Scorpio Secrecy, Hiding Weaknesses etc., Redux

[By Jove]

I brought up my friend who has a Virgo Sun, Scorpio Moon, and Gemini Mars partile square her Sun; who from now on will the anonymous R***. We had a huge night out with friends one night and I complained to her how exhausting it was for me to constantly be around people. She said it exhausted her too, which surprised me as she seems so aggressively extraverted, leading people around by the nose.

She said that she keeps her cards very close to her chest; she purposefully creates a ruse of superficiality so people won't probe into her. If she acted introverted and serious, like I usually do, this will make people suspect her of hiding something or having secret motives. No one investigates a person who obscufates stupidity.

I think her best and worst qualities are as follows, and most, if not all, are textbook Scorpio traits IMO.

Best
Very driven and strong willed. Her life was always fraught with disadvantages but she defeats them all. Always tries to be upbeat and positive. Keenly observant of society and people, easily sees through a person's deceptions, hypocrisies, and weaknesses, and knows how to tactically use her strength and knowledge against them. Large-hearted, friendly, will go out of her way to help someone in need. Intense emotions and strong passions. Her favorite phrase, "Look like an angel, act like the Devil."

Worst
Volatile and unstable emotions, easily flies off the handle. Very bossy, trying to push people to do what she wants them to do. Feels she always has to succeed and by hyper-competent to feel validated from other people. A massive drama queen who must always make everything about her. Very jealous and possessive of friends and lovers. Manipulative; uses people like tools all the time. Very guarded, always keeps her cards close to her chest. Goes out of her way to mask herself as a frivolous person so people won't bother to look into her or suspect her of dark motives.

[By Jove]

Now I let me bring up my Scorpio Sun, Capricorn Moon, Scorpio Mars friend; the anonymous M***. I did a chart reading of her before. She doesn't go so far out to mislead people about her true nature as R*** does but she is pretty guarded anyway. She spends a huge amount of time making a persona of herself as this sensitive, dark, dreamy, artistic person; and while I do think that is who she truly is deep down, she presents it in a very calculated manner. She either wants people to see her as the persona or wants to somehow transform into the persona, so the mask becomes the woman.

Unlike R***, her textbook Scorpio traits are much subtler. M*** is not aggressive or manipulative, but instead is stubborn and unyielding. She was raised in a Christian suburban house but could not assimilate into that culture. So she went, and still goes, on this quest to find her "true self" or a group she can feel home in. She first converted to Islam, which is probably the most offensive thing to a good American Christian family, then became an atheist, the next most offensive thing. Both groups were full of dogmas, so she divorced from both. Now she explores the Symbolist, Romantic, and Decadent artistic movements of the turn of the last century, and bases her life on such spiritual ideals.

Bascically, the Scorpio energy is turned inward, for better and worse. (The partile Saturn aspects and 4th house emphasis are at work here.) Her best qualities are her integrity and commitment towards this inner quest for a "life vision" (as Bradley may have put it). And her Ahimsa-like kindness and adroitness. Her worst qualities are she is self-destructive and she has emotional issues that are all over the place. In the end, I love this woman more than any other for all of who she is.

[By Jove]

Now for responses from the old thread, which I will paraphrase as the old thread was deleted.

Jim said:
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Scorpio Moons seem more secret prone. Scorpio Suns don't seem as self-conscious about their secretiveness; they don't let on there is a secret in the first place. But Scorpio Moons act like they are in a melodramatic Grade B spy movie, so the secretiveness just oozes out. I'm unsure if Scorpio Suns and Moons behave in such distinctive different ways, but it's true for quite a few people I know.

Scorpios know knowledge is power, and so their secrets are their battle armor. They are always battle ready, ready for any assault life throws at them so they may defend themselves and, if appropriate, retaliate.

I don't see Scorpio Suns creating a ruse of superficiality, as R*** does, but its pretty common for Scorpio Moons. Our culture still expects women, to some degree, to be silly, uneducated, and incapable, and Scorpio Moon women are quite willing to use that as camouflage.

TheScales_BothWays said:
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My Venus-Pluto wants me to relate to everyone, free from any restrictions, to intimately connect with someone on a deep level. But Scorpio luminaries never cooperate. It's frustrating.

JamesCondor said:
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Does R*** have any Saturn or Pluto in her chart?

My current response:
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R*** has her luminaries and Mars (the most major planets) aspect Saturn.

M*** has Moon and Venus aspect Saturn while her Mars is ruling in her Sun sign.

[By Jove]

I have a few examples from history that viewers may find interesting.

The Scorpio Moons include Nietzsche and Beethoven. Nietzsche the author is very provocative and controversial - that doesn't even touch how he wrote from many different perspectives; more like Nietzsche the many authors. Nietzsche the man however was described as polite, mild-mannered, and very cultured. Beethoven was described by a contemporary as having a "studied rudeness", which fits with a documentary; saying Beethoven believed from childhood that the world was a dangerous place and he could not trust people. Paranoia, jealousy, and distrust were parts of Beethoven's character. Even my old music professor (a Scorpio Sun) suspected if Beethoven, upon writing the 9th Symphony, was truly a lonely kid who wanted humanity to unite once more or was just trying to convince people he was a lonely kid who wanted humanity to unite once more.

The Scorpio Suns seem less dramatic but the same themes are present. Jonathan Swift was difficult to pin down by contemporaries and biographers. His latest biographer, Leo Damrosch, even called Swift a "man of mystery", saying most biographers got caught up in Swift's calculated projection, and not the real man. Swift even wrote many letters in code, for instance to his lover, full of blank dashes and alluding to sex as "coffee". (Yes, even 300 years ago, going out for coffee was code for sex. ) Lucky Luciano, the founder of modern organized crime in America, hid in plain sight for decades as a debonaire, cultured man of high society and successful businessman. In other words, "Look like an angel, act like the Devil." You see a similar persona of cultured gangster a little later with Frank Sinatra, the "dark star".

[Soft Alpaca]

I think too jove, that you have to look at the times of these natives births. If they are born in the day then there Scorpio Moons (even though I argue moon in Scorpio is ruled by Pluto) are ruled by Mars.

If they are born at night then there Scorpio Moons are ruled by Pluto (arguably ruling Scorpio altogether at night, my chart is a good example of this). Also if they were born at night then they are ruled by the Moon in their chart (and therefore ruled by Pluto as it rules the Moon in Scorpio and Scorpio at night) over their Sun (again you can argue, but people born at night seem to be ruled by their Moon sign).

This being said if their moon is above the Horizion line it's very in sect (as it's in the night sky of the native). You listed many Moon Scorpio musicians, I believe that these natives were either born at night, or if they were born during day and the Moon would be in the part of their chart that's below the horizon.

Intresting to see if my theory has any ligitmacy, being ruled by Moon Scorpio would be very very intresting.

{I'm ruled by Moon Leo, however I don't relate to leo moon as much as I do to Moon-Pluto, my only hard moon aspect, and Pluto is domicile and in Coven (like a Stellium but not technically Mercury-Pluto-Chiron-Venus), also moon in the 8th house adding more psychological darkness to it). I've always had a deep connection with music, I remember and have been told I could sing the chorus to American Pie at age 4}

[FlorencedeZ.]

If they are born at night then there Scorpio Moons are ruled by Pluto (arguably ruling Scorpio altogether at night, my chart is a good example of this). Also if they were born at night then they are ruled by the Moon in their chart (and therefore ruled by Pluto as it rules the Moon in Scorpio and Scorpio at night) over their Sun (again you can argue, but people born at night seem to be ruled by their Moon sign).

Dear ScarletDepths,

As Jim has said so eloquently many times, Scorpio is pure Mars and Pluto is not.
I am not sure why you keep comparing Pluto to Mars and Scorpio Moon ruling Pluto at night.
Sidereal astrology relates the Scorpio Moon to Mars, it's all Mars

I have a Scorpio Moon myself and whether I was born at night or early morning, it's in the same Constellation.

[Soft Alpaca]

A theory that's all. I have a Pluto moon aspect so I'm more open to Pluto being domicile in Scorpio at night I guess. I understand your perspective.

[Jim Eshelman]

A theory that's all. I have a Pluto moon aspect so I'm more open to Pluto being domicile in Scorpio at night I guess. I understand your perspective.

An interesting difference in how our minds work. When I find myself with a theory inspired primarily by my own chart vs. my self-view, I'm more inclined to doubt or even dismiss it; or certainly take it as an advisory to work harder to exclude my own point of view from the analysis.

[Soft Alpaca]

Finding it in other peoples charts. Mars ruled Scorpio types come across more bold the Pluto types come across more mysterious. Just something I've taken note of. It's yet to be officially proven or disproven.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Finding it in other peoples charts. Mars ruled Scorpio types come across more bold the Pluto types come across more mysterious. Just something I've taken note of. It's yet to be officially proven or disproven.

Officially proven? By whom?

[Soft Alpaca]

It has yet to be. By someone without any bias. (I can try to have no bias but I'm not exactly a master of my subconscious). However there is no work to wholesomely disprove it either. So it remains a theory.

[Jim Eshelman]

However there is no work to wholesomely disprove it either. So it remains a theory.

Except that the traits don't match the planet.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

The word "officially" matches a sign.

[Soft Alpaca]

Except I do my care about formalities and what's official is normally just a crock of crap.

[Jim Eshelman]

It's kinda interesting, Scarlet, that you're the only one leaning on this "official" thing.

If you're not careful, you might be mistaken for a Sagittarian.

[Soft Alpaca]

Good Jim, very good...