conj SLR IC
R. Jup partile SLR ASC

Jun 22nd (minor)
T. Ven partile zenith

Jul 19th
R. Jup & Pluto partile SLR EP & MC (T. Sat in the mix, but not partile)
Moon partile DSC ecl.

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

In order to keep the criteria for "outstanding" very strict - it is when t. planets are within partile 1° orb of return angles or angles of the natal/relocated chart or that natal planets are within partile 1° orb of return angles.

IMO, you are using too tight orbs for angularity, and don’t forget there must be either a 0 90 180 partile aspect with SLR planets or SLR planets 0 90 180 partile Natal Planets. Just run-out all your SLRs/Demis checking for any possible “outstanding incident” return charts, and then if noted put em in your reminder calendar. This way you will be able to see how your stage play of life is set. There always will be a cast of characters and a script written right before an “outstanding incident” return chart, if any arrives. What astrological program are you using? If SF I can help you set defaults to more easily/quickly identify any possible “outstanding incident” return charts during a solar year.

[Arena]

I'm using SF. What orb are you using?

I use this criteria for partile aspect of the planets to angles since that's what Jim has emphasized and that is the quote from his book. I was sure you were using that too. So are you using a partile aspect - but not partile to the angles? If both a partile aspect and partile the angles, that would surely make it "outstanding".

I will also make a particular note if there is a partile aspect with a natal planet.

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

I'm using SF. What orb are you using?

One degree for the aspect lines for my charts with aspects of 0 90 180 45 135, paying closer attention to the 0 90 180. I have become so spoiled by “outstanding incident” SLRs for these many years---its about the only ones I pay close attention too in my retired life. When they occur—they tell me to get off my butt and awaken my bored mind to WTF is going on in my immediate environment—then maybe institute some kind of plan for possible manifestations. Sometimes I already know what’s going to manifest by just realizing the things that are happening around me.
Arena wrote:

I use this criteria for partile aspect of the planets to angles since that's what Jim has emphasized and that is the quote from his book. I was sure you were using that too. So are you using a partile aspect - but not partile to the angles? If both a partile aspect and partile the angles, that would surely make it "outstanding".

Let’s run a SF experiment to see if we are on the same page. Tell me where you are residing now and I will analyze your SSR. Then I will quickly compute your 13 SLRs for the same residence checking for any “outstanding incident” SLRs. OK?

I will also make a particular note if there is a partile aspect with a natal planet.

Most assuredly, I do this with a bi-wheel and my eyes, but I am sure they are better ways. I think a partile SLR (transit) to a Natal Planet is super important if happening on day/time of a SLR, much more so if it happens to be angular in the SLR. This is truly how we can distinguish the really important transits to natal for out life.

[Jim Eshelman]

I use this criteria for partile aspect of the planets to angles since that's what Jim has emphasized and that is the quote from his book.

That's what I rely for the general tone of the month, not for particular events. You can have an emphatic tone but it's hard to see nature of particular events without the aspects.

While the really phenomenal effects occur when partile angularity and partile aspects occur together, this is extremely rare. Filtering for partile aspects is a better strategy - distinct action rather than just the abiding state of the time.

When I travel to pick a better lunar return than I'd have at home, I focus not just on partile angularity but getting the desired planet down to the minute - certainly within 5' to 10' and preferably to the minute of arc - because lunars pick up both locations (you keep wherever it sets up and also get wherever you go in the month - solars don't do that). Since I'll be returning home to the generally malicious chart that drove me to travel in the first place, I want the setup location chart to have such overwhelmingly benefic quality that nothing back home can match or overpower it.

Out of curiosity, I just ran all my lunars beginning October 1 with the criteria not just of partile aspects but also partile angularity (something I don't usually do). Looking for t/t and t/n aspects (the partile natal-to-natal aspects don't stand out so sensationally since they're always with me), I get one: On April 24, t Mars-Pluto op 0°23' M (both planets partile to angles). - We're going to try to go to Memphis for that one!

OTOH, if I use Class 2 orbs for angularity (major angles to 7°, minor angles to 2°), the following lunars occur with t/t or t/n partile aspects foreground:

Dec 8: t Sun-Jupiter op 0°35'
Sun 1°53' from Dsc, Jupiter 2°28' from Asc

Jan 5: t Mercury-Neptune sq 0°30'
Mercury 5°57' from IC, Neptune 6°27' from Dsc

Feb 28: t Venus sq r Mars 0°57' M
Venus 1°35' from MC, Mars 2°33' from Dsc

Mar 28: t Venus-Neptune co 0°30'
Venus 0°46' from N, Neptune 1°16' from N

Apr 24: t Mars-Pluto op 0°23' M
Mars 0°58' from Asc, Pluto 0°35' from Dsc

Jun 18: t Venus op r Mercury 0°03'
t Venus sq r Jupiter 0°09' M
t Venus sq r Uranus 0°30' M
Venus 1°35' from Asc, Mercury 3°25' from Dsc, Jupiter 1°26' from IC, Uranus 91°05' from IC
[There's a LOT more going on in this chart, too.]

[Arena]

Yes, I believe the tone of the month will also have an effect on any big events in that particular time period although it might not be event specific. For. ex. IF I have an exhibition in a year with a partile angular Sun and a month of partile Sun, Ven or Jup hit to the return angles - I believe that would have a major impact on that specific event as well as being the tone of the year/month.

Jim, I would not take your Jan 5th return into this since the orb to angles is really too wide to be outstanding at all. The other returns fulfill a criteria of partile aspect and one of the planets within 2° which would seem of particular importance although maybe not necessarily "outstanding" in they are not within 1° orb. With the criteria I have for partile orb to angles as well these are the only two that fulfill that criteria to be deemed as really potentially "outstanding":

Mar 28: t Venus-Neptune co 0°30'
Venus 0°46' from N, Neptune 1°16' from N

Apr 24: t Mars-Pluto op 0°23' M
Mars 0°58' from Asc, Pluto 0°35' from Dsc

But I believe we also need to see the "outstanding" pattern in the solar return to become a major event in the individual's life. Something that will be looked at years later as a really important event. Your April 24th is really worrying.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, I would not take your Jan 5th return into this since the orb to angles is really too wide to be outstanding at all.

The definition of "outstanding" Steve has successfully worked with over the years has almost nothing to do with how close to the angles, and only with how close the foreground aspect is.

Of course, I agree that partile aspects that are also very close to the angles have a chance to have an even bigger bang.

The other returns fulfill a criteria of partile aspect and one of the planets within 2° which would seem of particular importance although maybe not necessarily "outstanding" in they are not within 1° orb.

I think narrowing this to partile angularity is a mistake. I could give a similar list (much longer) of returns that will have partile angularity (regardless of aspects) and, while that will describe the over-awning tone of how the month feels, few of those will produce stand-out concrete events (which are a function of aspects).
 

Your April 24th is really worrying.

I have several Mars-Mars and Mars-Pluto lunars and demis in the next year. I won't stay in LA for any of them.

[Jim Eshelman]

As a contrast: This list gives all my SLRs for the year beginning October with 1° orbs on angles (and aspects being whatever they are). I expect much less eventful things from this group as a whole (though individual ones will, of course, have their say).

Feb 1: t Mars WPa 0°04', r Mars EP 0°33'
t Mars op r Mars 1°39' M
[This one will obviously be important from the combination of factors, but the individual Marses angular wouldn't stress me: It's specifically Mars opposite Mars which also happens to be exactly angular.]

Mar 28: t Venus N 0°46', r Sun MC 0°47'
(No aspects.)

Mar 24: t Pluto Dsc 0°35', t Mars Asc 0°58'
t Mars-Pluto op 0°23' M
[Yeah, we know about this one ]

Jun 18: r Saturn Dsc 0°23'
(No aspects.)
[A totally different look than the stunningly positive, bright, happy SLR viewed the other ways just because the only planet that happens to be within 1° of the angle runs contrary to all the others. Here is a link to my more detailed breakdown:] viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8808#p61193

Jul 15: r Pluto Asc 0°04', t Mercury EPa 0°30'
(No aspects.)

[Arena]

I think perhaps it's about time to remind ourselves of this very informative thread where Fagan points out that concurrent angularity acts similar to an aspect.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=212&p=1463&hilit=C ... rity#p1463

If any of my above-mentioned returns turn out to bring about anything out of the ordinary for me I will report in here and possibly learn more about wether concurrent angularity of transiting planets partile angles are of interest.

It may be that when we have a partile aspect from a transiting planet to a personal planet it simply turns out to be a bit different in interaction with the individual while concurrent transiting partile angularity has more to do with events from the outside world.... and in case of a single t planet partile the angles is simply the pure tone of that planet for that month/year.

[Arena]

Alright, the first potential lunar return to be outstanding just started yesterday. Let's see if that partile Jupiter aspect will give some kind of "outstanding" vibes this month.

I believe the July return turned out to not be very outstanding - although I did have a very elegant exhibition in a prestigious location and was complimented a lot on my art. But I did not get the media attention that I was hoping for and I had fewer guests attending than last year and the year before in another location. Not one artwork sold at this latest exhibition. Three people are thinking of purchase, which might actually be realised IF Jupiter will deliver anything this month. However, it is not near my rel. ASC IF the birth time is slightly earlier and also, it might not deliver much since it is conj r. Saturn and it is in sq to t. Saturn. So it would only have this outstanding potential if the birth time is correct.

Perhaps this past month can still be valued as "being in the spotlight" with that t. Sun close to the angle - but it is still my belief that it was not partile, therefore the location where the lunar return took place is not in play, but rather the homebase return with the Sun out of partile reach. (Adding to the mix, there was also the t. Saturn effect that may have been restrictive on the spotlight and sales).

[Jim Eshelman]

Alright, the first potential lunar return to be outstanding just started yesterday. Let's see if that partile Jupiter aspect will give some kind of "outstanding" vibes this month.

Is this for an alternative birth time? (Or did I make a mistake?) For your August 25 SLR I get only very wide angularities (and Jupiter isn't one of them):

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA     Decl   Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang G
                               Transiting Planets                                
Ve 29Le50'24"  1N13 + 1°14' 175°49'  3N 8 102°44' + 9°33'   2° 7' 350°13'  76% A 
Ne  4Pi 8' 1"  1S19 - 1'26" 359°48'  1S31 279°48' - 6°24' 181° 6' 173°31'  89% D 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 Radical Planets                                 
Ur 20Vi35'58"  0N38 + 2' 7" 194°41'  5S36  89°29' - 6°28' 180° 4'   6°28'  91% A 

[SteveS]

Arena, unless I am mistaken, there are no “outstanding incidents” Jupiter aspects in your 11:27 Reykjavik Aug 25 SLR.

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

I believe the July return turned out to not be very outstanding –

Arena, I am not showing an “outstanding incident” Jupiter July 1 or July 29 SLRs for your 11:27 Reykjavik returns. I am not sure you and I are on the same page with communications about “outstanding incident” return charts?

Let me offer an example for your next “outstanding incident” Jupiter SLR for 11:27 Reykjavik. Never forget you can have an “outstanding incident” return chart in mundo or eclipto. On Nov 15 you have an “outstanding incident” Nov 15 mundo for your 11:27 Reykjavik SLR. Mundo Moon-Venus are partile conjunct and Moon is partile 90 Jupiter, with Moon-Venus-Jupiter all tight angular. Below is a link:

https://ibb.co/kcV7Ph0

If you don’t clearly recognize some type of “out of the ordinary” incident in your life with this Nov 15 mundo SLR, then I would suspect your 11:27 birth time may be in error. You must interpret this Nov 15 SLR in its entirety with other aspects in this SLR. But understand: Moon-Venus-Jupiter is the MAIN theme for this Nov 15 SLR—relative to what is going on in your immediate environment in Reykjavik. Mundo return charts can get absolutely wild at the high latitude in Reykjavik!!! I have no experience doing high latitude return charts but I would not expect then not to work like any other normal latitude mundo return chart.

[Jim Eshelman]

For the 11:40 time, the July 1 return had natal Jupiter close to ab angle (1°58'). There are no partile foreground aspects. With close natal Jupiter and moderate transiting Sun (edged by two barely-foreground Venuses) it should have been a pleasant four weeks overall, tending toward good things and feeling good, but with no particular expectation of dramatic events.

For the 11:40 time, the July 29 SLR was the opposite, with natal Saturn being the most angular planet; except, transiting Jupiter's conjunction with natal Saturn is a major factor for several weeks (July-August) which should favor the improvement of Saturn-related matter. No other close angularities and no partile foreground aspects. I wouldn't have expected a terrible month, but certainly one with more demands, shortages, and skeletons rattling in your closet. Two (more widely) foreground Suns suggest you staying in the driver's seat of your life, while Jupiter to your Saturn feels like resolving or concluding old stuff (putting those psychological - if not physical - closets in order).

I don't see either of thee as an out-of-the-ordinary month, though of course each chart has definite things worth mentioning.

[Arena]

Thank you for chipping in to share your views. However, it seems like you missed the main point I was making concerning a relocated lunar return. Ok, let me try to be more clear. So this particular SLR that I mentioned took place in my birth town, Hvk, where I was visiting and exhibiting. BUT I was making the point that it seems to NOT be that location that is in play when I got back home to Rvk. So there's no point at all to travel to relocate our returns, because the relocated chart is only in play at that relocated place and then you'll have to live with the back home chart for the rest of the time of that particular month/year. I'm guessing it's just like relocation charts, they are ONLY active when you are actually physically there at the relocation. So as soon as I came back home to Rvk, the partile angular Sun was not there anymore.

Another point that Steve always makes is to notice any t. planets in the return that makes a partile hard aspect to the natal planets. So, in the Jul 29th return I can see that t. Nep is partile sq r. Jup, but it isn't an angular aspect in the return. However, t. Saturn is also partile sq r. Saturn and that aspect is actually angular.

T. Sun is partile the angle at the place of the return, but not when I got back home. However, t. Sun is not making a partile aspect with any natal planet, so I'm guessing that it would not be of the same "outstanding" potential according to Steve's practice to be considered as important. So perhaps in this case, the Saturn aspect and angularity actually overrides the angular Sun.

For the 23.40 bt the Sun is partile angular at birth town, both in mundo and ecliptically and even in the ZA Azi view... then I see Saturn partile angular in the Azi view in SF. So two planets are partile the angles at the place of the return for the 23.40 bt.

However, when you cast the lunar return for back home in Rvk, the Sun is over 4° from the angle ecliptically and Saturn is over 3° from the angle. Both planets also fall out of the closest framework of angular, or outside the 3° mark from the angles in mundo PV and Azi.

So the conclusion is that this particular SLR had the potential to be "outstanding" at birth town where it took place, but it turned out not to be outstanding as I got home and the planets were not actually partile angular anymore. Did I explain this more clearly now? Do you get my point now?

A pretty sight in that lunar was that t. Venus right on the midpoint between r. Mer-Mars.

The partile Jupiter aspect to a (minor) angle EP comes into play with the 23.27 bt, but it isn't partile a natal planet until my current SLR from Aug 25th.

To be continued for 23.27 bt for comparison...

[Arena]

Ok, so let me continue explaining for the 23.27 bt.
The SLR took place in my birth town - and for this particular return t. Sun is partile the angle for both birth times. The SLR for 23.27 bt ALSO shows us the partile angular Sun in all views, ecliptic, PV and Azi at the place it took place ... but then is outside the 5° from the angle when I move myself to back home base to Rvk. And in this case, t. Saturn is NOT partile the angle, so it wouldn't have the potential to deliver outstanding results either. So it's not outstanding anymore. However, t. Jup comes into being partile the EP back home. But it isn't in partile aspect to a natal planet, and therefore may not be able to deliver any outstanding results like Steve has emphasized.

So in this particular lunar returns for both birth times would possibly have been "outstanding" where they took place. But since I left that place the next day - they turned out not to be outstanding back home.

My conclusion from this example is that it is actually the back home chart that is the active and relevant chart for this month for both birth times.

[Arena]

Alright, the first potential lunar return to be outstanding just started yesterday. Let's see if that partile Jupiter aspect will give some kind of "outstanding" vibes this month.

Is this for an alternative birth time? (Or did I make a mistake?) For your August 25 SLR I get only very wide angularities (and Jupiter isn't one of them):

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA     Decl   Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang G
                               Transiting Planets                                
Ve 29Le50'24"  1N13 + 1°14' 175°49'  3N 8 102°44' + 9°33'   2° 7' 350°13'  76% A 
Ne  4Pi 8' 1"  1S19 - 1'26" 359°48'  1S31 279°48' - 6°24' 181° 6' 173°31'  89% D 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 Radical Planets                                 
Ur 20Vi35'58"  0N38 + 2' 7" 194°41'  5S36  89°29' - 6°28' 180° 4'   6°28'  91% A 

So here we are on to another return - the current one that just took place at home.
No, this one is for the original 23.40 bt. The t. Jup is not close to the alternative 23.27 bt local angle.

You and Steve have both pointed out previously that in order to be "outstanding" the t. planets needs to be in partile hard aspect to a natal planet and then it needs to be VERY close, or within 2-3°, but not necessarily partile, either the return angles OR the natal chart local angles.

In this particular case, t. Jup is EXACT conj r. Saturn AND it is also within 2° from my local ASC for 23.40 bt.

Also, note that t. Saturn is partile sq this local ASC and although it isn't partile sq t. Jup, it is only a 1,08° sq aspect.

Please take a look at the biwheel for the visual. Notice the area with the yellow lines around it and then check out t. Saturn in that square. Also, please make a note of the return ASC/DSC partile the t. nodes. It will be of interest to Steve at least.

https://imgur.com/a/E0wf0b0

[Arena]

Scroll up to see the three previous posts.

To finish the comparison for Aug 25th - the alternative bt 23.27 does NOT turn out to be "outstanding" since that exact Jup-Sat conjunction is not close to the local angle anymore.

I did put yellow lines to draw notice to the transiting nodes being important for this bt as well since they turn out to be partile sq the SLR MC in this case. However, I do know that Jim would not judge that as "outstanding".

https://imgur.com/weTE6YZ

[Arena]

Scroll up to see 4 previous posts. I've been busy looking at charts this morning.

Steve, I understand your point about the Nov 15th return for 23.27 bt.

You said:

If you don’t clearly recognize some type of “out of the ordinary” incident in your life with this Nov 15 mundo SLR, then I would suspect your 11:27 birth time may be in error. You must interpret this Nov 15 SLR in its entirety with other aspects in this SLR. But understand: Moon-Venus-Jupiter is the MAIN theme for this Nov 15 SLR

However, you must be aware that the return for the 23.40 bt is also potentially 'outstanding' - so it might NOT be the best chart to judge by. I'm it would always be a more potent and reliable comparison for the two possible birth times when one of them potentially delivers an 'outstanding' return while the other does not at the same place. See the first post in this thread.

For 23.40 bt.
Nov 15th. T. Moon partile SLR ASC in mundo and t. Pluto partile the ASC ecliptically. The same return has t. Mer partile conj. rel. DSC.

Did you actually notice this outstanding potential for the 23.40 bt as well Steve?

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

You and Steve have both pointed out previously that in order to be "outstanding" the t. planets needs to be in partile hard aspect to a natal planet and then it needs to be VERY close, or within 2-3°, but not necessarily partile, either the return angles OR the natal chart local angles.

No Arena, I did not EXACTLY state this! I stated specifically from Jim’s book “Interpreting Solar Returns:”

It is when angularity and aspect partility coincide that outstanding incidents are most likely to come about.

Arena, you still don’t understand how I am using Jim’s above quoted words. It’s probably my fault with my poor choice or words trying to explain to you how to recognize “outstanding incident” return charts, but I don’t know any better words to use other than Jim’s own words from his masterfully written book on “Interpreting Solar Return.”

After a thorough study of Jim’s book one realizes the angular transiting planet in a return chart can be partile aspected (0, 90, 180) to either a solar planet or a Natal planet for the “outstanding incident.” to be calculated. I don’t really like the word “outstanding” but out of my respect for Jim’s written quoted words in his book I had no choice but to use his word “outstanding” for my posts. I worked a great deal with Jim’s colleague Matthew Quellas and both Matthew and liked the words “out of the ordinary” incident instead of Jim's words “outstanding incident.” When you can ask yourself did an incident happen to me that was “out of the ordinary” and if the answer is yes---then most likely you will have discovered a specific angular and partile aspect defining Jim’s above quoted words for return charts.

As for as what “orbs” I use to define and angular planets the best work on “orbs” I have ever seen written comes from Jim’s book under “Aspect Orbs.” It is a couple of pages long but the main point for my work: the closer a planet’s orb to and angle the more potency it has to express itself for clear recognizable effects or with the partile angular aspect in question for a return chart.

Recognizing for your solar year when an “outstanding incident” SLR/DSLR is calculated is my most valuable tool I have ever discovered because it hones the conscious onto the things/circumstances which are happening within your immediate environment, good or bad at the time for an "outstanding incident" return chart. It helps me make better decisions relative to my objectives/desires in life. It helps me decide when important stuff is about to happen. It helps me get with the program which has already been designed for my life to experience. But most of all—it helps me with better decision making relative to what is happening in my life.

Arena wrote:

Did you actually notice this outstanding potential for the 23.40 bt as well Steve?

Arena, I have not worked with the 23.40 chart. I am confused. Which chart would you prefer me to work with, the 23.27 or 23.40 chart? I have forgotten most of our conversations long ago pertaining to the issues involving: Which do you think is the correct timed birth for your Natal?

[Jim Eshelman]

So this particular SLR that I mentioned took place in my birth town, Hvk, where I was visiting and exhibiting. BUT I was making the point that it seems to NOT be that location that is in play when I got back home to Rvk. So there's no point at all to travel to relocate our returns, because the relocated chart is only in play at that relocated place and then you'll have to live with the back home chart for the rest of the time of that particular month/year.

I think you're misinterpreting what I've been saying about these (or I haven't communicated it well). Lunar returns are highly adaptable to location. The original location locks in and then the chart continues to adapt as you relocate. In simple terms, both the original and the "where you go next" operate side by side.

The main reason to relocate it, then, is when the chart for where you normally live is incredibly bad. If you have the option to set the chart up in a location that is incredibly good, you then have the two side by side - one really bad one and one really good one of similar strength. This significantly ameliorates the one for normal residence.

I'm guessing it's just like relocation charts, they are ONLY active when you are actually physically there at the relocation.

The difference here is that the "going back home" is the relocation. Where the lunar return originally occurs is the "birth chart" that locks in permanently (for the duration of its lifespan). After that, I agree with you - like any other relocation - it only operates when you're there.

[Arena]

Thanks for clearing that Jim. Both charts. However, I tend to think that the logical is that the location where you are actually staying is the one that is "dominant" lets say. I've understood you as having the opinion that where it sets up is the more dominant. It is not in my observation of my charts, therefore I lean towards the local chart always being the dominant one for returns - it is different in the natal chart, I can see both in play, the birth place and relocation.

Steve, I'm sorry about the confusion - but what you state above is exactly what I said either earlier in this thread or somewhere else relevant recently, that BOTH qualifications were needed according to what I remembered you saying and from your comment above, now I see that I DID indeed understand that correctly. However, I got confused since in response to that particular comment Jim corrected me and said you were NOT using it like that. Since I was stating and making a note of partile angular planets, as I always do and have done in the past, but not only the aspects, he corrected me and said that your main criteria was a partile aspect in the return or from t. planet to natal planet and that the aspect did not necessarily HAVE to be partile an angle, but just very closely angular. I did not understand where his justification from this correction came from, it got me confused. Perhaps he meant something else. This is the confusion. It is not originated from my understanding you incorrectly, but from this correction that Jim seemed to want to make. I don't know why, because I remembered clearly that the quote you've always used was from himself.

So please don't assume that I never understood what you were saying - I always did. I've always assumed there is no outstanding incident possible unless the planet is partile angular either the return angles or the natal angles. It's good to have that sorted for good and out of the way.

Also, this whole thread is based on comparing two possible birth times - which is why I always compare for them both for each and every return chart. It is clearly stated in the beginning of this thread that I am comparing two birth times to see which one is more likely to be correct. I'm approaching this as part of a possible rectification.

See in post three above:

In order to keep my comparison for an alternative birth time, I will make a note of the lunar returns for a bt of 23.27 as well.

[Jim Eshelman]

I see I'm getting utterly confused what's being talked about (I can't keep the entire thread in my head over time). It would help if each post indicated the return date, location, and (where relevant) birth time being discussed. (On my SLR thread I try to keep the return date in the Subject line each time to minimize this.)

Now that I'm at the office and have time to dig, I think I've reconstructed that the following is about your 29 July SLR which you say occurred at birth place. Got it. I see what you say about the precisely angular Sun. Transiting Saturn and natal Sun are both closely foreground, among other, wider factors. The only two foreground aspects are the partile Saturn square natal Saturn and the 2° Sun-Saturn square. It's primarily a Saturnian return.

T. Sun is partile the angle at the place of the return, but not when I got back home. However, t. Sun is not making a partile aspect with any natal planet, so I'm guessing that it would not be of the same "outstanding" potential according to Steve's practice to be considered as important. So perhaps in this case, the Saturn aspect and angularity actually overrides the angular Sun.

Or, more simply, by Steve's "outstanding" rules, the one thing that makes it outstanding is the one foreground partile aspect, transiting Saturn square natal Saturn 0°32'. This is reinforced by transiting Sun square transiting Saturn 2°10' M.

However, when you cast the lunar return for back home in Rvk, the Sun is over 4° from the angle ecliptically and Saturn is over 3° from the angle. Both planets also fall out of the closest framework of angular, or outside the 3° mark from the angles in mundo PV and Azi.

A couple of things to note. First, In Reyk, natal Saturn is 0°35' from Eastpoint (in RA) It's the dominant planet. This doesn't count as a "outstanding" return by Steve' definition because there are no partile foreground aspects. Nonetheless, it's a totally readable chart, e.g., transiting Sun 3°50' from Ascendant is quite respectable. The one foreground aspect is transiting Jupiter conjunct natal Saturn (2°13' M).

So there are differences between these two charts though they also have some similar themes. From the SLR's original location (your birthplace) I would expect a very heavy chart - for example, work to do, things harder rather than easier. (This thumbnail isn't going to do the whole chart justice. It's just a thumbnail. There are, for example, all the subtleties of Saturn's square to natal Saturn - often a turning point or life-reconsideration aspect - that would happen by transit regardless of the return.) It's a pretty heavy chart with a range of Sun-Saturn themes besides "generic Saturn." (I don't know if there were, e.g., paternal or other family themes dominating the trip.) The best shining advantage is that transiting Sun is motivating, inclines to place you more at the center of things and affirmatively making choices and acting on them. (Something like all that.)

On returning home, the priorities move around. It's still, by angularity, Saturn and Sun themed. Natal Saturn is strongest - to the degree - and Sun is still plenty strong (especially since you already have it in the original return.) The big difference is that Jupiter's conjunction with your Saturn (close in mundo) is the dominant aspect rather than Saturn square your Saturn (transiting Saturn is barely foreground). Jupiter's transits to Saturn tend to alleviate burdens and "old stuff" we're carrying around (or, in a more affirmative way, to reward hard work).

I haven't gone back to see if you described what actually happened. I'm using this more as an example of how I would break things down, which is especially: Get the basic tone from the angularities and read the real substance from the aspects.

I'll work my way through the rest of your posts from this morning as time allows here at work.

So the conclusion is that this particular SLR had the potential to be "outstanding" at birth town where it took place, but it turned out not to be outstanding as I got home and the planets were not actually partile angular anymore. Did I explain this more clearly now? Do you get my point now?

What actually happened in the month?

A pretty sight in that lunar was that t. Venus right on the midpoint between r. Mer-Mars.

The partile Jupiter aspect to a (minor) angle EP comes into play with the 23.27 bt, but it isn't partile a natal planet until my current SLR from Aug 25th.

To be continued for 23.27 bt for comparison...
[/quote]

[Jim Eshelman]

You and Steve have both pointed out previously that in order to be "outstanding" the t. planets needs to be in partile hard aspect to a natal planet and then it needs to be VERY close, or within 2-3°, but not necessarily partile, either the return angles OR the natal chart local angles.

I don't think either of us has ever said that. For the "outstanding" designation (which Steve has distinguished and used much more than I have) the focus has always been on partile foreground aspects.

Partile angularity certainly is important and especially sets the context - the tone - of the period. But actions - things happening - are usually signaled by aspects (that also are foreground).

In this particular case, t. Jup is EXACT conj r. Saturn AND it is also within 2° from my local ASC for 23.40 bt.

Ah, I see. You aren't saying it's foreground in the SLR but, rather, in your (relocated) natal chart.

Understood. I wouldn't pay any attention to this, though. I'd certainly value the partile contact of an SLR planet to a natal (birthplace or local) angle simply as a transit but would never interpret it as "angular" so far as the lunar return goes.

The Jupiter transit to Saturn is going to be felt regardless - just as a simple transit - because it is in 0°00' orb ecliptically.

Also, note that t. Saturn is partile sq this local ASC and although it isn't partile sq t. Jup, it is only a 1,08° sq aspect.

I'd most definitely pay attention to that - as a transit. TMSA doesn't currently capture these, but it should (in the "other partile aspects" section). Transiting Saturn 21°59' Aquarius, though not angular in the SLR, did transit local Asc.

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

So please don't assume that I never understood what you were saying - I always did. I've always assumed there is no outstanding incident possible unless the planet is partile angular either the return angles or the natal angles. It's good to have that sorted for good and out of the way.

Yes, good we have this sorted out. For more clarity on where I am coming from:
1: The SSR Planet does not have to be partile conjunct or 90 a return angle. It only has to be angular and many astrologers different on what is the orb for an angular Planet. I normally want to see angular planets in a return chart 5-7 degree orb, but the closer to the angle in mundo the much more potent. This is why we must look at a mundoscope to KNOW for sure how close a return planet is to a return angle.
2: The Natal angles have nothing to do with calculations for an “outstanding incident” return chart.
Arena wrote:
In order to keep my comparison for an alternative birth time, I will make a note of the lunar returns for a bt of 23.27 as well.
Got it! OK, when we use the two bt for your Reykjavik Nov 15 SLR, I see the main difference as this:
1: The 11.40 bt does not have your Nov 15 SLR with Jupiter angular, the major benefic Jupiter is out of the picture in any “outstanding incident” manner.
2: The 11.40 bt has two angular “outstanding incident” mundo angular aspects:
Moon-Venus partile conjunct and Mercury Mars partile conjunct. There are other aspects to consider but the Moon-Venus and Mercury-Mars are the main angular themes/partile aspects in an “outstanding incident” manner to consider. If you can’t clearly recognize there two angular themes manifesting in “an out of ordinary” manner in your life---I would suspect the 11.40 bt. Let us know.

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks for clearing that Jim. Both charts. However, I tend to think that the logical is that the location where you are actually staying is the one that is "dominant" lets say.

My view, from watching dozens of these as my wife and I travel, is that it is too close to "equal" to be able to clearly see a difference. (A difference strong enough that I could generalize.) I think it's more complicated than that - both charts being mostly equal - with other things in the life or circumstances tipping it one way or the other, or perhaps overall closeness of aspects and angularities in the given occasion.

OTOH the only ones where I have made notes that one was a solid standout over the other were cases where the original location of the return was the stand-out. It's probably too close a call to take a hard stand on it, but personally it seems the original location is the prevailing one.

I've understood you as having the opinion that where it sets up is the more dominant. It is not in my observation of my charts, therefore I lean towards the local chart always being the dominant one for returns - it is different in the natal chart, I can see both in play, the birth place and relocation.

Understood.

BTW - just to be clear (since I didn't mention it above) - what I said about lunar returns above is not what I'd say about solar returns. SSRs imprint for their original location - even if you're only there a minute or two, even if you're passing through. Perhaps its relocation (e.g., going back home) has a modest effect, but it's so minor that I think the better option is to ignore it completely. (The "back home" SSR's angles aren't even responsive to transits, though the original location SSR's angles remain highly responsive to transits to angles throughout the year.)

Steve, I'm sorry about the confusion - but what you state above is exactly what I said either earlier in this thread or somewhere else relevant recently, that BOTH qualifications were needed according to what I remembered you saying and from your comment above, now I see that I DID indeed understand that correctly. However, I got confused since in response to that particular comment Jim corrected me and said you were NOT using it like that.

What I have seen Steve do in practice (please correct me, Steve, if I've misread) is: Consider all planets that are foreground (he seems to use what I call Class 2 orbs, or about 7° from angles). From these planets, look for a partile aspect. That's the marker.

[Arena]

First of all, I do state which return and which time and place I'm referring to.... but it's a good point to perhaps put it in the title for each post. Thanks for the tip. Second, I personally would not go out to a 7°angularity to consider an outstanding incident - which is why I only focus on the planets and aspects that come within 3° from angles. More potent. More likely to deliver something outstanding imo. But I need to go years to practice with the orb.

Jim asked:

(I don't know if there were, e.g., paternal or other family themes dominating the trip.)

Well, I was staying with my father and he was generally very supportive and accommodating. I left my son with my father to be trained to work a little bit for a couple of days. He bought expensive artwork from me as he has since I started painting. It has amazed me how supportive he has been of my artistic journey. He absolutely loves my artwork.

You asked what happened.
Well, as stated before, I was lucky enough to get to exhibit in a very prestigious location on Aug 24th. It was a very elegant looking exhibition and I got a lot of praise for my artwork.
However, I did not get much media coverage (didn't get the spotlight as would have been necessary to "shine" or be published). I did not get as many guests as I had last year and the year before at this same time of year. And I did not sell one single piece of artwork in that specific exhibition.

Steve, as you may have noticed this particular return on Nov 15th has more to consider close to the angles. You also see how distorted the mundoscope is - I don't trust that. I usually always check out the Azi view as well. You can see that for the 23.40 bt. the ecliptic and Azi view both have t Pluto as the closest planet to angle, followed by t. Jupiter. So are these in partile aspect to anything in the natal chart? Well, t. Pluto is partile trine r. Pluto (no hard aspect) and YES, that angular t. Jup is indeed partile conjunct r. Saturn. These will both be felt for both possible birth times since - but the t. Jup is angular in both cases, 23.40 AND 23.27 and since it is partile conjunct r. Saturn it also means that r. Saturn is brought to the SLR's angle in both cases. I will indeed follow and report if anything out of the ordinary happens... but I will not judge by only one chart.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

What I have seen Steve do in practice (please correct me, Steve, if I've misread) is: Consider all planets that are foreground (he seems to use what I call Class 2 orbs, or about 7° from angles). From these planets, look for a partile aspect. That's the marker.

Exactly Jim!!! But in order to determine if they are indeed "foreground" we must always look at mundoscope to see true astronomical orbs to the angles.

[Arena]

Usually we may use the PV mundocope - but in polar regions we may have to look at Azi mundoscope instead of PV. We don't entirely know yet. Not enough data.

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

Usually we may use the PV mundocope - but in polar regions we may have to look at Azi mundoscope instead of PV. We don't entirely know yet. Not enough data.

All I know Arena is for the many years of work I have done with "outstanding incident" return charts is I use the primary angles (MC/IC; AS/DS) as I was taught from Jim's book. You got to do with what you think is right for you living in the polar regions. I may look at the other auxillary angles depending on the return chart itself.

[Jim Eshelman]

You asked what happened. Well, as stated before, I was lucky enough to get to exhibit in a very prestigious location on Aug 24th. It was a very elegant looking exhibition and I got a lot of praise for my artwork. However, I did not get much media coverage (didn't get the spotlight as would have been necessary to "shine" or be published). I did not get as many guests as I had last year and the year before at this same time of year. And I did not sell one single piece of artwork in that specific exhibition.

It occurred to me that - just to make this more complicated of two locations vs. two birth times etc. - you had already had your Demi-SLR as of August 12 - plus your recent SSR to add to the mix. The demi-lunar itself is heavily mixed pro and con: While transiting Jupiter was the most precisely angular planet (0°07' from WP), the Mars-Jupiter-Saturn triplet was foreground - Mars-Jupiter 0°14' the only partile - with Mars, Saturn, and Jupiter all square your Saturn. It's quite a mix all by itself, showing strong elements of esteem and a lot of mixed characteristics on the outcome:

r Saturn WP-a -2°08'
r Sun Z -0°55'
t Jupiter WP-a -0°07'
--------------------------
t Mars WP-a +1°00'
t Venus MC +6°46'
t Saturn IC +8°53'

t Jupiter co r Saturn 0°08' M
t Mars-Jupiter sq 0°14' M
t Saturn sq r Saturn 0°16'
t Mars co r Saturn 0°22' M
t Jupiter-Saturn sq 1°35'
t Mars-Saturn sq 2°35'

The two Saturns are quite widely angular. I've learned that I can drop these (and their aspects) out of the picture to get a more concentrated view of the time (provided I add them back in for a full, more detailed view). If we tighten it up this way, the chart simplifies a Mars-Jupiter event supported by some natal Sun and transiting Venus.

r Sun Z -0°55'
t Jupiter WP-a -0°07'
--------------------------
t Mars WP-a +1°00'
t Venus MC +6°46'

t Mars-Jupiter sq 0°14' M

[Arena]

Yes Jim, that surely complicates things to a new level. ... which might be the reason I hardly ever look at demi charrs. And sometimes I simplify things down to simple transits and directions instead of looking at the lunar returns. This is sometimes much easier when it comes to simply rectifying the angles, if it's a question of a few minutes.

BTW, I didn't notice any kind of Mars Jup event or vibe.

Yes the 2024 SSR (if we focus on that one) locks that Sat-Sat square into the whole year ahead. But it differs a lot from 23.40 bt which would put t.Jup on local AS , whereas the 23.27 bt Ssr would put t. Mars on local Asc. Maybe I'm witnessing that attacking Mars already by the hostility towards me today in another thread in this forum. I must note that I've not experienced that from others though.

[Arena]

Arena wrote:

Usually we may use the PV mundocope - but in polar regions we may have to look at Azi mundoscope instead of PV. We don't entirely know yet. Not enough data.

All I know Arena is for the many years of work I have done with "outstanding incident" return charts is I use the primary angles (MC/IC; AS/DS) as I was taught from Jim's book. You got to do with what you think is right for you living in the polar regions. I may look at the other auxillary angles depending on the return chart itself.

Yes, I realize this is what you normally do. I do think you also read about the guy that specifically studied polar regions and said that astrologers should not rely on their normal methods in polar regions as the charts often fall apart. If I remember correctly, his idea was that there is another method for calculating the rising and setting angles up north and he called it polar ascendant. I think that is close to the EP we use. So the minor angle becomes a major angle up north.

I think Jim has not done any specific study on the polar region charts, with multiple examples and both natal and return charts. Is that correctly understood Jim? He has me as an example that is not reliable because the birth time may not be exactly right.

I wish I remembered the name of this guy who studied the polar ascendant (around the polar circle and above (I don't rememer the distances he used from the circle though). I can't remember his name and haven't been able to find much more written about it. Do you guys remember his name? Or do you know of another similar study?

[Jim Eshelman]

I think Jim has not done any specific study on the polar region charts, with multiple examples and both natal and return charts. Is that correctly understood Jim? He has me as an example that is not reliable because the birth time may not be exactly right.

For lunars, not many, correct. Quite a bit more far-northern and some polar ingresses, which work on similar principles. (These are great for many reasons, including the fact that the timing is not in question.)

I've held that theoretically I could see that - in very extreme cases - something in our brains could flip the celestial sphere around so that the prime vertical acts like the PV (this is essentially a 3-D version of the Horizontal house system, which is essentially Campanus inside-out). However, while this makes total sense to me in theory, the polar and near-polar ingresses have worked by the same rules we're used to in more moderate realms.

One of the best such events is the explosion of the largest nuclear bomb (a hydrogen bomb) ever exploded, nicknamed The Tsar Bomba. This was detonated October 30, 1961, 11:32 BAT, 73N48'26" 54E58'54". The ten largest nuclear explosions have all been of hydrogen bombs and, in the ingresses overall, the most often angular planet has been the largest ongoing hydrogen explosion around us: the Sun. However, it's hardly the whole story.

Nothing was exactly angular when the Tsar Bomba detonated, though the mundane aspects are stunning. If - for comparison - I take these in azimuth, there is nothing of extreme note except one Mercury-Saturn square. However, in prime vertical longitude we get the following for the largest, most terrible explosion ever to occur (listing only those that form partile contacts).

17°19' H1 - Mars
17°35' H1 - Saturn
18°00' H1 - Jupiter
18°10' H7 - Uranus
18°47' H7 - Sun

That's some explosion!

The mundoscopes for the ingresses held up admirably. One angularity in the Capsolar (Year chart) that was not horizon vs. PV related was Sun 0°01' from square MC (and Saturn on WP). The Cansolar, though, had Uranus 0°29' from Ascendant (and the Liblunar had the same thing at 1°35'), more reinforcing than anything). The Caplunar (Month chart) had Pluto 0°51' from MC (and, among its foreground aspects, a Mercury-Mars mundane conjunction 0°00' that is a striking symbol alongside the ecliptical Sun-Saturn square 0°04' and Mars-Neptune conjunction 0°07'. For pure terror, the Canlunar at 8:56:32 AM BAT that morning, had only Sun, Mars, and Neptune foreground - Neptune 0°34' from Ascendant, Sun 0°18' from Ascendant, and the two in 0°51' mundane square.

The framework we normally use stands up really well in this example. That doesn't mean that we can say it always would; but, despite thinking that, theoretically, the framework might flip in our brains at least in outlier situations, I don't see that happening in actual charts. (Take those four ingresses just mention, rerun in azimuth. Other than the one Pluto on MC [same in azimuth] you won't find any of that stuff or anything else of interest.)

[SteveS]

No Arena, I can’t ever recall reading any book about the problems or solution for certain charts in Polar Regions. All I know is what little work I have done with your return charts in these polar regions is absolutely wild, enough so it makes me at least somewhat suspect a conventional use of return charts in polar regions, but I just don’t have enough experience to formulate any kind of set opinion concerning aspects or angles in polar regions. All I would know to do is to take “out of the ordinary” events and calculate return charts for an AA bt to see if the same Sidereal Astrology principles worked in the polar regions. Only you are in a position to do this for yourself, but then without an AA bt…… I do remember when you and I were doing some work with major events in your life, I noticed an exact angular Solar Arc hit which calculated a 11.44 bt, but I can't remember the exact event circumstance or the day when it happened.

[Arena]

I wouldn't compare to igresses, they are different and in this case, maybe something else was in play as well.
I'd rather focus on natal charts to understand this idea with the polar ascendant. Many years ago, perhaps in the old forum, I found some information about this and posted in here.

[Arena]

This lunar return that recently finished turned out to be quite productive. We finally did renovations to our bathroom, so lots of physical work. AND I bought myself a vehicle! I was not planning to, but my man showed me this classic old car with little mileage and I just bought it. Went to the dealer to try it on Monday Sep 9th, made an offer on the 10th and then the offer was adjusted (I got the price reduced a lot) and agreed upon on Sep 12th and I signed and picked up the car on Friday the 13th! It's such a great car, great to drive, although classic old car it has been used so little that it looks like nobody ever sat in the backseats. All light leather inside. Oh, so lovely looking! I will soon e joining an old car owners club to get cheaper insurance when the car turns 25 in January.

IF the 23.27 bt. is correct then the above would have been happening under a Mars transit to the local ASC as well as sq the LR ASC. Physical work with renovations and buying a vehicle can kinda fit with taking this kind of Mars action. Interesting.

So, now I'm into my Sep 21st lunar return which has the potential to be outstanding, at least for the alternative birth time, 23.27.

T. Sun is partile sq. my Ven-Jup opposition AND for this alternative bt. the lunar return ASC is 0,06° partile r. Jup, so this Ven-Jup/Sun t-square becomes partile the return angle. This has the potential to be outstanding.
However, looking at the 23.40 bt return, even though this t-square is also there in the return, the angles are outside the 3° border for the most potent angularity.

IF the 23.27 bt. is close to correct, then we can also see the dir. Moon has now entered partile orb to the rel. IC - so it's more likely that a house move may occur soon. The progr. Moon has now entered partile orb opposing r. Uranus. So for this bt. this might be a surprisingly pleasant return with some kind of surprise or quick developments happening.

Added: I just realised that we both have the partile Moon-Uranus symbolism happening at this point in time... I have it in my progressions and he has it as a partile opposition now in his lunar return and partile sq the return MC/IC angle. Seems like important.

[Arena]

Nothing really remarkable happened during this Sep 21st lunar return, except that I was invited by a friend (on Oct 11th) to hang up a few pieces of my artwork up in her new company. I've now been there to have a look and accepted this. So it's in line with the Ven-Jup/Sun, displaying my art. But I haven't hung the artwork yet, it will be done in the next couple of days/weeks.

I'm already in a new lunar return and this weekend we made an offer on a property, but we lost to another bidder and we feel defeated and heavy after this. My man's parents were keen to join us in a new adventure to buy this land and make it more worth, build up our own company there. However, it turned out it won't be this particular property, so we must go on searching.

One other thing happened during the weekend. Because we were making this offer and involving his parents, we had to speak about practical things like how we work it out if we fall apart or one of us dies. We need to sort out a Will for all of us so it will be clear how to sort that out. During this talk my man suggested that we should get married (third time) but it was after a few beers so I told him very straight up that he can only speak about marriage when he is sober if he really wants me to listen and take him seriously.

23.27 bt would have
Oct 19th (minor)
T. Ven partile zenith

If the bt is slightly earlier, this return would have a concurrent Sat-Venus angularity

[Arena]

A new lunar return tomorrow is potentially outstanding.

For 23.40 birth time:

Nov 15th. T. Moon partile SLR ASC in mundo and t. Pluto partile the ASC ecliptically. The same return has t. Mer partile conj. rel. DSC.

For 23.27 birth time:

Nov 15th
T. Mer partile zenith
T. Jup partile IC ecliptically
R. Sat partile IC

IF my birth time is slightly earlier than BC states, then I suspect that in the coming weeks this lunar return may signify that we will finally be able to buy ourselves a property. Jup-Sat on IC. Mer might signify signing a contract.

My man has t. Jupiter going back and forth on his IC.

Added: Woops, just noticed that t. Venus is on my r. DSC tomorrow, so it's going to be there this lunar month. Seems like a joyful & loving mood for the month.

[SteveS]

[Arena]

Still haven't been able to find ourselves a property. We are on the outlook, but the two offers we made this month were turned down. We are ready to make more offers. However, it doesn't seem like anything great is happening. Well, we did finally finish most of the renovations in our own home and it looks much better.

IF the demi return has any merit, it should be doing wonders from Nov 29th with a double Venus symbolism for 23.40 bt (different for 23.27) ... - but there is nothing out of the ordinary yet.


I'm about to enter into a new lunar return in a few days, on Dec 13th.

For 23.40 bt.
Dec. 13th.
T. Sun partile sq. SLR ASC.
T. Jup partile conj. rel. ASC.
R. Sat partile conj. SLR MC.


For 23.27 bt.
Dec 13th
T. Jup partile MC ecl.

[Arena]

It's starting to look like the lunar returns do not have much merit as being predictive of anything other than perhaps one's own feelings. There are so many returns in here that have the potential to be significant, but they aren't. Nothing out of the ordinary has been going on other than in August when I got to exhibit in a prestigious place and then in Sept when I bought myself a very nice classy car (I have not owned a car for a few years now).

So the partile aspects in recent returns seem to be not doing much. I was wondering just now that maybe partile aspects in lunar returns are not really going to deliver anything "outstanding" unless the solar return indicates that it will be outstanding. So perhaps this is showing me that the solar return is not outstanding (doesn't have partile aspects to natal planets that are brought to the fore and no very close angularity within the return itself (within 3°)).

The 23.40 bt shows me that the solar return itself has no planet within 3° of the return major angles in PV mundo. However, it does show the Sun within 3° from the EP and square the SSR MC and there is a Moon-Pluto opposition close to the Vx angle. This SSR does have t. Nep partile sq my Jup and almost partile sq my Venus. It also has t. Sat partile sq my r. Saturn. T Moon is very close to my Snode and since it is opposite t. Pluto I'm guessing it's about termination or feeling empty in some human relationships - which is very true and a strong feeling.

The 23.27 bt option for the SSR is very similar since it has no planet within 3° of the return major angles in PV mundo, but it does have the Sun partile angular the EP and sq MC. It will also have that Moon-Pluto near the Vx axis and those forementioned planets partile natal planets.

I had a little bit of a breakdown on Dec 28th when I felt a very strong emptiness and a lack of deep and nurturing love so strongly to the point of crying. I believe this is the Nodes to Pluto symbolism - perhaps also t. Saturn. This has more to do with my family, my sons and a few friends - but not my man.

I just looked into my demi SLR which took place on Dec 27th and I see the Pluto symbolism with t. Nodes on r. Pluto and then t. Nep on Dsc and t. Sat on Vx - both closer in the 23.40 than the 23.27 bt. However the 23.40 return has t. Sun partile rel. Dsc, and the 23.27 bt has it very close as well, which seems to emphasize my partner relationship.

[Jim Eshelman]

It's starting to look like the lunar returns do not have much merit as being predictive of anything other than perhaps one's own feelings.

Though I wouldn'gt word it that

[Jim Eshelman]

It's starting to look like the lunar returns do not have much merit as being predictive of anything other than perhaps one's own feelings.

Though I wouldn'gt word it that

[Jim Eshelman]

It's starting to look like the lunar returns do not have much merit as being predictive of anything other than perhaps one's own feelings.

That's close to how I see things. Nothing in astrology ever shows an objective event or anything outside of your own psyche. In that sense, all predictive things, including lunar returns, only show your psychological state.

Except... our psychological state (our inner imperative to experience life a certain way at a specific time and place) draws conditions events that will drive us into that psychological (mental and emotional) state.

[Jim Eshelman]

It's starting to look like the lunar returns do not have much merit as being predictive of anything other than perhaps one's own feelings.

That's close to how I see things. Nothing in astrology ever shows an objective event or anything outside of your own psyche. In that sense, all predictive things, including lunar returns, only show your psychological state.

Except... our psychological state (our inner imperative to experience life a certain way at a specific time and place) draws (or draws us toward) conditions and events that will drive us into that psychological (mental and emotional) state.

[Arena]

Well, what I mean is that the lunar returns may be much more about our inner psychological state compared to transits, solar arcs and solar returns which may indicate outside circumstances that trigger events to happen. Because the Moon is about our feelings.

F.ex. a Mars transit to angle may indicate an argument or a small accident and a Mars angular in a solar return or solar arcs may indicate outside events such as accidents or surgeries rather than inner anger. Whereas our Mars or t. Mars in lunar returns may simply be about us feeling angry/frustrated. We also see that Ven-Jupiter in transits, progressions and solar arcs can bring about circumstances for a love relationship, weddings, births and the like. Saturn and Pluto can be about heavy things like deaths and endings or power, hard work and responsibility. Jupiter to the MC may indicate a new job or some kind of promotion/rise in status. So they are indeed indicative of events.

I'm just wondering if the lunars are more about our inner feelings and reactions to what's happening around us, rather than outside events. There are so many lunars in here that have the potential to be "outstanding" but they are not bringing about any unusual or outstanding events and that may be because the solar return is not indicating "outstanding" circumstances or events from the outside environment.

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm just wondering if the lunars are more about our inner feelings and reactions to what's happening around us, rather than outside events. There are so many lunars in here that have the potential to be "outstanding" but they are not bringing about any unusual or outstanding events and that may be because the solar return is not indicating "outstanding" circumstances or events from the outside environment.

I think not, considering that there are hard published statistics on lunar returns showing childbirths, weddings, and violent accidents.

I think the lunar component isn't so much feelings as responsiveness to conditions (thin difference, I know). For the most pasrt, I think lunar