Re: The Novien - Fagan's views
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:19 am
Thats a very tropical idea - For the most part, I don't think it matters much which is the first sign EXCEPT for things like the novien (and, theoretically, other harmonic charts) IF the resulting positions are deemed objective (able to interact with other planets, like another person's natal). In that case it matters: Whether you pick a hub, rim, or spoke sign as the start determines where the novien longitudes fall,Arena wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 6:30 am Is it possible that a beginning or the first sign is associated with the astrological age and would therefore change according to the current age?
It's all over the academic world. Fagan summarized some of it in the first chapter of Astrological Origins, but academic sourovien,ces are rock solid. Every country or region that is known to have had an indigenous zodiac began it with Taurus.The is just a thought. I don't know the sources for the idea of the first sign being Taurus.
As far as I can remember, he only mentioned one sort of thing, and it's something I'm not sure is astrologically valid: He was very taken with moon's SIGN in the novien (I'm not: I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't valid at all). The idea is that you look at Moon's novien sign - and the novien of that - and the novien of that - to get a set of signs that describes the person's temperament. (IMHO this is as bad as "trying to guess the Ascendant.") For example, my novien Moon falls in Libra. If we accept (I do not) that I'm fundamentally Libran, we next go to novien-of-novien, where my Moon falls in the last degree of Pisces. One would then assess whether I'm more Pisces or Aries and tip the natal Moon position accordingly.Does Fagan explain how he would go about rectification using the Novien Moon or the Navamsha? As you stated in this thread, just a couple of minutes may totally distort these Novien/Navamsha calculations.
I don't think the novien is useful in fine-tuned rectification. However, if no time is known - or it's only known broadly - aspects (especially of Moon) in the novien, or of novien positions to natal planets, might easily narrow the time. Moon moves through more than a third of the novien 'zodiac' every day. Historically, we haven't had "daily motion in the novien" readily available (we can calculate it, but it's not obvious). We're planning to build all of this into a novien report for Time Matters that will include all sorts of things known to be useful and things perhaps useless (but trying to fit all of Fagan's main points into it for study). Here's a mock-up of what (one part of) my novien report might look like. You can see that several planets move very rapidly, which might help find a general range of the day someone was born.
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Nov. Long Speed Natal Long
Mo 6Li35'54" +132°18' 27Aq24' 0" Moon's Noviens
Su 22Sc09'14" + 8°54' 22Vi27'42" 1 6Li35'54"
Me 6Cn09'21" + 6°44' 17Li21' 3" 2 29Pi23' 6"
Ve 16Sc55'07" + 4°28' 1Sc52'48" 3 24Cn27'54"
Ma 20Ar18'02" + 5°30' 28Sg55'21"
Ju 2Sg30'46" + 1°36' 3Cn36'46" Sun's Noviens
Sa 14Ge29'25" + 1°01' 14Li56'37" 1 22Sc09'14"
Ur 29Sc5933" + 11'33" 3Cn19'58" 2 19Ta23'06"
Ne 12Aq03'34" + 19'57" 1Li20'24" 3 23Li27'54"
Pl 18Le55'13" + 12'00" 2Le 6' 8"