Novien and Navasma questions

[Soft Alpaca]

Typically I use Navamsa chart in lahiri ayanamsha, should I be using Fagans instead? How about in the novien chart?

For looking at signs, my Leo Moon stays the same in both Navasma and Natal charts is this of any importance?

Is the novien chart more important than the navamsa in terms of reading and interpreting signs?

Do connections between planets in the natal and navasma charts matter, how about in the novile?
[For example my Novien Sun is within x degrees of my natal Venus does ot mean anything, if so what are the orbs?)

[Jim Eshelman]

Typically I use Navamsa chart in lahiri ayanamsha, should I be using Fagans instead? How about in the novien chart?

Ayanamsas are not something you can pick and switch like changing clothes for a different event. There is only one zodiac - one, not many - though there are many theories about the zodiac that are necessarily exclusive of each other. Bottom line: Use the Synetic Vernal Point (popularly called the Fagan-Bradley or Fagan-Allen definitions) for all astrological work.

Despite the noise of competing assertions, the one thing we know with greater certainty than any other single fact in astrology i the exact boundaries of the zodiac.

Your other questions have been addressed extensively here over the years. You would benefit from using the search engine for the site to research things about which you are curious. There is much we don't know (that is: we may have theories, and our various theories but without certainty), so we're still in the space of competing theories on Navamsa/Novien matters. I'll give quick answers to a few of your points below as starters, then please research the archival discussions around the site using the search engine.

Navamsa vs. Novien: You act like both might be valid. That would be a mistake unless we are only interested in the internal aspects. One then needs to determine which of the two frameworks (if either) is objectively valid. This has not been a high priority of mine so, after 40 years or so on the subject, I don't have a lot of answers I consider firm.

Is the novien chart more important than the navamsa in terms of reading and interpreting signs?

It has not been firmly determined whether the Novien or Navamsa is the correct version (presuming either of them is objectively valid).

Do connections between planets in the natal and navasma charts matter, how about in the novile?

I don't understand what "how about the novile" means in this sentence. The novile is a 40° aspect, and you seem to be using it as if it were a kind of chart. A novile (40° aspect) in a birth chart will become a conjunction in the Navamsa/Novien.

Aspects between natal and Novien or Navamsa: It has been asserted that these are important (it's a popular theory). I don't think we have a final answer on this. For one, we don't have an answer on the question of whether the Novien vs. Navamsa is the correct chart (if either). Second, we don't know if they are objective planet positions, to be treated as "real things," or just a visual representation to disclose 9th harmonic aspects. I am 100% certain that the close conjunctions, opposition, and squares within the Navamsa/Novien are valid, important aspects, but this would be true if it were just a way to disclose micro-aspects every 10° in the birth chart.

If they are objectively valid - truly another set of the same planets - then the work I have done biases me toward the Novien being the correct form. This is from two kinds of intentional observations:

1. Transits: I have watched transit to Novien/Navamsa Moon for a few years now. One thing about which I'm certain is that transits to Navamsa Moon are invalid - there is nothing to them - a few examples have been grossly contradictory and most are "dumb notes." OTOH transits to Novien Moon have not been strong and vivid. I've seen some minor confirmations, one strong confirmation, a lot of unclear or misses, and - this is important - no gross contradictions. So, if one or the other is real in this particular sense, I think it' likely the Novien.

2. Interchanges: I have seen some striking connections between one person's Novien and a significant other's chart. My own chart is a good example - I've been with more Libra women than any other Sun-sign and my Novien Moon is in Libra, about 2° from my first wife' Sun, minutes from square the Venus of a women I spent decades with, etc. My Novien Sun, Venus, and Mars mark degrees that appear abundantly in the charts of all the most important women in my history. (For example, my current mate / fiancée / best friend / woman I'm spending the rest of my life with has her Sun-Moon square about a degree from hitting my Novien Venus. Her Venus-Neptune opposition is to the degree of my Novien Mars.) This doesn't prove out with Navamsa. I'm not yet convinced we have enough data to confirm that "there is something here," but, if there is, it leans Novien instead of Navamsa. (I have seen contradictory aspects in this approach, too, but not often are extreme.)

This relates to the question of whether Novien positions to the natal chart are valid. If there is something objective to the planets, then it seems there would be. I'd love to think that my Novien Moon-Mercury is right atop my natal Jupiter-Uranus, but that could be wishful thinking.

[For example my Novien Sun is within x degrees of my natal Venus does ot mean anything, if so what are the orbs?)

I recommend keeping it conservative. Give first priority to 1° orb, don't go past 3°while making up your mind. Remember, the more aspects you add/allow, the easier it is to fool yourself into thinking something is there that isn't.

[Jim Eshelman]

What you may consider my most controversial view on this Novien/Navamsa matter is that I have come to question whether sign-meanings have any validity. This is especially controversial in that sign-placements, especially of the Novien (or Navamsa) Moon, is usually the first thing that people leap for when exploring the system. (It's certainly the first thing Fagan went for, and the basis of most of his interest in the subject.)

Some thoughts on this:

1. For years I would try to address the Novien vs. Navamsa question by asking, "So, which Moon position fits the person better?" For example, do I have a secondary Moon in Gemini (Navamsa position) or Libra (Novien position). I'd have the Gemini traits anyway because my N-chart (either variation) has an exact Moon-Mercury square; and I don't think of myself as Libran in any major sense. Also with other people: Something that discouraged me from being too interested in N-charts (by which I mean Novien or Navamsa) is that I really couldn't tell the difference between the two N Moon signs for anyone, I realty couldn't tell the difference. It doesn't jump out of them the way the birth chart Moon sign does.

2. This is consistent with the implications of dozens of statistical studies on sign that produce results consistent with a homogenous character through a sign, e.g., all of Leo is like Leo and not like it's subdivided into Leo + something else.

3. OTOH the boundaries of the N zones seem intriguingly real. This is a slightly complicated thing to explain, but basically I'm saying: Think of the Noviens/Navamsas as real bounded areas but without any distinctive sign-characteristics. For example, my natal Moon is in Aquarius and, by far, the largest number of romantic and sexual partners in my history have had Leo or Aquarius Moons (same sign or opposite). Similarly, my Novien Moon is in Libra and the largest number of Novien Moons in the same group of women are in Libra and Aries (or - mathematically, its the same thing - my Navamsa Moon is in Gemini and the same group of women heavily prefer Navamsa Moon in Gemini or Sagittarius). The sign-meaning (Libra-Aries e.g.) may not mean anything, but the 30° bounded zones definitely do.

4. You're probably going to hate this theory of mine because - if Novien luminary sign placements are meaningful, you finally get your Scorpio! (Your Novien Sun is in Scorpio.)

[Soft Alpaca]

Thanks you Jim! I understand the Vernal point idea now.
I have also been reading discussions about this topic on the sight.

I'm not really caught up over Scorpio much anymore, however the aspects in the novien to the natal were a punch to the face.

Novien Mars is midpoint natal Mars/Uranus. It is Novlie the natal Moon and Saturn.
Novien Uranus aspects Natal Venus, Natal Mars and novile (80 degrees) novien Moon.
Novien Sun is novile (80 degrees) from Novien Mars (which is again at an important mid point)
The Novien Moon is (160) away from Natal Uranus
Novien Mercury sits opposed to the Natal Mars/Uranus point
Novien Pluto aspects Natal Mars

There is a lot of Mars and Uranus energy, I can even cut some of it out but I put it down because it seems to be a theme. Thoughts?

[Jim Eshelman]

Novien Mars is midpoint natal Mars/Uranus. It is Novlie the natal Moon and Saturn.
Novien Uranus aspects Natal Venus, Natal Mars and novile (80 degrees) novien Moon.
Novien Sun is novile (80 degrees) from Novien Mars (which is again at an important mid point)
The Novien Moon is (160) away from Natal Uranus
Novien Mercury sits opposed to the Natal Mars/Uranus point
Novien Pluto aspects Natal Mars

I wouldn't take noviles within a Novien - sort of "Novien of Novien." While testing it, the general approach should be to consider fewer, stronger factors - say, limit it to close conjunctions, oppositions, and squares. In that case, Novien-to-Natal for you would be:

N9 Uranus sq. r Mars 0°54'
N9 Neptune sq. r Saturn 1°15'
N9 Pluto conj. r Jupiter 1°30'
N9 Uranus conj. r Venus 2°21'

Wider:
N9 Sun conj. r Venus 4°00'
N9 Mars conj. r Uranus 4°17'
N9 Mercury op. r Mars 4°30'

The two-way Mars-Uranus is interesting.

[Soft Alpaca]

I'll read into it more. I found it curious too because even if the signs of the Novien dont matter, the Uranus-Mars still comes out in the Novien chart. Over half of the aspects from the Novien contain one of those two energies. They still dont have an aspect to a luminary or angle, but how much energy do they have to make to be as expressive as one.

[Soft Alpaca]

Got another question, should the effect of a Novien planet (specifically luminaries) be considered in stellium or placements that would be stellium if they had a luminary involved. Take my Novien Scorpio Sun, which doesn't add Scorpio energy itself but could it be considered to add to the energy as a whole (so working with Venus,Mercury, Pluto (if that's even worth anything) to add it into my personality).

Perhaps my chart isnt the best example either, say someone had a Jup-Venus-Merc conj in a sign and Novien Sun or Moon acted on it, would that act like a stellium then? (I'm not upset if ir would work in a situation like this but not in my chart, I think it would be rather intresting to look into in general).

[Jim Eshelman]

Got another question, should the effect of a Novien planet (specifically luminaries) be considered in stellium or placements that would be stellium if they had a luminary involved.

To put this answer in the right perspective, remember that we don't actually have any sort of study that confirms the validity of Noviens at all. Any evidence is anecdotal, and is very thin. It's pretty easy to confirm that the 10° series of aspects works within very tight orbs (these become conjunctions, oppositions, or squares in the Novien), but maybe that's just because there's a 10° series of aspects (not because the Novien is valid).

The few times I've done collations of charts of one type and examined Novien or Navamsa Moon signs, the results are random. Nothing persuasive has emerged from that.

My own view (explained in multiple threads around the site) has moved in the direction of not thinking their sign meanings are valid at all. That is, if there is a Novien at all, my Novien Moon at 6° Libra might be a sensitive degree (e.g., conjunct my first wife's Sun, square Venus to the minute for my longest relationship, etc.), but not any Libra quality to me. - I could be right about this or wrong about it: I just mention it to show how much we haven't been able to confirm objectively.

That all being true, the above question is impossible to answer from experience, only from theory. The theory, among those who think there is an objective sign-placement in the Noviens, is that yes, such a placement is roughly as strong as a natal sign-placement. But that's just theory. The best answer, I think, is, "We have insufficient information to answer this question."

If that isn't true - if we can't take the sign meaning to be valid - then no, it would not compound a stellium.

[Soft Alpaca]

Ok I understand Jim. There is to much theory and not enough actual evidence to determine if it would compound a stellium (and because we can't study those theoretical compound stelliums [because we cant measure the importance of stelliums that deeply anyway ] I can see why yiu answered the way you did).

[Soft Alpaca]

I've been looking into Novien planets and interactions (as a general whole) within some of my friends/family/peers charts. This is some of what I've found.

I'm seeing when a sign in the natal has a few planets in it (typically a luminary, or a few personals <genetationals may fall here too but I wouldn't call them as important>) that additionally has Novien planets in that sign as well that at least with the charts I'm seeing, these people display energy from that sign.

My first example is a chart of a fellow female student.
Her luminary signs are Virgo and Pisces, her Mars is in Scorpio.
In her natal she has Venus (and a node) in cancer, while her art is sensitive and such, she really has some deeper decency issues not found in her chart. Looking at her Novien chart her Novien sun, moon, venus and Neptune all lie in cancer! With the 3 personal planets in that list all being within 4 degrees of her natal nodal axis. She is even the type that gets upset because her roommate has a boyfriend and spends less time with her because of it.

The second one is a lover.
He is a tropical astrologer who embraces his Leo (cough cough cancer) energy. His sun in cancer fits him well, his Mars in Taurus describes his very Venusy and feminine actions, his Moon in Aries is hard to pick up on out of the bedroom I'll admit. He has an angular Mercury opposite Uranus conj Neptune that gives him a radiance of this universal haromic intelligence. However something was missing about his culture and his superiority (remember he thinks he is a proud Leo) that doesn't quite show.
So his Novien Mars conj his Novien Moon in the front end of Sagittarius which contains his angular Neptune-Uranus conj. His IC. Seems to find his cultural superiority and his general sense of pride.

A third example is my brother.
With his Virgo Sun Pisces Moon and Aquarius Mars conj Uranus combination. His Moon is in Pisces angular and opposite his Virgo Mercury. His sun also being in Virgo may make the energies about even however his Virgo energy isnt nearly as apparent as his Piscean.
In his Novien he has Venus, Uranus, and Mars in Pisces.
Within 3 degrees of his Pisces Moon lies Novien Venus. This could be why his Piscean energy [imagination and undercurrent emotionally side] are for front in his personality.
There is another important energy I saw, my brother can get angry, as in drunk with rage, and it doesn't happen often (normally he has this almost dead unemotional mask on, that's covered in cheesy but sadistical humor). His Sun is in 135 degrees to his Mars/Uranus however this dictates less emotional rage violence pain than what I see. His Novien sun sits within 4 degrees square his Mars-Uranus adding this Scorpio ego to support the aspect. In addition to this his Novien moon sits close to his natal ascendant in Scorpio supporting both the ideas of an angular moon found In his natal and a rage/kill switch + a need for victory found in his personality.

As a general whole the Novien signs of course dont stand by themselves but they seem to fortify the signs in the natal (not necessarily meaning that Novien scorpio or Sagittarius is explicitly like that sign, however that the 30 degrees support the signs energy in the native). I would say that the signs I found in a peer a lover and a brother that were displayed in their with the use of their Novien are signs that stand strong within them.

[Soft Alpaca]

Hey Jim, while this is still something im interested in talking about all of the previous work i mentioned and worked on above is invalid. With my Chart time update ut changes a whole lot (except that Leo Moon moving it a drastic 4 degrees forward).

First off im agreeing with the not exactly same as sign thematic views of the 30° novien zones. I wouldn't say im ver cancerian. However, I don't understand quite why in my novien chart Hindu Vedic astrology denotes to moon in leo as being wicked,sinful, and bound to fail.

Im also doubting aspects purely do to the Sun+Venus novien being opposed to my natal Neptune (which are respectively 3 and 1 degrees away)

I don't even think transits to N9 Moon would be super easy or effective to look at either

Any thoughts?

[Jim Eshelman]

Hey Jim, while this is still something im interested in talking about all of the previous work i mentioned and worked on above is invalid. With my Chart time update ut changes a whole lot (except that Leo Moon moving it a drastic 4 degrees forward).

Is this a new birth time? I missed it if you posted it. A 4° Novien Moon change is half an hour in birth time.

[Soft Alpaca]

I believe when this chart was drawn up i was using the estimated 7am birthtime, not the 7:32 birthtime.

[Jim Eshelman]

I believe when this chart was drawn up i was using the estimated 7am birthtime, not the 7:32 birthtime.

For 7:32, here is your Novien. I'll come back and delete the graphic later, so save a copy if you like. - I'm curious whether you have a history of romantic partners with 1-2° orbed aspects to the Moon, Sun, Venus, and Mars positions in this chart.

[attachment deleted]

[Soft Alpaca]

Jim, with the 32+ people i have slept with i have a single chart saved. Romance is not something i can just obtain (unlike sex, I can seduce just about anything).

What I can say is that i do draw in people who have planets in fixed signs, especially Leo and Scorpio. Most of my friends and likely some of my lovers (as i do recall having read charts for some) have at least one luminary or Mars in one or more of these signs. Here are the 10 most influential (not all on great terms). Both of my siblings are Aquarius too I should add.

My mom, nana, and my eight friends (or ex friends for at least 2) are as follows
Mom: Scorpio (Moon 15°), Aquarius Sun (3°) (virgo)
Nan: Scorpio Moon (13°) (virgo/cancer)
Best highschool friend female : Leo Mars, Scorpio Moon (cancer)
Veronica (best college friend): Leo Sun(9°) , Scorpio Mars (29°) (Sagittarius)
College crush/traitor: Taurus Sun (29°) Scorpio Moon (6°). This one is important (the guy we had discussed before) (Gemini)
Aidan: Scorpio Mars (9°) (Sagittarius + Libra)
John: Scorpio Sun (7°) Leo Moon (26°) (Cancer)
Jacob: Scorpio Mars (4°) (Capricorn +Libra)
Tati: Leo Mars (24°) Taurus Moon (28°) (Libra)
Nick: Leo Moon (24°) Leo Mars (5°) (Libra)

These are people I can trip balls and travel across the country during a pandemic with or for. All of the Male Scorpios and i have had rounds at least once. All but the last 2 out of my college friends (from Veronica down) are used to all hanging together (its a Scorpio party). During these times there is always weed, boose, dancing, and delinquency involved, everything is hyper sexual and of course these are everyday friends (like getting drunk on a Thursday at 5pm).

Going through that list the cancer and the one Capricorn energy do hit on that Capricorn Mars.

In one chart i did save of a guy i hooked up with twice he had Venus at 5° Aquarius and a super intense partile Mars-Neptune Square, which adds to his already charming Libra Mars. And his sun is at 18.38° Sagittarius! Needless to say it didn't last, he was really into pain i think (he had a Pisces Moon 27° as well).

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, with the 32+ people i have slept with i have a single chart saved. Romance is not something i can just obtain (unlike sex, I can seduce just about anything).

I used "romantic" as a euphemism

What I can say is that i do draw in people who have planets in fixed signs, especially Leo and Scorpio.

I'm interested mostly in exact degrees - 1-2° orbs on conjunctions, oppositions, and squares. Attracting Hubs is no mystery anyway, given your Leo Moon.

So we're looking for those aspects to 5°02' Scorpio, 7°26' Scorpio, 19°58' Sagittarius, or 24°18' Capricorn. From the ones you listed, it looks like these exist for:

Mom: Sun-Sun
Veronica: Venus-Sun
College crush/traitor: Your Novien Sun-Venus to his Moon
Aidan: Venus-Mars
John: Venus(Sun)-Sun
Jacob: Sun-Mars

You do seem to be pulling a lot of people with the combination of Novien Sun-Venus at 5-7° Scorpio.

In one chart i did save of a guy i hooked up with twice he had Venus at 5° Aquarius and a super intense partile Mars-Neptune Square, which adds to his already charming Libra Mars. And his sun is at 18.38° Sagittarius! Needless to say it didn't last, he was really into pain i think (he had a Pisces Moon 27° as well).

Again, this Venus squares your Novien Sun-Venus. That does seem an interesting concentrated degree zone for you. Then, his Sun is within 2° of conjunct your Novien Moon, which is a quite significant connection in theory, the kind of connection that potentially would be considered marriage material.

So... that's interesting.

While my Novien Moon conjoined my first wife's Sun and squared Venus within a few minutes for my longest relationship, and my current wife's Novien Moon squares my Sun, I also, like you, have a Sun-Venus conjunction in Scorpio (17°Venus, 22° Sun). That zone has shown repeatedly in the natal planets of women of my past and (more importantly) matches my current wife's Sun 14° Taurus and Moon 16° Leo.

[Soft Alpaca]

Whats also interesting is that my moon in the lunar mansions (which the novien being noticed by the same vedic astrologers) is ruled by Venus. Almost all of my close friends have this scorpio connection, even Tati has a Scorpio Venus at 3 degrees in her natal.

I cant say Scorpio is my sign in the least, but i am almost always drowned by it (even meeting folks across the country whom i run into on the streets or at odd places like the greyhound bus).
Ill also say that Venus-Scorpio definitely resonates to at least other Scorpios and they often forget im not "one of them" . I think perhaps it creates link I share with you in some way as well (as your Scorpio Venus-Sun novien sits close to my Pluto, which hits heavy on my moon).