Mercury-Pluto

[Arena]

February 14th 2016
It strikes me as very interesting that both my younger children have Mercury-Pluto as their closest aspect, then followed by their Suns tightly aspected to benefics (son to Venus by conj and daughter to Jupiter by sq).

I notice also that this is not an "inherited" aspect from us, their parents, although I have the Moon-Mercury partile aspect.

When I see Pluto so tightly aspected to a planet I always think in terms of something "beyond" normal/average, something of extra-ordinary capacity.
And that is what it seems like this aspect is from what I've read, intelligence beyond the normal. I've also read that some people with this aspect are able to see another dimension, and this is what I've noticed with my daughter, but only rarely. Twice in her very short life she has said things about something that really happened decades ago that nobody ever told her, and it seemed like it came to her in a graphic flash.

Since this is a partile aspect for both of them, I must state in here that neither of them have speech afflictions. They are rather on the other side of that, always spoke very clearly from the very start and no troubles in expression. No disturbances in learning to speak and they learn quickly, all the letters and numbers. They never had trouble saying r, s, l like many children.

The Mercury-Pluto aspect in my daughter is partile conjunct Mars as well and she can indeed be very aggressive in her expression at times. The next aspect of Mercury for my son is to the Sun (4).
They are too young to know how this aspect will manifest in their lives or if they will have the investigative spirit of it.

[Arena]

by jamescondor on Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:20 pm

Both my father and I have mercury-pluto class 1. His is sesqui-square, mine is sextile. We both are musicians and good with numbers. He is better with geometry than I. I am a better musician than he. He is more enthusiastic, I am more deep in life connections. I have a higher frustration tolerance than him but we both get frustrated easily when it comes to what we feel needs to be done better in respect to an invested interest. We both can become irritable easily. Neither of us I consider investigative although I can at times examine thoroughly so maybe we are. I am more interested in why people do things and I do tend to ask many questions if I feel it worth while.

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby jamescondor on Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:02 pm

More on this Arena
I do have heavy interest in unknown realms, such as deep sea, space, dimensions, dreams and time travel. Consciousness is very interesting to me. Perspectives too are very interesting to me. Perspectives from other being-animals, plants and from different physical positions or different alterations of consciousness. Which makes sense in comparison to say Aldous Huxleys Mercury-Pluto. Now my aspect is far from pure in essence, in that my mercury aspects nearly all my planets, except Sun, Venus and Uranus. But, this would probably only matter when not on, so to speak.
Sometimes I do heavily investigate, but maybe my Mercury-Pluto investigation or character, since blended through other aspects, forms to all the other aspects as well. So, again, at times it maybe pure, I really cannot say. I try to know, but still, how can I for certain know. Chances are, my Mercury is primarily Mercury Moon-Neptune-Jupiter- space Mars-Pluto Saturn.

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby Arena on Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:26 pm

I think that when reading natal charts we need to prioritise aspects in terms of orb and what kind of aspects.

F.ex. in your case, your Mercury is partile conjunct Neptune - that would be nr. 1 aspect to Mercury. Next comes the partile square to the Moon. Thirdly I would say is the conjunction to Jupiter within 3° (but maybe that should be counted with the Neptune conjunction, as it is a three planetary conjunction.
The fourth aspect in order of importance would be the sextile to Pluto. So maybe your Mercury-Pluto aspect is not the best example of a strong Mercury-Pluto expression.

Looking at the planetary combination interpretation of Ebertin, I would say we firstly would consider Mercury-Neptune/Moon and second Mercury-Neptune/Jupiter to gain insights into your most intense aspects to Mercury.

Mercury-Neptune/Moon; Pictures and ideas emerging from the subconscious mind, receptiveness, a sympathetic understanding of other souls. And impressionable mind, a misguided imagination. A deceived or a deceptive woman|person|.

Mercury-Neptune/Jupiter; A rich imagination and great powers of phantasy, stepped up powers of imagination. Poet, actor. The inclination to harbour great hopes.

I posted this because both my children seem to have this aspect as a strong expression, since the aspect is partile, but I must note that it is not angular at birth place though. I just had to note this in here since they do not express this aspect as speech difficulties/afflictions like some astrologers seem to think it means - but rather the opposite. Since we moved to a new country I've also wondered whether this aspect can be interpreted as "going beyond the norm" as in being bilingual or having to learn "beyond" what most others do.

When other planets are involved, we need to look at the influece of those - since that would not be considered a "pure" Mercury-Pluto aspect anymore.
My son has this tight Mercury-Pluto square and then his Mercury is also conjunct his Sun&Venus within 5°. This changes it a bit most probably, but his Sun's aspect to Venus is closer and therefore more important.
If I take a look at Ebertin's COSI on Mercury-Pluto/Sun (which is a bit different, but still a planetary combination that is similar) then he says;
A persuasive speaker, a keen observer, circumspection or prudence and vision. The desire to gain recognition.


In my daughter's case I would look at Mercury-Pluto/Mars where Ebertin says;
Indefatigability, the ability to master a great task, sharp criticism, the desire to attack others. A blackmailer.


Ebertin on Mercury-Pluto aspect;
Principle; The art of persuasion, suggestion

Probable manifestations:
+ Successes as a speaker or a writer (mostly in specialized fields), the attainment of public recognition.
- The tendency to overtax one's own strength disturbances of the nervous system through excessive zeal or eagerness.


You see that by Ebertin's interpretations, their aspects are very different from your Mercury aspects and by his interpretation the Mercury-Pluto aspect seems to be that of excellence in Mercury talents such as speaking and writing.

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby jamescondor on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:30 pm

Thanks Arena. Are these Ebertin aspect combos discussed or listed on the forum, or where did you get them? I don't recall reading them.
In my chart, my Mercury-Pluto is relatively less expressive in comparison, but it is class one, so is fairly strong. I believe it would have to have room to be effective. But yeah it's all relative. So yes I agree with you that I am not a good example of prominent Mercury-Pluto.
Lately what I have been contemplating is how everything fits together, chemically, physiologically., consciously and so on. I don't know how exactly how I can do this but I can make analogies. For instance, the human brain is used 100%, not 10%, but maybe only 10% is used at once. If 100% is used at once then we would have an aneurysm or something bad. Also as far as emotions, people can only experience one at a time. We cannot be both happy and sad at the exact same time. So astrology should work this way too. We cannot be expressing both Moon-Mercury and say Venus-Uranus at the same time. But the difference would be if they are in fact connected as in Moon-Mercury/Neptune. We cannot be expressing Sun and moon sign at the exact same time.
Now a question I ask is what about simultaneously like how our blood flows while we sleep, walk, talk, read, whatever we do, because the nervous system is automatic. I don't have to make myself breathe or make neurons fire or whatever. So how does astrology fit into this?

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby Arena on Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:39 pm

I got these directly from his book, COSI.

Well I do not agree with you that we would only be capable of one sort of aspect expression or one sort of feelings or whatever. Humans are imo a bit more complicated than this simple analogy you want to follow. F.ex. you can indeed feel happiness and sorrow or a sort of both up and dow at the same time, it's called mixed feelings - this can happen when you are going to travel for a long time, or move away from your hometown or country - you are excited and happy to leave and to see new things and meet new people, but at the same time you can feel a sort of sadness because you are leaving your loved ones behind. Same can happen when divorcing, separating from a love relationship. You may feel relief or be happy to leave it because you've come to the point that you realise that it is not working - at the same time as being tremendously sad that it did not work out as you had hoped.

I believe the same can be with astrological aspects, you are indeed able to express different aspects and both Sun and Moon at the same time - because what you are is a combination of the whole thing. Therefore I am always emphasising that we should not try too hard to isolate certain aspects or expressions, because your behaviour, your personality is a mixture of the whole chart. But of course it is important for us to understand what is what. The most important are the luminaries and the planets on your angles and then you must look at the tightest aspects. Other things will not express very strongly.

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby jamescondor on Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:04 pm

Arena, it doesn't matter if you agree with me or not. People can only experience one emotion at one time. You aren't understanding properly. Think about it next time you experience an emotion. How can you possible be happy and sad at the exact same time? Cannot happen. When we are say, frightened, then the frightening takes up the moment in time when you are frightened. Same with all emotions. When I am happy, I also cannot be sad, at the same time. I can be happy one moment then sad the next, but not at the same time.
There isn't even a word or expression for the reaction of a sun sign plus a moon sign acting simultaneously. For instance, say my Sun is Aries and Moon in Taurus. What does Aries sun+Taurus Moon equal? There aren't even words for it. How could you separate the two if they were added together? How could could I say I am happy when I am sad too at the same time? Can I say I am happy- sad? Can I be both dead and alive? A+B=A-incorrect. A+B=B-incorrect. And visa versa. A+B=C=correct. They become a different animal altogether. Chemical reactions are a process. Say I get a skin/muscle bruise. The bruise didn't cause itself right? It's a process. The only exception to at least come up with a 'how', is if we can find a parallel between universal elements and planetary energies, or space energies.

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby Jim Eshelman on Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:31 pm

jamescondor wrote:
There isn't even a word or expression for the reaction of a sun sign plus a moon sign acting simultaneously. For instance, say my Sun is Aries and Moon in Taurus. What does Aries sun+Taurus Moon equal? There aren't even words for it.

Of course there are. George Carlin was aggressively, acerbically entertaining, or (from the other side) used pleasure to deliver his often violent views. Glen Campbell is an entertaining stud. Sigmund Freud was a sex-minded authoritarian. We are routinely many ways at once or, because our minds have many processes occurring concurrently.

How could could I say I am happy when I am sad too at the same time?

It's common human experience to be happy about one thing concurrent with being sad about another. This is the sweet-and-sour sauce of human experience.

A+B=A-incorrect. A+B=B-incorrect. And visa versa.

That's a rather bizarre take on things IMHO. It doesn't match general human experience or neurological research. Multiple parts of the brain can fire off simultaneously that have different association threads linked to them, and they're all alive in us concurrently.

A+B=C=correct. They become a different animal altogether.

Ah, so that's where you're going. I can't outright disagree with it, other than to say that it's, at most, a different way of labelling the same thing. (For example, simultaneously firing off multiple parts of the brain can be viewed as giving a new experience distinct from any of them individually, though that doesn't change the fact that multiple individual, distinctive things are happening separately at the same time.)

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby Jupiter Sets At Dawn on Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:37 pm

Bittersweet. It's a feeling, and it's real. It's pleasure tinged with sadness. When you think of good times you had with an old friend who's since died, it's bittersweet.
That's one example. I'm sure you can find others on your own.

COSI is Combination of Stellar Influences. We talk about it here all the time. It will help you greatly in your studies. A lot of people have trouble going from two planet aspects to multi-planet aspects, which is why this book is so valuable.
Just don't depend on COSI interpretations that involve Pluto. It was written soon after Pluto's discovery and not enough research had been done at the time for accurate interpretations. (Horoscopes had to be calculated by hand in order to find people from the past who had Pluto-whatever aspects and note their similarities, and few people were working on that.)

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby jamescondor on Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:07 pm

Yeah well, you're arguments do not distinguish or oppose what I am saying, you're all missing the point. I am not saying you guys are wrong, but what's with you all saying I'm not right. Emotions are an expression, some are more automatic or primitive and others more of a combination of things we use words to explain. The words we use use thinking in the process. Emotions would exist even without the thinking. But the emotions existed before the thinking. We humans are not completely sure about emotions. But the fact that we can separate emotions proves that they occur in their own moment in time. Even if that time is lightening fast or slow.
Honestly, this site is more for venting ego and feeling a sense of self worth (whether genuine or not is difficult to say), importance, rather than actual real research. A dictatorship.
I want to be deleted from this forum. I want to be taken off. If you don't delete me fine. I am not coming back.

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby Jim Eshelman on Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:56 pm

jamescondor wrote:
Honestly, this site is more for venting ego and feeling a sense of self worth (whether genuine or not is difficult to say), importance, rather than actual real research. A dictatorship.

A bit of a projection there, eh? (Which doesn't contest its accuracy. Just pointing out how self-descriptive it was.)

The single biggest reason for this site is to make available an evolving canon of methods and interpretations of Sidereal astrology. One of the means of this evolution is ongoing discussion. A primary consequence of such discussion (sometimes reaching the level of debate) is that you sometimes get agreement, sometimes disagreement, and sometimes you are ignored. (It happens to all of us.)

You've been extremely uppity and cantankerous lately, which is why I found your observations above interesting. We can all feel Pluto's approach to your Sun, and I suspect (from what I've seen here) that you're acting through this transit in a way that will setup the world to shoot spitballs at the windows of your personal ivory tower.

You've become increasingly authoritarian in recent months, and have increasingly tried to position yourself as if you were on equal footing with those who have lived and breathed the topic since long before you were born. You've made cogent observations that have furthered the conversation, and some pretty short-sighted and stupid ones - which I utterly recognize because I spent a decade or more doing exactly the same thing.

I'm quite happy to have you continue to use the forum as an arena to battle out your righteous process of being evolved into your own next step, as long as you remain civil and more or less stay on the topic of astrology most of the time. We wouldn't be much use to you in that process, though, if we didn't respond truthfully.

Transiting Pluto's within a degree of conjunct your natal Sun. You can use that to stay and submit yourself to dismantling and reshaping fire that the universe has in store for you, or you can use that to flee, inviting the universe to disintegrate the "old you" in different ways in different venues. Neptune is about to enter partile orb of square your Uranus, which maps a different kind of psychological rearrangement (difficult to summarize in a few words, other than to say that you set off to follow something entirely misinterpreted and factually wrong which, nonetheless, is exactly the path you need to go in order to promote psychological reinvention). Jupiter and Uranus are toying with your Ascendant back and forth for a while.

Pluto transits, which are phoenix-like, come in two phases. The first is disintegration - you really have to die to your old self. The second is rebirth as something that has your history, but in other ways has no continuity with what went before.

And, right at the moment, progressed Moon is exactly opposite your Uranus - 25' past natal Uranus, 59' before progressed Uranus. That, especially, is the timing for waking up fully, or being taken totally by surprise by what you didn't see. That waking up could, indeed, be you deciding this site is {bs} and you need to leave; or the waking up could just be getting started.

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby Jim Eshelman on Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:06 pm

PS - Transiting Sun conjoins your progressed Sun today. Besides being a Sun-to-Sun transit, that also means you have a Kinetic Solar Return today. Yours has progressed Mars and Saturn rising, transiting Neptune on IC, and Suns square Ascendant exactly. And of course the progressed Moon-Uranus opposition. This might be useful information to you, so I thought I'd mention it.

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby jamescondor on Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:43 pm

Is not everything we do and say self descriptive as a species or individual! Rhetorical! Obviously a yes. The human self or earthly/universal, biological self, is much more related and useful, than a 'unique' individual. We're all human here. Nobody here is 'better' than another, so I suggest we get used to that and stop taking offense.
I am more upset about certain forum leader, who keeps thinking or acts like, they know everything about everything. And who conveniently has an answer or back up for everything, as if a messenger from a higher existence. Nobody here is Moses ! And who has been quoted as saying nothing in astrology has changed in 5+ years, which reflects poorly either on the forum or the subject in general. The whole idea of the forum is to learn and grow. This isn't happening?or is at such a small level to render it almost useless. So astrology reflects more like a religion than a science. Science changes all the time. Religion doesn't.

I do not doubt astrological existence, at least that it exists in the minds of some individuals (perceived, conscious).
I do find all it's labels or categories paradoxical (contradictory?). Like uh, we're all people so...its sort of discrimination or is in a sense, right or wrong regardless. So my, our, astrological profile will be used for or against us. The us vs them mentality will only create divide. I am seeing too much divide. Like an egotistical power trip b.s.
Anyways, this site has a purpose. What ever that may be.
Yes, I wrote all this, so yes its my view,, pretty obvious! What's the point. Everything we say is either our view as a species or an individual.

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby FlorencedeZ. on Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:37 pm

jamescondor wrote:
Is not everything we do and say self descriptive as a species or individual! Rhetorical! Obviously a yes. The human self or earthly/universal, biological self, is much more related and useful, than a 'unique' individual. We're all human here. Nobody here is 'better' than another, so I suggest we get used to that and stop taking offense.
I am more upset about certain forum leader, who keeps thinking or acts like, they know everything about everything. And who conveniently has an answer or back up for everything, as if a messenger from a higher existence. Nobody here is Moses ! And who has been quoted as saying nothing in astrology has changed in 5+ years, which reflects poorly either on the forum or the subject in general. The whole idea of the forum is to learn and grow. This isn't happening?or is at such a small level to render it almost useless.

James, I find your remarks inappropiate and rather offensive.
Why do you keep harping on this? Why don't you just leave the forum?
Without 'that certain forum leader' there would be no forum and his knowledge based on a lifelong dedication to Sidereal astrology makes him a true leader. I have only very positive experiences with my communication with him and I truly cannot relate to anything you write.

Re: Mercury-Pluto
Postby jamescondor on Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:24 pm

Florencede- why reply to state an offense? Are you truly hurt and want to understand, to connect?
Isn't your reply of being offended the same as my perspective? Are we not both reacting to outside stimulus? So in a way, we are in agreement, yet the fact and manner of your reply signifies what? That you want answers? Or ego stimulation? Or a sense of meaning, importance?
Anyways, if you do not relate to what I say-fine. But what does that really mean? Does it not mean you as a person are only admitting to a disconnect? Connect to awareness?

[Jim Eshelman]

Pluto is heretic and you can become very unpopular just because your disagree.

I might suggest that it isn't that you disagree, but how you disagree. Voicing strong, contrary opinions in a way that gives priority to social connection will keep you socially connected. Doing it in a way that disregards or flies in the face of social connection likely will isolate you.

And about the supernatural ability, I can sense what people wants to do and what thoughts they are hiding just by focusing my attention on them. But I can't perceive what happened decades ago unless you think those thought in your mind. Another possibility is that I am mentally sick and begin to imagine I possess some supernatural power, and should go to mental hospital thereof, because Pluto also rules disasters.

Again, the key is probably in your presentation. Even without the Mercury-Pluto, your Aries luminaries show you like to be contrary and conflictual. Similarly, the "powers" you mention aren't that rare, and many people around you have them, but probably don't talk aloud about ideas of dark demons from hell whispering "truths" in their ears, they just show a heightened insight into people (more accurate according to their ability to filter out their own emotions and prejudices). Those who find themselves heading to mental hospitals tend to be those who appear far enough outside social and consensual reality boundaries that they can't continue to function in their lives.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

You're describing how you perceive other people reacting to this aspect. But it's your aspect, not theirs. This is an aspect that is almost obsessively curious and reactive. You see things YOUR way, and if other people tell you you're mistaken, or even that whatever you're on about is none of your business, your double Aries luminaries can get very domineering and angry.
Other people don't see you're trying to get at the truth, and frankly they don't see why you think their truth is any of your business. What they do see is you attacking them. All the time. You frustrate them because you just can't let anything go and have a nice dinner for once.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Jim: Jinx.

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, not just you... anyone here (including myself most of all)... to strengthen our science I certainly will take any such idea, help edit and refine it, challenge it, run it through tests, demand evidence, and more. Especially, when there is a claim made that so-and-so is true, the simplest thing we can do is do what you call pick it apart - make sure whether it's on target or not.

Don't expect to bring forth observations without people questioning them, comparing them to actual examples, engaging on how they are articulated. The only other reasonable thing someone could do would be to ignore them, right?

It's not just me... and it's not just you. We are here to hone ideas and make sure that we don't put forth anything that isn't so (as far as we can help it).

Would you rather everyone just ignored you? This isn't a bulletin board where you can just come post whatever you want and have it stand as if it's so.

[Jim Eshelman]

And in this forum I want to prove to you astrology house really exist but was considered as a challenge to authority by Jim.

Raising the question of the existence of houses is not a challenge of authority at all. I supported your looking into it at every step. Once you start presenting possible evidence, though, then that evidence needs to be scrutinized.

There is a stage of research where quality evidence has not yet been gathered by anyone, but there is enough anecdotal evidence - individual cases where "it looks like something is here" to perhaps warrant looking further. Your presentation on houses is in this category. The examples are single cases which, by themselves, mean nothing, but may suggest that further looking is warranted. I suspect you would say that you have been watching this a long time, and you have seen many high quality examples. However, until these are presented, nobody else can assess your evidence.

Much of what is wrong with astrology is that people make unsubstantiated claims, and then others take their word for it. Most people don't understand the real nature of evidence.

I disagree that there abundant evidence exists on favor of houses. I've looked myself, and reviewed research reports for half a century, and there is not one study I can find that shows that (by one or another method of house-division) there is a meaningful twelving of the mundane sphere, or that a specific behavior or life-condition or other carefully defined characteristic aligns with one house placement so frequently (or infrequently) that it can't easily be explained by chance. There are inferences and innuendos and cool examples. I can give a meaningful explanation of every house placement in my own chart, but that's not good enough - to much elasticity, too little comparison to others with some commonly defined characteristic and common house characteristic.

Given the absence of quality evidence, I'd be completely justified in saying that the evidence is so vacuous as to suggest that no such things as houses exist. Instead, I take the moderate view that there so often seems to be something that, but not so clearly that we can pin it down or say anything at all concretely, so perhaps we should keep looking.

We just have to be discriminating in our looking.