Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

Welcome to the Moon in Leo discussions project, which will run August 17 - September 16, 2018 (and then will remain around in case people want to revisit it in the future). Please gather your list of Moon in Leo people (especially those you know personally) and join us.

Here are Moon in Leo interpretive resources on the forum:
Primary section: http://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34#p146
Cyril Fagan: http://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f ... p=636#p657
Garth Allen: http://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33#p134
Manilius: http://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=121#p742

My current concise summary of Moon in Leo (always subject to change) reads:

Emotions intertwined with pride. Strong, noble, proud, natural leader, courageous, confident, practical, effective, indomitable. Dramatic; seldom pretentious. Gregarious (court of friends & admirers). Entertainer. Discriminating in romance. Needs warm, affectionate interaction; may retain aloof mask. Business over sentiment.

two people who I have found.
one I admire greatly
one I don't

Angela Bassett, Born August 16, 1958 NYNY no time
James Saville, Born oct. 31, 1926, Leeds Uk no time.

two souls who are both "tv/movie" personalities, both very athletic (Angela just posted a very nice pic. of herself in a bikini at age 60!) and both with a passion for entertaining.

it would appear to me that Angela is very similar to the "nice" version where as Saville went down a much darker path with his passions.

edit: my personal feelings make it difficult for me to honestly reflect sometimes, and I understand that while I may think I know better ways for things to be done, I trust that there are higher forces at work, in each and every soul and every soul in contact with other souls and it is not right for me to let my head be ruled by ego that as always needs to be kept in check with the bigger truths of life.

Thanks. Could you be more specific on exactly what traits you see each of them having?

The goal of these monthly projects is to collate people's observations of explicit behaviors of these luminary positions as a contribution to eventually (hopefully more sooner than later ) revising the 'stock' interpretations I've written over the years - and, more immediately, to increase our understanding.

So... what specific traits do you see in each of these people that led to your assessment above?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Bassett

Emotions intertwined with pride. Strong, noble, proud, natural leader, courageous, confident, practical, effective, indomitable. Dramatic; seldom pretentious. Gregarious (court of friends & admirers). Entertainer. Discriminating in romance. Needs warm, affectionate interaction; may retain aloof mask. Business over sentiment.

Angela ---her work in film primarily focuses on roles of strong black females in a biographical setting. She received her Masters degree in fine Arts from the Ivy League Yale University. In 2018 she received an honorary Doctorial Degree from Yale. She grew up in Harlem, NY but had a challenging childhood filled with separation from her family and home and later her father.
In her chart:
Her Leo Moon is conjunct mercury which would give a strong leaning towards a desire to communicate what she experienced as the emotional rollercoaster challenges of her own life mirrored in what she had learned about other women who were important historical figures in their own right, but had been dismissed by most of society as insignificant emotional woman. She desired to put the spot light on them (the women she portrayed) and show the world what strong, noble, courageous women they were and choose dramatic roles that would allow her the best opportunity to use her own natural traits to give to a new generation of woman roles models who they could easily identify with. Her moon/mercury is strengthened by a mars in trine and Neptune in sextile which would give her dramatic acting a nice boost of creative insight and vital force to bring her roles to life and which I feel is why she is so admired by many women and achieved the recognition (awards) for her roles in the theater and as well her humanitarian efforts to help children and support the fine arts of theater.
Her moon is also widely conjunct Pluto, which would indicate that she has a freedom in her soul to have been able to ride out the tough storms of her early life and keep her chin up and to keep working, not quitting and not underselling herself.

I feel that her Leo moon and its aspects is the factor that not only ennobled her to become the superstar that she is and role model, but that it also gave her the strength as a “disadvantaged” black woman from Harlem and a broken/dysfunctional home to take the risks that she took to enroll and succeed in an Ivy league school. She fearlessly has maintained her own personal integrity and demonstrates beautifully how you cant keep a good woman down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile

Emotions intertwined with pride. Strong, noble, proud, natural leader, courageous, confident, practical, effective, indomitable. Dramatic; seldom pretentious. Gregarious (court of friends & admirers). Entertainer. Discriminating in romance. Needs warm, affectionate interaction; may retain aloof mask. Business over sentiment.

Savile-
His moon is being aspected by quite a lot so it is hard for me to discern, and harder for me to push past my own knee jerk reactions to this, knowing his story. But I would think that if I was to see this chart and not know who this person was and all that, I would suspect that the Leo moon in a man aspected like this would bring about may hidden personality traits (aloof mask), and that it would definitively make think this person is *very* discriminating in romantic relationships (sun/venus widely conjunct sextile the moon).

I do think that it was also his moon aspects that gave rise to his celebrity status, and enabled him to overcome his early childhood struggles and work hard to achieve his personal level of fitness (ie sports, wrestling) success in the entertainment world, and philanthropy. With a leo moon one would be inclined to be a very giving person because of a personal need for warmth and affection, but it is possible that his life challenges played out in his aspects give him a freedom (ego/pride) to express his inner needs in ways that are not considered socially acceptable.

I think it's easy to know somebody's sun placement. Not so much for Moon sign. I have to go look at what I have.

I also am trying to stick to people I know well. Famous people, unless you know them personally (like went through school with them) I don't think that's what you're looking for here.

Agreed. People are more likely to know Sun placement off the top of their head and not Moon. (And yes, personal knowledge of people makes for better, though when I get into these I like to take projects of categories of famous people to compare, such as authors with the placement.)

In case it's clear, I'm also backing off until other people have their say unless there is something specific with which to interact. I've had my first say - what I would post would be the same observations that are already on the sign sections of the site (which are only there because of my observations of people).

I have three people with Moon in Leo in my charts, one is Danica, and one is a friend's ex, whom I have met exactly once, and one I've never met. So I have nothing useful to contribute. Maybe somebody else has something to offer, or maybe Moon in Leos are just thin on the ground.

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:59 pm I have three people with Moon in Leo in my charts, one is Danica, and one is a friend's ex, whom I have met exactly once, and one I've never met. So I have nothing useful to contribute. Maybe somebody else has something to offer, or maybe Moon in Leos are just thin on the ground.

I actually know more of them personally than any other Moon-sign. Three (including Danica, of course) Aries-Leos come immediately to mind. I've dated more Leo Moon women than any other sign (and have lived with one for a decade now) and have oodles of other contacts with it. My Aquarius Moon bias? I'm surprised there aren't more that have swarmed around your Leo Sun

Well, remember I generally run. And anything that swarms get sprayed. I spent half of yesterday with friends who are on to me. They wouldn't let me drive myself and meet them there because I would have left after an hour. As it was, I ended up sitting under a table at the restaurant (I wasn't drinking.) (Yes, I like cheesecake. No I don't like the Cheesecake Factory.)

Some feedback is that several people here don't know Leo Moons personally. While personally known Leo Moons are preferable for more intimate observation, public or historic figures can be a basis for this if you don't know any examples personally.

Here are some historic/public Leo Moons from lists I already have at hand.

On Solunars: Danica, ScarletDepths, Marion

Politics/Leadership: Pres. Wm. Henry Harrison, Pres. Franklin Pierce, Pres. Wm. H. Taft, Pres. John F. Kennedy, Pres. Lyndon B. Johnson, Sen. Edward Kennedy, Sen. Thomas Eagleton, Sen. Carol Mosely Braun, Winston Churchill, Benjamin Disraeli, Margaret Thatcher, Oliver Cromwell, Willie Brandt, Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes, Sec. Rick Perry, Justice Samuel Alito, William Penn, Mayor George Moscone

Royalty: Dalai Lama, Emperor Hirohito, King Fuad II of Egypt, Queen Mary I of England, King Louis XV of France, Princess Anne, Viscount Linley David, Queen Maud of Norway, Rose Lady Windsor

Celebrity: Gina Lolabrigida, Candice Bergen, Courteney Cox, Jodie Foster, Michelle Pfeiffer, Patty Duke, Sara Gilbert, Laurence Olivier, Tyrone Power, Dustin Hoffman, Robert Redford, Harry Dean Stanton, John Travolta, Matthew McConaughey, Henry Winkler, William Dafoe, Jay Leno, Andy Kaufman, Richard Branson, John Jacob Astor VI, Lance Armstrong, Bobby Riggs, Cheiro, Nadya Suleman, Bruno Hauptman, Lyndie England, Angelo Buono

Music: Richard Strauss, Robert Schumann, Henry Mancini, Brian Wilson, Andy Gibb, Dolly Parton, Madonna, k. d. lang, Martha Raye,

Literature: Marquis de Sade, Anne Frank, Jack Kerouac, Gertrude Stein, Paul Verlaine, William Wordsworth, Arthur Schopenhauer, Immanuel Kant, Robert Graves, Frederick Engels, Alan Watts, L. Ron Hubbard

Popes: Pius X, Pius VIII, Innocent XIII, Innocent XII, Urban VII, Pius II, Nicholas V

I have two collegues with the Moon in Leo. They both have a lot of strength and are dominating personalities. When they speak and announce something everybody is quiet, they have a natural greatness and occasionally display bombastic gestures and put up a show. Otherwise they are quiet and gentle, going their own way.

My former neighbor. She is a big lady physically, outspoken and a bit intrusive. Has a royal demeanor. Although with a Sagittarius Sun this is hard to say whether this comes from her Sun or Moon sign. She is an open book on Facebook.

My uncle. Charmingly arrogant. Literate and opiniated. Likeable person but you are always left with the feeling that you are never equal. Dominates a conversation.

Regards,
Flo

FlorencedeZ. wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:40 pm My former neighbor. She is a big lady physically...

These are all great anecdotes, but the line above reminded me of something.

Historically, Leo has a reputation for being large, though more statuesque than rotund. For example, Leo Moons are extemely common among professional basketball players. But there is another type that is tiny. I know several, especially women, who are physically tiny (short, usually slight) but have the large-sized personality you've otherwise described.

With a tip of the hat to Leonard Wibberley, I call them "the mouse that roared."

Jim Eshelman wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:44 pm With a tip of the hat to Leonard Wibberley, I call them "the mouse that roared."

haha, marvellous description. One of the collegues I described is like that, exactly so. Short, with the large-sized personality.

I have a daughter who was born with her Moon in Leo (DOB: January the 6th 1999 Houston Texas at 8:00 am) She is a lot of fun! Currently, she is working as a nursing assistant and going to Collage to become a Certified Public Accountant. She carries a 3.8-grade point average.
Last week she broke off a three-year relationship with her boyfriend (here second boyfriend in her lifetime). He was working on becoming a lawyer at Texas A.M, she told me that she didn’t like what it was doing to his personality.
My only criticism of her is that she thinks that money is everything, she wants to eventually become a financial analyist because she can’t stand the thought of being poor.

Sounds like a great kid but, LOL - that last point shows loud and clear. She's a Sagittarius-Leo but she was born vulnerable to insecurity. If the 8 AM birth time is exactly right, she has Saturn square Ascendant and Neptune in Capricorn rising. (Even if the birth time is a bit off, she has Moon almost exactly sesqui-square Saturn.)

As a parent, it more or less wouldn't matter what you did, she was going to grow up vulnerable to a deep sense of insecurity. The fact that it only shows in material ways - that she seems like a wonderful, healthy kid otherwise - does you credit.

Yes, the 8:00 am birth time is correct. I don't want to turn this into a Saturn-Moon aspect discussion. So, I just want to note, that she doesn't drink or smoke and is leaning towards being a vegetarian.

My Ex of 2 years (on and off) is an Aries-Leo. My ex before her is a Scorpio-Leo. I was stalked in high school by a Scorpio-Leo and was good friends in high school with a male Scorpio-Leo. All shorter than average but not like little people.
Sorta tom boyish.(Unless its from the Martians) Girls can hang with dudes and compete, have fun, fit in. Their laugh and smile are great, big. Romantically see themselves as catches. Toot their own horn.
Leo moons are easy for me to get along with (for the most part) in that they bring out in me a more steady, grounded outlook, are simple, stable, and trustworthy in a way in that they don't B.S, aren't petty. They aren't too annoying, or loud or confusing. They are decent. Not foul, rude or offensive. They can be fun in a simple way. I see in them this deep courage of being themselves no matter what, and this warm acceptance of simple things.
But, they do want their way and have a way of getting it. They can have intense focus in wanting their message across for clear understanding and/or to show who's boss. Definitely leaders.
They pick up on my ways pretty fairly and aren't judgmental but rather assertive and natural to give me simple observations. Dominating for sure in a way. Hubs are good observers of truth. They make requests, give hints in a fair yet selfish way. Like to say "I hope"..
They get allot of attention. Like to sing their favorite songs while head bobbing, little dances. Warm, gentle, cute, glowing, playful, beautiful in a bedroom, femininity, after orgasm.

I was just reading through this after reading the brief summary versus Jims hashed out notes of the sign. I hope that in the summary something about mental sharpness and the aim to be perfect like a sharp straight blade are added to the general statement.

Im also curious as to why so many Leo (Sun/Moon/Mars) are astute and sharp minded.

Having pluto here (and maybe being in the eighth house) i don't always agree with the whole proud thing however (maybe there is a better word).

And perhaps im just utterly confused as an introverted fire sign heavy person.

I was mulling over this again but I think there is some difference between the way a Moon and the Sun act in the sign of the sickle. I think I want to say the radiance in the Moon folk I meet is more alluring than the often more bold charisma I see in Leo Sun's and I think different people interpret this as other things (playfulness, aloofness, warmth). I'm not honestly always warm in fact the real me is literally apathetic because I just don't actually care about most things and people, but people still find me warm and personal. People tend to think I'm flirting or say I'm being cold or warm in a certain situation when the whole time I'm just doing my thing and when people use the kinds of words to describe me... I'm just lost they are making it up. Again though I'm saying too I'm actually an introvert but people wouldn't think it.

I have completed my substantial rewrite of Moon in Leo and, as always, thank all of you for your participation in this project. The full treatment can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34#p146

Summarizing Moon in Leo as STRONG, STATELY, ENTERTAINING, my concise summary is tweaked just a little and now reads:

Emotions intertwined with pride. Strong, stately, courageous. Instinctive leader or mentor. Confident, pragmatic, hard to intimidate. Dramatic but seldom pretentious. Entertaining, gregarious, delights in things. Genuinely warm but with a cool demeanor. Loyal, generous friend. Lusty, forthright, and pragmatic in love and sex.

I like this though I think the word(s) (mentally) astute could be missing.

Soft Alpaca wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:30 am I like this though I think the word(s) (mentally) astute could be missing.

I went back and forth over that. While it was true in a striking way of a small majority of Leo Moons I know, it didn't quite make the 70% cut-off point I use for assessing traits; and, where I could almost shoe-horn it in, it seemed to miss the main point.

I do think that most Leo Moon's tend to be, or at least seem, quite mentally sharp. However, what's more solidly true is that they (perhaps unconsciously) convey an air of confidence, certainty, and authority. I don't mean at all that they are frauds - just that their most common default state is an air of certainty and authority. People tend to gravitate around certainty, tend to confuse it with accuracy, and tend to mistake it for intelligence.

Jim I do notice this more in the type of Leos who are like me (I'm 5'9 weigh 160ish) I'm slender compared to many of my friends they call me lanky, more so than the intimidating type (not that I'm not intimating- people tell me often they are afraid i'd haunt them if they crossed me- not sure why) I tend to find this smaller mousey type to be more so astute than the brawny brash lion type. Also I would tend to see athletics vs artistry in the lion vs mouse. I think I rambled about this a very long time ago so something about cubs (the mouse that roars) vs lions.. when I'm confronted I often just stay calm and do nothing mind you, I think my own "confidence" is actually me being patient because I have anger issues and Im a silent angry type.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:02 am However, what's more solidly true is that they (perhaps unconsciously) convey an air of confidence, certainty, and authority. I don't mean at all that they are frauds - just that their most common default state is an air of certainty and authority. People tend to gravitate around certainty, tend to confuse it with accuracy, and tend to mistake it for intelligence.

You know those old "there are two kinds of people" memes from the 60's?
One I like is there are neurotic people who, when they differ with most of the world believe they are wrong, and psychotic people who think the world is wrong.
For example, about 18 months after buying this house, the developer sent letters to all homeowners on this street that we had to move our fences because they were encroaching on the lots whose backyards backed up to ours.
Most people set about getting their fences moved. I didn't. I called the surveyor who did the original plat and said what? The surveyor came out and discovered the street behind us had had it's stakes moved so was twice as wide as it should have been, and the developer was trying to take our land we already paid for so he could sell those properties with the full 58' yard he was advertising.
For another, more than 50 years ago now, some people had all dropped some acid, and after awhile, all were saying the room was crooked. The Leo walked over to a floor lamp, picked it up, and kicked the rug under out flat. "WOW you fixed the room!"
Some people look for direction from outside themselves, and some, including, I think, Leos, look within themselves.

In other words, "I'm always right. It's a curse."

I have had two kinds of experiences generally with Moon-Leos...

On one hand, a few people I know fit all of the revised descriptors. They are all very dignified and noble people, fantastic and generous friends, champions for the underdogs, and proud in a very honorable and loving way.

On the other hand, I have known a few people with Moon in Leo that have totally isolated themselves emotionally from other people by their pride. In both cases, the other people claimed to know exactly what I needed to do to be my most authentic self, which seemed to happen with everyone these people came to know personally. Most of the time these claims aligned with their personal values, not with an observed understanding of the uniqueness of the other person. This made for a breakdown in communication, there was no convincing the other person that my inner reality did not align with their outer expectations. Also in both cases, these people naturally took on a mentorship role, which made a power disparity that was uncalled for most of the time. They seemed to feel unnatural not being the leader or teacher in the group, and reacted to this aggressively, attempting to devalue the competition in some way.

I just wanted to add in a few comments about the shadow expression of Moon-Leo that I have witnessed personally. It seems that the shadow aspect of Leo tends not to be discussed as often, which I think I know why... the Leos I know tend to be really warm and lovely people. But for some reason, my biggest interpersonal conflicts have always been with Moon-Leo people.

Fascinating input and, yes, I can see some of the themes you mention quite vividly. Authenticity does seem to be strikingly important to at least a significant block of them -0 what they see as the only thing that is truly vital in life.

As for the negative traits not being discussed... several things I've written about them are neutral, that can go "good:" or "bad." (This is intentional, and what I've generally done with all the signs.) Some of the (bad because overdone or misplaced) things you mention come under general, neutral phrases like, "Desire for power (to be positioned to make a meaningful difference)." Whether they have other traits that will let them make a meaningful difference is independent of the fact that it is enormously important to them to be positioned where they have the most opportunity to do it. Also, one of my favorite passages I've written about Moon in Leo (because it is so anecdotal and yet so representative and recognizable in nearly all of them) is:

In teaching (which can be in a conversation [even with a stranger] on the street!), will interrupt to explain something in agonizing detail for your own good because Leo is certain you can't understand what they really mean without so full an explanation.

You and I both have Hub Moons so we're both going to be drawn to other Hub Moons. As an Aquarius, I'm going to have a slightly different innate response to them than you - same or opposite Moon signs have the most natural simpatico - but square Moon-signs are hardly at odds per se and usually have great commonality. (My longest term relationship, and dear friend long after that, was a Scorpio Moon, for example.) I don't know what might make this group of people so frequently in conflict with you, though it's easy to see why you would be so drawn to each other.

Hmm... one of the most pronounced trait of strong Mars-Uranus aspects (your conjunction is 0°37') is trusting one's own instincts more than outside advice.

Another piece of feedback, if I may: When researching and writing about Sun in Sagittarius, something I ran into - over and over again - that there is no sign (not even Aries) more resistant to being told how they are or what they are like than Sagittarius. It was one of the hardest writing tasks of my life to write something that Sagittarians would recognize and accept as "Yes, this is how I am" AND that non-Sagittarians would also recognize as, "Oh, yeah, that's how they are!" If I had to pin it down more than that, I think I'd say that Sagittarians are more likely to accept someone's observations of how they behave (actions) than of what their motives are. - And, of course, this resistance becomes much stronger if the outside observation is indeed quite wrong.

Yes, and in some cases the Moon-Leo people I have met who value authenticity above all else are confused when they express their authentic thoughts and emotions that end up hurting people. The two people I am thinking about have a strong Sun/Saturn/Mars/Venus element to their charts, I'm not entirely sure how that shows up exactly, but the lunar Leo energy part seems to come out in a war-like manner. I'm not pinning these people into a "bad" categorization (I'm really trying to break out of that Sagittarian impulse), in both cases, I was very close to them, fundamentally changed by them in some way, then burned by them. They both have affected a fair amount of change in the lives of people closest to them, but this change tends to be on the destructive, fiery side.

In other instances, the value of authenticity produces exceptionally honest people emotionally. I have learned a lot from some Moon-Leo friends when it comes to embracing life's circumstances honestly with joy, even if things are difficult or unconventional. (What a terribly Jupiterian thing to say! lol... I have struggled with being myself in the face of societal convention.. but, I am getting better at it, thanks to my partner and solar/plutonian friends.. which there are many!)

That quote is hilarious because it is so true! I appreciate the neutral traits.. perhaps it is my perception that is painting the illusion of valuation in particular traits in signs over others. I'll have to look into that more deeply. I definitely value Lunar and Venusian traits very highly, sometimes wishing I was born under their influence instead of Saturn and Mars.. perhaps a product of longing to fit into the feminine niche I have a hard time fitting into.

I do feel like I tend to understand Hub Moons more quickly than other Moon placements, I don't know exactly what it is... but there is an ease in communicating with them, like the mind revolves around similar qualities of thought, or we both find similar things important. Interestingly enough, I tend to be closest to Rim Moons lately, with Hub Moons close but seen less often, and Spoke Moon friends even more out there, seen only one or two times a year. I think Rim Moon people help balance out my desire to sit around thinking either about the principle of the thing or the various possibilities that may come out of the principle.. I spend more time focused on mine and other's actions while with Rims.

Yes, haha.. I can see that! It took me many years of fighting what you wrote about Sagittarius until I came to a little bit of peace with it. Definitely the parts about motives bothered me most. I was not a fan of thinking that I am motivated by my desire to be high on the social ladder... that just twisted my insides up. Also, the part about "right vs. wrong," and "reward vs. punishment," was very hard to swallow.. being that I am trying to embody moral relativism in my life. Though, a lot of fighting came from my personal view of what is "good" or "bad" behavior (lol).. so, there it is again. Revelation came in the form of taking charge of how I orient myself to these observations, some are true, others not so much.. yet the principle is neither good nor bad until brought into application.

I am not the biggest fan of other people claiming to know me before even giving me the chance to express myself. But, I don't make it particularly easy, I classically take a ridiculously long time to open up entirely. I can see how those Leo-Moons disturbed particular sore-spots unique to me. Though, I don't believe my observations are purely subjective. There is a pattern that seems to affect people negatively, seen in the fact that both people have slowly become more alone and isolated due to burnt bridges.

Hannah wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:03 pm I appreciate the neutral traits.. perhaps it is my perception that is painting the illusion of valuation in particular traits in signs over others.

Ironically, to the extent I've succeeded in treating the majority of characteristics neutrally, this means that the traits in question are the ones that you value most - otherwise, you wouldn't usually see them as positive value. Leo does tend to naturally manifest traits that have high social value and respect (although that fact, by itself, is neither positive nor negative).

Or there is the societal valuation. Such phrases as "instinctive leadership" tend to have very high social value, whereas all it really means is that, without necessarily thinking about it or planning it, they start setting the agenda, walking in front, etc. (It, of course, also means all those things that are unambiguously positive. But the fact that someone starts leading is never a guarantee that they will be a good leader.) Even "gregarious" is negative if you don't want someone around, "lusty and forthright" is negative if you don't want to have sex with them, "longer lifespan" is negative if you really wish they'd just die!

OTOH, those of us with Aquarian luminaries tend to naturally express a lot of traits that society as a whole does NOT like. I'd like to think that these, too, are really neither good nor bad - just things that other people usually don't like. Society needs both people who embody and see themselves at the center of its most valued expressions and people who embody and see themselves at the center of its least valued. (Pre-Uranus, and in India to this day, Aquarius is identified with the "untouchables" - which, nonetheless, are a specific necessary part of their social structure, just as scavengers are needed in nature.)

I'll have to look into that more deeply. I definitely value Lunar and Venusian traits very highly, sometimes wishing I was born under their influence instead of Saturn and Mars.. perhaps a product of longing to fit into the feminine niche I have a hard time fitting into.

Sagittarian roles . And, you do have a Scorpio Moon. "Fundamentally Sagittarian, but with a Scorpio style," as I've started phrasing it.

I think Rim Moon people help balance out my desire to sit around thinking either about the principle of the thing or the various possibilities that may come out of the principle.. I spend more time focused on mine and other's actions while with Rims.

Perhaps... and I also have noticed in you a streak of really wanting to break out and get in trouble more. That's something Rim Moons are best at: Getting in trouble (with themselves, with others, with society). In any case, not a bad balance for a Spoke-Hub to assimilate.

I am not the biggest fan of other people claiming to know me before even giving me the chance to express myself.

I understand that can be off-putting. Nonetheless, the world has a certain number of people with a native and/or trained capacity to do exactly that. (I don't mean to say that all such people are always right. It doesn't work that way.) - Also, I find that last phrase interesting: You do express yourself from the moment an eye lands on you. (I mean this about everybody, not just you.) You don't have to say anything ordo anything in particular: Your presentation, your body language, and all sorts of subtleties communicate some mixture of who you are innately and how you have forged your socially-expressed identity. Given the fairly low percentage of people who really understand themselves, it's not surprising that people with a natural gift or special training can know most people faster and deeper than they know themselves.

But, I don't make it particularly easy, I classically take a ridiculously long time to open up entirely.

Yes. First time I saw you perform was a revelation, since you had kept that entire side tucked away where I hadn't noticed it. That's at least partly the Scorpio Moon.

There is a pattern that seems to affect people negatively, seen in the fact that both people have slowly become more alone and isolated due to burnt bridges.

Then again, Aquarian Moons usually draw negative responses from people. Even when admired and valued, people don't necessarily like them. Their job, to some extent, is to upset people and especially to stand against automatic alignment with social consent or herd mind. Coming from a starting point of, "If most people think it's true or value it, then it's probably {bs}" and thinking "popular" is an insulting, negative trait are not the fastest ways to make friends.

Scorpio Moons have their own bears to cross. I think they value social connection more than Aquarius, so they instinctively withhold more until they've navigated social connection some other way.

Would these Leo-Moons who are authentic and perhaps cutting (rather than shady I think this fitters better) have other shared patterns (were they born am or Pm, did they have pluto or saturn (possibly neptune/uranus) with the moon, did they have moon in the eighth house?).

I have both a Pluto and saturn aspect to my eight house moon, when you add the weight and polarity from the aspects the moon will mold itself - I may be thinking incorrectly but don't moon in Leos in the 8th house tend to have supper Aquarius like traits. Here's why perhaps authenticity comes into play, a sense of inner radiance reflected through the eighths house interpersonal lense of loss. It's distinct that their are a type of leo who direct or manifest their radiance differently than outward (the physical bold gut feeling type) and more so inward (the authentic, artistic, and mentally astute type).

Jim your sort of right I like when people call out my actions a little (perhaps my capricorn) but my motives are never always clear unless I state them. That being said I may tend to not care if people mess my motives up unless it makes them involved with me somehow (without my consent) in which case I bail.

As for Hannah I'm with Jim on the breaking motif in your chart. Is the Scorpio-Ophiuchus-sagittarius part of you chart filled or dotted with planets/angles/bodies? Also did you notice in any of our conversation my leo moon? It isn't the big bold physical type.

Soft Alpaca wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:09 am I may be thinking incorrectly but don't moon in Leos in the 8th house tend to have supper Aquarius like traits.

That's the only Hub that doesn't have an excuse. Leo, of course, would be evident in a Leo Moon. By one or another house theory, 8th House is themed either to Scorpio or Taurus. But... I don't get where you get an Aquarius connection.

Being born AM or PM depends on where you were born, so that's not really something that is likely to have any effect on anything. Some astrologers look at between dawn and sunset, or "below" the earth or "above" it, but that's also a function of where you were born. You should probably look at the mundoscope for that sort of thing, but I doubt there's anything to it.

Most of this stuff was purely observational anyway. Perhaps if you used Formilabs skymaps you could get closer to the houses. BTW, which house system are you using?
Here's a link to approximately the last place I knew you were. (Newville, Cumberland County, PA near the post office. If you need another place google it, right click and pick up the longitude and latitude, and use that for the sky maps.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/Yourhor ... &elements=

@Jim: I am tripping out on the projection stuff in the values I have unconsciously packed into your descriptions, a lot to look at there! It would be a very grey world if all people acted within the same value system... it makes me think of a kid's book called The Giver about a perfectly controlled grey land without any differences and the one person who has the role of storing all previous memory of pain/pleasure/color/cold/heat and all polarities of life experience. It is a really great book.

And I can never know exactly the "big picture" that makes a person act in a way that appears to me to be problematic to their health or well-being. From my current viewpoint, the theory goes that each individual has their own "right" and "wrong" way to act... so, really I should keep out of other people's process with my views of "right" and "wrong." But I can't help but wonder about the borderline of subjective vs. objective realities... and how to keep things within their own plane. There are laws that govern the material plane, but it is hard to tell sometimes the origin of some laws... are they societal, instinctual, natural, etc.? Your Virgo ways makes me so much more careful of choosing words! haha.. I still have more work to do with language skills.. I might not have been as clear as I could have been. I guess I am just coming to the conclusion that it is better to not know than to guess to know, especially concerning other people's affairs. That doesn't stop me from reacting to other people who I have conflict with, like the Leo Moons mentioned.. but at least I am free of the error of assuming I know what is best for them.. that's silly, but I am human.. and I have to remind myself this again and again.

Yes, haha that is one of my life's polarities to work out! I remember you saying that I really want to behave but I really don't want to. I have been getting in trouble more.... maybe it is the Uranus transiting my Mars/Uranus? Or, maybe my rebelliousness is coming out more during the chaos of 2020? The stress has been real. I could also be inspired by my trouble-making rim friends! haha which now that you mention it, I didn't really start getting into trouble until I made friends with a Rim Moon in middle-school lol. But, really I have noticed that Z with his Rim Moon is more concerned with the actions that can be seen rather than speculations or reasons behind actions. I'm not sure if this is a product of Rim luminaries, training, or something else. But it has helped me get out of my head more, I am more concerned with communicating by my actions than words with him.

On other people's analysis of me: I hear you... and I think some of my discomfort around that is not having the power to control what is seen or not seen. I know some people may see things in me that I don't see in myself, which makes me squirm a little or a lot depending on the situation. For some reason, I am more likely to feel guilty when this occurs.. like what they are seeing must be bad. I blame it on Moon-Saturn-Neptune and a Baptist/old-school disciplinarian upbringing in a brief stint during my childhood. To be totally honest, you and other people I well know peer through veils much more easily have that effect on me. But maybe this is not the case so much anymore, the more I know about myself.. especially without a morality lens and with awareness that I can effect change on my personality if I need to... the more I am comfortable with being totally myself, but still much more work to be done! But there are certain scenarios where it really seems like another person has a false idea of who I am based off their interpretations of my actions, but again, I can't control their reaction to me...

In the Moon Leo cases, they might have been on to something in their perception of me.. but I guess, it was the way in which they tried to force me to their conclusion that broke the friendship. I need freedom in my friendships to discuss feelings and thoughts without fear of them being used against me to suit their agenda. Which is what it kind of felt like to be friends with these particular Leo Moon people. Especially one from my early years, who went to very great lengths trying to convince me that he understood what my Will was, listing all the ways in which I am turning my back from my "true purpose." There seemed to have been a rigidity in his thoughts on authenticity, especially in other people. He had Sun/Saturn/Pluto.

"If most people think it's true or value it, then it's probably {bs}" lol! Seems like a fun way to go about life, an hermit iconoclast way of life, that is! Yeah.. sometimes I wish I was more like that. I need social connection but have a hard time fitting in most of the time.. I have this feeling that most people generally like to be around people that make them feel good, at least that is the prevailing social role I try to fit into. So, maybe I just got to step out of the box and accept that I won't always make people feel happy and good when they are around me.

Also.. sorry about the lack of quote boxes, still trying to navigate this site. I'm not the most tech-savvy person, but I'll figure it out eventually!

Soft Alpaca wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:09 am Would these Leo-Moons who are authentic and perhaps cutting (rather than shady I think this fitters better) have other shared patterns (were they born am or Pm, did they have pluto or saturn (possibly neptune/uranus) with the moon, did they have moon in the eighth house?).

I have both a Pluto and saturn aspect to my eight house moon, when you add the weight and polarity from the aspects the moon will mold itself - I may be thinking incorrectly but don't moon in Leos in the 8th house tend to have supper Aquarius like traits. Here's why perhaps authenticity comes into play, a sense of inner radiance reflected through the eighths house interpersonal lense of loss. It's distinct that their are a type of leo who direct or manifest their radiance differently than outward (the physical bold gut feeling type) and more so inward (the authentic, artistic, and mentally astute type).

Jim your sort of right I like when people call out my actions a little (perhaps my capricorn) but my motives are never always clear unless I state them. That being said I may tend to not care if people mess my motives up unless it makes them involved with me somehow (without my consent) in which case I bail.

As for Hannah I'm with Jim on the breaking motif in your chart. Is the Scorpio-Ophiuchus-sagittarius part of you chart filled or dotted with planets/angles/bodies? Also did you notice in any of our conversation my leo moon? It isn't the big bold physical type.

The biggest shared pattern is a relationship between their Sun/Saturn/and Pluto.

I don't understand houses and was under the impression that they aren't too important. Haven't really looked into them on my own, though.

I have noticed that you are unapologetically confident and will continue to drive home a point until you come to a realization by yourself about it. You also seem like a generous person, sharing what you know if you think it will help in some way. So, yes.. I suppose I have noticed the Leo Moon!

Hannah wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:36 pm I don't understand houses and was under the impression that they aren't too important. Haven't really looked into them on my own, though.

We don't use houses, but Soft Alpaca is/was studying with a Hindu/Vedic astrologer and he persists with the houses no matter how many times we remind him. Sorry it confused you.

Hannah wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:28 pm ...I have noticed that Z with his Rim Moon is more concerned with the actions that can be seen rather than speculations or reasons behind actions. I'm not sure if this is a product of Rim luminaries, training, or something else. But it has helped me get out of my head more, I am more concerned with communicating by my actions than words with him.

As a generalization, Rim's value more what is on the outermost, Hubs value more what's in the depths, Spokes run back and forth between the two, and there are all sorts of factors that could make any of that look or be different in particular cases. But the generalizations are pretty sound.

On other people's analysis of me: I hear you... and I think some of my discomfort around that is not having the power to control what is seen or not seen.

One of my favorite quotes is, "What you think of me is none of my business." Not true in certain practical situations, but otherwise, I think, a pro-sanity approach to life.

That wasn't anything vedic either. Moon in that section is in an odd place this pattern exists within actual sidereal work I do. Themes of loss are especially familar at the very least. How can such a radiant sign in this position not be a bit darker/jaded/cutting?

But I'm not chalking it up to anything more than that.

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:53 pm Sorry it confused you.

No worries.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:06 pm One of my favorite quotes is, "What you think of me is none of my business." Not true in certain practical situations, but otherwise, I think, a pro-sanity approach to life.

I like that, I'll try to carry that more into my daily life. Thanks.