Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

Wayne Turner wrote:Hi all,
As some of you know, the chart which we know in the West as a ninth harmonic is called the navamsha varga in Vedic astrology, and it is second only to the rasi, or natal chart, in importance. Why is this? What might not be realized is that this implies great importance for novile aspects, those aspects that are multiples of 40 degrees--40, 80, 120 and 160. Here are a few examples of why I think it is important to pay attention to these aspects.

Anthony (Tony) Joseph was executive secretary of NCGR for 3 years and considered himself to be a mythologist as well as an astrologer. {7 Dec 1946, 12:35 am EST, Cleveland, OH} He was well aware that his very close Pluto/Ceres opposition was at the midpoint of a Moon/Chiron quadnovile, which was probably an important factor in his continuing fascination with Greek and Roman mythology.

Another important astrologer, Alexander Ruperti, as a student of Dane Rudhyar, may also have been aware of his novile contacts. {23 May 1913, 10:30 pm MET, Stuttgart, Germany, from BC. He used 10:08-10:11 pm as rectified by Dane Rudhyar.} An excellent interview with him appeared in the December 1997 issue of The Mountain Astrologer. Besides being an astrologer, he was also a gifted healer and a trained osteopath. He discovered his healing gift when he spontaneously massaged and manipulated his mother's injured knee, which soon alleviated most of her discomfort. His novile complex is composed of a close Uranus/Saturn trine with Venus binovile Uranus and novile Saturn, which seems entirely appropriate, given the fact that osteopaths often work with the joints, and Saturn is most commonly associated with the skeletal system. Ruperti also had a close novile between Mars and Mercury, which might be associated with a surgeon's work, except that he used it instead with healing energies.

Francis Gumm, much better known as Judy Garland, has an extraordinarily powerful combination of planets in her natal chart. {10 June 1922, 6:00 am CST, Grand Rapids, Minnesota.} She was an entertainer of the old school, gifted not only as an actress but also as a singer and dancer. What few astrologers realize is that her natal Jupiter is exactly at the midpoint of a Venus/Moon quadnovile, meaning that all three are conjunct in a ninth harmonic chart! No wonder she was so charming as Dorothy, the magical child of OZ. However, she also has Mars quadnovile Pluto, showing a darker and ultimately tragic side, perhaps linked with her substance abuse.

Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. is perhaps best remembered for his speech on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963 where his refrain was "I have a dream". How appropriate it is that at the time of his birth Mercury made ninth harmonic aspects to both Jupiter and Neptune which were in a close trine. {15 Jan 1929, near noon, Atlanta, GA.} Mercury was 80° from Jupiter and 160° from Neptune.

Finally, on a mundane note, my research suggests that the first Christian Pentecost likely occurred on May 28, 30 CE in Jerusalem. A time of 9:45 am LMT shows powerful aspects for what some consider to be the founding date of the Christian church. At that time a nearly exact trine from Jupiter to Uranus had the Sun exactly at their midpoint, with Mercury in ninth harmonic aspect to both, 40° from Jupiter and 80° from Uranus. Comparing this combination to that in King's chart gives us an excellent lesson in both the rhetorical nature of Mercury/Jupiter contacts, and the difference signified by Uranus versus Neptune.

If you are looking for an extra dimension in your chart analysis, you can be assured that the "minor" novile aspect family is one ingredient well worth looking at. An orb of one degree works well, which helps to focus on the strongest aspects. (In fact I use a one degree orb for almost everything in my research.) Let me know what you find if you decide to check this out. Also see these posts regarding the ninth and twelfth harmonic charts in sidereal longitude: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1109&p=6082

Regards,
Wayne

PS If reading this causes a sense of deja vu, it's because a slightly differnt version was originally posted on the NCGR Yahoo Group a while back.

SteveS wrote:Wayne, I am wondering if noviles could offer valid symbolism for Solunar charts, particularly the SSR. Since a SSR, in a sense, is a new birth chart-- it would seem to me noviles could offer some symbolism with the SSR. Jim—have you tested any noviles with SSR charts?

Regards, Steve

SteveS wrote:Some Fagan writings pertaining to the Novien:

“From the beginning the present writer looked upon such micro zodiacs as schematicism pure and simple, and would therefore have nothing to do with it…Since 1958, lunar tables are so accurate [that] that it is now possible, notwithstanding the Moon’s erratic daily motion, to obtain the Moon’s longitude to fractions of seconds of arc, and since 1921, all hospital entered births are recorded here in the U.S.A. to the nearest minute. In view of this, the present writer, notwithstanding his prejudice, was moved to have another look at the navamsa, especially at the vimshottari dasa system, fundamentally based on the same idea, and which depended entirely on the sidereal longitude of the natal Moon…
Philogistically, it would appear that the ayanamsas had their origin in ancient Egypt, for the Egyptian phonetics for the new Moon, psd (peshed), and for the number nine were identical! …it is proposed to use the Latin novien which means “nine times…”
It must be supposed as our Hindu brethren would have us believe that the novien chart is a secondary geniture. It is nothing of the sort. It is an aspectarian-vernier. It permits the user to measure micro-aspects that may not be otherwise apparent, especially to the Moon…always remembering that here we are dealing with micro-ecliptical mutual configurations, and not with the mundane sphere. Remember an orb of merely one degree in the birth chart is equivalent to an orb of nine degrees in the novien, so it is not difficult to see how sensitive and critical the novien can be. It would seem the antiquated Egyptians had solved “in minutes” the problem of symbolics some 6000 years before Messrs, Franklin and Carter had “progressed” to that idea.” Primer of Sidereal Astrology.

Fagan then ‘put the noviens to a practical test’ with an excellent example that described a native’s character—not seen in the natal chart.

Wayne Turner wrote:Hi Steve,
The best way to learn about noviles is to look at as many examples as you can find. As I pointed out in my first post they seem to be quite powerful, both on a personal and mundane level.

If I remember correctly, Fagan calculated the Novien with 0 degrees Taurus as the starting point. This would not be the same as a ninth harmonic/Navamsha chart, and Jim pointed out elsewhere that his experience showed that the regular navamsha was the better chart. Fagan experimented with various techniques, not all of which survived years of testing.

Regards,
Wayne

Quote from Jim's post: By the mid-'70s I had reverted to the classic Navamsa - zodiac starting from cardinal rather than fixed. This was based on the Novien/Navamsa Moon sign comparison in terms of character traits. For example, my Novien Moon is in Libra but Navamsa Moon is in Gemini, and nobody who knows me would accuse me of having a Libra Moon. Same with other charts I checked overall.
http://solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t ... ovien#p708

SteveS wrote:

Wayne wrote:
The best way to learn about noviles is to look at as many examples as you can find. As I pointed out in my first post they seem to be quite powerful, both on a personal and mundane level.

I believe you Wayne! I think I will start paying more attention to the noviles using them with ‘practical tests’ pertaining to Natal Charts, as the example Fagan offered in ‘Primer of Sidereal Astrology’. Fagan’s example which I will try to post later relies a-lot on sign/constellation placement of the novile Moon. I very seldom use sign/constellation interpretation in my astrological practice. I am deeply hooked on the verbs of astrology—the planets-- and their aspects applied to Jim’s guidelines in his book. I only have a handful of business clients who are not interested in probing deeper issues of their own psyches with sign/constellation delineation—they are only interested in the planetary symbolism of what’s going on NOW or TOMORROW. And as far as I am concerned, Solunars/Quotidians is by far the best system of astrology for offering reliable planetary symbolism for what’s going on, year to year, month to month, day to day, that describes how a native will experience their life at certain times—relative to his/her environment. But when it comes to Natal delineations and layered symbolism of our psychic-- sign/constellations is very important.

I do love studying all kinds of astrological/astronomical research. What I find most interesting about noviles is Fagan learned by studying the ancient Egyptian culture, the number that was attached to the Moon was the number 9. This becomes even more interesting when one of the 7 Principles of Hermetic Philosophy, the ‘Law of Vibration’ as it applies to ‘numbered vibration’ with the planets-- and somewhere way back in ancient history someone (some say Hermes) assigned a number to each of the 7 traditional planets. 3 to Saturn, 4 to Jupiter, 5 to Mars, 6 to the Sun, 7 to Venus, 8 to Mercury, and 9 to the Moon. When we square these numbers (9times9 for the Moon), numbered boxed squares are produced with a set order of numbers in the Square. Many writers have attributed the origins of these numbered squares to ancient Egypt. Each one of these ‘planetary squares’ have some interesting numeric sequences. For example when we square the number 6 which is the number of the Sun we get the number 36. The planetary square of the Sun has the following numbered sequences:

6/32/3/34/35/1
7/11/27/28/8/30
19/14/16/15/23/24
18/20/22/21/17/13
25/29/10/9/26/12
36/5/33/4/2/31

“Each planetary square has its characteristic numbers which, in the Sun square, are 111 (the sum of each vertical row of numbers, horizontal row of numbers, and diagonal row of numbers), and 666 (the sum of the numbers 1-36 contained in it). In other words, when we add each vertical row of numbers, horizontal row of numbers, and diagonal row of numbers—they add to be 111.” 6 X 111 = 666—the infamous number we find in Revelation 13. This same numeric sequencing is applied to the other planetary squares where we find “seven orders of squares and their planetary associations. The smallest consists of 1-9 and the largest 1-81 (Moon), so arranged that the sum of numbers in each row, column and diagonal is the same”. These planetary squares can also be given geometric expression which the ancients used in building the Gothic Cathedrals.

The more I study and experience astrology, the more it strikes me how important the ‘four moons’ of Sidereal Astrology are—so without any experience with noviens—it stands to reason to me—the noviens are very important. Matthew Quelles who learned and mastered much of Fagan’s teachings, and who is a member of this forum, taught me many moons ago how important the Moon(s) are in Sidereal Astrology. Jim teaches in his book that the Solar Moon can at times completely dominate the theme of a Solar year and at times it indeed does—so when you tell me the novien is important in your astrological work—I believe and understand.

Regards, Steve

Jim Eshelman wrote:The fastest way to track the Novile series - what amount to conjunctions, oppositions, and squares in the Navamsa or Novien chart - is to look for any 10° multiples. If you give these an orb of about 40', this works out to a 6° orb in the Navamsa/Novien. You can sight-read these.

For example, organizing the planets of my natal chart on a 10°-multiple based sort, I get:

1°20' Libra - Neptune
1°53' Scorpio - Venus
2°06' Leo - Pluto
22°28 Virgo - Sun
3°20' Cancer - Uranus
3°37' Cancer - Jupiter
14°57' Libra - Saturn
17°20' Libra - Mercury
27°24' Aquarius - Moon
28°55' Sagittarius - Mars

Though you can probably sight-read this list, I'll show it again with signs and leading digits dropped off:

1°20' Neptune
1°53' Venus
2°06' Pluto
2°28 Sun
3°20' Uranus
3°37' Jupiter
4°57' Saturn
7°20' Mercury
7°24' Moon
8°55' Mars

Besides the aspects we would see in the natus normally, this brings out Venus-Neptune (33'; it's a semi-sextile anyway), Sun-Venus (35'), Sun-Pluto (22'), and Moon-Mercury (4') aspects.

SteveS wrote:I have no experience with Vedic Astrology. Do Vedic Astrologers use the Navamsa or Novien charts to check for aspects that would explain hidden symbolism –not explained by the Natal Chart? I like Fagan can see where this would be of practical use. By looking at the symbolism of the chart example Fagan used—I can also see where these novile charts could be of use to check for a possible dubious character of a Native. It seems I recall reading somewhere that Hitler’s Natal chart did not solidly reveal the symbolism of the life he led. Does anyone have Hitler’s birth time?

Regards, Steve

Jim Eshelman wrote:

SteveS wrote:I have no experience with Vedic Astrology. Do Vedic Astrologers use the Navamsa or Novien charts to check for aspects that would explain hidden symbolism –not explained by the Natal Chart? I like Fagan can see where this would be of practical use. By looking at the symbolism of the chart example Fagan used—I can also see where these novile charts could be of use to check for a possible dubious character of a Native. It seems I recall reading somewhere that Hitler’s Natal chart did not solidly reveal the symbolism of the life he led. Does anyone have Hitler’s birth time?

Hindu astrologers use the Navamsa as a full second horoscope. Yes, they look for aspects, though they are measuring these in the alternative way that Hindu astrology measures aspects.

On Hitler - I think that his natal chart is one of the remarkable examples of astrology working clearly and lucidly. I've never felt it came up short. The fact that his Navamsa produces a close Sun-Neptune square (the natal semi-sextile) and brings the Moon more squarely in relationship with his Venus-Mars conjunction is "a little extra," icing on the cake, etc.

DDonovanKinsolving wrote:One day, I bothered to look up "vernier" in a dictionary. This was the perfect word for Fagan's intentions, it turns out. Fagan used noviens/navamsas as an "aspectarian" as long as the aspect was also within signs (that's the "vernier" part). A novien could be within orb by sight yet ineffective if the novienic equivalent was out-of-sign, so it's essential to double-check.

I have never followed up on the novien/navamsa matter, but have indeed noted the occasional clustering of 10-degree placements at significant events such as (I think) the Bhopal, India chemical disaster of the 1980s.

SteveS wrote:Webster’s dictionary, vernier: “French mathematician. Also vernier scale. A short scale made to slide along the division of a graduated instrument to indicate a part of a division, used in making very accurate measurements.”

Steve

SteveS wrote:Here is Fagan’s ‘Primer’ Chart example (without the novienic sign placements) when converting the Natal Chart (Sadistic Murderer) to the ‘Novienic Equivalent’ of ONLY aspects to the 9th harmonic Moon.

Fagan states including the novienic sign placement:
It is submitted that the novienic Moon in Pisces square aspect to the natal Sun, and to the novienic Pluto, Saturn and Uranus in Sagittarius, and to the novien Mars in Gemini adequately and perfectly portrays the stated character and disposition of the native.

Personally, I think the 9th harmonic Moon placed in the constellation of Scorpio offers more accurate symbolism (but this is only one example) than the novienic Moon placed in Pisces. But nonetheless, the 9th harmonic aspects of the Moon speak for themselves.

Steve

Jim Eshelman wrote:I find myself at odds with Fagan on this example.

For one thing, I think the Novien-Navamsa issue is best evaluated by examining the Novien-Navamsa in and of itself, rather than in relation to the natus. This isn't a comment on whether aspects back to the natus are valid, only a statement that we reduce the variables and have a cleaner test, which is especially important in something so subjective.

In particular, one of the best things we have for comparison is the matter of the Novien vs. Navamsa Moon sign. That's a big deal! Secondly, we have the aspects internal to the Novien-Navamsa.

Since we are already adding a whole new chart on top o the nativity (which, by itself, pretty reliably tells us everything we need to know most of the time), I think we have to err toward prudence rather than excess in the comparison.

Let's take the chart you offered, of sadistic murderer Ian Brady. Here's the nativity:



The underlying question is: "Could we tell from this horoscope that the native would become a sadistic murderer?" The answer, of course, is no - one can never tell that kind of outcome. We at least have to shift the question to, "Is this horoscope strongly consistent with the possibility that the individual would become a sadistic murderer?"

Let's start with luminary signs. He's a double Sagittarius. Sagittarius Moons, in particular, have numerous examples of people who are into weapons and hurting others. That is, it includes significant military leaders, murderers, and extreme sadists. Every Sagittarius Moon isn't going to lean this way (though they will have some variation of the same underlying theme in their psyches); but any collection of celebrity murderers will have a disproportionately great number of Sagittarius Moons. (Just from the charts I happen to have on Solar Fire at the moment, we can add Mark David Chapman, Adolf Hitler, Adolf Eichman, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Crown Prince Albert Victor (who is probably the best candidate for Jack the Ripper).)

Uranus is rising (less than 2° in mundo), which doesn't tell us much. The background Sun is closely sextile Mars and trine the Uranus (so there is at least ego-overcompensation joined with a tendency to use Mars and Uranus as an outlet or compensation). The Moon is closely trined Neptune which, in even the best of cases, leaves one a little unhinged and needing extreme emotional drama. The Mercury-Venus exact conjunction in Sagittarius is hardly a murderer's aspect, though it does give the ingratiation and "nice boy next door" temperament common to most rapists.

However, the most extreme aspects of murderers per se are not present. I'm not satisfied that this chart is obviously that of a murderer. What I am satisfied with is its tendency to show a deep disturbance of sexual aspects of the psyche (some details I haven't mentioned and are probably best not detailed) and a sense that, if life-conditions pushed him far enough, sadistic violence was likely to be the outcome.

We could add a few details from midpoints and planetary nodes, and they would modestly reinforce the same general direction, but wouldn't "tip the chart over the edge."

So let's look at the Navamsa chart:



The Moon is in Scorpio. Not every Scorpio Moon is either a sadist or a murderer, but Scorpio Moons do tend to sadism (usually of a safe variety within "conventional" bounds - meaning, nobody gets seriously hurt!). Linking the psycho-sexual nature especially to Scorpio (in addition to what was shown in the natus) starts us down a more particular track in this case. And that Moon is square Mars, Saturn, Uranus, and Pluto! This is quite enough by itself to show tendencies to sexual aberrations taking an especially violent turn. The Mars aspects to Saturn and Pluto (anchored by the square of the Moon) are especially telling. - Add a Sun-Neptune square, and this is very much the chart we would expect for Brady!

This is the level at which I think the Navamsa usually should be examined. If it legitimately criss-crosses back to the rasi (natus), that's another matter, and on that I remain undecided. It's always preferable to limit factors used to what is sufficient; otherwise, we start looking like Tropicalists!

But... just for the heck of it... in Brady's case, his vargotama Mars is in the same degree in both charts. (This happens with any planet at 15° Hub.) It's worth a mention.

SteveS wrote:

Jim wrote:
I find myself at odds with Fagan on this example.

Jim, I know of no other astrologer who has tested the many systems of astrology than you. Since I have not tested this Novien Fagan example with other natal’s of sadistic murderers, I trust your judgement for being at odds on this Fagan example. I may only (on rare occasions) refer to this Novien Fagan example if I run into a situation where the symbolism of the Natal chart does not explain the main character traits of someone's life.

Jim wrote:
It's always preferable to limit factors used to what is sufficient; otherwise, we start looking like Tropicalists!

I have always felt if the Tropical astrologer spent as much time studying the astrological ‘factors’ of Sidereal Astrology as they have the astrological factors of Tropical Astrology—they would discover astrologically-- what is truly ‘sufficient’. But the only reason I can make this statement is because I have spent an equal amount of time (over 30 years) of studying both the ‘factors’ of Tropical & Sidereal Astrology. I spent 15 years studying the ‘factors’ of Tropical Astrology before I discovered the ‘factors’ of Sidereal Astrology.

BTW, Fagan devoted 8 pages to ‘The Novien’ in his book ‘Primer of Sidereal Astrology’. Contained in these pages is some of the best explanations I have ever read, offering sound historical reckonings how ‘the tropical versions of the zodiacs were all conceived and born in ERROR.’

Regards, Steve

Jim Eshelman wrote:

robotron wrote:As far as I can tell the way Indian astrology uses aspects is more in line with Fagan's idea that it's the planets and not the aspects that matter. It uses the ancient idea of seeing aspects as the "gaze" of the planet, and they can therefore be one-directional too.

Yes, I agree that's the Indian approach. Experience has shown in many places that, while the Hindu system has preserved some amazing technical details, they often don't have the most effective ways of using them. In any case, it's a fair question to see whether what we know about the rest of astrology works in the context of this technique also.

(In my view there is a certain intellectual dishonesty among siderealists in changing the zodiac but still using the techniques that have been developed with a tropical zodiac such as transits and progressions. Perhaps there is some cultural prejudice about the Indian system too, but on the other hand some indians seem to be rejecting their standard astrology as being too "Greek".)

I hear your point of view and disagree. I think, on the contrary, it is intellectual honesty. That is, Fagan, Bradley et al. are best marked not by a zodiac but by a spirit of pursuing what, in fact, actually works. The Sidereal zodiac isn't of Indian origin - it migrated there - and the most common Sidereal techniques are actually of Western (or Fertile Crescent) origin.

Arena wrote:I've seen that some people seem to use angles of the Novien chart, but some don't.

IF angles are used in Novien charts, then birth time needs to be very accurate. But that also means logically, that Novien charts should also be relocated when people move.

Jim Eshelman wrote:

Arena wrote:IF angles are used in Novien charts, then birth time needs to be very accurate. But that also means logically, that Novien charts should also be relocated when people move.

I like the capitalization on IF It's indeed a "big if."

Underneath all of this, I think we have to keep in mind a primary goal of finding the fewest factors that are sufficient to tell the story. Not only is astrology easier that way, but it is the only thing that saves us from "you can prove anything" syndrome.

The biggest value of Noviens/Navamsas to the Sidereal astrologer is that they highlight aspects that, anecdotally, easily demonstrate their value. The practical question is whether not so much whether these are valid and expressive, but whether they are necessary. The answers seem quite vividly to be Yes to the first question and probably No to the second, except in specialized investigations, but we keep looking because the microaspects are so vivid.

However, using Nov/Nav at all puts us in the place of adding an entirely new chart to the birth chart, and that opens the door wide to "you can prove anything" syndrome. If one takes aspects between Nov/Nav and the natus, one is close to tripling the available factors. Toss in angles (which theoretically shouldn't have any aspectual value unless, by some magic, this isn't really a subtle aspectarian but is some form of actual alternative chart), and then you start relocating them... we're on the cusp, next, of adding a hundred asteroids

That's the theory part - one might almost say the sociological part of forging a community of Sidereal-thinking astrologers - and then, of course, one needs the practical part. Standing tall on one silly example <vbg>, I note that my local Navamsa Ascendant for Los Angeles squares Saturn, which is about as far as one can get from my life-turn since I came to Los Angeles. Of all the planets that would hallmark the reinvention of my life (marked by bringing my Venus exactly to an angle, Pluto more widely, and adding that Sun-Jupiter-Uranus paran), Saturn is probably the least expressive. (I could make some kind of case for every other planet.)

Arena wrote:Yes that is why I capitalize it, I know it is indeed a big IF.

I agree that sometimes astrologers go too far into having so many and in my opinion too many things to prove their points.
I like it more simplistic, probably because I believe the truth should be seen with the core simplistic.
I've never thought much of the harmonic charts. But I came back to this subject because of what people are saying about some artist's chart, but also what Steve showed me about my partner's chart. But I think that was not his Novien, but rather his 13th harmonic where his Mercury is right on the ASC if I remember correctly. But I've also considered that his chart might just be one hour off, because that would explain so so very much to me I will never ever give up the thought that he is governed by Mercury (he has now been accepted to his second master's degree in guess what - Data science!)