Declinations

[Jim Eshelman]

(March 17, 2008)

Jim,
Just to open another can of worms -- what are your thoughts, etc., on paying attention to the parallel and contra-parallel declination contacts? Obviously "orb" is an important consideration, as Rob Hand has pointed out. When I was first learning astrology, back in the dark days of paper and pencil, parallels and contra-parallels were part of the aspect package. Since planets in ecliptic aspect to each other are often also in parallel/contra-parallel, do you think that these pairings get an added "umph"? And what about planets NOT in ecliptic aspect that are in par/contra?

Current Tropical practice has astrologers raving (or raging) about planets being "out of bounds", further North or South of the bounds of the Ecliptic. They're also watching "prog decs", graphs of when secondary progressed planets cross the celestial equator or reach max North/South and "turn around".

As I said, another can of worms....

Sidereally yours,
Matthew

[Jim Eshelman]

Just to open another can of worms -- what are your thoughts, etc., on paying attention to the parallel and contra-parallel declination contacts? Obviously "orb" is an important consideration, as Rob Hand has pointed out. When I was first learning astrology, back in the dark days of paper and pencil, parallels and contra-parallels were part of the aspect package. Since planets in ecliptic aspect to each other are often also in parallel/contra-parallel, do you think that these pairings get an added "umph"? And what about planets NOT in ecliptic aspect that are in par/contra?

I have never been able to demonstrate to myself that parallels and contras have any validity.

At the same time, there is more to declination than appears on the surface, and there may be something we're missing here. I'm quite open to being shown that there is something we've missed, and (perhaps from early TZ training? or just from a geometric sense of things?) am more emotionally open to it being a declination structure than to it being... well, lots of other stuff.

When I say there's more to declination's role... well, it might not be the usual aspect stuff. For example, a planet's crossing of the Celestial Equator (crossing zero declination) is surely a significant event astronomically and astrologically. Probably it's greatest declination (as a phasal or "turning point" phenomenon) also is likely more important than given credit. (There has been very important work done in the past on weather prediction - especially temperatures - based on declinations maximas.) Then there are the ways that declination affects other phenomena such as parans etc. There's a lot hidden between the lines.

On orbs - the most sensible approach I've ever seen was introduced by Charles Jayne. It's based on the idea that, when planets reach extremes of declination, they slow their motion and there are very tiny declination changes over the period of considerable longitude changes. The way to get a handle on this is to convert the declination (when it's less than the Sun's maximum declination) to the longitude analog - the longitude the Sun has when in that degree of declination - and then apply to these analogous positions the orbs you would for a conjunction. This brings more sanity than the usual 1° standard.

So these are areas where I might look further. On the other hand, I've never been able to find anything to persuade me that the aspects of parallel and contra-parallel actually exist in a meaningful astrological way. (My own singularly close non-conjunction parallel is between two planets that are already in close sextile, and otherwise emphasized.)

If I were to test them at this point in time, I would do it with transits. It's too subjective to try to play the "does this extra aspect exist for this person" came, but transits at least call for something distinctive to actually happen. It would be a starting point. Transiting Pluto will parallel my Mercury in fourth quarter 2009 when it isn't making any ecliptical aspect - it would be worth watching that time. Transiting Uranus parallelled my Sun a year ago this week, adn then again from late September through January - when there were definitely huge changes and revelations occurring (but Pluto was conjunct my IC during that whole time - I'm just too close to it to get a realistic perspective).

The only parallel on 9/11 was Moon-Jupiter. I'd like to characterize that event as something more nuanced than "highly successful."

[Jim Eshelman]

If I were to test them at this point in time, I would do it with transits. It's too subjective to try to play the "does this extra aspect exist for this person" came, but transits at least call for something distinctive to actually happen. It would be a starting point. Transiting Pluto will parallel my Mercury in fourth quarter 2009 when it isn't making any ecliptical aspect - it would be worth watching that time.

to awake this old thread (an excellent can of worms, thanks mquellas ) - Jim, what's your finding on the matter? did anything relevant happen?

[Jim Eshelman]

If I were to test them at this point in time, I would do it with transits. It's too subjective to try to play the "does this extra aspect exist for this person" came, but transits at least call for something distinctive to actually happen. It would be a starting point. Transiting Pluto will parallel my Mercury in fourth quarter 2009 when it isn't making any ecliptical aspect - it would be worth watching that time.

to awake this old thread (an excellent can of worms, thanks mquellas ) - Jim, what's your finding on the matter? did anything relevant happen?

"Finding" is... I completely ignored it

However... trying to look back through the diary... there's nothing, really.

In thinking about this just now, I had a brief (wrong) impression that this was when I was writing Visions & Voices, which I would have taken as a clean "hit." But no, that was a year later. During this time I was preparing 776 1/2 for a major new edition, but that work was more editorial or plain writing, not with the Pluto-to-Mercury feel. One to two years later, I started planning (and then acting on) a revolutionary project that will see fruit in 2014, but that was quite too late for this declination transit.

So... nothing, really.

[Jim Eshelman]

So, to look a little further... add more recent data...

This year, Neptune was exactly parallel my natal Saturn in late February, and then again at around the end of September / early October. This was a stressful year because of work matters, though off-hand I wouldn't have called it a Neptune-to-Saturn type of thing (e.g., not depressive, "lost," etc.). The closest to this is the very broad "employment is less certain, more fickle overall" sort of background feeling, which has the sort of low-grade anxiety that conceivably could be attached to Neptune-to-Saturn. So... did it focus on those two time periods?

Well, from work point of view, neither of those was particularly anxiety driven. In other "performance" areas of my life, things were going particularly well.

The February time does cover the final illness of my, and the decision to let him go. (And, not long after that - but not in the exact weeks this was hitting exactly - my friend Warren Christopher died. This affected both me and our entire office.) But the late September period was quite the opposite tone: I'd had transiting Neptune on my local Descendant all summer and it lifted early September, I had Saturn's first conjunction pass to my Sun mid-September, and by late September I was feeling significant relief from all of that.

So... subjective impression... there is some evidence of this operating, but not consistently and not as a dominant influence. If it's there at al, it's as "background impressions;" and the second pass seems to have missed it altogether, even in terms of (say) free-floating anxiety. (It's actually been almost exactly in parallel for the year since late September, and that characteristic hasn't persisted - or, has occassionally floated in as a weak influence. Nothing I'd miss if I were trying to capture astrological effects in a life. Even though it's Neptune, I need to add, "nothing concrete." <g>)

Transiting Saturn was parallel my Sun at the end of October. This was the opposite of what I'd expect, since (after a summer of doing three people's jobs and getting no time off) this was the only real vacation of the year. Marion and I spent almost a week in NYC, did spend way too much money, but had a blast.

Saturn is now moving in to parallel my Neptune. I'm not feeling it yet, but it would be hard to differentiate from the conjunction. (PS - Over the next few days I have really horrible aspects - on exactly the same day as a progressed Moon opposite natal Neptune, transiting Saturn will conjoin the Neptune and oppose the Moon. There are other things supporting a general "psychologically messed up" week, some big event around the corner. Presuming I'm still alive and functioning in a week <g>, I'll try to remember to give a report. It does seem especially lunar oriented, since one support aspect is SQ Moon conjunct SSR Ascendant within a day of it. Strangely, even with this building, I haven't really felt Saturn-to-Neptune yet.)

[Jim Eshelman]

the only transiting parallel coming my way soon is tr Mars parallel r Pluto (- it will be active from Dec 31st till Feb 2nd ) - and nothing else similar (transiting or progressive) will be going on during that time, so we'll look and see...

I came to this question about the validity of parallel by trying to (astrologically) understand how my natal Mercury works - it has no Ptolemaic aspect, nor any of the 'minor' ones (semisquare and sesquisquare) - except conj. with Chiron.
Solar Fire lists contra-parallel with Jupiter and Uranus (orbs 02' and 38' respectively) and I realy see there's something to it - these two seem to describe more appropriately the way how my basic intellect operates, than any other planetary principle.

so that gave me the nudge to try to investigate the matter further (and this is happening just when tr Pluto entered the orb - of 1°- sesquisquare to my natal Mercury )

possible theoretical justification: maybe it can manifest in transit (and I agree that if there's anything to it, it has to be somehow experienced in transit) only where there are no other significant transit and progressive configurations going on.

PS - Over the next few days I have really horrible aspects - on exactly the same day as a progressed Moon opposite natal Neptune, transiting Saturn will conjoin the Neptune and oppose the Moon. There are other things supporting a general "psychologically messed up" week, some big event around the corner. Presuming I'm still alive and functioning in a week <g>, I'll try to remember to give a report. It does seem especially lunar oriented, since one support aspect is SQ Moon conjunct SSR Ascendant within a day of it.

hang in there, we need you

[Jim Eshelman]

I thought I'd update this thread on intervening observations concerning parallels. The bottom line is: even anecdotally there has been no discernible effect. On the other hand, I'm going out of my way to give them a fighting chance to overturn my decades-old view.

Some "excuses" that I'm giving to the aspects to justify why they seem to be "missing," i.e., not showing any corresponding results:
1. Maybe parallels are valid, but contraparallels aren't - so no contraparallel failures should be held against parallels.
2. Where aspects are to progressed angles, it's always possible that, after all these decades, I don't really have the right rate for progressing angles. (I doubt this, but I'm bending over backwards here.)

So, what have I had since early December when I last posted?

Jan 7: p. Mercury CPL p. Jupiter. Nothing discernible in the surrounding weeks. [But hey, maybe CPLs aren't valid.]

Jan 11: p. Moon CPL p. Venus. Nothing discernible. (Romantic life already going splendid, no changes noted. Was on a diet and really enjoying the food I was eating + the significant weight loss, but hardly indulgent in any usual way. In fact I got sick a day or two later, which is a rarety for me and arose out of very non-Venussy pushing too hard etc.) [But hey, maybe CPLs aren't valid.]

Jan 14: p. Moon PLL p. MC. You'd at least expect some public or professional (or, for that matter, ANY kind of) additional attention... nothing unusual. [But hey, maybe I don't really know how to progress the angles.]

Jan 21: p. Moon CPL p. Asc. Nothing discernible. [All above excuses will do.]

Feb 21: t. Jupiter CPL r. Saturn. Significantly earlier than the zodiacal opposition. Applicable in the sense that I'd been working massive hours, and the overtime pay was quite significant. (This was true for a couple of months, and this aspect feel in the midst of that.)

Mar 17: t. Saturn PLL r. Neptune.
Mar 18: t. Uranus PLL r. Moon
This one's harder to call. I've had a LOT of Uranus churning around of late. (Set up my current SSR for LA and note the Uranus aspects in it, and the Uranus transits to it the first part of 2012.) And a lot of this has had to do with circumstances surrounding my mom (see the aspects in the SSR, plus Uranus transits to it). Saturn-Neptune characterizes what's going on, but March 17 was also the day of the exact ecliptical conjunction of Saturn to my progressed Neptune. In this case, I'd have to say that the aspects fit (in a "broad quality of time" sense, not a pinpoint to the day sense), but that I can't distinguish the activity from surrounding aspects that I already know are of high-value / high-impact.

Apr 4: t. Uranus PLL r. Ascendant. WHen this occurred, I was back in my hometown dealing with the above issues. My note at the time about this aspect was "can't tell, too many similar factors operating." For example, solar arc Uranus conjoined my natal Eastpoint a few days earlier (so the whole week was the center of a year-long influence). On April 2, t. Uranus squared my s. Pluto. On the 11th, t. Uranus was conjunct my s. EP. Altogether, I was being swarmed by Uranus influences, and can't discern whether a Uranus parallel to my Ascendant was also operating.

Apr 20: p. Venus CPL p. MC. Nothing highly distinctive. One could say I was a bit more indulgent (between two trips to good-food-hard-to-find places, the weight crept up a few pounds). One can't credit it with romantic improvements, since that part of my life has been in a long-term high cycle. My note at the time was "nothing in particular." [Besides, maybe CPLs aren't valid, and/or I don't know how to progress the angles. )

Apr 29 (today): t. Uranus PLL r. Eastpoint. Gee, this would have been really appropriate if, say, I'd discovered by reviewing this record that, despite decades of thinking otherwise, parallels were an major, valuable astrological factor. But that's not what has happened. - Now, on the other hand, I didn't really expect anything from Uranus PLL the EP since the EP isn't a "real" point in its own right but, rather, a way to record where RA squares to the MC tend to occur. So... maybe that's the reason, right?

PS - I have a hard time not being sarcastic about some of these. At best, circumstances preclude me (thus far) from seeing distinctive contributions from these aspects. More likely, there's nothing to them... but I'll keep watching for a while.

So that anyone here can feel empowered to call me to task as we go along, here are the significant upcoming parallels (and contras) hitting my chart for the rest of the year:

May 21: t. Jup Cpl r. Mer
Jun 3: t. Sat Pll r. Sun
Jun 11: p. Mer Cpl r. Jup
Jul 3: t. Sat Pll r. Sun
Jul 15: t. Jup Pll r. Jup
Jul 29: t. Jup Pll r. Ura
Sep 9: t. Sat Pll r. Nep
Sep 27: t. Ura Pll r. EP
Oct 2: p. Mon Cpl r. Mer
Nov 2: t. Ura Pll r. Asc
Dec 9: p. Mon Cpl p. EP
Dec 13: t. Jup Pll r. Ura

[Jim Eshelman]

Follow-up: Yesterday (7/4/12) was the exact day of t. Saturn parallel my natal Sun. I have to say: zero.

I know what a Saturn-to-Sun transit feels like. There was ample situational opportunity for things to develop into that direction, and it simply didn't.

For the exact day, there was also t. Jupiter sesqui-square SSR Saturn. While this could have offset the effects, it wouldn't have eradicated something so potent as a conjunction-like Saturn-to-Sun transit. So I'm inlined to reiterate: Nothing, nada, zippo.

I'll continue watching, nonetheless.

[Jim Eshelman]

Reporting: The recent t. Jupiter parallel my r. Jupiter had no discernible effect. Nothing has been particularly bad - but neither has anything been the particular kind of "good" that one might expect from that aspect.

I'm just not seeing these aspects producing any discernible result. Jupiter to Uranus is creeping up next.

[UncleAries]

from my experience declinations only work when occultations or eclipses occur, only at conjunction or opposition placements you can check if youre dealing with something greater than an ecliptical longitudinal conjunctions and oppositions