Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

Venus_Daily wrote:Born November 2nd 1755
I came across a birthtime for 8:30 PM in Vienna Austria, but I don't think that is too reliable because it has Mars exactly rising, and Marie did not seem like the Martian type.
The most important configuration Marie had was a Sun/Venus conjunction square Neptune, and trine Uranus.
The conjunction being in Libra obviously stengthened her Venusian ties nicely. These 4 major planets in combination made Marie somewhat of an enigmatic artistic goddess, and sadly, contributed to her unjustified downfall in 1793!

Jim Eshelman wrote:7:30 pm is the best data AFAIK. It from a biography by Annunziata Asquith.

A birth time of 8 pm has often been floated, including one 8 pm chart cast by an unidentified astrologer of that period. I'd go with 7:30 or maybe 7:45 as a starting point, and check it against such things as her execution.

What was the source of the time you found?

Venus_Daily wrote:It was just a random website I believe, chronicling her life.

Jim Eshelman wrote:Starting with the 7:30 PM time, we find she has a Libra Sun and the Moon in the last degree of Virgo: Her vanity and naivete are reflected well enough in this. With the Virgo Moon she shares an archetype with another great historic woman of France, Joan of Arc who, however, had a Capricorn Sun. A Gemini Ascendant is consistent with her public image of superficiality.

Marie was born at Pluto's setting. For the 7:30 PM time, Pluto is 3°34' below the horizon in mundo. (Relocating this chart to Paris puts Pluto abouit 5° above the horizon. A slightly later time would have put Pluto exactly setting at her birth for Paris, but that's not enough for a rectification!

Yes, her background Sun-Venus conjunction in Libra, square Neptune and trine Uranus, forms the biggest configuration pattern in the chart. The Moon is also in close square to Saturn (and wider square to Mars). Again, all of these luminary activities are background.

Let's examine her death by execution (behedding).

TRANSITS. Mars would have been on her IC if her birthtime were 10-15 minutes later. It was just barely within orb of semisquare to natal Moon. Sun squared natal Saturn. It was neither a pleasant nor dignified day. But that's about all that can be said.

SECONDARY PROGRESSIONS. A very minor aspect - p. Mars quincunx p. Pluto 25' - is the most severe among the progressions alone. There is a progressed Mercury-Saturn sextile. Progressed Mars, however, had returned to within 1° of its natal placement. For Paris, this birthtime almost places p. Saturn within 1° of the Descendant - only a couple of minutes later would make it exact.

SLR. Her final lunar return occured October 5, 1793, at 9:52 PM LMT in Paris. It has natal Mars somewhat near the Ascendant and natal Uranus on the Midheaven (partile both zodiacally and in RA). I'm disturbed that no transiting planets mark the foreground.

SSR. Her final SSR was almost a year earlier, on November 1, 1792, at 6:20 AM. It was surely a stressful, anxious year. The chart is mixed: A Sun-Mercury-Jupiter conjunction on natal Sun-Venus, square natal Neptune, all right on the angbles. Transiting Neptune was also near the Ascendant, opposite t. Saturn a big below the Descendant.

That SSR Saturn-Neptune opposition was along the Meridian at the time of her execution - which, however, it had been every day since her prior birthday. Transiting Pluto at her execution opposed SSR Uranus, which isn't very personal. This is luke-warm at best.

KLR. She was killed the day of her Kinetic Lunar Return. This chart is the best of the bunch (thugh still not what I'd like to see). Natal Neptune rising. Transiting Sun-Mercury (and a little Neptune) on the IC. Natal Saturn is distantly implicated in all of this.

I haven't time to run the Qs tonight, but will try to do that soon.

Jim Eshelman wrote:SNQ (Q2).
For the 7:30 PM birth time, the Sidereal Natal Quotidian (Q2 variation) had MC 18 AQU 28, Asc 18 GEM 25.

Progressed Mars was 7° below the Ascendant in longitude, but only 1°24' below mundanely (it rose with 20 GEM 48). OTOH, natal Mars, which was in partile conjunction with progressed Mars, didn't rise until 23 GEM 44. Either of these on the angle would have been a striking (ohh!) placement for her date with the guillotine.

Progressed Uranus was at 20 AQU 12, and crossed the MC mundanely when it was 20 AQU 22. Increasing the birth time about 9 minutes would bring p. Uranus to 20' past the MC and p. Mars 19' before the Ascendant. This gives a strong initial suggestion of a birthtime of 7:39 PM. (Natal and progressed Uranuses were only 1' apart, while natal and progressed Marses were in partile conjunction, 47' apart.)

No transiting planets take a part in this.


SNQ (Q1).
For the 7:30 PM birth time, the Sidereal Natal Quotidian (Q1 variation) had MC 9 CAP 51, Asc 9 TAU 9.

Progressed Mercury is within a degree of the Descendant in mundo, but 4° away by longitude. T. Jupiter at 10 SCO 23 is just a little above the Descendant in longitude, and set mundanely with 11 SCO 35. This is a completely wrong symbolism, and it would have been even closer (mundanely) for the 7:39 time (Q1 Dsc 12 SCO 17). OTOH, a birthtime just slightly (7:43) later would have brought t. Mars (13 LEO 45) to the Nadir and missed the Jupiter. This time would also still have a Q2 with progressed Mars only a few minutes from the Ascendant, though p. Uranus would have been out of orb.

Perhaps a time of 7:42 PM has the "best fit so far."


SQ.
For the 7:30 PM birth time, the Solar Quotidian had MC 7 CAN 28, Asc 1 LIB 01.

The closest SSR planet to one of these angles (for the 7:30 birthtime or later; we aren't considering earlier) is s. Neptune in partile square to the MC. T. Sun at 1 LIB 01 is exactly on the Ascendant. If anything, a weak case can be made that the 7:30 time is, itself, exactly right; but it's a weak case. Nothing else that seems relevant is anywhere near the SQ angles.


PSSR.
For the 7:30 PM birth time, the Progressed Sidereal Solar Return had MC 8 LIB 46, Asc 6 SAG 57.

This chart has some startling contacts, but only if we accept a birthtime slightly earlier than the given time. This seems unlikely, since all of the variant reported times are later than 7:30. But... let's see where this takes us.

PSSR Neptune at 8 LIB 11 is partile conjunct the MC (only 4' away in mundo). PSSR Saturn 5 ARI 51 is about 3° from the IC, and would be conjunct it for a birth time 7 minutes earlier. PSSR Mars at 4 SAG 56 is rising exactly (8' from the Ascendant in mundo), so that very precise (4') paran of SSR Mars-Neptune is precisely on the angles. This is as good as we got for the SNQ2 (though that one required a birth time several minutes later - we don't get the two sets of symbolism with the same birth time).

Oh, and PSSR Moon is only a hair more than a degree from the Descendant.


Preliminary Conclusion.
So here's what we have: The two most reliable quotidians are the SNQ2 and the PSSR. The SNQ (supported a little by the Q1 variant) has perfect "sudden-strike violence" planets on an angle for a birth time several minutes after the reporte time, though it only involves natal and progressed planets - internal phenomena. The PSSR (supported somewhat by the SQ) has highly malicious planets right to the angle for the exact stated birth time, and these are planets from the SSR - that is, transitting, or "coming in from the outside," planets.

It's hard to consider adjusting a reported birth time for one system when the other system speaks so eloquently. In this case, the Q-chart that supports the given birth time has even better symbolism. (The SNQ would be describing primarily internal/psychological phenomena, things arising inherentlg from her original nature and its intrinsic development. The PSSR shows that the outside world was involved in killing her.)

I'm inclined to accept the 7:30 PM birth time on a tentative basis... and now to test it with one more event, the earlier execution of her husband King Louis.

Jim Eshelman wrote:Louis was killed on January 21, 1793. I don't have a time, but I'm using noon.

Using the 7:30 PM time for Marie, let's look at the basics.


TRANSITS.
t. Uranus semisquare r. Jupiter (46' sep.)
t. Venus conj. r. Uranus (6' ap.)
t. Mercury square r. Jupiter (52' ap.)

I don't know the circumstances surrounding this event. Did she know at the time? Were they imprisoned together? Or did she learn later? The Venus transit is quite bizarre (not necessarily wrong, just very bizarre, with various ways of reading it).

BTW, for the people of France, this was a quite remarkable date. There was a t. Uranus-Pluto opposition within 2' of exact! - it was the climax of the revolution. (Mercury was 45/135 from them). There was also a partile Sun-Neptune square (2' wide at noon), so there was great emotional commotion, even madness, in the air. Mars was still within a degree of square Jupiter, not a good aspect for kings. If the execution were at or near noon (when it seems they scheduled these) there was a Moon-Jupiter opposition across the horizon at Paris. Overall, it must have been quite the party! The recent Capsolar had a mix of planets on the angles, including Sun, Saturn, and Jupiter (with a touch of Neptune). The January 12 CAplunar was an exact New Moon rising, Jupiter at the Midheaven, and Mars on the Eastpoint (closely atop the Uranus-Pluto opposition). From the point of view of the populace it was a time of great success, new starts, and the climactic overthrow of the king. It's one of the best Caplunar examples I've seen.


SECONDARY PROGRESSIONS.
This is the event for which Marie had the exact progressed Moon-Uranus conjunction (only 16' wide). Additionally, p. Mars was back within partile orb of natal Mars and p. Uranus was 1' from natal Uranus. (These defined the whole year.) Natal Saturn set at 1 CAP 46, and p. Ascendant had just moved within a degree of that, at 0 CAN 47.

SSR.
This is the same chart we saw before: they both died in her same SSR year. Two Neptunes on an angle, Sun-Mercury-Jupiter rising on natal Sun-Venus-Neptune. - There were no transits to her SSR for Louie's execution.


SLR.
Her January 5 SLR had natal Jupiter rising, squared by Mercury. But her more recent Demi-SLR of January 18 had Saturn only three degrees above the Ascendant in mundo, less than 2° from square natal Saturn near the MC (about 4° in RA). Her natal Sun-Venus (squared by her Neptune) straddled the Descendant closelty. Her natal Moon was right on the WP, with natal Mars near the IC (about 3° in RA, meaning it was exactly paran the rising t. Saturn).

Overall, a suitable chart for the tragic event of her husband's death.

In fact, it's worth including the Mundoscope of this Demi-SLR. On its own, without adding the natal planets to the inner ring (though they were also a fit, and part of the pattern), look at this chart for the execution of her husband (with all the implications for what that meant for her life as well).

MarieDSLRmundo.JPG

KLR
The Kinetic Lunar Retuyrn occurred January 15. Progressed Saturn and Mars were across the horizon, with t. Sun just above the Descendant, partile conjunct progressed Saturn. (Natal Saturn is even closer to the angle.) Not the best chart we've seen, but entirely consistent with the event.

QUOTIDIANS.
The SNQ (Q2) had p. Sun and Pluto conjoine in RA on the IC. Here are the numbers:
p. Pluto 255°49'
SNQ IC 256°28'
p. Sun 256°37'

The SNQ (Q1) had r. and p. Neptune barely within a degree of the MC, natal Venus on the IC. (In longitude, they wer 16' apart, but in RA they were 0' apart!) - T. Pluto looked to be close to the Descendant, but was not partile in longitude and was many degrees away in mundo. - This chart seems to show the sentimental-romantic emotional tone, whereas the Q2 showed existential confrontation and ultimate separation from her husband.

The SQ had no precision hits.

The PSSR had r. Venus on the Zenith and r. Neptune setting partile. This is much like the SNQ1 in that sense. - SSR Jupiter was also on the Zenith (part of a triple Sun-Mercury-Jupiter trio that was closer to the angle the night before, though still a bit in range the morning after).


CONCLUSION.
I am quite happy with the 7:30 PM time from her biographer.

Jim Eshelman wrote:Here, then, is the likely correct birth chart for Marie Antoinette. Pluto is the only planet that falls in the immediate foreground. The Sun and Venus fall in the immediate background.