Pisces, the devil (Garth Allen)

[Jim Eshelman]

In his article on the statistical study of boxers, Garth Allen wrote:

Highest number of boxers in the sidereal sequence are Pisceans, not so deep a mystery as one might suppose on realization that the sidereal concept of Pisces is a far cry from the clammy-handed, soulful-eyed stereotypes in tropical astrology. Pisces can be a real devil, hence its consignment to the pitchfork-wielding Neptune. The legend of imps and demons is directly connected with Neptune-Pisces symbolism. In Manilius' famous old poem, which we often find quotable, war is mentioned only three times, one of which is in his Pisces section: "To fight at sea, to stain the waves with blood, whilst war lies floating on the unstable flood." In fact, it is only under Pisces that he mentioned bloodletting in battle, which is certainly provocative, because his other references to war speak rather of the excitement, clangor and plunder.

[Jim Eshelman]

I figured Capricorn or Saturn/Mars high on Boxers and devil like. Pisces- sea devil? Ah... I would not have though this. [...] He may have something in the blood shed, clangor and plundering. I can see Pisces as more a scavenger. Parasitic too.

Pisces was the actual high, with the other important high in Gemini (the sign of the mythic creator of boxing, Pollux). You're indirectly right about Capricorn, though, in the sense that a tight cluster of degrees centered on 27-28° was the most concentrated presence of all the 1,113 Sun longitudes - the exact exaltation degree of Mars.

Cancer is more the scavenger - Manilius even alludes to that, plus crabs are actual scavengers. Pisces are simply crazy@! <g> They seem to hurl themselves into anything that has overwhelmingly intense sensation and as little reason as possible.

[Jim Eshelman]

Have you noticed anything in particular about planets (and/or luminaries) in conjunction with Venus exaltation?

I'm not aware of any studies, although individual cases pop up here and there. Charles Baudelaire had his Sun at this degree, as does a woman I knew long ago who was one of the most ardent, indulgent women I've ever known.

For Moon in this degree, there are several literary figures (mostly women), one startling mind in John Forbes Nash, and somebody I know from Nebraska.

I'm inclined to think that planets in that degree (give or take 1 or 2) act pretty much like they are conjunct Venus in an especially untame way.

[Jim Eshelman]

I know the Neptune in Pisces would make them love intense feelings and emotional vitality, but why would a Pisces choose boxing for that, instead of drama, debate or anything else less painful? (Am I letting my pain-abhorring Libra self get into play here?)

Yes, you are - because Libra is at the bottom of the list for boxers.

You picked an interesting comparison, BTW. Boxers are more like actors than they are like other kinds of athletes. In the same article where Bradley reported on the boxing statistics, he compared them to other professions where psychologists had found psychological similarities and dissimilarities. Boxers and actors had nearly identical sign patterns, whereas boxers and clergymen had almost perfectly reversed patterns.

Another comparison made was to baseball players. Now, baseball is the one sport where Libra shows exceptionally well. Bradley made the remark in passing that this made total sense because, if one were athletically inclined and a Libra, one would more likely pick an easy-going, slow-paced sport like baseball and minimize the odds of getting hurt.

We can use the same language for boxers: If one is athletically inclined and a Pisces, one is likely to pick the sport that has the highest drama, passion, etc. - one that is psychologically most like actors - and that would be boxing.

Why is Pisces associated with blood-letting anyway? James, (and JSAD, if you would like to chime in ) you [both] have your Moon in Pisces, do you feel like being a daredevil at times, and do you tend to not mind risk for emotional/adrenaline reward?

I don't buy the daredevil interpretation. Pisces just wants sensation, unreason, hurling oneself into the fray - think Wolverine's "berserker rage," utterly losing himself to the animal side. Pisces is big on losing themselves to the animal side when they aren't busy trying to play the role of someone sophisticated.

Well I know—and Jim does in his standard interpretation—that angular Neptune people are afraid of rejection and betrayal, (because of emotional insecurity?) so maybe Pisceans are also afraid of it?

But I didn't say that about Pisces, did I? I went and checked, and the letters "reject" don't appear in either Pisces interpretation. Did I miss something?

[Jim Eshelman]

(Though I think you'll find the theme of betrayal or being betrayed is more common than the rejection thing as such.)

Yup. Reject me, no hard feelings. Betray me, lie to me, I won't go out of my way to hurt you but if you were drowning, I wouldn't throw you a rope. Actually, I probably would, but the other end wouldn't be tied to anything. Turnabout is fair.

Remember this basic of Pisces Sun or Moon: "Pisces is never more themselves than when they are being somebody else.

This isn't intentional deceit or play-acting, at least not in my case. It's a chameleon thing. When my parents took us on a cross-county trip, everywhere we went people thought my brother and I lived in the area because we picked up the accent so thoroughly and so quickly. Recently I was working with people in Texas over the phone and they thought I was from Texas. It's entirely unconscious, like mirroring in a conversation. I don't assume other people's opinions, but I do pick up their mannerisms and accents without meaning to or realizing I have.