Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

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Lance
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Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Lance » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:09 pm

Are there any known astrological predictors for periods of higher fertility in humans?

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:11 pm

Nothing certain.
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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:34 am

[Leaving post for reference to the thread for the moment, but noting that it is off-topic to this entire site. It presumes the existence of fictitious sign boundaries, decisively demonstrated not to exist. - ADMIN ]

Lance, just take a few charts and see where Jupiter was moving at the time of conception. Many astrologers will tell you to look at when Jupiter is moving through the 1st, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th (5th from 5th), 10th and 11th houses/whole signs. Why would Jupiter moving through those houses bring about fertility? Because when in 1st it is expanding yourself, 4th expanding the home&family, 5th expanding the children, 7th expanding the relatioinship/marriage, 9th is 5th from 5th so from the 9th house Jupiter casts a Jupiter aspect (trine) onto the 1st and 5th for expansion, 11th is opposite the 5th so it is also casting an aspect onto the 5th house for expansion. Probably best to also compare the couples' charts to see if his houses of fertility fall into her houses of fertility and then most likely for fruits. F.ex. her 5th is his 1st or 7th, then more likely. Her 1st/7th is his 5th, more likely ...etc.

I have many examples of conceptions happening when Jupiter moves through people's 5th & 7th signs (counting from either the ASC or from the East Point). I do also take care to consider the Vx axis as well, although it is often around the EP, occasionally it falls into another sign.
I've also seen signs of fertility (expansion) with Jupiter moving through the opposite sign of those two mentioned above and therefore is highly influencing those opposite signs, in the 11th & 1st sign of the chart.

For example in my own case my first child was conceived when Jupiter was around my EP, the second child is not really mine but it comes from my cell and therefore I count it. My fertility was "expanded" with medication to help another couple conceive and this was when Jupiter was in 5th sign from EP. The third child was conceived when Jupiter was around MC and in 7th sign from ASC, 10th from EP (this is his father's 5th sign) and was born when Jup had moved into 11th from the EP. The fourth child was conceived when Jupiter was in 12th from EP .. but it is also the 9th sign from ASC ... AND it is actually her father's 7th sign.
I can add another incident of fertility into my own story (my early days), but it didn't come to fruition as a baby born though. But conception happened when Jupiter was moving through my 7th from EP. Another conception happened when Jup was moving through my 9th from EP. Jupiter is now again moving through the 9th from EP and now I am seriously considering expanding the family again by helping children who don't have home by temporary fostering them.

Let's take a look at Angelina Jolie who has six children, three adopted and three are her biological children.
http://www.madeformums.com/news-and-gos ... 12291.html
She first adopted on March 10th 2002 when Jupiter is in her first sign.
The second adoption was on July 6th 2005 when Jupiter was in her 4th sign.
The third adoption was on March 15th 2007 when Jupiter was moving through her Vx sign & Brad's 1st.
Her first born is born in May 2006 when Jupiter was in her 5th sign (conceived when Jup was in 4th, Brad's 11th).
The second birth was when her twins born on July 12th 2008 when Jupiter was in her 7th sign (conceived when Jup was in her Vx sign).
For the fertility, Brad Pitt's 1st sign is Angelina's Vx sign and his 11th sign is her 4th sign. He has his Jupiter in his 5th sign indicating many children.
Angelina has her Jupiter in 10th, conjunct her Moon which is the ruler of her 1st sign.

Kate Middleton is another celeb who has recently had 3 children, which is above average in the western world. She has her Jup in 4th sign from ASC, conjunct her IC.
1st child born July 22nd 2013, conceived when Jup was in her 11th and Prince William's 7th from ASC.
Second child born May 2nd 2015, conceived when Jup was in her 1st and Prince William's 9th (sq. his MC).
Third child born April 23rd 2018, born when Jup was in her 4th, conceived when Jup was in her 3rd (possibly when in 4th from EP) and Prince William's 11th.

Mia Farrow has 14 children. Her Jupiter is in the 5th sign from her ASC&EP.
Another celebrity with lots of children is Eddie Murphy who has 10 children! His Jupiter is partile conjunct his WP and is in the 7th sign from ASC as well. In his case Jup is also the ruler of his 5th sign.
Steven Spielberg has 6 children and his Jupiter is in the 5th sign from his ASC.
Clint Eastwood has 7 children and his Jup is in 7th from his EP.
Marlon Brando has 15 children and his Jup in his 1st house conj. EP. His Sun is conj. Moon in his 5th.

Tropical zodiac used for all charts.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:40 am

[Leaving post for reference to the thread for the moment, but noting that it is off-topic to this entire site. It presumes the existence of fictitious sign boundaries, decisively demonstrated not to exist. - ADMIN ]

I'd like to add Kris Kardashian / Jenner into this thread. Why? Because she has many children and I would like to see where Jupiter was at likely time of conception.
https://www.quora.com/What-birth-order- ... ardashians

Kourtney Kardashian (born April 18, 1979) - Jupiter in Cancer for birth and conception

Kim Kardashian-West (born October 21, 1980) - Jupiter in Virgo for birth and conception.

Khloé Kardashian (born June 27, 1984) - Jupiter in Capricorn for birth, Sagi for conception

Rob Kardashian (born March 17, 1987) - Jupiter in Aries for birth, Pisces for conception

Kendall Jenner (born November 3, 1995) - Jupiter in Sagi for birth and conception

Kylie Jenner (born August 10, 1997) - Jupiter in Aquarius for birth, Capricorn for conception.

She conceives when Jupiter is in 11th, 1st, 5th, 7th, 4th, 5th.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:03 am

Arena wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:34 am
Lance, just take a few charts and see where Jupiter was moving at the time of conception. Many astrologers will tell you to look at when Jupiter is moving through the 1st, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th (5th from 5th), 10th and 11th houses/whole signs.
Arena, this is a Sidereal astrology forum. This doesn't look like Sidereal astrology. Is it some kind of Hindu-Vedic thing or maybe a reconstructed Greek-"tropical" thing? Or?

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:12 am

[Leaving post for reference to the thread for the moment, but noting that it is off-topic to this entire site. It presumes the existence of fictitious sign boundaries, decisively demonstrated not to exist. - ADMIN ]

Mila Kunis recently had two children. She is born on August 14th 1983 at 5 pm.
Let's see where Jupiter was when she conceived.

Wyatt Isabelle Kutcher (born on October 1, 2014) - Jupiter in Leo at birth, Cancer at conception. Cancer is 7th from Mila's EP.

Dimitri Portwood Kutcher (born on November 30, 2016) - Jupiter in Libra at birth, Virgo at conception. Virgo is 9th from Mila's EP.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:13 am

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:03 am
Arena wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:34 am
Lance, just take a few charts and see where Jupiter was moving at the time of conception. Many astrologers will tell you to look at when Jupiter is moving through the 1st, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th (5th from 5th), 10th and 11th houses/whole signs.
Arena, this is a Sidereal astrology forum. This doesn't look like Sidereal astrology. Is it some kind of Hindu-Vedic thing or maybe a reconstructed Greek-"tropical" thing? Or?
Many S/sidereal astrologers as well as tropical astrologers use the whole sign house system. Even though you and Jim and some others choose to use the Campanus house system, that doesn't make it right nor does it make it the only way to look at things.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:21 am

FWIW, I don't know a single Sidereal astrologer who uses Whole House system AND employs house meanings.

I don't care how it's visually divided, but I do have to remind that we remain skeptical about houses having significance at all, since there has been no large-scale confirmation. Transits through the houses are even more suspect. The fact that you have named seven equal-sized houses means that you have stated conditions that more than 50% of the time a conception would hit by pure chance, in the absence of any astrological influence at all.
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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:28 am

[Leaving post for reference to the thread for the moment, but noting that it is off-topic to this entire site. It presumes the existence of fictitious sign boundaries, decisively demonstrated not to exist. - ADMIN ]

Julia Roberts has three children. Julia is born on October 28th 1967 at 12.16 am in Atlanta GA, USA.
Where was Jupiter when she conceived?

Twins; Hazel Patricia Moder & Phinnaeus "Finn" Walter Moder (born November 28, 2004) - Jupiter was in Virgo at conception

Henry Daniel Moder (born June 18, 2007) - Jupiter in Scorpio at conception.

Julia has her ASC and EP in tropical Cancer and Virgo is the 3rd (and contains her n. Jupiter) and Scorpio is her 5th sign.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:39 am

Even though you do not employ house meanings, it does not mean that it has not been explored extensively by others. The only house system that I have seen consistently work is the whole house system. I have now mentioned 19 examples of fertility being enhanced or expanded when Jupiter moves through those whole sign houses. I can name many many more. I could go up to 100 cases, but it is a lot of work. But I mght do it in order to show people in this forum that those whole sign houses are most likely to bring about enhanced fertility/expansion of the family.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:52 am

Arena wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:39 am
Even though you do not employ house meanings, it does not mean that it has not been explored extensively by others. The only house system that I have seen consistently work is the whole house system. I have now mentioned 19 examples of fertility being enhanced or expanded when Jupiter moves through those whole sign houses. I can name many many more. I could go up to 100 cases, but it is a lot of work. But I mght do it in order to show people in this forum that those whole sign houses are most likely to bring about enhanced fertility/expansion of the family.
Any proof of astrological operations would be exciting, so please go for it!

Here are the statistical expectations: If you have a 100 examples (presuming it's a well-selected data set), and are predicting that transiting Jupiter will be in one of seven specified whole-sign houses, we have the following:

n = 100 (sample size)
p = 0.5833333333333333 (probability of any one incident being correct)
q = 0.4166666666666667 (probability of any one incident being wrong)
np = 58.33333333333333 (the number of expected "hits" by pure chance)
s = Sqrt (npq) = 6.454972243679028 (standard deviation)
s x 1.96 = 12.6517455976109 (number in excess of the mean expectancy to made odds only 1 in 20 of a coincidental effect)

Therefore, if 71 of the 100 cases has Jupiter in one of the 7 specified houses, we have cause to suspect a real phenomenon.
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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:13 am

[Leaving post for reference to the thread for the moment, but noting that it is off-topic to this entire site. It presumes the existence of fictitious sign boundaries, decisively demonstrated not to exist. - ADMIN ]

Let's explore what I can find about Mia Farrow's children - when she expanded her family. Mia has her ASC and EP in tropical Taurus.

Info from Wikipedia says biological children are;

twins Matthew and Sascha (born February 26, 1970) - Jup in Virgo at conception, 5th from Mia's 1st.

Fletcher (born March 14, 1974) - Jup in Aquarius at conception, 10th sign.

On December 19, 1987, Satchel O'Sullivan Farrow, later known as Ronan Farrow - Jup in Aries (possible EP for Mia).

..and adopted children
Farrow and Previn adopted Vietnamese infants Lark Song Previn and Summer "Daisy" Song Previn, in 1973 and 1976, respectively,[91] followed by the adoption of Soon-Yi from Korea around 1978.

Jup was in Capricorn and Aquarius in 1973, Aries and Taurus in 1976, Cancer and Leo in 1978.

In 1980 adopted Moses Farrow - Jupiter in Virgo for the most part.

In 1985, Farrow adopted Dylan Farrow (born July 1985, adopted at two weeks old). - Jup in Aquarius.

Between 1992 and 1995, Farrow adopted five more children: Tam Farrow; Kaeli-Shea Farrow, later known as Quincy Maureen Farrow; Frankie-Minh; Isaiah Justus; Gabriel Wilk Farrow, later known as Thaddeus Wilk Farrow[99] and named after Elliott Wilk, the judge who oversaw Farrow's 1993 legal battle with Allen.[100]"

During this time Jupiter travelled from Virgo to Sagi. But I do not have the timings for these.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:56 am

All we really need BTW is a final tally (count) of transiting Jupiter in the signs.

BTW, since you're using whole-sign houses using fictitious sign boundaries (Tropical signs), it's a flawed study. (I just realized you were doing that.) I'm going to go back and delete all the individual posts that list examples based upon the proven-not-to-exist boundaries of Tropical signs. However, I encourage you to present your final summaries (12 house counts for transiting Jupiter) in both Tropical and Sidereal schemes for comparison. The numbers will, of course, be different.

You can, of course, give your own opinions even in the face of 70 years of evidence to the contrary, but I won't let you get away with using a fictitious zodiac here as if there is some reason to grant it equal footing.
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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:16 pm

Let's try this famous man with 8 children, Mick Jagger. Jagger's EP is in Taurus and ASC is in Gemini.

Wikipedia states:
"Jagger has eight children with five women.[138][139] He also has five grandchildren,[140][141] and became a great-grandfather on 19 May 2014, when Jade's daughter Assisi gave birth to a daughter.[142]

On 4 November 1970, Marsha Hunt gave birth to Jagger's first child, Karis Hunt Jagger,[139] the only child Jagger had with Hunt. The following year, Bianca Jagger gave birth to the couple's only child, and Jagger's second, Jade Sheena Jezebel Jagger on 21 October 1971.[139]

Jagger has four children with model and actress Jerry Hall, the first is Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Scarlett Jagger born on 2 March 1984.[139] The couple's second child was born 28 August 1985, named James Leroy Augustin Jagger.[139] Hall gave birth to their third child, Georgia May Ayeesha Jagger, on 12 January 1992.[139] The fourth — and last — child Jagger would have with Hall was Gabriel Luke Beauregard Jagger born on 9 December 1997.[139] The couple's relationship ended after it was discovered that he had had an affair with Brazilian model Luciana Gimenez Morad, resulting in Jagger's seventh child, Lucas Maurice Morad Jagger, who was born on 18 May 1999.[143][139] After the death of longtime girlfriend L'Wren Scott, Jagger started a relationship with ballerina Melanie Hamrick. Their son, Deveraux Octavian Basil Jagger, was born on 8 December 2016.[144][139]"

Conceptions:
1st - Jup in Scorpio
2nd - Jup in Sagi
3rd - Jup in Sagi
4th - Jup in Capri
5th - Jup in Leo
6th - Jup in Aqua
7th - Jup in Pisces
8th - Jup in Virgo

All consistent with those whole sign houses from ASC or EP - more so with the EP.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:18 pm

It is very easy to look up charts online for tropical and quicker to use them. Very likely this will look the same/very similar with the sidereal charts casted.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:32 pm

Likely nobody is going to follow up on it, it will just get ignored. The real value will be in final side-by-side totals. These will likely vary quite a lot just as (say) natal sign tallies for two zodiac schemes vary considerably in the numbers.

Please don't post individual examples that rely on the Tropical zodiac existing for anybody to duplicate the results.
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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:06 pm

If data used consistently is from the tropical zodiac it is not a flawed study, it is simply based on the tropical zodiac.

Even though you have compiled a lot of data on sidereal signs, it does not mean that tropical borders are "proven-not-to-exist boundaries", especially not when the data has not been compared in the compilation. Comparing just a few charts, but not all of them means that proper research comparison has not been done.

I am in the flow state now and I am gathering the data into an excel sheet compiling it simply into which sidereal whole sign house Jup is found around conception. This is getting so very interesting because it is consistently in the houses I mentioned... which doesn't surprise me at all because I keep seeing it all the time.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:09 pm

In all the largest studies, andin most of the medium studies, it was ompared side by side.
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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:12 pm

Arena wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:18 pm
It is very easy to look up charts online for tropical and quicker to use them. Very likely this will look the same/very similar with the sidereal charts casted.
When you're on a Sidereal forum, it's polite to use astro.com and convert the charts to Sidereal.

I like you Arena, and so does Jim, but this is the only Sidereal community online. There are hundreds of places you can post tropical and house system roulette stuff. There's no need to drag it here to pollute Jim's forum and make him pay storage fees for it.

This site is for the Sidereal zodiac only. BTW we only use Campanus because it's the closest generally available in software house system we've found to the mundoscope positions.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Arena » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:23 pm

At midnight I've managed to get the following results out of 54 sorting data by sidereal zodiac.
Jupiter in whole sign houses counted from EP or ASC
1st - 5
2nd - 2
3rd - 2
4th - 6
5th - 9
6th - 1 (note; on Vx axis)
7th - 10
8th - 1 (note; on Vx axis)
9th - 4
10th - 7
11th - 6
12th - 1 (note; on Vx axis)

Houses with Jupiter moving through 7th, 5th and 10th at the time of conception are the winners so far.
47 out of the 54 are indeed in the houses mentioned, that is 87%
IF the Vx axis cases are discarded, then we would have 47/51= 92%

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:56 pm

Thanks. Let's go with what you have. In fact, with your target of 100 cases, this is a decent comparison: We can assess at the halfway mark and see if the second half matches or diverges.

Your original premise was that Jupiter would indicate conception when in the 1st, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, and 11th houses.

On the positive, you did get decent 5th and 7th "house" showings if we take these individually. Though we'd be more sure with larger numbers, the 7th and 5th are, respectively, 2.7 and 2.2 standard deviations from mean expectancy. Since the overall Chi-square is 24.7 for 11 degrees of freedom (12 categories), this is quite decent, and the symbolism is good. (10th house is quite normal statistically, with z = -1.7.)

However, that Chi-square is boosted by strong negative results. The 6th, 8th, and 12th houses (three of the four classic misfortune houses) are significantly low. This is not a bad start, and I'd encourage you to increase the sample size.

This is what we have taking them individually.
Jupiter in whole sign houses counted from EP or ASC
I'm not sure what this means. Did you use Asc, or did you use EP? Or did you vary, depending on the chart? (This matters a lot, of course.)
1st - 5
2nd - 2
3rd - 2
4th - 6
5th - 9
6th - 1
7th - 10
8th - 1
9th - 4
10th - 7
11th - 6
12th - 1
For the seven houses specified, you get 47 (as you mentioned). Working the numbers for a sample size of 54, we get a mean expectancy of 31.5, and any value over 38.6 surpasses the 1-in-20 threshold.

So this is quite good so far, except for the small sample size. Please take this up to 100 and, if you can, 200. Also, please clarify what you meant by "from EP or Asc." (I'm also not sure exactly on what criteria you're selecting the data; we'll need that at some point.)

Thanks.
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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Veronica » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:30 am

Lance wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:09 pm
Are there any known astrological predictors for periods of higher fertility in humans?
Fertility is not just releasing ovum and sperm.
We has thoughts and feelings and beliefs and if those things have a receptive nurturing "bed" in which to implant then growth can occur.

I gather though you specifically want info on a womans womb being able to nurture carry and deliver a healthy baby. Imo....that is totally individualistic and would have more to do with progressed or lunar returns for the specific person. Ie where they currently are in thier life path. I am a very fertile person by nature as in my chart my midpoints and aspects lend me to be receptive and nurturing but those concepts/tendencies have manifested in different ways then just catching sperm over the course of my life.

My mother had 8 full term pregnancies. My sister 6. My aunt had 6. They are normal people not celebrities. While I respect Arenas research I think the population being drawn from is skewed to material (jupiter) sucessfully people and not a fair representation of the general population.

If you are looking for ways to enhance the likelyhood of conception then I would suggest the mundane methods: thinking loving thoughts and being in a receptive mindset, taking supreme care of all health issues, fresh clean raw foods, plenty of fresh air excersize and clean water, cleaning out psychological garbage/subconscious programing and generally being true and living according to ones inner truth.

I do believe the planet Pluto to be a supreme force in conception of all kinds.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Gary Noel » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:19 am

According to the hermetic rule or rule of Hermes, “The zodiacal location of the Moon at the moment of conception is in line with the Ascendant-Descendant axis at the moment of birth.” For example, someone born with the Ascendant in 23° 5’ sidereal Gemini would have been conceived when the Moon was either in 23° 5’ Gemini or Sagittarius. This was brought to my attention by siderealist Robert Powell in The Astrological Revolution, p. 36.

I’m skeptical of this but even if it’s true, it probably works only when the birth is natural. Statistician Michel Gauquelin noticed that the Mars effect, so dramatic among athletes born in the first half of the 20th century, disappeared among athletes born after 1950 and attributed this to the decline of natural birth.* Same thing with the conception rule. If a child is born at the convenience of the doctor instead of the time appointed by the stars, the conception rule (assuming it’s true) no longer applies.

*There will always be natural birth but it’s been in decline for decades and that’s one explanation for the disappearance of the Mars effect. However, and this is a bit off the subject, it’s possible that Michel, without realizing it, was the first to discover the influence of performance enhancing drugs on athletes.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:51 am

Natural birth is coming back in the US, mostly because of the lack of care available to women in poor and rural areas. It's rising hand in hand with the maternal and neo-natal death rates.

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Re: Predictors for Periods of Relative Fertility?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:52 am

This so-called Prenatal Epoch used to be a popular esoteric theory that was all the rage for rectification a century ago. It's easily disproven, though - on the physical plane - and its supporters mostly fell back to asserting that the chart produced is not of conception but of some other spiritually significant moment.

The full version is that the Moon and Ascendant trade places between the nativity and the conception chart, so getting an approximate hit when Ascendant was where your natal Moon was would give a "conception Moon" that should be the natal Ascendant. In my case, with a recorded birth time of 4:13 AM that has behaved well for decades (it surely isn't more than a quarter minute off), the variations of the Prenatal Epoch suggest birth times of either 4:31 or 4:00 AM.

Of course, this suggests December 26 as a conception date. My parents were married January 10 and were a bit old fashioned, but, even if they were covering up their humanity with a fib, I was born October 10 and have seen the medical records saying I was early.
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