Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

I am revisiting the nature of natal Jupiter-Saturn aspects. I wonder what you all may have to contribute in sorting out this (to me) difficult to articulate aspect.

One frequently recurring theme, that seems like the backbone of this aspect, is a relationship to traditional institutions and orthodoxies; but it appears in two seemingly opposed ways, one of embracing and embodying such institutions, and one of standing opposed to them in different ways.

The first is easy to spot, especially among famous people: Jupiter-Saturn, themed to politics and business finance, marks a wide circle of politicians and business financiers. They literally embody "the system" - the system is made up of them and those like them.

Against this are those who are politically conscious, including writers and other artists whose politically-themed works have often been critics and gadflies of their era's rulers or government systems. I no longer think of them as per se the foes of the status quo, so much as the champions of a better system. (Was Galileo a radical? If so, it was his Aquarius-Aries, not his Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. His actions were radical, but he only wanted the truth.)

One can fall back to saying such things as "politics and finance are major themes in their lives," and then figure out how that theme actualizes by other means; but I now think that doing so misses fundamental themes and principles. I'm looking for the essence from which all of the aspect's diverse traits arise. (I have a lot more basic stuff than I'm reviewing in this present post, but I'm trying to focus on these specific themes.)

The likely years of birth of Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammed were all years of Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions. While today they are all embodiments of tradition and orthodoxy, they were radical thought-leaders of their times. The same is true of Freud, who today seems a tired old institution: But that's part of what I'm seeing, he actually became the foundation of a new orthodoxy. Among the famous, I find many in science and other fields whose revolutionary thought became the foundation of new orthodoxy. Major music figures tend to be iconic, not just popular, nearly social cornerstones (John Lennon, Lady Gaga, Placido Domingo, Joan Baez, in diverse ways).

This shows best in the famous examples. It is more difficult to see in day-to-day people. I am starting to see that they tend to be cornerstones of their families and communities. I used to agree with Carter and Lewi that they lack imagination, but I now think they merely favor what is proven (which can look like the same thing): One can hardly say that this collection of revolutionary scientists and musicians, and the likes of Gene Roddenberry, Walt Disney, and Kenneth Anger lack imagination!

A spin-off: Increasingly, I see an ancestor worship or family tradition motif with this aspect, including many who continue a family legacy or have fame not readily separate from that of a parent or child; or artists who carry a dynastic or cultural heritage as part of their mark. As a simple example, it is easy to find major actors with the aspect who are part of a family legacy, with either a parent or a child in the lineage (e.g., Candice Bergen, Geena Davis, Martin Sheen... recently actor Meghan Markle took on family allegiance to one of the grandest "old institutions" on the planet... Woody Allen "brings all his formative family with him in everything he does"... Mel Gibson has been an active continuator and institutional support of his father's church... and so on.)

Ebertin mentions none of this. Traits he does mention are often more day-to-day expressions, especially the positive traits, and I probably have to rely more on them (after further vetting).

I could write a dozen pages on Jupiter-Saturn aspects, in fact, taking several other themes and spreading them out this way, but what I really need to do is fit everything important in three to five lines!

I can't call them conservative any longer - there are many who are politically and socially conservative and preservative of old orthodoxies, and also many who are the foes of these and even the forerunners of new orthodoxies. Those with average and below-average income are hardly "pillars of our society," though they are often cornerstones of their families and smaller communities. The exact way the typical person with this aspect relates to finance depends on so many other factors it is hard to pin down, though I know many diverse ways they do it.

That's one problem with this aspect: Jupiter and Saturn have some things in common, but in many ways they are so opposed that the exact outcome is from a "balancing act" of swinging between opposites. I think (though I could be wrong... still working on it) that for most of them Jupiter aspecting Saturn promises reward from hard work, and Saturn aspecting Jupiter slows and grounds one's ambition - the final result (except in the dysfunctional) usually being a balanced, economical approach to life.

But maybe not. I'm still digging.

What say ye all?

So, screening out all the hand-wringing in this, what concrete things did I say? Let's strip away the padding and meandering...

They seem deeply connected to traditional institutions and orthodoxies, but in two seemingly opposed ways: one of embracing and embodying such institutions, and one of standing opposed to them in different ways.

Embracing & embodying orthodoxies: Easy to spot, especially among the famous: Themes of politics and business finance, with a wide circle of politicians and business financiers. Literally, they are "the system."

Opposed to orthodoxies: Includes writers and other artists whose politically-themed works have often been critics and gadflies of their era's rulers, standards, and orthodoxies.

Therefore, politics and finance are major themes in their lives either way. but I'm looking for something more concrete and essential that this.

Many of the famous are themselves radical thought leaders whose often revolutionary thought becomes (in their lives and after) the embodiment of new traditions and orthodoxies. Revolutionary scientists and artists are found here, often giants of imagination.

It is more difficult to see the outcome in day-to-day people. I think they tend to be cornerstones of their families and communities. In no sense do they lack imagination, but may favor what is proven or available (which can look like the same thing).

I see an ancestor worship or family tradition motif. Many continue a family legacy or have fame connected to that of a parent or child; or artists who carry a dynastic or cultural heritage as part of their mark.

They are not inherently conservative: Many are politically and socially conservative and preservative of old orthodoxies, and many others are foes of these and even forerunners of new orthodoxies.

That's a tighter statement of where my thoughts are going.

Is it that they neither embrace nor oppose orthodoxies, but look for the usefulness or the truth in them, and how they react is predicated in what they find.

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:34 pm Is it that they neither embrace nor oppose orthodoxies, but look for the usefulness or the truth in them, and how they react is predicated in what they find.

I think... it's something like that... just trying to pin down exactly what.

I think they are practical and sensible, yes. I think they are fabulous with making lemonade when given lemons (a variation of "what win is there to be found in this loss").

I don't think they are indifferent to the orthodoxies (or legacies, or heritages, or whatever word applies). The orthodoxies seem to draw their strong allegiance OR their enmity, and something in them - some relationship to value? (I'm punting here) - determines which way it goes. I suppose a lot of it is practical: If one is "part of the system," one supports it; otherwise, one calls out against it? (But it's not that simple.) Many have acute social conscience, but I'm not clear whether that is from this aspect, or is from something else. (Most people in long-term public service do tend to start with good motives besides their own power urges, and do want to do what they think is right.)

I suppose I'm rambling, and this may not seem like I'm exactly responsive to what you wrote. Yes, there is surely the pragmatism you describe.

I don't think those who end up being the baseline of new orthodoxies set out to do that. Galileo didn't - he was just pursuing science, and everything else spilled from there. Some like Roddenberry and Disney had real vision. Heisenberg and Curie each rewrote the rules of physics, as Galileo of astronomy. I don't think Freud envisioned himself as a new institution, and Woody Allen is so self-absorbed I doubt he was entirely focused on changing society (though he did). John Lennon wanted to have a really good band and he broke all the rules except the really fundamental ones, which he held onto (the most culturally significant music-altering impact of modern times was founded on 4-4 architecture). OTOH I'm sure Lady Gaga set out to shake things up and get people to listen Fidel Castro was a radical who became an entrenched institution.

Yes, usefulness or truth or practicality is a big part of it.

Freya, you're maybe the only person on the forum with a close Jupiter-Saturn aspect (your sextile). If you see this, can you let me know what you think about all of this? (Thanks in advance.)

BTW it's a BFD to get one aspect right. I've been spending a week on this one. Might have it wrapped up soon, but still want everyone's input.

Here's what I've written as the new Jupiter-Saturn interpretation... but please, keep the discussion going.

Practical, sensible (especially with finances). Responsible, conscientious, dutiful. Effective survivors. Patient hard work (earning one's place, success through industry) brings the most reliable rewards. Balances gain & loss: what can be won from losing, what it costs to win (cf. politics, finance; making lemonade from lemons). Attuned to legacy, heritage, tradition. Cornerstones of their families or circles. Orthodoxies draw their strong allegiance or opposition (the most creative become baselines of new orthodoxies).

Jupiter opposite Saturn is one of the closest aspects (0°36') I have in my mundoscope at birth place, and it is angular.
I attribute this aspect to my deep interest in politics and my extreme ease/natural talent in understanding money and economics. I see my involvement and interest in politics as being one of the "champions of a better system". It is for reform of the system. I do think this is strongly influenced by the Uranus square n. MC (and possibly n. Pluto square ASC), that gives radical reform thinking and ideas on how to change the system... a kind of "think outside the box" ability.

Thanks to both of you.

Danica wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:10 am I see them as methodical, in the sense of having systematic & step-by-step approach to whatever they are dealing with. When Sun, Mars, Pluto are pronounced in the chart, they tend to be well-balanced. When this not the case, and especially if Saturn pronounced in the chart, there's tendency to be in a way lost regarding own work/path, staying in circumstances that are limiting, hard, and it seems as if they are specifically seeking out the hardship (unconsciously).

I'll take a look at this, but... Sun, Mars, Pluto... are you really just saying that if they're an Aries, they can handle this stuff just fine?

"Methodical" isn't a trait that jumped out at me, but I'll take it back and look at my group of people I know best. I imagine it applies to those who are actively engaged in business & politics etc., but I don't (prior to revisiting the list soon) see how it applies to most day-to-day examples. I did pick the words responsible & conscientious and wonder if we are seeing different sides of the elephant? It didn't strike me that method was a particular component, but that more or less "whatever it takes to make it work" was an inherent commitment. - Maybe I have to watch them in smaller, everyday things. (There I go wandering around talking in circles again. I'll just have to go look.)

Arena wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:24 am Jupiter opposite Saturn is one of the closest aspects (0°36') I have in my mundoscope at birth place, and it is angular.

Yes, they're the two closest planets to your angles - Saturn 1°32' above Asc, Jupiter 2°16' below Dsc. I didn't catch this because my search tool only captured ecliptical aspects.

I attribute this aspect to my deep interest in politics and my extreme ease/natural talent in understanding money and economics.

Yes, these had been exactly the two themes about the aspect that I've most emphasized in my thinking and writing for the last 40 years or so. It strikingly fits my famous examples and a tiny percentage of my non-famous examples. What got me going was realizing that neither of those as written applied to the day-to-day lives of the vast majority of non-famous people with it.

This naturally suggested that there was something more fundamental, of which "politics & business-economics" were high-visibility outcroppings. I thought it a breakthrough when, from mundane astrology work a year ago, I realized just how much politics and business-economics relies on managing the continually interrelating opposite of gain and loss - "what can I get for myself by losing? What does winning cost me?" (Etc.) That was one of the two or three main threads that set me off on a different approach to the natal aspect.

One of the things I didn't mention (because I think it's just one isolated expression) is that almost half my list, as either a long-term or short-term-grab-some-cash job, have worked at banks. It wasn't really what their life was about, but it's something natural enough to them that it brought home a paycheck while they worked on what mattered more to them.

Yes, and here is the list of the famous that I collated elsewhere. (These are all conjunctions, oppositions, and squares within 3°.)

REPRESENTATIVE EXAMPLES:
Science Galileo, Werner Heisenberg, Francis Bacon, Marie Curie, Sigmund Freud
Music Bobby Darin, Bob Geldof, Cher, Dionne Warwick, John Lennon, Ringo Starr, Neil Diamond, Placido Domingo, Joan Baez, Lady Gaga
Actor Candice Bergen, Mel Gibson, Woody Allen, Geena Davis, Robert Duvall, Meghan Markle, Sally Field, Martin Sheen
Politics Rep. Paul Ryan, VP Dick Cheney, Rep. Dick Gephardt, Laura Bush, Sen. Marco Rubio, Fidel Castro, Queen Elizabeth II, Pres. William Henry Harrison, Robert Bork, Gov. Bobby Jindal, Konrad Adenauer
Other Gene Roddenberry, Walt Disney, Alex Haley, Harper Lee, Kenneth Anger, Jack London, Bruce Lee, Bill Maher, Don Imus, Jesus, Deepak Chopra, Neil Armstrong, Erik Menendez, Nadya Suleman, Marshall Philippe Petain, Alexandre Dumas, Gustave Flaubert, Marcel Duchamp

What I'm really interested in, though, is the not-famous. For this aspect, I would be drawn to completely different conclusions looking at the famous and the not-famous lists (and that's unusual with most aspects). That leads me to conclude that the particular path of the highly successful is one particular (and probably successful) expression of some other principles - that what we most see in them isn't the actual trait set, just the symptoms of it.

I want to get clear (and the last few days have gotten me well along that road) on what the aspect means for Marion's mom, and the hard-working struggling singer who played Patsy Cline opposite Marion's Louise, and the seven diverse people in yours and my common social circles, and the Australian sex surrogate and part-time bank employee who travelled the world two months out of every year, and … folks like that.

Danica wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:58 am P.S.I just realized: the fact that I'm a Ju-Ur person is obviously affecting the way I see the Ju-Sa people! It's easy for me to see their Saturn with Jupiter, for it's such a sharp difference between that and Uranus with Jupiter.

Me too! This "being careful and making sure things are secure" is baffling! <vbg>

I probably agree with all of your specific observations.

If you go on and just count all the people you have mentioned in this list of famous people, you will find that the majority of them are all very far from "being careful" or "making sure things are safe" ...most of the people you've mentioned have had extreme courage to go against what is safe and orthodox, they have not been particularly careful since many of them had to take great risks to reveal or talk about their ideas or be who they are/were. I haven't looked if they are all Aries luminaries or if they have Uranus to help with this unusual courage to go against the norm. Saturn is not only about limits, it is also about science and politics and having Jupiter in strong aspect to it may be what is needed for science to succeed and expand. Having Jupiter in aspect to it may also be what is needed to "lift above and beyond" the orthodox thinking. Both Saturn and Jupiter are also about property, wealth and money. Warren Buffett has this aspect in opposition (wide in ecliptic, don't know how close in mundo). But he also has Uranus aspecting Jup. He is one of those with a natural talent for understanding money. He is known for going against what the majority of people do, he says that is why he is so rich. “Be Fearful When Others Are Greedy and Greedy When Others Are Fearful”

Danica wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:58 am ...lack of leaping courage... need to feel secure, by holding on to the logic and common sense...

Arena, in looking at the personal list, I agree with you that there is no shortage of courage. I would almost mark "courage" as a Jupiter-Saturn trait based on observing people I personally know with it, though I suspect this is not a direct trait but, rather, arising out of the other basic traits.

Almost to a one, they stand tall and "do their job" (in life, not just in the workplace),even in the face of great hardship or adversity. In fact, most of them seem almost oblivious to the idea of adversity as such (a few have been sent stumbling by it, but not many). I suspect this is part of what has been historically labelled persevering about them.

tendency to generally avoid the unknown when it comes to life decisions... tendency to firmly hold onto perpetuating what-has-been-so-far... the already-established.

I think "generally avoid the unknown" doesn't fit - some of them have moved far outside their comfort zones (though they do seem, in most cases, to go with things that are certain and established ("it just seems the responsible thing to do") when given a reasonable choice.

I'm thinking of a divorced mother of two daughters whose priority was, of course, their security and well-being, but whose methods were to be creative, break expectation, go outside the safety zone though she has an otherwise bold chart - Scorpio-Aquarius). Danica and I have a young friend in common who has been living flexibly, moving across borders and continents, switching from a fine dining waiter to a pot harvester to a whatever, and another common friend who has been free-wheeling her way in and out of somewhat dangerous and fairly opulent Mideast locations plying her flexible trade. A hardworking up-and-coming singer is perhaps best known for her persistence and commitment, but has been applying that through parallel approaches and the flexibility that performers need who want to make it big. All of them are willing to work hard, and almost none of them are stuck in a rut.

Seem to be working toward "conventional" ends - making a living, raising children, using non-traditional methods which require some work and persistance to make pay off.

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:31 pm Seem to be working toward "conventional" ends - making a living, raising children, using non-traditional methods which require some work and persistance to make pay off.

Agreed. And a lot of the innovativeness and unconventionality is from other obvious things in the chart. Most or all of the clearly innovative Jupiter-Saturn people on my list have an Aquarius or Scorpio luminary. Buffet's Jupiter-Saturn is moderately wide, but his Jupiter-Uranus is acute. (He's a better example of a fundamentally Jupiter-Uranus person who is into Jupiter-Saturn things.)

hello all,
I found this site through a web search, started reading this thread. I know this is old, but seeing as this relates to my chart, I'm going to add my two cents. I have Jupiter Saturn conjunct on the 1st/2nd house cusp. These planets are also conjunct venus which is in the 2nd house.

No one who knows me would call me conventional. People describe me as unique, artistic, or "weird in a good way" is one i get a lot. I do sort of compartmentalize my social circles though. Meaning, I can play normal at work etc, or at least more normalish.

I had a rather rough slow start at life, but i've attained a moderate degree of success at this point. I've never been one to follow traditional means but generally prefer to think outside of the box to achieve my goals. I try to focus on what i can do or how i can make something work rather than what i can't do or what would be expected. Some major impetuses in my life have been someone telling me I can't do something, or have to do something

When I was younger i took a lot of joy in shocking people. Thankfully i grew up a bit.

I do have a reputation amongst my family as the keeper of the family history. Partially because genealogy is a major hobby, but also because i've inherited many old photos, documents, artifacts, oral histories etc from my grandparents who i was very close to. I am the oldest of my generation on both sides of my family.

I'm very liberal politically and socially. However I do have an odd attraction complex ritual, and etiquette so long as i don't feel it's being forced on me.

Alinda, welcome to Solunars and thanks for posting.

Are you willing to share your full birth data? I don't know how closer (small orb) the conjunction is or how it fits into the rest of your chart. It sounds like you have at least some of the Jupiter-Saturn traits but that other things are stronger in your character - probably due to the nature of your Sun-sign and Moon-sign, planets closely angular, close luminary aspects, etc.

alinda wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:00 pm No one who knows me would call me conventional. People describe me as unique, artistic, or "weird in a good way" is one i get a lot... I've never been one to follow traditional means but generally prefer to think outside of the box to achieve my goals... When I was younger i took a lot of joy in shocking people. Thankfully i grew up a bit... I'm very liberal politically and socially.

It does sound like the "strike your own path" planets are really prominent in your chart - Uranus and Pluto (possibly Mars and Saturn, too - but you've pretty much told us where your Saturn is). Is this true?

Jim wrote:

That's one problem with this aspect: Jupiter and Saturn have some things in common, but in many ways they are so opposed that the exact outcome is from a "balancing act" of swinging between opposites. I think (though I could be wrong... still working on it) that for most of them Jupiter aspecting Saturn promises reward from hard work, and Saturn aspecting Jupiter slows and grounds one's ambition - the final result (except in the dysfunctional) usually being a balanced, economical approach to life.

I find the above words resonates to Jupiter-Saturn cycles in my life. I was told by a high grade Psychic that Jupiter-Saturn represents an increase of economic growth (Jupiter) as long as the structure (Saturn) is in place, which seems to resonate with your words of "usually being a balanced, economical approach to life". Based on my life, I would rewrite Ebertin's Principle for Jupiter-Saturn combos: Achieving success with structures---indeed a "balancing act" with the polarity of Jupiter-Saturn.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:39 pm
Are you willing to share your full birth data? I don't know how closer (small orb) the conjunction is or how it fits into the rest of your chart. It sounds like you have at least some of the Jupiter-Saturn traits but that other things are stronger in your character - probably due to the nature of your Sun-sign and Moon-sign, planets closely angular, close luminary aspects, etc.

Sure, I was born November 7th, 1980, 1:24 am, in Portsmouth, VA US. All the planets are pretty tight in my chart, so it's always been hard for me to work out.

I have sun, moon, mercury, uranus together in the third house. Perhaps it is Uranus proximity to those planets, though i wouldn't say close enough for a conjunction - 9 degrees from the sun, closest planet.

I also have mars conjunct neptune, and sextile pluto. I think perhaps this may play a big role in my determination to find creative solutions and follow them through. I'm curious to see what you think?

I will add re - saturn / jupiter. I have read before that this brings luck after hard work, and I would definitely say that's relevant to me. Nothing ever works out easy for me. I'm not the kind of person who will win the lottery etc. However, people perceive me as extremely lucky, because things seem to work out how i want them to. But on my end, there was massive effort and heartache - I just choose to keep that to myself. This has perhaps led me to play life on hard mode because when life throws up obstacles, i assume i'm on the right path - which may or may not be a self fulfilling prophesy, but i spend a lot of time trying to brute force my way through life and then, when things re hopeless, something will come out of left field and hand me whatever it was I was after.

Also, regarding ancestor worship, looking around my office, I have old photos of family members who were long dead before i was born. I grew up hearing their stories, and I think i feel it brings me luck/ strength to have their images around me. So, not actual ancestor worship, but i think it informally goes in that vein.

Thank you for that. Yes, "luck after hard work" is certainly characteristic of Jupiter-Saturn. (I didn't use that traditional phrase in the summary here, but said something similar.)

I think my guesses about your chart were all off, though, LOL. I was going by your self-description and, coming through your filters and then through my filters, I got a different picture than I see in the chart itself.

Your Jupiter-Saturn is reasonably strong - not your closest aspect but definitely a strong force. Probably your close Moon-Mercury and Mars-Neptune conjunctions are the closest. And there is no unusual Uranus or Pluto linkage to the angles or luminaries. (Caveat: There's a secondary technique I consider valid that gives you a strong Sun-Uranus link - all 10°-multiple aspects are valid within tiny orbs of 20'-40' (yours is 0°12') - but I'm not going to use that to claim I hit the nail on the head.)

Something that makes your chart interesting and yet difficult to "get a hook on" is that nothing is closely conjunct an angle, you have few aspects, and you have even fewer close aspects. This makes it simple. (You're not simple - nobody with a Mars-Neptune conjunction that close is simple - but the chart is.) Something else that makes it quite interesting, though (and I'm glad you posted initially on this thread) is that you really are a great example of a Jupiter-Saturn person where that aspect exists in a mix with a few other strong factors that paint a different picture.

If you have no objection, I'll start a thread for you in the "Discuss Your Own Horoscope" section and give you a summary of what I see as the strongest factors and their meanings - it won't be a fully synthesized interpretation, but will have the strongest factors sorted and organized a bit and might be of interest to you.

Two things to mention, though, before I finish this current post on this thread.

One is an example of "when there aren't a lot of strong factors in a chart, lesser factors become important." It's that your Sun is within 1° of opposite the planetoid Chiron. Chiron is a factor I consider it entirely valid astrologically but in a "minor planet" category that makes it not all that important to notice most of the time. I did a lot of work on it with a cluster of astrologers in the early '80s, soon after it was discovered, and I completely disagree with the "Chiron means healing or something that needs healing" that has become popular among most astrologers. (Frankly, we all need some healing here and there, and most of us do some healing - that interpretive route isn't very distinctive and seems to miss the point.) Chiron, seen as character, is high-spirited, freedom-loving, and exuberant plus has a strong wisdom theme - both people who are deeply committed to self-exploration and people who open the gates for others to break through barriers they didn't even know existed, even appearing as wisdom-teachers. The basic character, though, is like another Uranus if Uranus were always benignly, generously conjunct Jupiter and had a strong "unleashed wise animal in the woods" streak of Mars in it. Probably "benign, energetic secondary Uranus" summarizes it best.

The other thing - I don't know if you noticed this when you stumbled across this site in your web searches - this is a Sidereal astrology site. If you didn't notice that, then you may be surprised when I start referring to you as having both Sun and Moon in Libra. Given no angularities and few strong aspects, the double-up of luminaries in Libra is a big deal in your chart. Aside from the short paragraphs I'll put in the summary, here are the longer threads with more detail on Sun in Libra and Moon in Libra. (We see the sign as resembling Venus and Saturn, its two dignities.) I think this describes quite a lot that you emphasized about yourself.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p161
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34#p148

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:51 am

If you have no objection, I'll start a thread for you in the "Discuss Your Own Horoscope" section and give you a summary of what I see as the strongest factors and their meanings - it won't be a fully synthesized interpretation, but will have the strongest factors sorted and organized a bit and might be of interest to you.

Two things to mention, though, before I finish this current post on this thread.

One is an example of "when there aren't a lot of strong factors in a chart, lesser factors become important." It's that your Sun is within 1° of opposite the planetoid Chiron. Chiron is a factor I consider it entirely valid astrologically but in a "minor planet" category that makes it not all that important to notice most of the time. I did a lot of work on it with a cluster of astrologers in the early '80s, soon after it was discovered, and I completely disagree with the "Chiron means healing or something that needs healing" that has become popular among most astrologers. (Frankly, we all need some healing here and there, and most of us do some healing - that interpretive route isn't very distinctive and seems to miss the point.) Chiron, seen as character, is high-spirited, freedom-loving, and exuberant plus has a strong wisdom theme - both people who are deeply committed to self-exploration and people who open the gates for others to break through barriers they didn't even know existed, even appearing as wisdom-teachers. The basic character, though, is like another Uranus if Uranus were always benignly, generously conjunct Jupiter and had a strong "unleashed wise animal in the woods" streak of Mars in it. Probably "benign, energetic secondary Uranus" summarizes it best.

The other thing - I don't know if you noticed this when you stumbled across this site in your web searches - this is a Sidereal astrology site. If you didn't notice that, then you may be surprised when I start referring to you as having both Sun and Moon in Libra. Given no angularities and few strong aspects, the double-up of luminaries in Libra is a big deal in your chart. Aside from the short paragraphs I'll put in the summary, here are the longer threads with more detail on Sun in Libra and Moon in Libra. (We see the sign as resembling Venus and Saturn, its two dignities.) I think this describes quite a lot that you emphasized about yourself.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p161
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34#p148

Thank you! I'd be happy to have you post my info on the other thread. I'm always interested in getting another interpretation

It's interesting that you mention chiron because i was pondering it again this morning when i was looking at my chart. I've always looked at it, hanging out opposite everything else... it seems like it should be important, but i've never related to the traditional interpretation of a wound in 9th house matters... long journeys, philosophy, and higher education are the things that make me happiest. There was no wound relating to these things as a child, I was encouraged to pursue them. I'd love to hear your take on Chiron, perhaps that will make more sense.

I was aware this was a sidereal astrology site. I find sidereal intriguing, but don't know very much about it. I did run a sidereal chart for myself before I posted here, so I see how all the signs change. I will say that I've always identified with the heavy Scorpio energy, but I can see more libra as i get older. I have previously attributed that to my tropical progressed sun moving to Libra. However, I'm open minded and your interpretations of Libra sun and moon are also more interesting than what I traditionally see.

alinda wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:41 am I'd love to hear your take on Chiron, perhaps that will make more sense.

I mentioned the main points above as a character description. It's like another Uranus if Uranus were always benignly, generously conjunct Jupiter and had a strong "unleashed wise animal in the woods" streak of Mars in it. Probably "benign, energetic secondary Uranus" summarizes it best.

I will say that I've always identified with the heavy Scorpio energy, but I can see more libra as i get older. I have previously attributed that to my tropical progressed sun moving to Libra. However, I'm open minded and your interpretations of Libra sun and moon are also more interesting than what I traditionally see.

Thank you. - I do think that if I were to pick one single factor in your chart that describes the things that seem "not Jupiter-Saturn," it would be your Mars in Sidereal Scorpio (different from what you're used to thinking of Tropical Scorpio for the most part - basically Mars in a fully Mars-themed zone). It's quite independent, self-determined, striking out (for things or at things), seems "a character" to others. Or, to put it in my original, standard, non-customized language: Determined, hardworking, fervent desire to succeed, hard to intimidate. Sharp humor, willing to be outlandish. Loves to party. Most prefer some “bad girl” in their character, feel it their moral duty to misbehave on schedule, and stay “a little rough around the edges.” Most of the women are high-demand sexual locomotives.

Anyway, the interpretive notes are up in the other thread.

I was just looking at my husband's chart for other reasons, and I noticed his Jupiter Saturn are conjunct must closer than mine, less than a degree apart in the 5th house.

He appears conventional outwardly at least, but but is also very opposed to orthodoxy. This is maybe related to the balancing act Jim suggests.

He is not particularly close to his family but has a respect for the institution of family.

He is not at all conservative politically. Very much of the Noam Chomsky school of philosophy.

Alinda wrote:

I was just looking at my husband's chart for other reasons, and I noticed his Jupiter Saturn are conjunct must closer than mine, less than a degree apart in the 5th house.

Since this conjunction is partile (1 degree or less), this conjunction is felt strong in his life. IMO, his Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in the 5th House has manifested with his views pertaining to growth (Jupiter) and structure (Saturn) pertaining to you, his “girlfriend” and now wife, also to his “children.” In other words, he reacts in a “balanced” manner to the keywords of 5th House symbolism with “girlfriend/children.” How do you view his partile Jupiter-Saturn conjunction working in his life? How long has he worked for the Company that is moving out of town? Would you like for us to look at his charts? Does he have a reliable recorded birth time?

SteveS wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:05 am How do you view his partile Jupiter-Saturn conjunction working in his life?”

He has always seemed to have very strong Saturn. This made sense with traditional astrology because he has sun and Venus in Capricorn. So perhaps this close conjunction has something to do with it. (However, now that i'm looking at his sidereal chart, his sun is at 29 Sagitarrius)

As far as 5th house matters, quoting Jim's house model:

aliveness, freedom, and a spontaneous flowing with selfness...expression of selfness in a particularly unbridled form. Yet this self-expression naturally occurs in the context of others, even in relating, thus generating all of the 5H ideas of romance, playmates, need for acknowledgment, etc.

these are precisely the things he struggles with. Having been raised in a very old fashioned and unhappy family, none of this comes natural to him. It is very difficult for him to express feelings or related to other people. He has a hard time pursuing his own happiness, and I think ulitmately feels as if he doesn't deserve happiness.

He does put a great deal of effort into putting his nature aside to relate to our daughter.

To me, it looks like the influence of Jupiter has been overwhelmed by Saturn somehow.

SteveS wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:05 am How long has he worked for the Company that is moving out of town? Would you like for us to look at his charts? Does he have a reliable recorded birth time?

He has been at the current job for almost 15 years (and disliked it for most of that time.)

His birth time is: 13 January, 1981, 1:05 pm, Anniston, AL
It would be great if you'd like to look at it. Should I start another thread though if this goes outside of Saturn - Jupiter?

alinda wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:09 pm His birth time is: 13 January, 1981, 1:05 pm, Anniston, AL

I'd call this chart very hard-edged. Even with the strong Uranus, it feels brittle. Let me sort through this...

First, he has a combination of Sagittarius Sun and Aries Moon, two "imperial" signs. I haven't reworked my Aries Moon content as much as I'd like (from our review process recently), but it's probably pretty good. I suggest you read through the Sun in Sagittarius and Moon in Aries sections in full:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p163
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34#p154

This is a combination that would be much easier for a man to live with up through the 1950s and early '60s, then much harder with every passing decade. With Sagittarius you need to think of two things first off: (1) What role am I supposed to be playing and how well am I following its ritual? (2) In general, am I good enough? Do I meet my own (or someone else's standard) of being good enough?

The combination - especially with Mars exactly at Midheaven - I would expect to result in feeling he had to "be a man, the right kind of man" in a traditional scripting of that role.

Of course, he could break out of that. Mars exalted and 0°08' from MC, Uranus in a Mars constellation 0°28' the other side of Descendant, the two in 0°36' mundane square - this is bold, creative, breaking bounds, needing freedom. It's also the "rugged individual" type of "I am a man" identification. If it doesn't break out of hereditary and cultural roles and habits then it feels stifled, too constrained - most likely he break out, therefore, because the pressure for dynamic, independent, self-selecting expression is quite strong.

Something on which I don't yet have a handle is that his partile Jupiter-Saturn conjunction is exactly trine that exactly culminating Mars. I can think about each of those aspects individually, but it isn't immediately obvious how the medley works. I think in these two Mars aspects (and how he has lived them out) is a key to him.

And we can't ignore his partile Sun-Pluto square: This isn't a highly social man. He's an outsider, a Sagittarian yet someone to whom it's important not quite to fit in with everyone else if that's inauthentic. Also, don't miss the very important Mars in Capricorn, which probably describes quite a lot about him.

Anyway, those are some first impressions. I'll do a workup of full notes and post them here.

(Remember, we all have contradictions. These are fundamental notes, not a fully integrated balancing of them, and there are definitely contradictions in the character.)

ANGULAR PLANETS & FOREGROUND ASPECTS
Mars square Uranus (0°36' mundo)
Uncompromisingly individualist (but rarely ungraciously so). Bold, often stand out as highly distinctive characters in their circles. Rebel, challenges prevailing thinking, brutally honest. Always into something new, often offbeat. Takes risks psychologically (sometimes physically). Industrious, resourceful, shows initiative. Mentally quick, not necessarily intellectual; knack for astute assessment of situations, analytical, mechanical instincts. Sexually uninhibited, enthusiastic (lifestyle may challenge social standards; actions may challenge the world to try to stop them). Trusts own instincts more than outside advice.

Mars on Midheaven (0°08')
Independent, determined, persevering, self-willed. Aggressive, challenging, needs to win (combative, quarrelsome). On the go, needs to burn energy, impulsive (strong and untiring when young). Courage (physical and moral: forthright, outspoken, argumentative). Dominates, commands. Business leadership, competitive excellence. Strong sexual drives need frequent satisfaction.

Uranus on Descendant (0°28')
Strongly individualistic, independent, going their own way. Needs freedom and breathing room (physical, intellectual) and frequent renewal (through new interests and experiences, shedding inhibitions, shaking loose stale conditions). Responds strongly to the new, unexpected, thrilling, colorful, exciting. Pragmatic realist anchored by naked truth: Prefers disclosure over mystery.

MOON in ARIES
Autonomous, independent, self-sufficient, competitive. Sentiment yields to practicality; cautious with intimacy. Sexually bold, passionate, pragmatic. Assertive (pushy), efficient, decisive, contrary, opinionated (adamant certainty). Respected, easily takes charge, leads. Business instincts, opportunistic.

Moon square Mercury (1°42' mundo)
Intellect fused with the emotions, especially with subconscious patterns; thus, quick at assessment, intuitive, strategic (cagey, deceptive). Personality dominated by intellect and nervous system. Tremendous mental output and capacity to absorb knowledge (apt at languages, good memory). Can seem ‘all business’ in emotional matters and emotionally stubborn in factual ones: Under duress, “reasonableness” competes with reactive emotion.

SUN in SAGITTARIUS
Desires respect, elevation, achievement, to stand out (“higher and higher,” rank, excellence). Generous, hospitable. Loyal to tribe. Principled (stubborn, stiff). Easily ascends to pulpit or lectern. Right-wrong, reward-punishment: judges self and others (may fail own standards). Respects continuity of culture, social rituals, civilization’s fruits. Preserves status quo, heritage, myth. Serial passions. Complacent affection.

Sun square Pluto (0°46')
A “law unto themselves,” “the exception to the rule.” Little respect for arbitrary expectations. Antiauthoritarian, needs to be free from arbitrary or incompetent control. Comfortable as “outsider.” Often seems aloof, unresponsive, but rarely harsh; usually kind, “live and let live.”

Sun square Saturn (1°16' mundo)
Effective survivors, self-sufficient, hardworking, accomplishing. Accustomed to work, few luxuries, preferring private, modest accommodations. Not always good control on strong impulses, but generally very good control of small and medium-sized ones. Authority issues (likely paternal issues) to overcome. Serious; enjoys deep subjects. Childhood hardships common, circumstances force early maturation.

Sun square Jupiter (1°51' mundo)
Generous, kind, warm, amiable, upbeat, tolerant. Visible self-confidence. Strong need for acceptance and friendship. A general dislike of problems. Lucky: confident the universe will bail them out, problems usually resolve remarkably easily, but has a hard time persevering against real adversity when it finally strikes. (Extravagant, prodigal, loves leisure, overly reliant on luck.) Mind is philosophical or religious.

MARS in CAPRICORN
Courage, stands own ground (prefers action to complaining). Confrontational, discontent: creates unnecessary struggle and conflict (over authority, control, father issues). Private, secretive, self-veiling. (Mysterious façade or deceptive; to avoid control, look good, or not be found out). Much unresolved shadow; vulnerable to dark moods; carries around past darkness. Sexually forthright (strong needs + practicality).

Mars trine Jupiter (0°42')
Playful, strong, competitive, enterprising. Zest, vitality, enthusiasm, courage, confidence. Sexually lusty, eager, popular, on the hunt. Generous or extravagant (money flees). Bold with beliefs, evangelical (enthusiasts, missionaries, barnstormers).

Mars trine Saturn (1°08')
Struggle marks these lives (from prejudice or early hardship). Hardened, tough survivors, self-sufficient, seeking control. Some accept the hardship and focus on “getting through”; some act meek, unthreatening; others overcompensate as bullies (feelings of weakness, shame, inadequacy). Conflicts with authority. Serious, reserved, cautious about enthusiasms.

MERCURY in CAPRICORN
A quiet (playfully perverse) pride in their disagreeable opinions and autonomous thinking. Enjoys shock value of spouting unusual ideas. Mind inquisitive, enthusiastic, with a sense of the macabre. Resists being convinced. Careful, methodical, orders information effectively.

Mercury sextile Uranus (2°54')
Independent thinker. Curious and investigative. Mind unfettered by formality solves problems and integrates data more intuitively. Rejects linearity; lacks rigor. Diverse interests, often unusual. Speech is engaging, usually has something interesting to say. Challenges convention or authority, speaks despite consequences (stubborn, pedantic). Gently rebellious, socially odd.

VENUS in SAGITTARIUS
Idealist; committed to vision of world as they feel it should be. Values friendship (sees it as ennobling, honoring). Expects reliable friends (returns the same). Great need to be liked, accepted (nearly always is) and to bring value to a friendship. Warm, sociable, welcoming. Loves fun. Zealous and generous lovers. Needs affection openly declared: dislikes guessing.

OUTER PLANET ASPECTS
Jupiter conjunct Saturn (0°26')
Practical, sensible (especially with finances). Responsible, conscientious, determined. Courageous, effective survivors; rarely halted by adversity. Patient hard work (earning one’s place, success through industry) brings the most reliable rewards. Balances gain and loss: what can be won from losing, what it costs to win (cf. politics, finance; making lemonade from lemons). Attuned to legacy, heritage, tradition. Cornerstones of their families or circles. Orthodoxies draw their strong allegiance or opposition (the most creative become baselines of new orthodoxies).

Neptune sextile Pluto (0°48')
Open to shifting viewpoint, alternative perspectives, variant possibilities: Potential to forge a new worldview and enroll others. Uncertainty feeds desire for certainty, regarding things a certain way and not other.

Though you didn't ask about it, I hope you won't mind a few observations on the way yours and your husband's charts fit together.

First, perhaps the most interesting and useful connection is that his Moon-sign is opposite your Sun-sign and Moon-sign - both of which, even just by sign, are significant marks of compatibility and connection. Opposing Moon-signs work very smoothly together, have much simpatico, feel at home with each other. Moon-sign opposite another's Sun-sign is nearly as good as a Moon-Sun interchange - it has the capacity to link.

The most driving, intense connection is his Mars square your Moon. We've discussed this aspect many times on this forum - enough to say it is legendary! It usually has a most predictable pattern. It needs friction! By that, I specifically mean that it drives sexual attraction ferociously and, while the parties are busy at that, it seems almost surrealistically magical. However, everybody eventually needs a break or interruption and more or less as soon as the copulation is interrupted some other flash-paper ignition of inflammation arises. It can become quite hard, argumentative, hurting. In particular, the Mars person (him) needs a continuing powerful emotional reaction from the Moon person (you) and, in the absence of a positive one, is quite willing to accept a negative one - even prodding Moon to turn and attack. The aspect simply makes no allowance for calm and peace - it is about passion and rubbing two sticks together than have already caught fire.

Probably the most interesting aspect is his Jupiter-Saturn exactly on your Venus. You have your own moderate Venus-Saturn conjunction and wide Venus-Jupiter conjunction, but he brings this sharply into focus with his Jupiter-Saturn within 1° of your Venus. When I see a pattern like this, besides just interpreting the interaction between the two of you, I see that, when you're with him, it draws out more strongly something present yet understated in you: It's as if (when with him) you have a partile Venus-Saturn and Venus-Jupiter - these traits are much stronger in you (or perhaps seen by you as basic to the relationship). They are mixed (even opposed) in nature and both can be very positive in marriage: Venus-Jupiter is gracious, generous, happy; Venus-Saturn is dutiful and devoted more or less regardless of whether one is happy. (Venus-Saturn can also be a burden or distance or separation - the obvious things - but, with this much matching Jupiter, I'm going to go with the positive spin of duty and devotion.) Oh, and his Venus squares your Jupiter closely and your Saturn less closely, so this is reciprocal - maybe as defining of the relationship as the Moon-Mars.

There's more - subtleties such as your Sun also square his Mars (though your Moon is closer), which adds its own touch, more or less a "war buddies" kind of feel among other things - but I think those are the main features.

Thanks Jim, All of what you've said is pretty dead on.

Re your aries moon content - yes, he is very emotionally guarded. He doesn't show emotions really to anyone outside of my daughter and myself, and even then he struggles. Particularly with me.

Definitely this:

Sentiment tends to give way to severe practicality even at the crest of a personal tragedy, because the Aries personality is bent toward the immediate, practical, and efficient, and because he doesn’t want to be held accountable later for emotional gushings.

He is a natural leader, and capable of huge bursts of energy and accomplishment, but this is all tempered by lack of self esteem.
He is always in a hurry, a terribly aggressive driver, quick to be irritated at people's lack of efficiency.

Aries has a technical orientation. His is a mind for mathematics and mechanics, and he is not infrequently found in jobs requiring careful and sure awareness of all the conditions.

. He can take apart anything and figure out how it works. He works in engineering.

This is a combination that would be much easier for a man to live with up through the 1950s and early '60s, then much harder with every passing decade. With Sagittarius you need to think of two things first off: (1) What role am I supposed to be playing and how well am I following its ritual? (2) In general, am I good enough? Do I meet my own (or someone else's standard) of being good enough?

He grew up with a family stuck in the 50's. Extremely traditional. Joined the army at 18 at the insistence of his parents. His dad is a retired officer. That ended poorly and I think he still deals with the guilt of screwing up in his family's eyes.

He has been gradually breaking out that mindset since i've known him. So now he's 40 and I think he has made some good progress, but it's been slow.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:51 pm This isn't a highly social man. He's an outsider, a Sagittarian yet someone to whom it's important not quite to fit in with everyone else if that's inauthentic. Also, don't miss the very important Mars in Capricorn, which probably describes quite a lot about him.

I am very introverted, but i often say he makes me look like a socialite.

From your mars in capricorn:

Some of the most secretive people I know

Very much so. He's secretive about things there are no reason to be secretive about. It's exhausting.

Thanks for the feedback . It has been my lifetime goal to render astrology as a polished descriptor of human character and the dynamics people will be required to confront.

Jim wrote:

Of course, he could break out of that. Mars exalted and 0°08' from MC, Uranus in a Mars constellation 0°28' the other side of Descendant, the two in 0°36' mundane square - this is bold, creative, breaking bounds, needing freedom. It's also the "rugged individual" type of "I am a man" identification. If it doesn't break out of hereditary and cultural roles and habits then it feels stifled, too constrained - most likely he break out, therefore, because the pressure for dynamic, independent, self-selecting expression is quite strong.

WOW, Indeed! This is the first Mars-Uranus Paran (partile mundane square) I have ever seen in any Natal Chart, and no doubt is the planetary signature of his Natal. Combine his Mars-Uranus Paran with his Sun partile 90 Pluto, a most dynamic structured Natal Chart! Alinda, since he did not like his 15 years of working for the Company, Jim is 100% correct about him “needing freedom” in his workplace. If possible, he needs to try to make freedom of work expression his sole objective in seeking other lines of work.
Alinda wrote:

He is a natural leader, and capable of huge bursts of energy and accomplishment, but this is all tempered by lack of self-esteem.

Out of curiosity, I want to see if I can find the midpoint structure in his Natal indicating this “lack of self-esteem.” I will look later. But, he was born with a partile 180 of Mars-Node on the MC-IC axis. Ebertin says about this most important Natal combo with positive expressions:

Collaboration and cooperation. Desire to cooperate with others, comradeship and team spirit. Associations of people working together to a common end or purpose. Attainment of joint or shared successes.

Alinda, I now know astrologically why you know “he is a natural leader” with this dynamic Mars-Node aspect in his Natal. If I were a CEO of a company understanding the astrology I have studied, I damn sure would want him on my corporate team, and would definitely turn him loose with the complete freedom to do his leadership qualities with a team. There is so much Uranus-Pluto symbolism in his Natal, he just needs the freedom to do the leadership qualities he was born to do. If he has time to shop around for the right leadership role for another job/career he needs to stress his leadership qualities in his resume with good self-esteem with any interviews.
Alinda wrote:

He is always in a hurry, a terribly aggressive driver, quick to be irritated at people's lack of efficiency.

Alone with his Aries Moon, your above descriptive words manifests through his Natal Mars-Uranus Signature, it’s the negative of Mars-Uranus which he needs to become conscious of this negative trait.

What are the main astrological cycles he is currently experiencing? Answer: Pluto, big time! He is definitely at an important turning point in his life, probably with lots of inner emotions. Alinda, here is what Donald Bradley, an important Sidereal Astrologer has to say about Pluto tones:

Pluto promises a lively period, for that planet may be relied upon to establish precedents, dramatically bring to end eras in life, and just as dramatically draw back the curtain on new. Pluto effects are swift, sensation creating, and record breaking. It denotes “firsts” in the life; the native usually plays the leading role in the drama which transpires. Its produces “drive” and nerve fraying action.

Alinda, thanks for sharing his birth time and your feedback.

I just saw what you posted here Jim, I think we must have commented at the same time last night.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:32 pm Opposing Moon-signs work very smoothly together, have much simpatico, feel at home with each other. Moon-sign opposite another's Sun-sign is nearly as good as a Moon-Sun interchange - it has the capacity to link.

Yes, our first conversation took off as if we had known each other forever.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:32 pm The most driving, intense connection is his Mars square your Moon. We've discussed this aspect many times on this forum - enough to say it is legendary! It usually has a most predictable pattern. It needs friction! By that, I specifically mean that it drives sexual attraction ferociously and, while the parties are busy at that, it seems almost surrealistically magical. However, everybody eventually needs a break or interruption and more or less as soon as the copulation is interrupted some other flash-paper ignition of inflammation arises. It can become quite hard, argumentative, hurting. In particular, the Mars person (him) needs a continuing powerful emotional reaction from the Moon person (you) and, in the absence of a positive one, is quite willing to accept a negative one - even prodding Moon to turn and attack. The aspect simply makes no allowance for calm and peace - it is about passion and rubbing two sticks together than have already caught fire.

Almost everything you have posted is very accurate with the exception of this. It takes a good deal of effort to keep our relationship from skewing platonic. He has a lot of inhibitions that I don't have, and a much lower sex drive than I do. In my experience, the roles described above are often reversed with us... I'm the one that will prod him into an emotional reaction when he goes flat. Which is something he does. He will avoid an emotional reaction from me if at all possible. He doesn't understand emotional reactions and feels attacked, consequently acts defensively, walls off and shuts down.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:32 pm It's as if (when with him) you have a partile Venus-Saturn and Venus-Jupiter - these traits are much stronger in you (or perhaps seen by you as basic to the relationship). They are mixed (even opposed) in nature and both can be very positive in marriage: Venus-Jupiter is gracious, generous, happy; Venus-Saturn is dutiful and devoted more or less regardless of whether one is happy. (Venus-Saturn can also be a burden or distance or separation - the obvious things - but, with this much matching Jupiter, I'm going to go with the positive spin of duty and devotion.) Oh, and his Venus squares your Jupiter closely and your Saturn less closely, so this is reciprocal - maybe as defining of the relationship as the Moon-Mars.

Yes, I think this goes both ways with us.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:32 pm more or less a "war buddies" kind of feel among other things

definitely this. I feel that we have been through a lot. I can't imagine trying to have a relationship with a "normal" person

SteveS wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:18 am If possible, he needs to try to make freedom of work expression his sole objective in seeking other lines of work.

I have been trying to get him to do this since I've met him. It is very hard to get him to think outside the box as far as his life path. He was raised to plug away at life and suck up dissatisfaction.

SteveS wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:18 am Collaboration and cooperation. Desire to cooperate with others, comradeship and team spirit. Associations of people working together to a common end or purpose. Attainment of joint or shared successes.

Somehow I see the opposite of this for the most part. One reason he avoids leadership is that he really does not like to deal with people at all. He is a great a leader in the since that he is able to take charge of a situation without ego getting in the way, and when he chooses to take charge, people naturally listen and follow along. However, he has very little patience for most people. He doesn't want the responsibility of leadership, and I think that is one reason he is perfect for such a position. He takes his work very seriously, whether he likes it or not.

SteveS wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:18 am If he has time to shop around for the right leadership role for another job/career he needs to stress his leadership qualities in his resume with good self-esteem with any interviews.

This has been what I've been encouraging him to do. I have said that I would rather him take the time and find something he enjoys than live with someone who hates their job for another decade. My biggest fear is that he will sell himself short, and take a job out feeling of obligation that he won't be able to get himself out of... he has a hard time instigating change. I tend to be the one to force change in the relationship.

SteveS wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:18 am Out of curiosity, I want to see if I can find the midpoint structure in his Natal indicating this “lack of self-esteem.”

Steve, this is really just (or mostly) the Sagittarius Sun. Even the healthiest, most "out there" Sagittarians adversely compare themselves to others' expectations of them and their own expectations. Feeling "not good enough" is nearly always Sagittarians' "favorite bad feeling."

I think it's exacerbated here by the Aries Moon and Mars exactly on MC because this psyche needs to be important (or, rather, needs the things in life that are measurements of being important) - needs respect etc.

BTW, from Alinda's subsequent comments I think we're especially seeing the partile Sun-Pluto square manifest - the burden of dealing with other people etc. Sun being at once in Sagittarius and aspecting Pluto can seem a conflict - they fill different needs - there's a challenge between "acting right" and living authentically. This is something a person just has to move through and learn about and grow through over the course of life.

alinda wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:52 am

Jim Eshelman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:32 pm The most driving, intense connection is his Mars square your Moon. We've discussed this aspect many times on this forum - enough to say it is legendary! It usually has a most predictable pattern. It needs friction! By that, I specifically mean that it drives sexual attraction ferociously and, while the parties are busy at that, it seems almost surrealistically magical. However, everybody eventually needs a break or interruption and more or less as soon as the copulation is interrupted some other flash-paper ignition of inflammation arises. It can become quite hard, argumentative, hurting. In particular, the Mars person (him) needs a continuing powerful emotional reaction from the Moon person (you) and, in the absence of a positive one, is quite willing to accept a negative one - even prodding Moon to turn and attack. The aspect simply makes no allowance for calm and peace - it is about passion and rubbing two sticks together than have already caught fire.

Almost everything you have posted is very accurate with the exception of this. It takes a good deal of effort to keep our relationship from skewing platonic. He has a lot of inhibitions that I don't have, and a much lower sex drive than I do. In my experience, the roles described above are often reversed with us... I'm the one that will prod him into an emotional reaction when he goes flat. Which is something he does. He will avoid an emotional reaction from me if at all possible. He doesn't understand emotional reactions and feels attacked, consequently acts defensively, walls off and shuts down.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Sagittarians, as a group, do probably have the lowest sex drives in the zodiac. (I know that doesn't match the "frolicking centaur" image, but it is consistent with very strong Sun-Jupiter behaving the same way. In my years of doing sex therapy, these were the people whose eros seemed generalized into social complacency and other psychological priorities.)

But I would have expected him to be different than this: Aries Moon has intense internal pressures easy to release sexually and an "I need to shoot now" expression. Capricorn Mars is a classic "horny goat," often in the rutting animal variety, while Mars exactly angular has strong physical, aggression, and penetration needs that most people find most pleasurably released through sex. I'd have judged him as rough and demanding sexually - and, it seems, I'd have judged wrong.

I think all these explosive, aggressive, insistent psychological and physical pressures are in him. From what you've said, though, they don't show through. This seems unhealthy and a little dangerous to me. I think it's not just the Sag but especially how his Sag side responded to early environment (parental home).

But that's just me thinking aloud about the chart. You've known him for many years and would have your finger on this much better than I.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:33 am But I would have expected him to be different than this: Aries Moon has intense internal pressures easy to release sexually and an "I need to shoot now" expression. Capricorn Mars is a classic "horny goat," often in the rutting animal variety, while Mars exactly angular has strong physical, aggression, and penetration needs that most people find most pleasurably released through sex. I'd have judged him as rough and demanding sexually - and, it seems, I'd have judged wrong.

I think all these explosive, aggressive, insistent psychological and physical pressures are in him. From what you've said, though, they don't show through. This seems unhealthy and a little dangerous to me. I think it's not just the Sag but especially how his Sag side responded to early environment (parental home).

Thinking on this... I don't think you are entirely wrong, but his sexual instincts are very repressed. He'd rather not deal with the messiness of human interaction. It's certainly not healthy, and very frustrating being the other human in this equation. We have tried therapy for this, but his ability to talk about sex is almost non existent. Almost adolescent in nature, and I do somewhat blame his mother for the old fashioned sex-is-shameful upbringing.

SteveS wrote:

Out of curiosity, I want to see if I can find the midpoint structure in his Natal indicating this “lack of self-esteem.”
Jim responded:
Steve, this is really just (or mostly) the Sagittarius Sun. Even the healthiest, most "out there" Sagittarians adversely compare themselves to others' expectations of them and their own expectations. Feeling "not good enough" is nearly always Sagittarians' "favorite bad feeling.

Jim, my best friend in life is a Sag, and he has a very healthy ego of self-esteem, in fact, his strong order of self-esteem has produced/allowed a very successful businessman and a very strong leader for the people around him.
Jim wrote:

BTW, from Alinda's subsequent comments I think we're especially seeing the partile Sun-Pluto square manifest - the burden of dealing with other people etc. Sun being at once in Sagittarius and aspecting Pluto can seem a conflict - they fill different needs - there's a challenge between "acting right" and living authentically. This is something a person just has to move through and learn about and grow through over the course of life.

I agree. I do not see any midpoints indicating low self-esteem and agree with you, his low self-esteem, I think, comes from his partile Sun-Pluto 90 with its partile aspect structure with Neptune.
Alinda wrote:

He grew up with a family stuck in the 50's. Extremely traditional. Joined the army at 18 at the insistence of his parents. His dad is a retired officer. That ended poorly and I think he still deals with the guilt of screwing up in his family's eyes.

This may be a strong clue his partile Sun-Pluto 90 has wrapped him-up in a strong father complex (overpowering-father), psychologically feeling low self-esteem. Fathers can do that to a son.

SteveS wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:59 am I do not see any midpoints indicating low self-esteem and agree with you, his low self-esteem, I think, comes from his partile Sun-Pluto 90 with its partile aspect structure with Neptune.

I hadn't noticed that his Sun-Neptune semi-sextile is only 0°02' wide! I'm not even sure the semi-sextile exists as a legitimate aspect, but - due to the Novien - every 10° multiple is an aspect, so this is still a very strong contact. (If the semi-sextile isn't legitimate on its own and this is only a Novien effect, we'd expect the aspects only to show strongly with a 20'-40' orb, and that's somewhere around where I see semi-sextiles operate).

In the Novien, it's a 0°15' Sun-Neptune square! That (especially with the Sag Sun) is more than enough. (I hadn't dug into the subtleties of Novien aspects.) Love of drama, music, fantasy, mysticism, general surrealism. Active imaginations. My standard blurb on Sun-Neptune includes, "Self-view is unrealistic or disproportionate (excessively poor or grand)." Sun-Pluto OTOH has no particular self-esteem issues.

Jim wrote:

In the Novien, it's a 0°15' Sun-Neptune square!

Bingo, most likely the main astrological aspect for low self-esteem.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:12 am
I hadn't noticed that his Sun-Neptune semi-sextile is only 0°02' wide! I'm not even sure the semi-sextile exists as a legitimate aspect, but - due to the Novien - every 10° multiple is an aspect, so this is still a very strong contact. (If the semi-sextile isn't legitimate on its own and this is only a Novien effect, we'd expect the aspects only to show strongly with a 20'-40' orb, and that's somewhere around where I see semi-sextiles operate).

So... I understand almost nothing in this paragraph Particularly the Novien. I gather it somehow related to Vedic astrology. I see mentions of it, but not a good description. Can you point me to some resource?

Jim Eshelman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:12 am Love of drama, music, fantasy, mysticism, general surrealism.

From what he has told me, this is what originally drew him to me. Because I had these things in a big way, and he had never really experienced those qualities in someone.

The Novien is a Cyril Fagan innovation based on the Hindu Navamsa. It's the same as a 9th harmonic chart, meaning the zodiac is folded over on itself 9 times.

Fagan s innovation was calculating the Navamsa presuming that the zodiac begins with Taurus instead of Aries. That affects SOME things but not the aspects created.

Basically, by 9x on the zodiac, every 40 degrees is a conjunction, every other 20 degree multiple is an opposition, and every other 10 degree multiple is a square. Orbs are magnified 9x also, so a 20' orb in the natal becomes a 3 degree orb (180') in the Novien or Navamsa.

A lot of Sidereal astrologers that have no interest in thr Novien in general will nonetheless read thr 10-degree multiple aspects with these tiny orbs - just off the natal.

Thanks. I have never looked at harmonics, this is interesting...
I've figured out how to get the harmonic chart (I can't figure out how to get a Novien chart), and I see the tight Sun-Neptune square there. Do we only look at the partile aspects on this chart?

So is this interpreted as something he moving toward?
I see people using terms like destiny for the 9th harmonic...

alinda wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:09 pm Thanks. I have never looked at harmonics, this is interesting...
I've figured out how to get the harmonic chart (I can't figure out how to get a Novien chart), and I see the tight Sun-Neptune square there. Do we only look at the partile aspects on this chart?

I'd say (so you don't go crazy with minutia) only conjunctions, oppositions, and squares within, say, 3°.

So is this interpreted as something he moving toward?

It's really read just like another natal aspect. In fact, you can ignore the Novien/Navamsa and think of it as really just a serious of all 10° multiples as aspects within a tiny orb (0°20-0°40').

I have theorized that, since the Navamsa is specifically a Moon-based chart, it has more to do with underlying subconscious or psychological patterns. Maybe. But OTOH it's often a stretch to say that (or a "how can you tell" thing), so I prefer to interpret it as just more aspects in the chart.

Hint: I can usually get by ignoring it, or only scanning the chart for 10° multiples when a planet doesn't have other important aspects. I looked at yours because you don't have a lot of close natal aspects, and do find a couple: Moon 14°00' Libra and Mars 24°26' Scorpio are 40° - but you can just drop the first digit and immediately see that it's a 0°26' aspect in the 10° series. You also have Sun and Uranus 20° apart that converts to an opposition in the 9th. (I might have mentioned that originally.)

IIRC I have a mundane Saturn aspect to my Moon, Neptune, and Jupiter. I see that Uranus will be transiting my n Saturn. Does this mean it is also in aspect to my Moon, Neptune and Jupiter?

Veronica wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:05 am IIRC I have a mundane Saturn aspect to my Moon, Neptune, and Jupiter. I see that Uranus will be transiting my n Saturn. Does this mean it is also in aspect to my Moon, Neptune and Jupiter?

Not ecliptically, no. - If paran transits are valid, there may be an alternative framework in which this exists, but we won't be able to test that possibility easily until TMSA adds the features.