Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

Over recent months, I've been looking more pointedly, when the chance afforded itself, at mundane (prime vertical) aspects in a natal chart. Previously, I've left several things filed in the "unknown, undecided" part of my brain. I've now resolved some of those unknowns to my own satisfaction.

In Sidereal Mundane Astrology, Chapter 3 (on the mundoscope), I summarized my previous thoughts thus:

...Ecliptical aspects in the standard horoscope are unquestionably valid and are a confirmable foundation of most approaches to astrology. Still, this leaves a separate question of whether mundoscope aspects (rightly called mundane aspects) are also valid. If they are, it complicates astrology further, though that is insufficient cause to neglect them if they appear to be of value.

In most scenarios, it seems that mundane aspects are not valid to the same level as ecliptical aspects. If I had to pick one or the other, I would pick ecliptical aspects. However, in certain scenarios, mundane aspects are enormously important.

...Occasionally one sees an aspect [mundane] that makes one’s heart skip a beat but, overall, introducing an additional set of aspects is not supportable when looking at real lives.

One scenario where it is difficult for me to dismiss mundane aspects, though, is in relocation astrology. In comparing the mundoscope of one’s natal chart to the mundoscope of its relocation to a new geographic region, some mundoscope aspects disappear and others appear. If these aspects are close conjunctions, oppositions, or squares, it does appear quite often that the change in aspects matches a change in circumstances. (These are mundane aspects, after all – a framework relative to our situation in the world.) This suggests that the aspects are, indeed, valid, though perhaps more subtly than ecliptical aspects, so that they usually do not shine as clearly in the character until something (like a cross-country move) forces a contrast.

Mundane aspects, existing only for one (large or small) region of Earth, are inherently aspects of localization. They distinguish some geographic regions from others... I am unsurprised, therefore, that mundane aspects seem exceptionally important in mundane astrology charts like Sidereal solar and lunar ingress charts. Sometimes, though, we find striking examples of their operation in a natal chart...

I then gave three examples of them seeming important, striking enough to make good examples and keep the mind open and thinking processes going, concluding:

Examples such as these make it hard to dismiss entirely the value of mundane aspects in natal astrology, other than as a tactic of simplification or setting priorities.

So I kept the question open and on the back-burner until I had more opportunity - and found the angle - to dig more deeply into it.

To summarize what had been learned and seemingly confirmed previously:

1. Mundane aspects were overwhelmingly confirmed in mundane charts - Sidereal solar and lunar ingresses - and seem indistinguishable from ecliptical aspects. - Notice, though, that this meant mundane conjunctions, oppositions, and squares where at least one of the planets (and usually two) was angular.
2. Mundane aspects seem just as strongly confirmed in Sidereal solar and lunar returns - regardless of whether they are transit-to-transit, transit-to-natal, or (often newly "discovered") natal-to-natal aspects. In all cases, the confirmed aspects were conjunctions, oppositions, or squares where both planets are foreground or angular. [For unclear reasons, there is a difference between ingresses and solunars in this regard: In the ingresses, a non-foreground planet's aspect to a foreground planet is operative as a conditioning factor provided it doesn't contradict the primary message of the ingress. However, in solunar returns, the aspect seems completely worthless unless both planets are foreground or angular (the exception being partile aspects).]
3. In a natal chart, close hard mundane aspects between natal planets have always been evident provided they were closely conjunct angles, i.e., in the immediate foreground.
4. In relocation, the effect is much more evident: Mundane aspects acquired or lost by relocating the birth chart seem quite descriptive of the differing conditions in the two locations. Some examples have been quite vivid. A reasonable conclusion from this would be that the mundane aspect must have been somewhat effective all along, otherwise the contrast wouldn't be so evident; but it still allowed that the base effect might be subtle.

As part of sustaining a state of skeptical unknowing or inquiry while investigating this: Most of the above prior determinations were only known to be operative when in the foreground. This allows that there could have been another theory of why these aspects seem so effective even if we determined that mundane aspects themselves were not valid in these conditions. (This is somewhat subtle, so please be patient and read closely.) It could have been only a matter of co-angularity. Consider as an example: Our friend Arena has no ecliptical Jupiter-Saturn aspect at birth. However, she was born with Saturn 1°20' past Ascendant and Jupiter 2°16' past Descendant. The simplest way to describe this would be a partile (0°37') Jupiter-Saturn mundane aspect, and a Jupiter-Saturn aspect accurately describes her character and history. However... it doesn't require that the aspect itself exists. We would get much the same by her simply being someone with Saturn closely angular and Jupiter comparably closely angular - the co-existence of these two energies in comparable strength. I would be hard-pressed to distinguish that interpretation from a Jupiter-Saturn aspect interpretation (and probably would use what I know of the aspect to interpret the co-angularity).

In other words, as long as we are dealing with close aspects in the foreground, alternate theories are available that don't require aspects per se and that explain why strong effects are present that look like the aspect. (If we limit ourselves to close aspects, then the two planets' distance from the angles is always going to be similar - they will be comparably strong.)

On the other hand, co-angularity doesn't explain anything valid we might see in Arena's natal mundane Moon-Sun opposition. She doesn't have a natal Moon-Sun aspect (her Cancer Sun not having the same dynamic feel as a Moon-Sun aspect); she has a partile (0°45') mundane Moon-Sun opposition; and the luminaries are outside the foreground. If we were to judge that the usual characteristics of a natal Moon-Sun opposition appear in her, then alternate theories no longer suffice: We're left with the explanation that there is an actual aspect between them.

This summarizes where I found myself on the issue before revisiting it on and off in recent months.

In recent months, I've encountered several examples that have led me to new conclusions on the question of mundane aspects in a natal chart.

As summarized above, previously I had concluded that close hard foreground mundane aspects were important as a way of interpreting foreground planets; that a distinction could be easily seen in relocation astrology as aspects are "lost" and "acquired" from a geographic move; that natal ecliptical aspects are rock-solid confirmed, a reliable foundation of most approaches to astrology; and that occasionally there was an interesting example of some other mundane aspect seeming operative... just enough "maybe" to keep me looking.

My new conclusions are as follows:

1. All close (Class 1) mundane conjunctions, oppositions, and squares in a birth chart are valid, strong aspects, probably comparable to comparably close ecliptical conjunctions, oppositions, and squares. (Since work with ingresses shows ecliptical and mundane aspects equally effective and indistinguishable, we'll probably conclude the same is true in a nativity.)
2. Wider (Class 2) mundane conjunctions, oppositions, and squares in a nativity are probably also important at about the same level as Class 2 ecliptical aspects; however, these wider orbs make characteristics less evident (i.e., case-by-case confirmation is more difficult).
3. Some examples suggest that mundane semi-squares and sesqui-squares (within 1-2°) are also effective in a nativity. (More looking is needed, but I found several examples where they seem evident and no examples where they were outright contradictions.)
4. Mundane sextiles and trines are worthless. They are white noise across the examples, occasionally seeming to fit, occasionally contradictory, etc.
5. At least the close mundane conjunctions, oppositions, and squares in a nativity need to be considered for a complete picture of the nativity. Possibly, wider mundane hard aspects need to be considered as well.
6. As already known - and now for additional reasons - a mundoscope must always accompany a horoscope, side-by-side.

I do think, though, that there is an interpretive difference between ecliptical and mundane phenomena. I will summarize these in the next post.

Mundane means "of or pertaining to the world" (Latin mundus). This word is used in two distinct ways in astrology.

• It is used in the term mundane astrology as "astrology for the world," i.e., geopolitical or mass-mind / collective astrology.
• It is used in such terms as mundane phenomena to mean astrological characteristics that are not celestial (phenomena in the sky, true for all places on Earth) but are local to specific, limited places on Earth. (These are primarily considerations of angularity and houses.)

Another subtle meaning is inherent in these two uses: Mundane factors in a chart seem to best show things that happen - as objective events - out in the world rather than only within a person's psyche. (This is evident in the way that angles tend to always be implicated in events.) While no clear, distinct boundary exists between psychological expressions and event expressions of astrological factors, we already rely most on mundane measurements (angles) to identify events.

Similarly, I have come to think that mundane placements and aspects in a nativity lean more heavily to showing life events - actions, outpourings, things that "happen to us" - than ecliptical aspects. It's not that ecliptical aspects don't show life events, or that mundane aspects don't imply psychological conditions behind events, but that the mundoscope - even of a nativity - is more of an event chart. (I think we will find that ecliptical aspects in a nativity most show events when they are also mundane aspects.)

This also gives a satisfying explanation to the question of why only hard mundane aspects seem effective: They, too, are phenomena of direct action, dynamic energy flow, and more concrete, objective phenomena.

Finally, to get the full impact of the meaning of "mundane," notice that this is exactly the way most astrologers who use houses understand houses. Siderealists are most committed to the importance of angles and, at most, are collectively ambivalent about houses; but, without requiring that we accept houses as valid phenomena, please note that they are most commonly used to show life areas of concrete expression - such as determining in what part of life a result will emerge. That is, houses are primarily used to express mundane (out in the world) phenomena. This congeals a broad instinct that mundane (location-specific) mathematical factors in a horoscope (such as angles and houses) have primarily a mundane ("out in the world" or objective) expression in one's life.

A couple of examples might make this clearer.

On a mundane astrology Facebook page, an astrologer recently asked for opinions on how Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu had survived in politics so long - seeming to circumvent all sorts of political troubles. Netanyahu was born October 21, 1949, in Tel Aviv, Israel with a variety of rectifications either side of a stated 10:30 AM time. (I use 10:30 here, but half an hour either way makes little difference.) The most common theory was that Venus rising made him popular. I didn't think popularity was sufficient, but noticed (1) many factors in the chart that seemed to describe a character who gets away with more than other people, (2) the rising Venus closely square Saturn, showing a willingness to sell his soul for a goal and not bicker about the price, and (3) a number of cagey, strategic markers.

I initially thought these would be sufficient but not entirely satisfying. The chart didn't show any mark of real advantage or unusual luck. Then I checked the mundoscope and - behold! - a close (1°12') Sun-Jupiter mundane square. That felt satisfying!


Another great example is a chart we're all going to be getting used to seeing, that of JOE BIDEN, who was born November 20, 1942, 8:30 AM EWT, in Scranton, PA. His horoscope describes his character quite well, but it only hints at the main outward phenomena of his life - what politically is called one's story. Here, though, is his mundoscope.

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The main features of Biden's story center around the tragic losses he has suffered in his life, particularly the car crash that killed his wife and daughter (and injured his two sons) and the later death of one of his sons (and serious ordeals with the other) - this shown against his loving devotion as a father (daily commute from DC to home etc.). He was born in poor working class conditions and, during his time in the Senate, was well known as the poorest Senator. (Etc. etc. rounded out with a few more details.)

What do we see in the mundoscope?

First, we see (useful in understanding the horoscope) his foreground planets: Uranus 0°30' from Descendant, Saturn 4°53' before Dsc, and Venus 4°43' and Sun 5°28' past Asc. These describe his character well. But look at the aspects plus midpoints to the angles. (From work with ingresses we've solidly confirmed that midpoints to angles should be measured in the same framework as angularity which, for horizon and meridian, means in PV longitude.) His Venus/Saturn midpoint is 0°05' from the horizon, and his Sun/Saturn 0°17' away. These are also on his Uranus. To make it easier to see, here are the mundoscope positions:

29°30' Uranus
29°43' Su/Sa
0°00' Horizon
0°05' Ve/Sa

This is quite descriptive of the defining events of his life - the sorrowful loss of loved ones (in a sudden, surprising event), the devoted father, the hardworking, sacrificing rise from his birth conditions to a life of service. It's his "story."

These contacts don't exist in the ecliptic chart, though he does have a Venus-Uranus opposition across the horizon. (But the meaning isn't really the same.)

There is another important mundane aspect, one that doesn't exist at all in his ecliptical horoscope: Moon squares Pluto (0°50'). This, too, is typical of acute loss, separation, existential confrontation, etc. - In fact, take his natal mundoscope and read it as if it were a return chart: The "eventishness" becomes more evident, it is very much a guide to the plot of his life-story.

These aspects, which are so descriptive of life events, are not as descriptive of his character. For example, while Joe has some of the Moon-Pluto character traits, some of the traits normally obvious are quite unlike him - like the tendency to pack up and take off rather than adapt to conditions. (Quite the obvious.) He's been willing to challenge authority but, then, he also has Uranus half a degree from an angle. And so forth. I'm sure Moon-Pluto root psychological traits are in him, but they aren't the primary expression: He has been steady and present. Instead, the primary Moon-Pluto expression in his life has been in emotional crisis or shock, separation, confrontation of death. Events!

One final thing: Notice that if one includes house meanings, these aspects become even more dramatically expressive: The Moon-Pluto square is between the houses of Children and Death. We probably don't need these details - Pluto is "death" enough on its own, as is Moon "children" - but the meaning becomes more obvious. Something to (cautiously) consider...

Anyway... those are my current thoughts on the subject, and things that are drawing my attention.

Jim, after reading several times, IMO, I think this thread is some of your most important astrological thoughts you have written about in a long time.

Thanks, Steve. I thought it was something that needed to be updated here. People had raised these questions in the past, and I gave the best answer I had at the time and put it on a "middle burner" to watch. The Biden chart really caught my attention, and helped congeal some others I'd seen recently.

Rereading it just now, I realized something: My current SLR has "discovered" mundane aspects of natal planets. That is, in the framework of my current SLR, my natal Mercury-Saturn squares my natal Jupiter-Uranus in the foreground: I call them "discovered" because the squares don't exist ecliptically or in my natal or local mundoscope, but do exist in the framework of my SLR.

Natal planet mundoscope positions in the SLR framework:

22°48' in 6th: r Mercury
23°47' in 3rd: r Uranus
24°11' in 3rd: r Jupiter
25°48' in 6th: r Saturn

The Mercury-Uranus square is partile. The whole set is interesting. I mention this because it was under this SLR that I pulled the above together and wrote it up. (I hadn't thought anything about the SLR at the time.)

Jim wrote:

The Biden chart really caught my attention, and helped congeal some others I'd seen recently.

I know exactly where you are coming from Jim. The Biden example is a par-excellent mundo example. I have a couple of Natal examples showing the importance you stress of never overlooking the mundo Natal Chart, because at times the mundo Natal Chart vs. the standard Ecliptic Natal Chart will show most of the symbolism for the main themes of events happening in a life. Or, in other words, at times the mundo natal will show the main symbolic natal signatures where the standard eclipto chart will not. I will post an example later from a close friend of 53 years.

SteveS wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:47 am ...at times the mundo Natal Chart vs. the standard Ecliptic Natal Chart will show most of the symbolism for the main themes of events happening in a life.

That's a strong, concise statement of what I was getting at! I think it might well be so. I find myself eager anew to look at each new chart that comes along as if it were a return chart.

So the Sun-Uranus angle aspect is vaild in my own chart then correct? If so how would I interpret this (the sun has no real other aspects).

Soft Alpaca wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:27 am So the Sun-Uranus angle aspect is vaild in my own chart then correct? If so how would I interpret this (the sun has no real other aspects).

Sun and Uranus in your chart don't have the same sort of aspect being discussed above (prime vertical aspects). They have another mathematical relationship (that I've called PVP) formed by Sun being exactly on the horizon circle and Uranus being exactly on the prime vertical circle. These aspects have demonstrated themselves in mundane astrology and I suspect they are equally important in natal astrology (but we almost never see one: you're unique in that).

Speaking of unique: That's the main feature of a Sun-Uranus aspect. Sun-Uranus combinations usuall express like this:

Go their own way, unapologetically following their own paths, persuaded that they are a “special case.” Resourceful, stimulating, but easily bored (in need of frequent stimulation). Love of freedom: bow to no authority but themselves. Progressive, future-oriented, uninhibited by convention. Adept at creative problem solving. Self-perspective usually founded in objectivity.

I think you and most people who have gotten to know you here would say that this fits you pretty well.

I don't want to digress into PVP aspects in this thread - it's not about them, and I want it to remain an enduring post on its original topic - but, to close the loop, here is the data about your Sun-Uranus PVP aspect: Ideally, an aspect between one planet on near horizon and another near the prime vertical should be measured along the circle of the meridian. I haven't figured out the math for doing that, but I do have a way that approximates it. For a 7:32 AM birth time, your Sun is 0°41' before Ascendant in altitude, the 'vertical' coordinate with respect to the horizon. Your Uranus is 0°07' after Antivertex in prime vertical amplitude, the 'vertical' coordinate with respect to the prime vertical. Adding these two numbers gives an orb for a Sun-Uranus square of 0°48', which is damn close. For planets so close to the horizon and PV, this is going to be almost exactly the orb we'd get if we could measure this directly along the circle of the meridian.

I misunderstood that this was a different kind of calculation. To put the topic back on point do I have any of the natal mundane aspects that are important? I don't have the technology to pull up my Mundo-scope not the experience to run it smoothly right off the bat I am certain.

Your specific combination is fairly fitting for yourself. At least I think it speaks for your higher intellect in extreme volumes.

Soft Alpaca wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:40 am ...do I have any of the natal mundane aspects that are important? I don't have the technology to pull up my Mundo-scope not the experience to run it smoothly right off the bat I am certain.

Them most important mundane aspect you have is one we have mentioned from the beginning: Sun exactly on Asc squares Jupiter near IC. It's slightly wider (about 4°) but most angular, and mirrors your Sagittarius-Leo luminaries.

Using smaller orbs, you have Moon square Venus 0°52' and Saturn square Neptune 0°58'. These btw are for birthplace: The energies maty have shifted if you have moved.

FYI here's a copy of your mundoscope:

I am back near my birthplace again for the time being. Thanks for the chart Jim. I'm not sure if or how either of those manifest but I'll mull it over. It's definitely an interesting concept (I live in newville in cumberland county pa btw).

The only thing I don't quite get is why I relate to Mars sometimes more I think than some of the other bodies thought I might see something here.

None the less id definitely like to see more examples of this when we asses new natal charts.

Jim, FWIW, my Natal eclipto Saturn-Pluto conjunction of almost 4 degree orb when converted to a mundoscope, calculates a partile mundo conjunction of Saturn-Pluto. You teach partile aspects "reign supreme," and after living 73 years of life, I can look back and attest this mundo partile cnj of Saturn-Pluto indeed "reigned supreme" in my life before I retired. It manifested in my life as feeling a 'heavy burden' resistance on many life levels, just as we have seen the partile foreground Saturn-Pluto conjunction in the DC 2020 Capsolar, both eclipto & mundo, manifested as a "heavy burden" "reigning supreme" for the Country with the Covid Pandemic. I forgot who coined Saturn-Pluto aspects as the "Atlas Shrugged" aspect, but IMHO it is very true. I am not sure, but I think it was the astrologer Charles Jayne who did a-lot of research with mundane aspects said mundane “line-ups” of a two planet conjunction or opposition as more potent than the same ecliptic aspects.

Yes, that aspect does indeed become partile. (Your Venus-Uranus gets much closer, also.) Though it isn't in my standard Saturn-Pluto interpretation, I do think your experiences with your father are shown by Pluto's action on your Saturn.

My current (generic) interpretation of Saturn-Pluto is:

“Runs their own show,” resists outside control. Even as an employee, wants autonomy. Lone wolf: solitary path comes naturally; partnership requires choice and effort. Rejects arbitrary expectations. Survivors: Great strength, self-reliance, and persistence in the face of hardship (stubborn, entrenched; pays the necessary price). Conscientious. Tough as nails but can become hard, cut-off, alienated, obsessive. By taking everything on themselves, can feel they bear the world's weight.

Jim wrote:

I do think your experiences with your father are shown by Pluto's action on your Saturn.

Indeed!
Jim wrote:

My current (generic) interpretation of Saturn-Pluto is:
By taking everything on themselves, can feel they bear the world's weight.

Bingo! Everything related to most of my career was put on my shoulders to “bear.” Huge responsibilities! This “weight” did not go away until after I retired.

Jim wrote:

Another subtle meaning is inherent in these two uses: Mundane factors in a chart seem to best show things that happen - as objective events - out in the world rather than only within a person's psyche. Similarly, I have come to think that mundane placements and aspects in a nativity lean more heavily to showing life events - actions, outpourings, things that "happen to us" - than ecliptical aspects. It's not that ecliptical aspects don't show life events, or that mundane aspects don't imply psychological conditions behind events, but that the mundoscope - even of a nativity - is more of an event chart. (I think we will find that ecliptical aspects in a nativity most show events when they are also mundane aspects.) Finally, to get the full impact of the meaning of "mundane," notice that this is exactly the way most astrologers who use houses understand houses. Siderealists are most committed to the importance of angles and, at most, are collectively ambivalent about houses; but, without requiring that we accept houses as valid phenomena, please note that they are most commonly used to show life areas of concrete expression - such as determining in what part of life a result will emerge. That is, houses are primarily used to express mundane (out in the world) phenomena. This congeals a broad instinct that mundane (location-specific) mathematical factors in a horoscope (such as angles and houses) have primarily a mundane ("out in the world" or objective) expression in one's life.

As I have written earlier, I think this thread by Jim is very important for the astrologer to understand. I want to elaborate further with my natal mundane partile conjunction of Saturn & Pluto in my natal 9th House. One of the main house meanings of the 9th House is “Religion & the Church.” Before I opened my first book on astrology, I visited a high grade Psychic in Chicago. She told me I would run into a severe case of “Religious Bigotry” which would cause me the most emotional pain and depression ever in my entire life. Her Husband was an astrologer and he circled my entire Natal Scope asking his wife the high grade psychic what would happen in my life with certain planetary aspects in my natal houses. I am now 73 years of age and I can now look back on my life and the Chicago Psychic nailed what would happen in my life with Saturn-Pluto in my 9th House. Now, with almost 40 years of astrological studies behind me relative to my life experiences, I can clearly see where this thread by Jim is of vast importance for the serious minded astrologer.

Here is how my natal partile mundane conjunction of Saturn-Pluto in the 9th House manifested in my life:
I was born into a very low income family next to a Drive-Inn Theater. As a young growing kid I fell into a deep love for the Movie Pictures Industry. The President of the Company who owned the Drive-Inn acted as a second father to me and recognized my love for the Theater Business. He told the Manager of the Theater to teach me everything about the Theater Business. By the time I graduated High School, I knew everything for managing and operating a Theater but was too young to take over management. During the summers at College I was taught how to book and contract movies for all the Theaters of the Company. When I left college I was offered and naturally accepted an executive position with the Company. Seven years after working with the Company, the President of the Company on the rebound married his second wife who was a fundamentalist Bible toting, avid Church goer who converted the President into his first Church going experiences. Short story of this long saga, the Stockholders of the Company secretly met with me wanting to fire the President and elect me as President---I refused out of loyalty to the President who I owed everything as a successful businessman in the Theater Business. His second wife turned out to be the religious bigot who converted the President into a religious fanatic. When I realized as a revelation the Chicago Psychic had foreseen my emotional pain and depression pertaining to the insane religious activity happening within the Company I dearly loved, I resigned from the Company 4 years before the Stockholder’s fired the President of the Company, and was rehired by the stockholders as Managing Director of the Company, which eventually led me to owning my own Theater which I sold years later and retired. As a minority stockholder (1%) I had to sit in stockholders meetings with the fired President as a majority owner (33%) with threatening lawsuits from a divided Company. My dream job with a Company I helped build turned into a living nightmare. The beginning of my nightmare started with the religious bigot woman the President married and she was working through the disguise of Religion to take over the Company.

Mundane natal partile Saturn-Pluto conjunction in my 9th House symbolizing the worst “emotional pain & depression” in my entire life. But, this major life crises eventually led me to the biggest business opportunity in my entire life with me buying for a song an old closed down Company Theater. BTW, relative to my life, I think mundane planetary conjunctions in a natal chart are the most important aspects but I have no defining words to explain this.

Confucius may be right: “Where there are crises—are opportunities”.

Reading what you said Steve, I went back to look into the two Jim pointed out in my own chart, and Saturn/Neptune: Bridges the practical & material with the idealistic & immaterial. (Most bridge it well.) Can render a vision concrete and believable, make something solid from an idea (creativity realized, plans executed; visual and musical artists, counselors, problem solvers). Frequently indifferent to material security. Devotion, loyalty (possible intrigue, deception, suspicion, betrayal). Many withdraw, enter seclusion, asylum, exile. Chronic (disabling?) physical or psychological afflictions (can include dark, troubled states, depression, disappointment, distrust, struggling with demons).


This is 100% correct, probably only matched by my Pluto/Moon, Sun/Uranus, and Mars/Venus. A constant battle between expressing our demons and letting them express us. I frequently battle expressing my dark and secluded thoughts into material art (poems, music art, people and their feelings/problems. Most of my life has been surrounded by betrayal and abandonment (mother,father, stepfather, friends etc.). I'm completely distrusting of everything and I hate "stuff". I also think this accents some of my capricorn energy for sure, the one thing about material security however, I've hardly ever had any (sometimes but rarely this goes as far as having no where to stay, most frequently it means I'm poor and not attached to many physical things).

I understand SA. I really feel like Jim is making major breakthroughs with this thread. It helps when we can take our own lives and relate to Jim’s thoughts with his certain teachings. It’s somewhat difficult to juggle/understand the two different kinds of ecliptical & mundane aspects, but it helps to know the mundane aspects are more likely to manifest externally as events. It could make a difference for a young person like you, or anyone in helping get out sooner of malefic jams when we see them developing.

Another example: Sigmund Freud's AA-rated chart has a close Moon-Neptune mundane square with Moon exactly on the 8th cusp, Neptune in the 5th: How's that for sexual mania as a foundation of psychodynamics <vbg>? (Among other ways of saying it.) - The aspect is 5-6° wide ecliptically, not all that strong a feature.

Something similar is present in Venus mundanely conjunct Pluto (0°23') in the 6th, bring first (just from the aspect) the penetration of erotic dynamics and, by house, connected either to his work or the root idea of medicine.

Sun conjunct Uranus in the 7th exists ecliptically but is a little closer mundanely.

Simply as aspects (with no other considerations), Moon-Neptune, Sun-Uranus, and Venus-Pluto are pretty interesting for summarizing his mind and work. Of these, ecliptically one is wide, one exists anyway, and one doesn't exist (unless you take a 9° orb).

,Another great example for tight mundo aspects unveiling astrological truths with a person's natal.

This may be a useful example: When I moved from birthplace to LA over 45 years ago, the different mundane aspects (different orbs) significantly shifted the list of my closest aspects. I'll list my Class 1 natal aspects, from closest to widest, first for birthplace and then for residence. They are exactly the same aspects but paint a picture of a two different people.

BIRTHPLACE
Mars-Neptune sq. 0°07' mundo
Venus-Pluto sq. 0°13'
Jupiter-Uranus conj. 0°17'
Neptune-Pluto sx. 0°46'
Venus-Uranus tr. 1°27'
Moon-Mars sx. 1°31'
Venus-Jupiter tr. 1°44'
Uranus-Neptune sq. 2°00'
Jupiter-Neptune sq. 2°16'
Mercury-Saturn conj. 2°24'
Venus-Mars sx. 2°57'

RESIDENCE
Uranus-Neptune sq. 0°10' mundo
Venus-Pluto sq. 0°13'
Jupiter-Uranus conj. 0°17'
Jupiter-Neptune sq. 0°33' mundo
Neptune-Pluto sx. 0°46'
Venus-Uranus tr. 1°27'
Moon-Mars sx. 1°31'
Mercury-Saturn conj. 1°36' mundo
Venus-Jupiter tr. 1°44'
Mars-Neptune sq. 2°25'
Venus-Mars sx. 2°57'

I have Eris,-Jupiter in Mundo-scope (Eris becoming angular naturally) it says more than just a lot about myself- it explains why I don't understand pure Jupiter energy. Eris being disruptive acts as one of Jupiters natural foils (There is some level of organization applied in Jupiters ambition needs; Eris removes this; as it actually is playing out in real life I'd take it as the
Ability to succeed dispite disruptions. Natural gathering of value dispite unknown odds.Gains footing in goals where others cannot tread. An inborn ability to achieve "dispite".

Thinking about this I am poor, I came from a family of substance abuse, but unlike Saturn I managed to use Jupiter to find other ways of life, and Eris helped me beat the ODDs. I'm an Eagle Scout who graduated the top Culinary school potentially in the world. My sick (addititive type) mom had me at 17, didn't even graduate and my dad left because he was a confused kid. Now as my 6th months are approaching at my place of work, I get a Job offer through extended family of a guest I had served (It's kind of nice Taverna 5450 Farfield PA. at the bottom of mt liberty I think). The interview is on Monday he told me to pick a day and come and and we can talk about what Im looking to do. This is coming up on my 6th month mark just as I'm getting fed up with large corp. waiter jobs instability. (I'm literally just stumbling into these Jobs dispite being in a Pandemic).

I think this is all quite true.

I got the Job! Starting (most likely) 4 days a week in the kitchen at 15$ an hour and 1-2 days FOH (likely 200-400 nights) on top of the one day a week I'm keeping at olive garden serving (for cash flow for gas/medicine).

It's all from scratch (except the spring rolls) and everyone is nice so far so I'm excited I start Monday and got the job somewhere around 12:30-1 pm on this past Monday.

I was wondering if I could get my Mundo-scope with Eris in it Jim? (Sorry if this is a lot to ask!)

If I'm noticing it correctly as well, I think my Mundo Eris-Jupiter aspect being angular is key (as I don't think I feel the Moon-Venus as strongly for example).

I finally understand what a Mundo-scope is now that I've read an article explaining how trines in the Mundo-scope were viewed as squares. I found a 9 year old blog by one Anthony Louis (When is a trine not a trine?) He did a great job explaining short and long ascension in Lehman terms.

Oddly enough I've been described as motherly, but I don't think this Moon-Venus stems past that (I have a Venus Sun aspect or midpoint come up too at some point or another that's felt very softly, Uranus just weighs a lot). I'm also curious about how to view that weird Sun Uranus aspect..

As for the Saturn-Neptune aspect I think it's definitely there and square but it's still just nuanced. Like a base speaker turned down to one or two volume.

So as for the Mundo-scope I see angular aspects definitely play a role, Eris is a core cornerstone of my personality. (I'd say Eris has probably been angular no matter everywhere I've been, though I'm not sure how if bleeds into my physical or aesthic manifestation {I dress very comfortably, chulu hat, harem pants, baja hoodie often dark colors, if not then black and warm reds olives etc}).

Side note where would the color red (perhaps crimson or brick red?) come out in my chart (this is the color people link me too the most frequently).

That article is here:
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012/01 ... t-a-trine/

It's trying to explain why trines are not "always good" talking about signs of long ascension vs short ascension.

What Dorotheus was getting at are now called aspects “in mundo,” meaning that they are measured in terms of how long planets take to rise rather than where they are on the zodiac circle. It would not be uncommon for a trine between two planets on the ecliptic (path of the Sun) to become a square when measured in terms of the difference in how long the two planets take to rise based on their sign positions (whether they are in signs of short or long ascension).

and goes on to use an analogue Placidius mundoscope.

Below are eclipto & mundo natal chart links to a close friend I have known for over 53 years. There is no doubt in my mind his two most dominating natal aspects are seen/understood with his mundo natal chart, Mercury partile 180 Jupiter & Moon partile 90 Mars. These two mundo partile aspects pours out to me as if they are angular, but obviously they are not angular, proving to me partile mundo 0, 90, 180 natal aspects “reign supreme.”
Eclipto:
https://ibb.co/g47ksFD
Mundo:
https://ibb.co/YQhPkPF

Very interesting.

I also wonder... are there 1st-to-7th house themes in the Mercury-Jupiter and/or 3rd-to-6th house themes in the Moon-Mars?

Also wondering: How do Mercury-Jupiter and, especially, Moon-Mars show that is clearly not just the expression of an Aries Sun (which could have some of the same character)?

Jim asked:

I also wonder... are there 1st-to-7th house themes in the Mercury-Jupiter and/or 3rd-to-6th house themes in the Moon-Mars?

Most definitely 1st to 7th house themes for Mercury-Jupiter: Everyone he meets or knows with communications---he leaves em and himself laughing in happy moods. 3rd-to-6th house themes for Moon-Mars for 6th house job service he has always said-- he keeps his nose to the grindstone with his habitual work habits---very hard worker expending lots of physical energy as a commercial contract painter. Moon-Mars also expresses itself secondarily as knee jerk emotional anger over certain trivial things. For sure with the Aries Sun as core traits.

Jim, I realize you are busy with job related work this week, but when you have time offer your analysis for this Natal Chart in the terms of possible life event manifestations with her class 1 natal mundane aspects. Thanks
Steph: 9/7/1960; 3:38 PM; CST; Birmingham, Alabama

SteveS wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:52 am Jim, I realize you are busy with job related work this week, but when you have time offer your analysis for this Natal Chart in the terms of possible life event manifestations with her class 1 natal mundane aspects. Thanks
Steph: 9/7/1960; 3:38 PM; CST; Birmingham, Alabama

Her mundoscope has three sets of close mundane aspects:

Moon-Mars-Jupiter T-square (horoscope has Mars-Jupiter but mundo adds Moon: Moon-Mars is closest)

Sun-Mercury-Pluto conjunction (horo has Sun-Mercury but mundo floats Pluto in the mix, with Mercury-Pluto closest)

Saturn square Neptune (doesn't exist in natal except of somewhat wide sextile) - potentially this can be linked to Sun, which is in mundane octile to both.

I'm still new to thinking about charts this way, so thanks for the chance to practice. In particular, te possibility that houses are important ignites a different part of my astrological brain that I'm not too happy to see - it tends to be more hard-edged fatalistic, locking events into special categories. (For example, an 8H Sun-Mercury-Pluto conjunction with a 9H-12H Saturn-Neptune square begins to present on first impression as morbid, pathological psychological states, while the other aspects link this to physical health: I'm not ready to hang that around her neck yet, and I'm only voicing it to "show my work" as I go and clear the mental buffer.

Going entirely on the planet natures in the aspects: The three sets of aspects show a courageous battler. Her world is not necessarily tough - in fact, Moon-Jupiter suggests it has advantages - but she stands tough, challenging, even defiant in the world's face. She has an itch for battle even where she doesn't necessarily need to - perhaps for justice, but possibly just for the defiance. She is deeply curious and possibly {nasses} people off because she won't stop asking certain questions: She isn't the type to let sleeping dogs lie.

With a strong opposition (here linked to Moon) across a cadent axis, we have to consider that there is a health issue involved. Mars-Jupiter, and especially Moon-Mars-Jupiter, normally has robust health but it can turn sour in various kinds of inflammatory conditions and conditions affecting the digestive and (more broadly) assimilative system. I think her liver is a particularly weak part. At her best, the partile Saturn-Neptune square is creative, someone who can bridge effectively between the practical-material and the ideal-immaterial; or, less positively, it shows morose states of mind, amplifies health concerns (especially mental health), material insecurity, possibly asylum or convalescence.

Looking at this more as a return chart (but not being limited to angular factors), the eventish things that emerge are mental shock, business overturns, bold action and risk-taking with a time of success from sheer audacity and inspiration, but collapsing in eventual economic and moral failure and ruin. (How's that for sounding like an old-time Medieval-inspired astrologer, lol?)

If we add the houses as interpretive factors, it mostly enhances some of these points and perhaps anchors them in narrower contexts. The 8H Sun-Mercury-Pluto, besides the psychological issues mentioned, shows confrontation with existential issues - either staring down mysteries or, perhaps, confrontation with death. It (and the complexly aspected 2H Moon) show impact on economics, attachment-detachment issues. Saturn-Neptune in 9H-12H intensifies the sense of asylum or isolation (voluntary or involuntary). Moon-Mars-Jupiter in 2H-5H-11H is complex - I'm not sure I want to go further with it - but it introduces 5-11 themes (personal vs. group-collective?) that connect to the attachment or competitive resources themes of Moon etc.

PS - I intentionally broke this into layers - the kind of astrological factors I was examining at a given moment, whether just the planet themes of the aspects, or a specific "forecast chart" sense of material events, or house themes etc. This will make it a little easier to learn something based on whatever extent these notes prove right vs. wrong.

So... how did I do?

Jim wrote:

Saturn-Neptune in 9H-12H intensifies the sense of asylum or isolation (voluntary or involuntary).

BINGO, you nailed this!

Jim, I have known Steph since she was a teenager. She was a charming outgoing person and loved life, very intelligent. She loved her Mom and was a caring person for her Mom and Step father, and took care of em during their times of health crises. Then about 12 years ago Steph became a recluse receding into a very dark hole, becoming very angry with her Mom having absolutely no contact with her Mom. Her Mom asked me to try and reach out to her trying to determine what happened to her daughter. Her Mom wrote her letters and e-mails with no response. Steph never responded to my attempts to contact her.

When I looked at Steph’s Natal Mundoscope, I clearly understood this complete personality change like day and night in Steph’s life with the mundo partile 90 of Saturn-Neptune, and mundo partile 90 Moon-Mars. This one mundoscope with people who I know well has proven and confirmed to me what you write about mundo aspects having important implications for major life events in their lives is so true, IMHO.
Ebertin writes about the “Principle” of Saturn-Neptune:

Suffering, renunciation, asceticism

And her mundo partile Saturn-Neptune is in the background of her natal but symbolized this most bizarre event in her life with a complete personality/life change. Thanks for offering your analysis.

Steve, thanks again for the chance to practice.

Do you know what triggered the shift in her (what circumstances)? This seems the missing piece. One can see something as a major event potential, but... what are the circumstances that bring it into being?

I re-read my original answer. There are some things to learn about how these aspects are working. I'm interested in seeing which approaches to the interpretation were most successful.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:38 am Her mundoscope has three sets of close mundane aspects:

Moon-Mars-Jupiter T-square (horoscope has Mars-Jupiter but mundo adds Moon: Moon-Mars is closest)

Sun-Mercury-Pluto conjunction (horo has Sun-Mercury but mundo floats Pluto in the mix, with Mercury-Pluto closest)

Saturn square Neptune (doesn't exist in natal except of somewhat wide sextile) - potentially this can be linked to Sun, which is in mundane octile to both.

Notice that it is specifically the mundane aspects. We might even have to say that it is specifically the factors that appear only in the mundoscope. For example, Marrs-Jupiter exists in the horoscope, but Moon-Mars only exists in the mundoscope (and is the closest feature). Saturn-Neptune exists only in the mundoscope. Sun-Mercury-Pluto also is descriptive of the events you reported, with only the mundoscope bringing Mercury-Pluto (cut-off communication among other things) into the mix.

...the possibility that houses are important ignites a different part of my astrological brain that I'm not too happy to see - it tends to be more hard-edged fatalistic, locking events into special categories. (For example, an 8H Sun-Mercury-Pluto conjunction with a 9H-12H Saturn-Neptune square begins to present on first impression as morbid, pathological psychological states, while the other aspects link this to physical health: I'm not ready to hang that around her neck yet, and I'm only voicing it to "show my work" as I go and clear the mental buffer.

This was really interesting. Notice that "morbid, pathological psychological states" was my first impression, something so obvious that it jumped out of the chart and wouldn't let go of my brain until I acknowledged it. (Leaping to that first-impression conclusion felt irresponsible, cartoonish. It's not just that it was simple and straightforward: It was like the crude plot outline of a cheap movie.)

My paragraph beginning, "Going entirely on the planet natures in the aspects" didn't offer anything, apparently. Even though it doesn't pertain to the events you had in mind, is the description true of her otherwise? "...a courageous battler. Her world is not necessarily tough - in fact, Moon-Jupiter suggests it has advantages - but she stands tough, challenging, even defiant in the world's face. She has an itch for battle even where she doesn't necessarily need to - perhaps for justice, but possibly just for the defiance. She is deeply curious and possibly {nasses} people off because she won't stop asking certain questions: She isn't the type to let sleeping dogs lie."

Though health issues are never more than one possibility, I'm curious whether she has the health problems I outlined (e.g., serious inflammatory problems affective digestive areas and especially her liver).

While Saturn-Neptune shows the morose state of mind and even withdrawal by itself, it was really when I started seeing the aspects through their house placements (as with my first impression above) that my brain was motivated to zero in on the answer. Overlooking the Moon-Mars-Jupiter house issues I seemed never to know what to do with, I note in particular:

If we add the houses as interpretive factors, it mostly enhances some of these points and perhaps anchors them in narrower contexts. The 8H Sun-Mercury-Pluto, besides the psychological issues mentioned, shows confrontation with existential issues - either staring down mysteries or, perhaps, confrontation with death... Saturn-Neptune in 9H-12H intensifies the sense of asylum or isolation (voluntary or involuntary)."

However, before giving the houses more credit than they deserve, I'm curious about the exact circumstances (as much as you're at liberty to share). It sounds like "asylum or isolation" was herself entirely, which is a good fit for the aspect - it sounds like there was no hospitalization or institutionalization, for example (not that the houses demand that). I wonder if there were indeed existential confrontation elements (a death scare? something else? need or inability to confront mortality?).

For the record, here is my standard interpretation of a Saturn-Neptune square, just to show that some of these things don't require the 12H house involvement at all (though it certainly helped my brain zero in). However, anything strong applying to Saturn-Neptune comes only from the mundoscope:

Saturn-Neptune wrote:Bridges the practical and material with the idealistic and immaterial. (Most bridge it well.) Can render a vision concrete and believable, make something solid from an idea (creativity realized, plans executed; visual or music artist, counselor, problem solver). Frequently indifferent to material security. Devotion, loyalty (possible intrigue, deception, suspicion, betrayal). Many withdraw, enter seclusion, asylum, exile. Chronic (disabling?) physical or psychological afflictions (can include dark, troubled states, depression, disappointment, distrust, struggling with demons).

Jim wrote

Steve, thanks again for the chance to practice.

Jim, thanks so much for this thought provoking topic, it has enlighten my astrological learning with your keen observations/understandings with mundane aspects.
Jim asked:

Do you know what triggered the shift in her (what circumstances)? This seems the missing piece.

Here is what I know: The last time I talked with Steph (years ago), she told me she had an argument with her Mother and wanted nothing more to do with her. This shocked me because Steph and her mother were very close in a loving manner always enjoying each others company, many times my wife and I were invited to mothers house with her & Steph being very gracious hosts for dinner & social activity. I talked with Steph’s sister (Laura) and was told Steph felt like her Mother did not love her anymore. Laura told me she now fears Steph may one day need to be institutionalized. As far as any physical afflictions with Steph, I don’t know, everything now appears to me mental/psychological.
Jim wrote:

Notice that it is specifically the mundane aspects. We might even have to say that it is specifically the factors that appear only in the mundoscope.

I totally agree. After knowing her for years, I was shocked when I saw her go into deep seclusion/isolation.
Jim wrote:

...the possibility that houses are important ignites a different part of my astrological brain that I'm not too happy to see - it tends to be more hard-edged fatalistic, locking events into special categories. (For example, an 8H Sun-Mercury-Pluto conjunction with a 9H-12H Saturn-Neptune square begins to present on first impression as morbid, pathological psychological states, while the other aspects link this to physical health: I'm not ready to hang that around her neck yet, and I'm only voicing it to "show my work" as I go and clear the mental buffer.

I understand Jim. When I contemplate the houses with this mundane chart, I begin to think the equal system of houses only seen/calculated with the mundoscope could be the true way to measure the true houses, which would/could resolve the convoluted issues which house system is correct. Also, I am now beginning to think much more attention should be given to partile mundane aspects with the houses involved, this could enlighten the astrologer with hard-nose destiny tracks in the natal. Again, I think your topic here is really onto something very important to the astrologer.
Jim wrote:

Her world is not necessarily tough - in fact, Moon-Jupiter suggests it has advantages - but she stands tough, challenging, even defiant in the world's face.

This is so true Jim, her sister with the wealth of her husband supports Steph financially. Without this support I don't think Steph would still be here.
Jim wrote:

While Saturn-Neptune shows the morose state of mind and even withdrawal by itself, it was really when I started seeing the aspects through their house placements (as with my first impression above) that my brain was motivated to zero in on the answer.

Exactly Jim, I understand. No way could I understand what was happening to Steph’s radical change with her life with the standard ecliptical Natal, but the mundoscope with its partile mundo aspects nailed what I was seeing happening to her. Jim, I am beginning to think when one is born with a malefic partile mundane aspect, they should definitely seriously consider relocating no matter if the mundo malefic aspect is angular or not.

And Jim, your standard Saturn-Neptune interpretation is so true in Steph’s case! Thanks again Jim for your keen astrological sights.

Bobby Fischer was known as the most remarkable/exceptional Chess Champion the World has ever known. Simply stated: Bobby Fischer exceptional ability as a World Chess Champion can’t be seen without his Mundoscope seen with the eyes/mind of a Sidereal Astrologer and the work of Ebertin’s book: “The Combination of Stellar Influences.” Footnoted in the new addition to “The Combination of Stellar Influences:”

In other charts this combination (Mars-Pluto) can mean exceptional ability.

Bobby Fischer was born with mundo Mars 00,13 conjunct DSC and mundo Pluto 01,20 conjunct ASC, for a Class 1 mundo opposition (180)! I have posted about another public figure with a Mars-Pluto Natal signature---Tom Brady, who will go down in history as the greatest NFL Quarterback ever, winning more Super Bowls than any other Quarterback in history.

Bobby Fischer’s B rated birth time: 3/9/1943; 2:39 PM; Chicago, Illinois

As a side note: Mikestar a member of this forum is donating free his time and abilities as a program writer, writing a program specifically designed for the Sidereal Astrologer clearly identifying Class 1 Mundane aspects no matter where they appear in a Natal Chart Wheel. As a Sidereal Astrologer, I thank you Mike. And again, I thank Jim for this topic I am posting under.

There are other strong Mars-Pluto traits in Fischer’s life which appeared with important events in his life, which you can read about in the below link. Also note Fischer’s Venus 00,37 conjunction to MC, with a partile 90 to his Jupiter for Venus-Jupiter “outstanding incidents” successes in his life. Also, his Venus-Jupiter 90 calculates a direct midpoint of Ve/Jup=Ur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer

Fischer's legendary match with Boris Spassky totally owned my attention as a kid when it was happening. I was reading everything I could at the time about Fischer including a memorable Time Magazine long treatment talking about how he trained and prepared. What, at the time, was surprising information was that he played several hours of tennis each day against tough opponents: What I didn't understand until then was that the brain, operating as a smooth and powerful machine, consumes energy in the same way the muscles of a more physical athlete does, and he had to have his physical body in tip-top shape.

And that (I have known ever since) is the key to Fischer's chart: If you think of chess as a geek's game in the geeks vs. jocks sense, the chart will be confusing because it is foremost the chart of an athlete.

The mental processes are there, of course. Not only does he have a suggestive Aquarius Sun, but Aquarius Sun is the most common among Grand Masters. There is something more gracious and graced than I ever saw in him personally, from that exactly angular, exalted Venus square Jupiter 0°00'. But, even without the mundoscope, the chart takes a different turn with Moon in Aries and an exactly angular, exalted Mars (square that Aries Moon). This, indeed, is an athlete's chart.

It's also an unusual, surrealistic kind of competitiveness: Mars is in Grand Trine with Uranus and Neptune, Mars-Uranus being 0°00' (two 0°00' major aspects by precisely angular, exalted planets) and Neptune only 0°04' from them.

But, yes... then the mundoscope gives the blow-away: Not only the angular, exalted Venus and Mars (in 0°50' mundane square), but Pluto only 1°20' from Asc. He was unquestionably "one in a million," a stand-out without precedent. And this gives us, as you showed, Mars opposite Pluto 1°32' and Venus square Pluto 0°42'.

Jim wrote:

But, yes... then the mundoscope gives the blow-away: Not only the angular, exalted Venus and Mars (in 0°50' mundane square), but Pluto only 1°20' from Asc. He was unquestionably "one in a million," a stand-out without precedent. And this gives us, as you showed, Mars opposite Pluto 1°32' and Venus square Pluto 0°42'.

Cyril Fagan, our father of Sidereal Astrology, innovated the mundoscope. This Natal mundoscope of Fischer stuns and shocks (Pluto) me with the same force (Mars) in which Fischer stunned/shocked (Pluto) the Chess World with his force (Mars). Indeed Jim, Fischer was “one in a million.”

Over the years, astrologers have had different views what Cyril Fagan meant when he said "mundane aspects." He likely brought this about by being a little inconsistent, i.e., sometimes meaning parans (or including parans in the larger category). Nonetheless, one point where he was quite clear is preserved in The Solunars Handbook on page 11. (I'd been looking for this reference for a while and found it on our road trip to Shasta last spring. I just came across my note, made at the time, reminding me where it was and that I wanted to post it in this thread on mundane aspects.)

Cyril Fagan wrote:The theory and method of calculation of the mundoscope was first made public in 1947 n the A.F.A. Research Bulletin No. 1. Just as the natal horoscope gives the zodiacal positions and configurations of the Sun, Moon, and planets, and their approximate house positions, the mundoscope gives their precise domal longitudes and house positions, and reveals at sight all mundane configurations. It must be remembered that, with the exception of the Moon zodiacal configurations are common to everybody born in the world on the same day, irrespective of the time of birth; and in the case of the slow-moving planets for several days, or even months, before and after the date of birth. Not so mundane configurations, which can, and frequently do, differ substantially from hour to hour, and differ completely for different localities.

It is quite clear, both from his explicit statement and from internal references to mathematical realities, that he was not talking about parans, but rather was talking about mundoscope aspects.

BTW, he doesn't explicitly say it here, but the 1947 article was written by Fagan and introduced the mundoscope as a map of PV longitudes.

Another example where the mundane aspects suddenly tell the story:

Molly Bish was born August 2, 1983, 3:55 AM EDT, Warren, MA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Molly_Bish

At age 16, after being dropped off at a pond where she worked as a lifeguard, she simply disappeared. (One witness reported a scream from the woods.) Three years later, her remains were found in another county. It seems she was grabbed and rapidly abducted.

Over the years, I've seen several published examples of this kind of incident with a strong, hard Moon-Pluto aspect. I quickly checked Molly's chart, but there was no Moon-Pluto. Overall, the chart doesn't show a tragic pattern, though it is slightly malefic dominated; that is, Neptune is on WP, Mars is widely rising. This, though, is just as appropriate for a high school life guard or any number of other things. Her Cancer-Aries luminaries show a great chance of getting in troubled in her life, though she wasn't a troubled or troubling kid. Her closest aspect is Mercury square Jupiter 0°19'.

Ah, but look at the mundoscope: Moon opposite Pluto 0°39'.

Another interesting example is actress Barbara Payton, born November 16, 1927, 9:15 PM CST, Cloquet, MN.

I don't know much about her, haven't seriously researched her, but a short biographical piece says she was primarily known for a "stormy social life and eventual battles with alcohol and drug addiction." I thought this would be a good chart to examine to see if the nativity showed this "basic life condition" - what kind of life she'd have overall. What follows is a contrast of how this is shown in the horoscope vs. the mundoscope.

The horoscope - ecliptical nativity - is a pretty good chart, though maybe a little hard in the social context. That is, it shows a woman of great strength, capable of serious professional intent: She had a Scorpio Sun and Leo Moon, the same as (say) Winston Churchill or an actor like Kenneth Branagh. It's quite powerful, usually quite positive. Luminaries unafflicted (Moon is in wider conjunction with Neptune, which is hardly strong enough to be called afflicted). On the other hand, the Scorpio Sun is 09' from exact trine to Jupiter. The only foreground planet is Venus. I'd call this a pretty good chart.

But I think the she probably ran into a range of problems women ran into in Hollywood during the '50s and '60s. "Stormy social life" sounds like this Scorpio-Leo simply lived her life off-camera as boldly and publicly as a man would, and that would have been a "social problem" of the time. The worst aspect in the chart is that moderately foreground Venus sextile Saturn - hardly a terrible aspect in a fundamentally positive chart and, in fact, having advantages for career and capable of being spun into a positive contribution to a stable personal life. Her eventual alcohol and drug problems show mildly: Scorpio Sun is one of the vulnerable signs and there is a wider Mercury-Mars conjunction, though I think Mars in Libra was the real culprit: See my standard interpretation of it for the problems it can cause: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32#p121

Mars in Libra could describe ALL her problems in the summary above. However, one sign-placement doesn't determine a life, and this could also have been very career-effective in this fundamentally positive horoscope.


However, when we switch to the mundoscope we see something quite different. The most important new aspect is Moon square Mars 1°29'. Even more than her Scorpio-Leo luminaries (but consistent with them), this is a "take no guff" aspect of someone strong and driving. It's also quite consistent with a "stormy social life" with "battles with alcohol and drug addiction." It's quite an expressive aspect! Mercury square Neptune 0°16' can compound other problems and derail the life a bit if not properly routed. Also, her Mercury-Mars conjunction is closer in mundo, only 3°03'.

Since I don't know much about her, I don't know whether subtleties of the horoscope emerged obviously into her life. However, looking simply at the horoscope, it is what we'd call a basically good chart with no more problems than an "average happy, normal person." I think it's biggest problems are the ones mentioned above, i.e., being too tough for a woman of the time, plus the Mars in Libra traits. However, the mundoscope is much more forthright about her problems. That all of these mundane aspects concentrate on the 5th cusp - connected not only to dramatic self-expression (her profession) but to love affairs and diverse pursuit of pleasure - seems to tie up the picture of (what we know of) her life with a bow.

Looking into the Wikipedia bio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Payton

If you want to dig into her further, look at her chart relocated to Odessa, TX, where her family moved. It was a location where this teenager rebelled, broke loose, and in other senses flourished. Uranus and Pluto move to her angles there, and she picked up a partile mundane Moon-Saturn square.

The Uranus-Pluto in Odessa is obvious because they're both on angles, they their aspect wasn't all that close. However, relocate her to Hollywood, CA and we see an outright Uranus-Pluto square 2°15' and - perhaps most telling - a new mundane Saturn-Neptune square 1°10'. This (other than, perhaps, her birthplace mundane Moon-Mars square) is the first aspect we've seen that throws her mostly-positive nativity into a problem state. Also (for addiction) her Mercury-Mars mundane conjunction has moved closer, now 2°24'.

I find this fascinating! I am certain this window on personal mundane aspects is my best discovery of the last year. Every week, it shifts even more how I look at horoscopes. Barbara Payton makes a great study for this.

Jim wrote:

I find this fascinating! I am certain this window on personal mundane aspects is my best discovery of the last year. Every week, it shifts even more how I look at horoscopes. Barbara Payton makes a great study for this.

Indeed Jim! The more I pay attention to mundane aspects the more I become fascinated!

A question to ponder (and maybe answer, at some future time, after long enough observation that can provide enough experiential info for a conclusion one way or the other):

How operative are one's natal mundane aspects when one moves/lives away from the natal location?
(I.e. they are, as such, by definition, location-dependent: they only exist within a particular given context of space/locality.)

They might indeed only exist at a particular location. (I think there's a description somewhere or other on the forum.)

Something I do know is that one normally sees a sharp, accurate contrast when one checks the differences between mundane aspects (what's gained, what's lost) in different locations. At the very least, this means that there is a difference in strength (even if old ones don't disappear entirely, they at least weaken, it seems).

The main question is whether natal mundane aspects persist even if weakened. I'm less sure about this. My bias is that they do persist, but this might be just seeing the residuals of established character patterns, i.e., once someone has spent years acting and responding in certain ways, these tend to last (at least for a long time) in the personality independent of whether an aspect persists. While I know that new angular planets are more or less instantaneous (people can feel natal planet angularities merely driving through an area), mundane aspects may need a time to stabilize through actual acted out behaviors.

For the entire 900+ study charts catalogue, I have every Class 1 natal aspect catalogued (of the 10 core planets), including Class 1 hard aspects where there is not a matching Class 1 ecliptical aspect. This allows preparing lists. I'll post something in the next comment that might be useful in drawing a conclusion.

Danica wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:37 am BTW, Jim, I've just noticed that in LA your Sun is exactly at the Sedna/Eris Midpoint in-mundo (with Sedna herself being tightly interlocked with the Ne-Ur-Ju trio).

I have no basis for concluding that midpoints (other than those involving angles) "exist" in a mundoscope. They may, or may not. But, yes, I've seen that these tend to come to the foreground together in an SLR. - Sedna is tightly connected to Ju-Ur-Ne anyway (ecliptically), and the Mars-Sedna is much stronger mundanely.

Here follow people with a Class 1 SUN-JUPITER hard mundane aspect natally/. I don't know how many of these remained in their birthplace most of their lives. Are these people unusually representative of Sun-Jupiter? Is there a sense that after they moved from home, this faded in them or they lost it? (My first impression is that it would be hard to say that these people lost any of that trait.)

Alan Hale Jr., Alanis Morissette, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Bill Gates,
Billie Jean King, Rev. Billy Graham, Bonnie Langford, Bonnie Raitt, Carmen Electra, King Charles VIII, Sec. Condoleezza Rice, VP Dick Cheney, Edgar Degas, Queen Elizabeth Stuart, Ethel Kennedy, Giorgio Armani, Harry Houdini, Helen Mirren, Henri Desiré Landru, Hermann Goering, Jesse Jackson, Jonas Salk, Martin Luther King, Paul Cezanne, Placido Domingo, R.D. Laing, Sydney Pollack, William Blake