World War 11

[SteveS]

Confucius tells us:

To divine the future, study the past.

And the above quote certainly applies to mundane astrologers. Being retired, I love to study the past with mundane astrology. With t. Jupiter partiling cnj my n. Mercury and a potent Mercury SLR, I am definitely learning new things with mundane astrology, and am now convinced of a better understanding for the mundane astrological timing for World War 11. I will explain what my mind sees. Reading in my ‘Mundane Astrology’ book, by Michael Baigent, Nicholas Campion and Charles Harvey—Mr. Harvey writes:

The Sun-Mars cycle can be remarkably precise in timing moments of international tension and crises. Barbault notes that the perihelion 180 cycle of Sun-Mars, which occurs about every 15 years to be particularly powerful in this respect. Such a perihelion 180 of Sun-Mars occurred on July 23, 1939 as the Polish question was coming to a head. This was quickly followed by another on October 10, 1941 at the very juncture where Japan was secretly planning its attack on Pearl Harbor. (The orders were transmitted on Oct-5-7 October.)

July 23, 1939 ‘Polish Question’ chart below. Partile 180 Sun-Mars which definitely kick-started War World 11 in Europe. It is a most striking chart. Please note the Grand Cardinal Cross involving Moon-Saturn, Sun-Mars, throwing in Pluto with this Cardinal Cross, and we definitely get the ugly planetary picture for the beginning of War World 11 in Europe.
http://imgur.com/a/QKItI
to be continued with an eventual look at DC's July 23 2018 Caplunar with its partile angular Sun-Mars 180. But, I am not seeing another World War.

[SteveS]

I strongly suggest mundane astrologers look at Boyd’s 11:00 AM July 6, 1775 USA Quarti SSR- Chart below, which just so happens to set-up on Oct 10, 1941 with the partile 180 perihelion Sun-Mars cycle. Also, it just so happens this Sun-Mars 180 falls on the North-South point (square the Vertex-Anti-Vertex axis) for this Oct 10 Quarti SSR.
http://imgur.com/a/Xvk6T
to be continued

[Jim Eshelman]

Steve, what happened on July 23, '39? (What's the event of the event chart.)

Hitler didn't invade Poland until September 1, and there were cascading events unfolding in the days following. England's declaration of war was September 3. The solar ingresses weren't as good for this as the shorter-term factors, but the Cansolar did have a Moon-Mars-Saturn-Pluto T-square all within a degree.

The Capsolar had a 61' Moon-Mars conjunction. The Cansolar had a 06' Moon-Mars opposition (part of Moon-Mars-Saturn-Neptune). The extraordinary Caplunar had a 03' Moon-Mars conjunction, also aspecting Saturn and Pluto and this time right on the angles. Even the Arilunar (fourth time out of four charts) has a 41' Moon-Mars square.

When Hitler invaded Poland September 1, the CapQ focus was on Mars. Two days later, for the declaration of war, it had switched to Uranus.
But... what happened six weeks earlier on July 23?

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Was that when Germany invaded Poland? I don't think that event has much to do with the Polish Question, which is "Should Poland be an independent country, or divided up between surrounding empires to act as a buffer between them?"

Edited to add: Nope. Germany invaded Poland in Sept, after German soliders dressed up prisoners as Polish soldiers, murdered them and pretended it was a Polish insurgence attack against the Germans on August 31st.

[SteveS]

Jim asked:

Steve, what happened on July 23, '39? (What's the event of the event chart.)

Not sure exactly what the Poland event on that date, but by what the authors of the book are implying is something to do with Poland on that specific date. I will try to narrow this down to the precise Poland situation on July 23, 1939. The authors of Mundane Astrology are saying with Barbault’s (French mundane astrologer) work, he isolated the Sun-Mars 180 perihelion as the harbinger of this major European war. So, I think in this case, Barbault's event is the actual partile 180 of Sun-Mars perihelion in the heavens which signaled WW11. In other words, the malefic aspects in the heavens to the partile Sun-Mars 180 was the chart for Barbault which set-up WW11.

Not sure if I understand this 'perihelion.' Are Sun-Mars partile 180's always perihelion, or just for July 23, 1939?

[Jim Eshelman]

There's no necessary relationship between geocentric aspect and Mars' (or any planet's) perihelion and aphelion.

Now, it's different with perigee and apogee. Mars is on Earth's side of the Sun at Sun-Mars opposition, and on the other side of the Sun (apogee) at the Sun-Mars conjunction.

But no similar pattern for perihelion and aphelion.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Now, it's different with perigee and apogee. Mars is on Earth's side of the Sun at Sun-Mars opposition, and on the other side of the Sun (apogee) at the Sun-Mars conjunction.

Then, I can only assume this is what Campion meant to say for the correct choice of words. I think Barbault saw the t. exact Sun-Mars 180 exciting the Saturn-Pluto 90 with the cardinal cross, and inflaming a certain Polish situation which prompted Germany to invade/attack.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

The Capsolar had a 61' Moon-Mars conjunction. The Cansolar had a 06' Moon-Mars opposition (part of Moon-Mars-Saturn-Neptune). The extraordinary Caplunar had a 03' Moon-Mars conjunction, also aspecting Saturn and Pluto and this time right on the angles. Even the Arilunar (fourth time out of four charts) has a 41' Moon-Mars square.

Indeed, we have discussed London's 1939 Cansolar before, and the authors of the book discuss the Cansolar. Here is London’s 1939 Cansolar:
The authors make a big point discussing the Asc/Mc=Moon-Mars-Pluto. Jim is there an easy way for the eyes to identify the Asc/Mc axis with SF?
http://imgur.com/a/DBxNM

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim is there an easy way for the eyes to identify the Asc/Mc axis with SF?

You can use the Midpoint Listing report, see its location in the tip half, then look at the bottom half to see what else is there.

You can set up a custom view that includes the midpoint as if it's a planet.

I've always been suspicious of this practice, though. It gives heightened importance, as if angular, to a region that is always in the weakest part of the quadrant, sometimes (for mundane charts) the very weakest (i.e., mid-quadrant).

PS - Did they really examine the Cansolar in the book? All the authors you've mentioned are dedicated Tropical astrologers. Was it maybe the Summer Solstice chart instead (i.e., the "Tropical Cancer Ingress")?

[SteveS]

Jim asked:

Did they really examine the Cansolar in the book?

Definitely! The authors write:

If one chart will convince us of the sidereal zodiac and that the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa is correct, then the 1939 Cansolar is it! Here we find an almost exact MO-0-PL-180 MA,-90 SA and the whole configuration falls on the MC/AS--a devastating testimony of harsh struggles ahead.

Later, I will try to explain where Barbault is coming from with his Sun-Mars 180's. His analysis/take of Sun-Mars 180's, I think, can help us Sidereal Astrologers when it comes to seeing better-- possible major international-military crises in the mundane world.

[Jim Eshelman]

Interesting, thanks.

While I don't want to do anything to dissuade them from their potential conviction I need to mention that the very reason they give is the reason that goes against some of the strongest, most basic tenets of the system they come close to praising.

The Cansolar is indeed important - in a way that applies to the entire world, rather than only England - because the only thing it really has going for it are Moon aspects, and those Moon aspects are every bit as spectacular as the authors say:

6°43' Aries Saturn
6°58' Cancer Pluto
7°11' Cancer Moon
7°15' Capricorn Mars

And yes, A/M midpoint is 6°52' Cancer. All of these points are mid-quadrant, the weakest part of an ingress chart.

If they want the "one chart" relative to this event to "convince us of the sidereal zodiac and that the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa is correct," I recommend the August 26 Caplunar which has much the same picture, but angular:

28°51' Virgo Asc
0°00' Capricorn Moon
0°03' Capricorn Mars

6°15' Cancer MC
7°14' Aries Saturn
8°03' Cancer Pluto

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

If they want the "one chart" relative to this event to "convince us of the sidereal zodiac and that the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa is correct," I recommend the August 26 Caplunar which has much the same picture, but angular:
28°51' Virgo Asc
0°00' Capricorn Moon
0°03' Capricorn Mars

Yes, an excellent observation getting Europe closer to Hitler invading Poland on September 1, the actual beginning of war, showing the importance of partile aspects to cardinal lights. But, I see an even more precise timing mechanism which involves Barbault’s observation about Sun-Mars aspects timing ‘moments of international tensions and crises,’ which involves Sidereal Astrology. Note: On Aug 22, 1939, t. Mars becomes stationed at 00,01 Capricorn, partile (exact by 1 second) 180 Cansolar Sun (Sun- Mars). t. Cap Mars 0,30 remains partile 180 Cansolar Sun on Sept. 1 when the actual war begins with Hitler’s invasion of Poland. This Sun-Mars 180 precisely times the beginning of war on Europe’s stage. Next, I will get into another partile Sun-Mars 180 with Sidereal charts, timing USA involvement which actually escalated this war into WW 11. Btw,I think you would agree we don't actually need the AS/MC for the 1939 Cansolar, but it is an interesting outlier.

[SteveS]

Barbault was a dedicated French mundane astrologer (Tropical). The authors of Mundane Astrology write:

Barbault took the 93 major outbreaks of war between 1850 and 1969 looking for Mars angularity with the cardinal (tropical) ingresses and lunations. From his studies Barbault himself concludes ‘I cannot help thinking that these results block the possibility of localizing war events through the use of ingresses (tropical) and lunations…I tremble for my colleagues who make forecasts based on these charts alone.’

If my understanding is correct, the authors of Mundane Astrology say the main result from Barbault tropical war studies is what Barbault discovered about the Sun-Mars partile 180 cycle related to national charts and the Sun-Mars 180 in the heavens keying the timing harbinger for certain outbreaks of war. See above quote by authors in another post about Barbault’s Sun-Mars 180s. There is no doubt in my mind that cardinal ingresses in the Fagan-Bradley Sidereal Zodiac offer superb mundane charts, the best compared to any other mundane technique. London’s 1939 Cansolar, imo, is the key mundane chart for predicting Europe’s outbreak of war between Germany and Poland on Sept 1, 1939. However, when it comes to the DC Cardinal Sidereal ingresses for 1941 forecasting USA-- Japan’s involvement into WW11, I was very disappointed and puzzled. On the other hand, Barbault’s 180 Sun-Mars war cycles with Boyd’s July 6, 1775 USA Chart nailed the time frame for the harbinger of USA-Japan involvement into WW11. Below is a bi-wheel of Boyd’s 11:00 AM LMT July 6, 1775 Chart (inside wheel) and Boyd’s Oct 10, 1941 DC Quarti 90 SSR (outside wheel). Note: There is Barbault’s Sun-Mars partile 180 (outside wheel) partile 90 Boyd’s Sun.
I also find it very interesting Boyd’s Sun is partile cnj Quarti SSR Vertex, no coincidence, imo. And Boyd’s Natal Chart has Asc, Vertex, East Point, and SVP partile cnj. More later with more elaboration on Barbault’s war discovery with partile Sun-Mars 180’s.
http://imgur.com/a/iD4E1

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, an excellent observation getting Europe closer to Hitler invading Poland on September 1, the actual beginning of war, showing the importance of partile aspects to cardinal lights.

Well, to Moon. Similar aspects to Sun are of no unusual significance unless foreground, i.e., they act just like aspects of any other planet. Only Moon has the stand-out unique distinction of being universally important. (One of the coolest things the whole SMA project disclosed early on is that Moon is per se the key planet of mundane astrology, referring as it does to mass-mind specifically.

I think I wasn't clear enough (wasn't stopping to give all the details) on the last post. The primary techniques we already use already covered, down to the day, these events, at least from England's perspective, including marking September 1, the day Hitler invaded Poland. Besides the broader pattern of transiting Uranus exactly opposing Capsolar Moon (in fact, the Capsolar Moon-Mars conjunction) - surely important on a world scope - London's CapQ for September 1 totally pegged the invasive assault that was like an attack on England itself: It brought all this to the angles, with a flourish. The CapQ MC was 28° Capricorn (Mars' exaltation degree), exactly square the opposition of transiting Uranus (28° Aries) and Capsolar Moon-Mars (28° Libra). "Lightning war" indeed! (It couldn't really have been any better.)

On Aug 22, 1939, t. Mars becomes stationed at 00,01 Capricorn, partile (exact by 1 second) 180 Cansolar Sun (Sun- Mars). t. Cap Mars 0,30 remains partile 180 Cansolar Sun on Sept. 1 when the actual war begins with Hitler’s invasion of Poland. This Sun-Mars 180 precisely times the beginning of war on Europe’s stage.

My skepticism rests on the fact that transits to ingress Suns has shown no significance at all (i.e., no more than any other planet). Moon, yes; Sun, no. Mars at 0c Capricorn is quite important, but I think primarily because it was (due to its station) in recurring partile hard aspect to Moon. We have Moon-Mars in every important layer of the event: the Year solar ingress, the Quarter solar ingress, the Month lunar ingress, the Week lunar ingress, and the CapQ for the day.

Btw,I think you would agree we don't actually need the AS/MC for the 1939 Cansolar, but it is an interesting outlier.

The A/M midpoint has been a worrisome spot for me for decades, and I find it interesting only in the sense of a nuisance. In theory you'd expect a midpoint of two personal points to be important. On the other hand, there is no point proven more solidly than that, for ingresses, mid-quadrant is the weakest point of expression (consider the rainfall study alone; but there is more). Anything that necessarily involves mid-quadrant places as somehow highlighted is necessarily questionable. I think the importance here is not that contact, but Moon's involvement - as if the Mars, Saturn, and Pluto were universally angular for the whole world (Moon acting as if it were an angle), at a time that the whole world was erupting.

[Jim Eshelman]

However, when it comes to the DC Cardinal Sidereal ingresses for 1941 forecasting USA-- Japan’s involvement into WW11, I was very disappointed and puzzled.

Agreed. That's by no means a showpiece event, at least from Washington. (The Moon-Pluto progressions and transits did show a world-impacting critical time. This, and the drawing of the U.S. into the war, was quite true for the world in any case, though we'd like to see it for the U.S.)

My view: The event showed well for Pearl Harbor itself. The Week chart (Canlunar) is exactly right, and the quotidians brought appropriate contacts for the day in addition to all the Moon-Pluto.

Washington is less of a "show piece." The final daily timing, in particular, required some thought to understand. The first hurdle for understanding the Washington charts is that the Venus-dominated Capsolar was, in fact, correct: A majority in the nation was passionately committed to peace, and staying out of the war, for 11 months of that year - and then Pearl Harbor hit. But the lunar ingresses then take over for the shorter term: A partile Moon-Mars mundane square (i.e., unique to Washington), Saturn 08' from square MC, Uranus tightly angular. I find this Moon-Mars mundane aspect especially noteworthy BTW: Most of the rest of the world already came to war in 1939 under a serial barrage of Moon-Mars aspects, but the U.S. stayed out. Then, with the rest of the world already fighting, Washington got its own unique-to-that-spot Moon-Mars aspect (mundane aspects are as unique to a geographic region as angularities), and the U.S. went the same route.

Anyway, an exact Moon-Mars, excruciatingly close Saturn, and Uranus close for surprises is a big hit.

Besides the universal Moon-Pluto combinations timing the event to within less than a week, the daily indicators are... controversial. You might say bad. They at least need explanation. (Details in SMA, p. 410.) They do show the patriotic, enthusiastic rush to enlist. I think they also show covert business interests having a hand in stirring the war (if not the attack itself). But I admit they aren't the first thing we'd want to see.

Six weeks later, a new Capsolar made the picture unambiguous for Washington, with Sun on MC and Mars on EP. (Throw in Saturn and Uranus, too.) We were off to war, and off to exercise leadership in the war. The contrasts are quite sharp between the Capsolars for 1941 (a year we were emphatically not at war and wanting peace) and 1942 (a year we were surging into a new war [for us], and quite definitely all in.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote for the Dec 7th Canlunar:

A partile Moon-Mars mundane square (i.e., unique to Washington), Saturn 08' from square MC,

Yes, I have to put in my important notes to scan for these partile mundo Moon-aspects. Moon-Mars par-excellent symbolism for a war-like condition. Also, a good lesson: never underestimate a lunar ingress.

[Jim Eshelman]

Indeed. Pearl Harbor was interesting because the Caplunar wasn't useful for either Hawaii or Washington, but the Arilunar the night before was dead-on for both.

I don't know if you remember... in the first few versions of SMA, I had an appendix listing, for every event, simply the most recent lunar ingress and the daily (quotidian) stuff. Current Week chart and CapQ alone, with no other help, nail the vast majority of events quite well. (We do need more than that in general, but these are still our two strongest-rated techniques.)

[SteveS]

I understand Jim, but I still must go with Boyd's Oct 10 1941 Quarti to Boyd's Natal Sun as best chart for indicating war, along with the Quarti's quotidians for Dec 8 & 11 for USA declaration of war on Japan & Germany. I agree and have known the Pearl Harbor SMA charts were excellent, but this would have been useless to the mundane astrologer for foresight, not knowing where the attack would occur. I base my personal research into mundane astrology as gaining knowledge in order to possibly act in an individual manner with clear foresight. Don't get me wrong, SMA by far, is still the best mundane astrology tool I have ever analyzed, and you know I deeply respect your work.

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm sure the Boyd chart, which is our first declaration of war chart, is relevant for declarations of war. (Matthew and I did that kind of digging and confirmation back in the '80s.) Having settled that, I have no interest in it. It's not a general purpose birth chart for the USA IMHO, just our war chart - which, of course, makes it relevant to your recent interest in predicting war

But... quotidians of a quarti? Really? I'm not even convinced any longer that quarti-solars are worth the trouble of setting them up in most cases.

I base my personal research into mundane astrology as gaining knowledge in order to possibly act in an individual manner with clear foresight.

Good goal!

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim. My main interest in understanding as much as I can with war foresight is what Jim Rogers sees on the horizon pertaining to the financial world involving US. Roger's see's two things which could upset the world financial system and one of them is war, but he does does not foresee a major war on the horizon. Because of Trump's relocated DC Natal, I think the probability of war is much higher than Roger's analyzes/sees. Hopefully, Trump's relocated DC Mars/ASC will continue to only manifest domestically instead of on the World Stage.