Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

I was looking over a few charts, including one for the young man that killed a few people in Charlottesville with his vehicle. A few other charts belong to other murderers who were driven by race to kill. I knew immediately before even look at this guy's chart that his moon would probably be in Sagittarius. Anywho, it's not just a typical white person thing, I've have noticed this lunar placement in African Americans who were also driven to commit race related murders. So, is a strong sense of supremacy reflected by the Moon in Sagittarius? It's like these people are guided by strong belief (Jupiter) that they are better or more supreme (Jupiter) to others that are not part of their own status quo.

I've observed the same thing too. (By the way, Hitler's a Sagittarius Moon too. Explains, huh?)
Though I may add, especially (or exclusively?) to the men of this Moon-sign, that these people could be homophobes, misogynists, and male-supremacists too. Or control freaks. Maybe to some of them too, intelligence may equal to personal sense of power. These people are the last people I'd reveal my homosexuality to too. But yes, of course (and thankfully) this doesn't apply to almost everyone of this Moon sign.

I know a very intellectual and gregarious Gemini-Sagittarius. Thought he was an atheist, but he's actually devoutly religious; you should just see him how he prays. Proud of his race and religion. Not to say that this is a racist/supremacist mentality, but he does at times gave minor comments that denigrate the race or religion of whatever person or subject he's mentioning about/that is being mentioned. He isn't that fluent in his native language, but due to the pride he has over it, he learnt it and he even learnt some impressive proverbs and idioms from his language too. Though he doesn't speak often in it. Social status is very important to him, he'd get furious if someone tries to tarnish his or his family's name and reputation. He's gained a good "top scorer" reputation among teachers, but doesn't like teachers whom are too fond of him because of his intellectuality. Often times these teachers also teach poorly. He criticises them behind their back.

But more so, he's somewhat perverted and a sexist, also a homophobe. Once a senior who's a Lesbian came out to a group of juniors which included me and him. He pretty much felt uncomfortable with her coming out, and even cringed lightly. He asked "how is it like loving another woman?" to which I replied diplomatically, "probably like how a man loves a woman too." The senior agreed and went on with my point. Sometimes he suspects I'm gay and that I like him (though I'll swear he'll be one of the last people I'll come out of the closet to, and also please, I have taste) and he mentions to me "I'm not gay" in such a contempt-filled manner.

During a biology class, we were learning of the abnormalities within sex chromosomes. As stated in the textbooks, one of the symptoms when a woman has three X-chromosomes (XXX) were that of decreased intelligence. He then told me something like, "Hmm, so three X chromosomes, female chromosomes, make you stupid. So what women generally are?" I was very {nassed} off by this joke of his that I ignored it and countered in my usual Libran non-conflict way, throwing in some facts and analogies. He didn't seem to much care about those counters.
There some other small instances of his sexism, like when he gives advice to other men on how to "tackle a girl." His "advice" have always rubbed me in the wrong way, like as if women were something like a property or wild animal that men need to "tame" in order to "gain possession" over them. He doesn't seem to like it the concept of feminism that much, he too like some other men think it's a movement aiming for female dominance in society. His perverted side is that he seems like he'd be very sadistic in his sexual tastes and that sex would greatly inflate his ego. Another classmate agrees with me in this. By the way his father, a teacher in a primary school, was briefly in trouble for mentioning sexual innuendoes to children. (Boy I have a lot to talk about this guy! I'll end here.)


Then there's this Cancer-Sagittarius guy, also pretty intellectual, but can be a snob. A little too perfectionistic, and discourages when others don't meet to his standards. From what I heard from a close friend of his, he had the sweetest, kindest girlfriend, but was too much of a control freak over her, he independence was compromised, and so she left.

The current president of the Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party (PAS) is a lunar Sagittarian. This party is noted for its recent efforts in increasing the power of the country's Sharia court to non-Muslims, and for its efforts in implementing strict Hudud laws into the nation.

The women of this Moon sign as far as I can tell, aren't exactly like the above though. They may strongly care about family, name and reputation, and can be religious too, but they're not as "racist/supremacist" as some Sag Moon men can be. Some though seem pressured by society's standards and are pressured to always perfect themselves.

Sag Suns, on the other hand, don't seem to come off like their Sag Moon counterpart, they're calmer, are more wise, and (I suspect with Pluto in Sagittarius, as Jim observes) they are little more libreral, they care for human rights and they seem less "elitist." Very unpretentious, unlike some Sag Moons who love being hosts and ringmasters, amazing the crowd.

Venus_Daily wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:53 pm I was looking over a few charts, including one for the young man that killed a few people in Charlottesville with his vehicle. A few other charts belong to other murderers who were driven by race to kill. I knew immediately before even look at this guy's chart that his moon would probably be in Sagittarius. Anywho, it's not just a typical white person thing, I've have noticed this lunar placement in African Americans who were also driven to commit race related murders. So, is a strong sense of supremacy reflected by the Moon in Sagittarius? It's like these people are guided by strong belief (Jupiter) that they are better or more supreme (Jupiter) to others that are not part of their own status quo.

I agree with your observations completely, and mostly agree with your interpretation. (BTW, regarding murderers, Moon in Sagittarius is quite common for them in general. I think it's a weapons thing, arising from the symbol of the arrow. It's a common placement in the same sense that there are strong military figures as well as notable sadists.)

I think all of your "why" interpretations are probably correct, at least in part; but the main thing driving it is the Jupiter sense of "purity." It's difficult to explain in a few words, although reading the Kid Gloves article on Jupiter will plant most of the seeds. Partly it's a Sagittarius theme (easier to see in the Sun, I think, but there with the Moon, too) of identification with one's group - I prefer the word tribe, to catch all the subtleties - identification with family, clan, community, race, sports team, fraternity or sorority, political party, religious group, other cultural group - some way of enveloping this in a big "family" like circle and saying that those who live inside the circle have to be protected and supported, and those who live outside of it have to be defended against so that the exact lifestyles, culture, customs of the in-group can stay pure.

Stuff like that.

Yes, I have noticed the same too. A strong sense of supremacy reflected by the Moon in Sagittarius. Racist comments on forums and obsessive compulsive behavior from a guy I know. He also has cyclomythic disturbances and the more unhealthy he becomes the more disciplined and moral he gets and expects others to be the same. Rigid to a tee. When he is really ill he wears army uniforms. And marches like soldiers do. On the other hand my best two friends with a Sagittarius Moon are one of the finest people I know. They thrive on reassurance as they find themselves never good enough. Both of them are polite and have indeed good manners and are great hosts.

On the other hand my best two friends with a Sagittarius Moon are one of the finest people I know. They thrive on reassurance as they find themselves never good enough. Both of them are polite and have indeed good manners and are great hosts.

This sounds exactly like myself, minus the host. I haven't hosted in a while.

think all of your "why" interpretations are probably correct, at least in part; but the main thing driving it is the Jupiter sense of "purity." It's difficult to explain in a few words, although reading the Kid Gloves article on Jupiter will plant most of the seeds.

Is the purity motif common amongst the "Fire" triplicities? The man involved in the Charlottesville murder was also an Aries Sun.

Also, the founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, an insidious racist and a huge proponent of eugenics, who intentionally set up abortion clinics in African American neighborhood, has a small Leo Stellenium with Luna, Mercury, Uranus, and Sol positioned in the Solar constellation.

She also has a Mars/Pluto conjunction in Taurus, which is quite symbolic of her wanting to castrate the world and destroy what she deemed as inferior gametes and reproductive organs.

Great examples!

Yes, something like the purity theme is at least present in Leo - what Tropicalists observe as Virgo "purity" traits, but I've always seen as a "perfection" or "pristine" quality of Sun. Gold doesn't tarnish like other metals (it's inherently incorruptible, doesn't oxidize), so it's part of a larger "no flaw, no tarnish" theme that moves through Leo in various ways.

I haven't seen it in Aries, though. All the 'fire' types have power and eminence drives, and Aries (think Hitler) is certainly capable of violence in defense of purity if the trait otherwise shows, but I don't think it's quite the same.

Okay, I think my post above just shamed the Moon in Sagittarius. I'm sorry if I even at the slightest bit offended any lunar Sags here, especially you, Venus.

Let me reiterate that whatever I wrote above just reflected some very few Sagittarius Moons I know, and I'll further state that most of them are pretty gregarious, fun, active, motivating and charming, and with good morals. They're skilled in business/entrepreneurship and are bright with ideas. They're also very admirable human beings. Help a Sagittarius during their harsh times or to reach their long-desired goals and they'll honour your care like you're God-sent. And I'm actually pretty close with that Gemini-Sagittarius, I just, as a close friend, wish he didn't have such traits in himself in his otherwise admirable self. Now we're not that in touch though, he went off to university.

That's alright, Scales. It wasn't really offensive, I understand everything is a learning experience.

Now that I understand more about Jupiter and Sagittarius and Jupiter's copycat/conformist nature, it makes more sense. I've met a lot of people, who call themselves "artists" and have prominent Jupiters in their charts, but they lack originality for so many different reasons. You can see this influence in mother nature through growth; although we think growth is so unique and awe inspiring, it's really not. Mother nature uses the same framework based on fractals to guide growth, which saves on time and energy.

The radical environmentalist and anarcho-primativist Derrick Jensen comes to mind (Dec 19, 1960). He has Sag Sun and Sag Moon, but he is very left wing, to the point where he wishes to destroy all civilizations. His ideas cover the genocide of Native Americans, the conquest and enslavement of Africans, the German Holocaust, and other racial atrocities committed by civilizations. According to him, civilizations are inherently destructive and genocidal for a number of reasons.

The origin of the city is a concentration of power in the hands of a few elites who can rise to power due to excess resources and enslave the rest of the population through conquest abroad and repression at home. Because a city has a huge population, it must drain resources from the surrounding land to support its people, and thus must get those resources by enslaving or wiping out all "barbarians" outside.

Jensen is fascinating because he is a double Sag and even has a Sag stellium, yet his politics are as anti-civilization and anti-racist as it comes.

By Jove wrote: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:12 pm The radical environmentalist and anarcho-primativist Derrick Jensen comes to mind (Dec 19, 1960). He has Sag Sun and Sag Moon ...

The origin of the city is a concentration of power in the hands of a few elites who can rise to power due to excess resources and enslave the rest of the population through conquest abroad and repression at home. Because a city has a huge population, it must drain resources from the surrounding land to support its people, and thus must get those resources by enslaving or wiping out all "barbarians" outside. ...

I have only read Jensen's Wikipedia entry, but if this accurately reflects him, he seems to have some other prejudices, for example transphobia. As a long time friend of the LGBT community, I have learned to recognize that particular prejudice--it was the last one I inherited from my parents that I let go of.

lf Jensen seriously advocates abolishing cities and civilizations, this will result in a massive reduction of the human population. So maybe Jensen is racist
like the dysfunctional Sags we've been describing: the race he is prejudiced against is human.

mikestar13 wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:25 am

By Jove wrote: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:12 pm The radical environmentalist and anarcho-primativist Derrick Jensen comes to mind (Dec 19, 1960). He has Sag Sun and Sag Moon, but he is very left wing, to the point where he wishes to destroy all civilizations. His ideas cover the genocide of Native Americans, the conquest and enslavement of Africans, the German Holocaust, and other racial atrocities committed by civilizations. According to him, civilizations are inherently destructive and genocidal for a number of reasons.

The origin of the city is a concentration of power in the hands of a few elites who can rise to power due to excess resources and enslave the rest of the population through conquest abroad and repression at home. Because a city has a huge population, it must drain resources from the surrounding land to support its people, and thus must get those resources by enslaving or wiping out all "barbarians" outside.

Jensen is fascinating because he is a double Sag and even has a Sag stellium, yet his politics are as anti-civilization and anti-racist as it comes.

I am not trying to disrespect anyone's political beliefs, but this could also be a different context. I believe that Jensen's could have found the environment to be truly elite over what man has created.

By Jove wrote: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:12 pm The radical environmentalist and anarcho-primativist Derrick Jensen comes to mind (Dec 19, 1960). He has Sag Sun and Sag Moon, but he is very left wing, to the point where he wishes to destroy all civilizations. His ideas cover the genocide of Native Americans, the conquest and enslavement of Africans, the German Holocaust, and other racial atrocities committed by civilizations. According to him, civilizations are inherently destructive and genocidal for a number of reasons.

The origin of the city is a concentration of power in the hands of a few elites who can rise to power due to excess resources and enslave the rest of the population through conquest abroad and repression at home. Because a city has a huge population, it must drain resources from the surrounding land to support its people, and thus must get those resources by enslaving or wiping out all "barbarians" outside.

Jensen is fascinating because he is a double Sag and even has a Sag stellium, yet his politics are as anti-civilization and anti-racist as it comes.

My thoughts exactly, it's about the sublimation of one thing and the subversion of another because we don't live in a vacuum. Jupiter's influence in Pisces and Sagittarius is all about value judgments and tribalism. When you look at it from a rational perspective, it's completely subjective as beliefs tend to be.

It's funny that you've touched on the LGBT community because I have been looking at a lot of horoscope for people in the transgender community and they have a lot of Moon/Jupiter, strong Jupiters, or moon in Pisces......moon in Sagittarius tends to be quite low for modern transgenders. What I mean by modern is people who supposedly came out as "transgender" after Uranus entered Pisces.

Also, having my progrossed moon just entering Pisces, I have discovered just how much of a copy cat sign Pisces is. I don't mean that in a bad way, I am talking about the arts. Famous Pisces Suns like Mariah Carey and Aretha Frankln are like walking pianos with great hardware and software, they can sort of eat a note, digest it, and then spit it back out accurately.

The only point I was trying to make is that I challenge Jensen's status as being anti-racist. I do in fact agree with Jensen about the massive downsides of cities and civilization. If he does in fact advocate [and he well may not, I haven't read him, just his Wikipedia entry] the destruction of cities/civilization, this would entail billions of human deaths were it done. I do not believe the environment is more important than humans to that degree. I most certainly do agree that the environment is critically important and much about civilization needs to change.

Let's say Mr. White American politician advocates policies that he knows will cause the deaths of huge numbers of Native Americans. I would say that politician is racist--he has a clearly demonstrated a prejudice against Native Americans. I assert Jensen demonstrates a similar prejudice against humans. Perhaps it is not appropriate to describe this prejudice as "racism". It is,however IMHO, Jupiter's purity motif gone mad.

I will not discuss Jensen further in this thread, nor anywhere else on Solunars. I apologize to anyone I may have offended by my comments.

I have spent a good amount of time with at least three Sag moons. All white. One of them played pro basketball and another plays music in an all black church. They aren't afraid to talk about race in front of other races, they don't see an issue with it. They don't speak negatively but just make distinctions. They are outspoken about race but aren't bigots. I've known allot of Gemini's to be racist too.
I personally am sensitive to reverse racism. Like playing the race card. And I will openly talk about race which makes people think I am being mean or unfair or ignorant. But people can be so sensitive and they won't usually listen but just automatically assume that if race is mentioned, you are racist. If I favor German shepards am I breedist? If I favor oak trees, am I.... speciesist? I see a bigger picture usually and don't focus on the differences but that we are all people.

mikestar13 wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:25 am

By Jove wrote: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:12 pm The radical environmentalist and anarcho-primativist Derrick Jensen comes to mind (Dec 19, 1960). He has Sag Sun and Sag Moon ...

The origin of the city is a concentration of power in the hands of a few elites who can rise to power due to excess resources and enslave the rest of the population through conquest abroad and repression at home. Because a city has a huge population, it must drain resources from the surrounding land to support its people, and thus must get those resources by enslaving or wiping out all "barbarians" outside. ...

I have only read Jensen's Wikipedia entry, but if this accurately reflects him, he seems to have some other prejudices, for example transphobia. As a long time friend of the LGBT community, I have learned to recognize that particular prejudice--it was the last one I inherited from my parents that I let go of.

lf Jensen seriously advocates abolishing cities and civilizations, this will result in a massive reduction of the human population. So maybe Jensen is racist
like the dysfunctional Sags we've been describing: the race he is prejudiced against is human.

To defend Jensen, yes, I am a double Sag with a Sag stellium, like he is. My birthday is even one day earlier than his.

You can't be racist against the human race as a whole. Knowing the human population needs to be massively reduced to live in a stable planet is not "racist" or even murderous. Consider how our civilization is so openly human supremacist and has driven so many species into extinction (and attempted genocide against "inferior" human "races" along the way). Jensen is, if anything, putting things back into perspective; we humans are just another animal in this world, and so we need to accommodate other living beings lest everyone goes extinct. We need to focus on the environment first, not human wellbeing. He treats animals as people; sentient beings.

Jensen has exposed, better than anyone else I know, the true nature of civilization at its heart, that includes how our civilization is inherently white supremacist, misogynistic, and has directly caused the genocide of so many human "races" and animal species. The guy has taught prison inmates for a long time now, who most are definitely not white and are perhaps the most downtrodden in society. Being charitable to such a degree, is definitely a Jupiter thing. And of course he has advocated for Indigenous people all his life. Again, that's as anti-racist as it comes.

Your only argument supporting Jensen's "racism" is his transphobia, which would only count as "racism" if you broadened the definition.

To perhaps redirect this a bit, I don't think that racism is a Sagittarius trait per se. It is, however, one specific expression (and there are many expressions) of numerous other Sagittarius traits that converge in elitism, judgmentalism, isolationism (not so much social isolation as cultural isolation), with a very strong (very strong) streak of "My kind come first!"

It then becomes a matter of what that particular Sagittarius describes as "my kind," and in this is wide diversity.

The more neurotic Sagittarians (especially the Moons) often have a germ phobia where "those who aren't my kind" are, to them, the germs.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:08 am To perhaps redirect this a bit, I don't think that racism is a Sagittarius trait per se. It is, however, one specific expression (and there are many expressions) of numerous other Sagittarius traits that converge in elitism, judgmentalism, isolationism (not so much social isolation as cultural isolation), with a very strong (very strong) streak of "My kind come first!"

It then becomes a matter of what that particular Sagittarius describes as "my kind," and in this is wide diversity.

The more neurotic Sagittarians (especially the Moons) often have a germ phobia where "those who aren't my kind" are, to them, the germs.

So, it's not just about race, it's about Jupiter's tendency to create an individual identification without whatever group or "kind" you perceive to be "elite".

You can't be racist against the human race as a whole.

Racist, no, speciest...yes.
I think it also depends on the societal influences, before Pluto entered Sagittarius, I really didn't care about illegal immigration or race relations, but once it progressed through Sagittarius, I became very involved. Thankfully, I went back to not caring. The way that my moon, Jupiter, and Neptune (in Sag) have really consistently manifested throughout my entire life is being more of an elitist with fashion, plants, and animals. I used to grow exotic succulents and orchids, and I hated generic hybrids; I always went for more selective Species. I think gender really does color how these constellations manifest in your life. I've always found the military, history, and weapons to be quite uninteresting, even downright barbaric. No offense to anyone; simply a subjective personal opinion.

Racist, no, speciest...yes.
I think it also depends on the societal influences, before Pluto entered Sagittarius, I really didn't care about illegal immigration or race relations, but once it progressed through Sagittarius, I became very involved. Thankfully, I went back to not caring. The way that my moon, Jupiter, and Neptune (in Sag) have really consistently manifested throughout my entire life is being more of an elitist with fashion, plants, and animals. I used to grow exotic succulents and orchids, and I hated generic hybrids; I always went for more selective Species. I think gender really does color how these constellations manifest in your life. I've always found the military, history, and weapons to be quite uninteresting, even downright barbaric. No offense to anyone; simply a subjective personal opinion.

Yeah, Pluto in Sag is bringing out all the nasty racism that has previously been more hidden. And of course we see a huge surge in nationalist ideologies, tribal mentality, identity politics. We see many terrorist attacks but most are domestic attacks like school shootings and racial assaults, mostly done by entitled white guys. In other words, all Jupiter, and maybe Pluto, concerning the 2008 economic depression.

In Pluto in Scorpio, we saw a huge uptick in overseas terrorist attacks in the global scale, including 9/11, which shaped global policies to come. Strategic warfare is huge here: Osama bin Ladin set his trap to draw the United States and Europe into a series of costly wars in the Middle East to bankrupt them. Bin Ladin wildly succeeded, and became the West's Devil figure, later followed by Saddam Hussein. So here we see Mars and possibly the broad reach of Ouronos with the availability of the Internet and resurgence of global terror attacks.

In Pluto in Libra we see the AIDS outbreak, which is Venus par excellence, including the massive struggles of the LGBT community to gain recognition of the AIDS outbreak and be seen as human beings. Predictably, the conservative establishment morally condemned them for being "amoral" while Reagan refused to address a terminally ill disease; all these things Saturn. And this is when the crack epidemic in Harlem ravaged the black communities of New York, leading to more moralistic and bigoted judgements.

By Jove wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:17 am

Racist, no, speciest...yes.
I think it also depends on the societal influences, before Pluto entered Sagittarius, I really didn't care about illegal immigration or race relations, but once it progressed through Sagittarius, I became very involved. Thankfully, I went back to not caring. The way that my moon, Jupiter, and Neptune (in Sag) have really consistently manifested throughout my entire life is being more of an elitist with fashion, plants, and animals. I used to grow exotic succulents and orchids, and I hated generic hybrids; I always went for more selective Species. I think gender really does color how these constellations manifest in your life. I've always found the military, history, and weapons to be quite uninteresting, even downright barbaric. No offense to anyone; simply a subjective personal opinion.

Yeah, Pluto in Sag is bringing out all the nasty racism that has previously been more hidden. And of course we see a huge surge in nationalist ideologies, tribal mentality, identity politics. We see many terrorist attacks but most are domestic attacks like school shootings and racial assaults, mostly done by entitled white guys. In other words, all Jupiter, and maybe Pluto, concerning the 2008 economic depression.

In Pluto in Scorpio, we saw a huge uptick in overseas terrorist attacks in the global scale, including 9/11, which shaped global policies to come. Strategic warfare is huge here: Osama bin Ladin set his trap to draw the United States and Europe into a series of costly wars in the Middle East to bankrupt them. Bin Ladin wildly succeeded, and became the West's Devil figure, later followed by Saddam Hussein. So here we see Mars and possibly the broad reach of Ouronos with the availability of the Internet and resurgence of global terror attacks.

In Pluto in Libra we see the AIDS outbreak, which is Venus par excellence, including the massive struggles of the LGBT community to gain recognition of the AIDS outbreak and be seen as human beings. Predictably, the conservative establishment morally condemned them for being "amoral" while Reagan refused to address a terminally ill disease; all these things Saturn. And this is when the crack epidemic in Harlem ravaged the black communities of New York, leading to more moralistic and bigoted judgements.

I read your post last night, and I thought I'd give it some time to sink in. As for Pluto in Sag, it really seems odd. The similarities are there between those two energies (Jupiter-Sag/Pluto). I was thinking to myself, the all -or-nothing nature of Pluto should be right at home in Sagittarius instead of its possible exaltation in Gemini. The part of Sagittarius/Jupiter that keeps pluto from harmonizing with it is that Jupiter is not all or nothing, it's just "all". Having my moon in Sagittarius, I've noticed that I can be willful, uncompromising, and obstinate to the point of pathology, but it's different from something like Capricorn. I guess Pluto is very much the transformative force to an older Sagittarius that is still trying to cling to old ways and beliefs under the guise of any sort of purity (1 drop rule, borders between US and Mexico).

Knowing Sagittarius, the sign itself seems to be deeply rooted in what some term the "patriarchy". We have seen a false belief that it's been defeated since 2008, but that's just not true. Sadly, the patriarchy seems to be all relative, meaning that with the aging of each generation, we see a new patriarchy, just from slightly different POVs.

As for the AIDS outbreak, Pluto was in Libra, but I have noticed the energy of Libra seems to be unintentionally judgmental. Libra Suns and people with planets placed in Libra seem to be oblivious to POVs that are not their own. I think the Saturn influence seen from Pluto in Libra was highly reactionary as a matter of survival. Saturn was also in Virgo around that time with Jupiter, meaning there was lots, and lots of unfounded paranoia going on. Even Sharon stone, someone who is and was very liberal took an AIDS test in the 80s after making out, on set, with an HIV positive Rock Hudson. Also, Neptune was just about to move into Sagittarius chipping away at the false beliefs of the elite and status quo. A lot of the "elite" had children who were infected, or they became infected themselves. A lot of them were just paranoid about sitting on toilet seats and catching disease; it was billed as insidious and ubiquitous. Also, the diagnosable hypochondriacs were needlessly scaring themselves without even having met a person with the disease.

Some thoughts about Pluto vs. Jupiter. Jupiter is indeed "all" vs. Pluto's "all or nothing" mundanely indicates both greater intensity of racism, and an intensified struggle against racism. Some of us embrace racism and others reject it utterly, leaving society schizophrenic about race but more aware of it for good and for ill. This applies equally well to other issues. I've noticed that the USA is a worse place to be poor, female, LGBT, disabled (or just ill!), etc. than it was earlier in the twenty-first century, as well as worse to be non-White.

Early in my astrological career (circa 1982) I encountered two brothers who were raised in a fairly typical whit southern household of the 1960's. There were very racist attitudes (often unconscious) in that family, but they were not violent about it: they would grossly discriminate against a black man, but they wouldn't think of killing him. One brother joined the civil rights movement and totally rejected his family's racism, while the other doubled down on it by joining the KKK!

Their charts both featured tight Jupiter-Pluto aspects in the foreground. I don't have the birth data now, and neither brother rose high enough in their respective organizations to be publicly prominent. The case was brought to me by the first brother (not the KKK brother!) who was trying to understand why he and his brother were so different. I was too green to be much help.

I think something is being missed here on the Pluto in Sagittarius discussion.

So far, the discussion has mostly gone in the sense of (my words, my paraphrase), "Pluto is accelerating / intensifying," etc. Sagittarius issues, such as class and other tribe distinctions. I think that's backwards - in fact, it's a counter-reaction, not the primary meaning

The primary meaning of Pluto travelling through a sign is to challenge, confront, remove the arbitrary {bs} from, and often end up tearing down (or tearing at) what the sign means. This does typically create a sense of acute crisis.

The main meaning of Pluto in Sagittarius, then, is a mass-mind-level assault on things arbitrary and inauthentic about Sagittarius which, in fact, means a great deal that is normal to Sagittarius. For example, Pluto in Sagittarius would be an assault on or challenging of the legitimacy of religious institutions and, in fact, particularly in this country, the number of people who identify with a specific religion and see themselves actively participating in it has diminished acutely, even though the number of people that think of themselves as spiritual or religions has risen.

The main characteristic is the assault, the challenge; but, naturally, this is going to stir a counter-reaction, and those who are most passionately identified with religion are going to retaliate in extreme, volatilized ways, from the resurgence of the religions right in this country to the radicalization of extreme Muslim groups, and so on.

The same is true of economic elitism (and other kinds of protected elitism): The primary effect (c0nsistent with how Pluto operates in every other context) is to tear at (with the hope of tearing down) the {bs} of economic and other protected class status. (This is independent of left or right, since, at this point in history, the beneficiaries of '60s and '70s affirmative action groups are being pursued in the same way)

With Pluto in Sagittarius, the promise was very much present of uprooting and ultimately eliminating vast categories of tribalism - racial, economic, and in other "cultural identity" fashions, to get past the "assimilated in a blender" interpretation of Melting Pot in place of a broad, diverse, co-existence of numerous cultures with independent contributions. (What I call the cioppino soup pot interpretation.) Yet there was so much residual "White Christian Male Straight, This is Who We Are in America" tribalism that, just at the point we had the potential to eradicate it utterly- casting it as far into history's shame pit as slavery and Nazi Germany, we get the counter-reaction - they arise and react in vast, radicalized numbers just as radical Islam arose in similar pockets.

The main impact is the "tear down this {bs}, purge the arbitrary, blow off the inauthentic." But where there is deep attachment to the {bs}, the arbitrary, and the inauthentic, people attached to it will storm back into the fray.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:12 pm With Pluto in Sagittarius, the promise was very much present of uprooting and ultimately eliminating vast categories of tribalism - racial, economic, and in other "cultural identity" fashions, to get past the "assimilated in a blender" interpretation of Melting Pot in place of a broad, diverse, co-existence of numerous cultures with independent contributions. (What I call the cioppino soup pot interpretation.) Yet there was so much residual "White Christian Male Straight, This is Who We Are in America" tribalism that, just at the point we had the potential to eradicate it utterly- casting it as far into history's shame pit as slavery and Nazi Germany, we get the counter-reaction - they arise and react in vast, radicalized numbers just as radical Islam arose in similar pockets.

You're very right, Jim. I am not standing up for the patriarchy, but it's a simplistic view to think it's just them reacting. We also have a new group of progressives (whites included) that worship identity (Jupiter) politics and subvert predominant culture (White Christian men), which seems self-defeating. If we continue this cycle, then stuff like discrimination, bigotry, and intolerance will continue until the mass extinction of organisms on earthy.

What if I predicted the mass extinction would begin when Pluto enters Capricorn?

Well, you'll be right or wrong

Pluto transiting the world's Mars and Saturn... makes sense. But it's a pretty extreme prediction, and those tend to be wrong.

You might check what happened last time Pluto transited Capricorn.

Ah, who am I kidding. The sixth mass extinction is already here. It began with the Industrial Revolution, maybe even earlier.

Skimming over this as a sag sun, I believe in culture, race doesn't exist it's just a man made box, our race is technically human (the human race). I do think culture is real but "race" isn't a hard truth.

Reverse-Racism is just the oppsite of racism btw.

Racism can happen to any race, and if someone thinks one race is above racism is actually being predjuduce and frankly ignorant, Pre-WWII Poland prevented a conference from happening where a guy was coming to speak about the dangers of Hitler and the fascist party of Germany he predicted that they would kill Jews in Germany, Poland called this guy out for attacking there friend, Germany. Shortly after Germany invaded Poland... this is just one example that no one us truley safe.

I don't know many sag moons but I know calling them racist in general would be a little prejudice. It could be a possibility however that it is easyer for Sag. Moons to become racist, compared to some of the other signs.

I've met many free spirit sags very chill and fairly passive, more than I have met these types.