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Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:46 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Feb 15, 2013 8:05 pm
Venus_Daily wrote:I was just wondering, do you interpret converse the same way you do SLRs and SSRs?
How effective are they compared to regular returns, I know that this might just be redundancy, but I'm just at some teqniques to play with
Thank You
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:47 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Freya wrote:sorry Venus, what are converse returns? I have never come across this term before. Do you mean Converse progressions? I have heard of those mentioned in celestial Philosophy by Worsdale
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:47 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Jim Eshelman wrote:Converse returns are returns calculated using converse transits. I don't have a clear idea concerning their efficacy. I recall that Alexander Marr had great confidence in them.
Yes, interpret them the same way.
Perhaps you could do a pilot study and share it with us, Venus?
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:48 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Venus_Daily wrote:Don't Mind if I do, Birth Data September 4th 1984 Kingsville, Texas-11:44 pm
Event, I know that I use this a lot, but this is during the time I met my ex- fiance, I use it because it's very important to me, and the subject is very narrow, romance, parternering up ect.
My Converse return for September 2002, corresponds to September 4th 1966, very accurate I would say. Natal Venus is exactly rising, Moon and Neptune are conjunct the nodes, obvious forming an opposition. (as well, the moon is exactly opposite my natal moon/sun midpoint, I have a few good midpoints form 19-30 libra) The Midpoint was too activated when I actually met my Ex on September 29th 2002.
Natal Venus is 10'22 in Virgo, and that occurs for the next two years, only with natal Venus exactly on the MC, and Natal Moon exactly on the DSC, untill 2005 when Venus is on the on the MC, but somewhat looser, and even looser until it dissapeared in 2008.(it was over in 2008)
Here's the inagural chart, Jim, you can look them up if you wish form 2002-2007 or 2008(anyone else can too), the charts have appropriate converse transiting planets to go along with the natal planets.
It's very odd, scientists would have a field day with something like this and how it relates to time running in a linear(foward) manner. The charts after 2008, I just can't relate, it's like the energy just split up into different directions, I wonder if it has anything to do with my Mars/Neptune progression, or maybe life is just happening to me in a more balanced, healthy way......who knows, but the evidence is very striking!
The Converses do not seem to work with the kinetics, or any kind of solar progression, maybe Solar Fire is just not calculating them the way they should be calculated.
What seems to have promted this entire situation was cNeptune over my Venus/Jupiter midpoint...
P.S. The lunar return is simply amazing too for Sep 29th 2002, Natal Moon/Sun midpoint is rising(exactly), with cTransiting Venus on the MC, exactly squaring the midpoint, Neptune is too rising obviously still on Venus/Jupiter midpoint.....Amazing.
-Maria
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:51 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Freya wrote:One could argue that converse returns are not accurate for everybody if you believe in reincarnation (which I do). I have heard of cases in India, where children have been born 20 days after their last death as adults. Their converse return chart would be calculated for days when they were still alive in another body, and subject to the chart of that body. I don't think converse progressions can apply to everyone, but that's only my opinion
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:52 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Jim Eshelman wrote:The theory wouldn't exclude that, though IMHO. The theory of converse transits is simply converse progressions at a day-for-day rate. Converse returns occur within that framework. It's more like time rippling out in multiple directions from the birth moment.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:53 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Freya wrote:Venus....I also have Kepler so I could calculate that for you if you wish. It does do converse progressions, I am not sure whether it does converse returns. WHich of these options should I choose? It is not clear which one calculates a converse return
expired
Jim....can converse returns be considered like solar returns, but backwards?
There is still something about them that doesn't quite add up IMO
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:55 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Jim Eshelman wrote:The theory is that they are a concurrent and overlapping solar return. Thus, the 59th year of life would be described by the SSR 58 years after birth, and also by the SSR 58 years before birth.
As mentioned before, I have no certainty on their efficacy.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:56 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Venus_Daily wrote:just to be curious, I know that you have to use them over a certain number of cases, but just for my examples, how would you grade them, if you don't mind me asking Jim.
It's very odd that they would be accurate from the time my relationship began, to the time when it started to fall apart.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:57 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Freya wrote:Jim Eshelman wrote:The theory is that they are a concurrent and overlapping solar return. Thus, the 59th year of life would be described by the SSR 58 years after birth, and also by the SSR 58 years before birth.
As mentioned before, I have no certainty on their efficacy.
Ok, so they cannot be calculated with any of the options listed in the image I posted... I might as well calculate them manually
Jim, would you use any of the converse progressions listed on kepler?
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Venus_Daily wrote:I wish I knew, I don't use Kepler
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:59 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Freya wrote:I wish I knew too, I would start checking events with the right converse progressed calculation and compare them to secondary progressions
what strikes me about converse charts is that they must relate more to past life karmic events and their repercussions in the present life because they cannot take into consideration actions in the present life that affect the future as they are backwards in time
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Venus_Daily wrote:Brilliant Freya, I wonder if the charts for my relationship of an indicator of past karmic lessons, or maybe the events were so strong they were able to reflect in the past and the future at the same time.
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Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:01 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Jim Eshelman wrote:I don't know or use Kepler.
On karmic indications... I think we must be careful with this interpretation. I think the error is in thinking that these are "in the past." At least, that makes no sense to me. I think the operational theory is more like: From the moment of birth, time moves in many directions at once, two of which are forward and backward; and that both of these are experienced as we move forward. Or, possibly, that time "backward" from birth mirrors time moving forward - that our birth makes us ceter of the universe not only in space but also in time. Time flows out identically in all directions, and we move through it in concentric circles.
At least, that's what it seems to me the theory would be.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:13 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Freya wrote:It is food for thought
would it make sense to compare the secondary progressed solar return with the converse solar return, just like the natal chart is compared to the solar return?
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Venus_Daily wrote:Just to see if they reflect eachother that's probably it, from my example they were reflective of eachother for a few years, I have some other charts that are reflective of eachother, but nothing like this example.
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Freya wrote:did you ever compare three charts at once; converse-natal-progressed?
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Venus_Daily wrote:of course, converse to natal, but not progressed yet
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Jim Eshelman wrote:Venus_Daily wrote:Jim, I was wondering, are you going to observe the converse phenomena yourself
I may take some time to look here and there. Mostly I'm not interested, except in the most theoretical sense. If I have a block of time I could run the converse SLRs for my standard 20 test events.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:14 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Venus_Daily wrote:I just wanted to note that when using converse transiting, at least in my test from 2002-2008, c.Tr planets seem to be activing natal midpoints in Demi, and Solar Returns....very odd.(more so than when compared to future or current Demi/Solar SSRs
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:15 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Jim Eshelman wrote:I just ran CSLRs for my 20 standared test charts. The results, while not quite as good as standard SLRs, were quite good.
To be clear about technique: I calculated ONLY the full Converse SLR in effect at the date or time of the event. No Demi's, no rounding the corner. I rated these on a 5-point scale, where 3 is neither good nor bad, 4 is a clear hit, 5 is essentially perfect, 2 is discernibly contrary to the expected symbolism, and 1 is strikingly contrary to the expected symbolism. I allowed myself to give half-points.
I then made one exception: After noticing that the two worst charts (activelty contrary to the symbolism expected) were JFK's assasination and John Lennon's murder, I looked closer and found two interesting facts:
1. Lennon's murder occurred within a few hours of a new CSLR. I used the one that was about to set up, and it was an essentially perfect chart. I substituted this one, moving the score from 1to 5. (SLRs routinely show up to a day "early.")
2. JFK's Dallas CSLR was very poor - score of 1. But relocated the Washington, where it set up, it is a quite accurate chart. However, I didn't allow myself to count that Washington chart, and scored him 1 for Dallas.
Net effect: Out of the 20 charts, the average scorte was 4.2, meaning that there was a little better (on average) than a "clear hit." That's pretty good.
The one way I'll "give the technique a break" for the JFK chart is to use an accepted statistical technique of dropping out the single worst and single best score. This raises the score only slightly to 4.3.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:16 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Freya wrote:Jim, did you compare just the converse or natal-converse or progressed solar and converse?
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Jim Eshelman wrote:Freya wrote:Jim, did you compare just the converse or natal-converse or progressed solar and converse?
I think I must have been insufficiently clear in my prior description of what I did. I assumed people would under stand certain standards, and therefore didn't state them.
A Lunar Return considers
only the natal and transiting planets.
A Converse Lunar Return considers only the natal and (converse) transiting planets.
As indicated in the original post, only CSLRs were considered. Therefore, nothing about progressions, solar returns, or anything else was in the picture.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:21 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Jim Eshelman wrote:Freya wrote:thank you Jim. Do you think Converse lunar return are more accurate than converse solar?
I haven't looked.
If you want a speculation, I would say this: Because a solar return has to cover a whole year, it is usually far less pointed and specific than a lunar return. Although it's highlly responsive to transits etc., by itself it is not as likely to pinpoint exact events kn the way that the SLR can. I would expect the same relationship from converse returns.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:21 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Venus_Daily wrote:I am very glad that you took the time to look over the converse returns Jim, I know that you don't place too much emphasis on midpoints, (I know you have to test more charts to come to a conclusion), but it seems as though the midpoints(Ctr to Natal) in the converse are much more poignant when compared to the regular SSRS, could it be just a coincidence, or could there be a real pattern.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:24 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Venus_Daily wrote:Super Update, Today, I had it out with my aunt, things have been brewing for a while now, but, there was something different today. I just wanted to beat my aunt with a boulder, we've always been like this, I thought we had moved past it, but obviously not. I have Moon Opposite Mars in the Solar, and Mars cnj Node, it was Mars conjunct node that triggered something, it passed over the MC today, actually it was the node, Mars is more than a degree away from the MC. The kinetic solar Moon will be opposite this conjunction all next month, and I feel as though I need to be gone for the entire month. I hate the way these situations make me feel, anger has never been good for me.
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SteveS wrote:Venus wrote:
anger has never been good for me.
I can relate to this having a partile 135 Moon-Mars aspect in my Natal.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:57 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Venus_Daily wrote:I have a Neptune Venus opp comming up, but it's been on the MC before, now it will be on the ASC. Hope it manifests something besides a romantic movie
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Venus_Daily wrote:In the secondary qudition chart, with say, Moon on the MC and Venus on the DSC, even if they're not mundanely on the angles, does it count if they are still on the angles through the zodiac. Does it produce a similar effect to the paran(they're not aspecting eachother through out the zodiac either, they're just both on the angles at the same time
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:58 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Jim Eshelman wrote:When I did a few months of a Quotidian project here on the forum late last year, I was surprised to find that - when there was a difference - it was the zodiacal contacts that were accurate, not the mundane. The conclusion I would draw from the information presently available to me is that quotidians are sensitive solely to zodiacal contacts.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:00 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Venus_Daily wrote:One More question, I've been healthier the past few year, Moon Mars in both returns is symbolic of inflamtory diseases such as hypertension, and sever inflimation, which I have had, but this has been the most positive year I have encountered despite having Saturn on the cnj Plut(lots of hard work) Anyway, Next year, I'll have moon cnj solar sun in both Solar Returns, which is obviously symbolic of something. I just got word from my doctor that after going down, a hormone that my body has been producing is back up, and not responding to typical treatments like radiation. Anyway, he's given me the choice of whether or not to pull the defective thing out(pituitary), or take invasive medication, and risk another tumor. What's horrible is that another tumor in this situation would not be bad, but I am the exception to the rule, these tumors are supposed to be benign, but mine was malignant, only a few cases have been documented. No tumors have been found as of yet, they just can't find the reason my body is producing this hormone, it can only be found in such large quantities from the pituitary. Sorry about too much of the sob story, but I was just wondering, under what transit would it be best to make a decision of this magnitude. Could the outcome of the decision be affected by the transit under which it is made?
As well, due to the rare nature of this disease, could it be possibly indicated in my birth chart by the cnj of Pluto to the Vertex?
-Maria
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:01 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
SteveS wrote:Venus wrote:
No tumors have been found as of yet.
Until they are found---not to worry.
Venus wrote:
As well, due to the rare nature of this disease, could it be possibly indicated in my birth chart by the conj of Pluto to the Vertex?
IMO, I see your related health problems with the unique nature of the disease being related to your partile Mars-Uranus conjunction which is in the foreground of your Natal Chart.
Venus wrote:
Next year, I'll have moon conj solar sun in both Solar Returns, which is obviously symbolic of something.
Indeed, and your next SSR sets up nicely with both benefics in the foreground—a very potent Venus. Could be one of the most benefic SSR of your life. Also, your angular Jupiter receives a partile 60 from SSR Moon and imo, this is foretelling an 'outstanding incident' pertaining to the symbolism of Moon-Jupiter, which is some of the best planetary symbolism one can encounter.
Re: Converse Returns
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:04 pm
by Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Jim Eshelman wrote:Venus_Daily wrote:how much of an impact do you believe the benifics have being afflicted, I know Jim does not give the zodiac position that much credit, just enough to color it. With Venus being in Virgo and Jup being in Gemini, I hope it's not afflicted too badly.
I'm just going to keep my fingers crossed, I hate the whole thing about immediate environment, because my immediate environment is sooo underwhelming and boring right now, which probably closes the doors to some posible manifestations.
I wouldn't call them
afflicted. (That should be saved for "bad aspects.") Even the older terms merely called them
debilited, a generic term for fall and detriment. They act "bad" only in the sense that they are operating in conditions at odds with their natures - which sometimes produces some interesting (including pleasant) circumstances!
Consider that Jupiter was in Gemini at the birth that giant of economic theory, John Maynard Keynes. (See how Gemini and Jupiter blended there?) Also at the birth of Rupert Murdoch and Ross Perot. Neither of them suffered badly in the Jupiter department. Neither did Coco Channel or Dontatella Versace; nor Heidi Fleiss (she experienced her wave of disgrace, but made a bundle and kept her friends in high places).
And I'd pay even less attention to the sign in a Solar Return. The effect is negligible.
Venus in Virgo in a
natal chart has a certain amount of social maladjustment - a form of "just not getting" what Venus is about. They tend to be more mental than somatic (e.g., succeeding as journalists but not as athletes). Among celebrities you get the like of Woody Allen, Lucille Ball, Chuck Berry - all being a bit "off" socially, though gigantically talented. Yet you also get the suave Maurice Chevalier and Sean Connery. Or somebody who was at the same time suave and gracious, and socially
outre and offbeat, like Oscar Wilde. Even when these are "off" and atypical to Venus, they aren't
bad - but they ARE terribly interesting.