Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

In the instructions on interpreting Lunar Returns,

Jim Eshelman wrote:Think of planets in terms of natural opposites, and whether one, the other, neither, or both are foreground. For example, note the difference of:

And Venus and Mars are given as examples of such polarity. This made me think...

Are there five specific pairs of naturally opposite planets, or is this contextual? Uranus, for instance, could be contrasted to either Saturn or Neptune. Venus with Mercury as well as with Mars. If I were to think of five specific pairs, they would be, from my most sure to least sure:

Sun & Moon
Venus & Mars
Jupiter & Pluto
Saturn & Uranus
Mercury & Neptune

Thoughts?

Parto wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:51 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:Think of planets in terms of natural opposites, and whether one, the other, neither, or both are foreground. For example, note the difference of:

And Venus and Mars are given as examples of such polarity. This made me think...

Are there five specific pairs of naturally opposite planets, or is this contextual? Uranus, for instance, could be contrasted to either Saturn or Neptune. Venus with Mercury as well as with Mars. If I were to think of five specific pairs, they would be, from my most sure to least sure:

Sun & Moon
Venus & Mars
Jupiter & Pluto
Saturn & Uranus
Mercury & Neptune

There are different ways of doing this. (And one can assess it across all 45 pairs of planets and see many secondary examples.) I'll give you the two most useful (though I find little to question in the pairs you came up with.)

The usual polarities are: Moon-Sun, Venus-Mars, Jupiter-Saturn, Uranus-Neptune, Mercury-Pluto.

One can also assess this by planets ruling opposite signs. This was composed mostly on classic rulerships so there is little of modern rulerships leaking into it. The main considerations are: Sun-Saturn and Moon-Saturn, Mercury-Jupiter, Venus-Mars. One could add things like Mercury-Neptune, Venus-Pluto, and Sun-Uranus.

But this is just a start. (Perhaps the first set above is the best place to start, but the mind can go many places.) When you encounter an individual chart, it's useful to observe a strong planetary principle and then consider how strong the range of typical and atypical planets plays out. Also to notice non-matching factors being strong at the same time, which gives some of the most interesting dynamics in chart analysis. Your Jupiter-Pluto is a good example. Another important one is Moon-Mars (Gauquelin observed that Moon and Mars character traits and occupations were almost perfect mirror copies of each other; Church of Light used to list Moon and Mars as natural "antidotes" for the excesses of each other; and, considering exaltations, Moon and Mars have opposing dignities in Taurus-Scorpio and Cancer-Capricorn). Neptune is the opposite of all the egoic planets, and also especially opposite the rigid, bounding Saturn. Just to throw some examples.

The Old World astrology ideas of "planetary friends & enemies" occasionally is useful, expanding our thinking about the gradients of how planet relates. The "friends & enemies" lists are a problem primarily if they are treated rigidly and schematically, but useful if looked at like real friendship and enmity between people (i.e., usually it's complicated and not one-dimensional).

For example, it's easy to observe that Mars thrives in Leo and is, in many ways, fairly unleashed. We could start thinking Mars in Leo needs some kind of dignity but the simple idea that Mars is friends with Sun snaps it all into place: Mars is a guest in a friend's house, and they're friends because, while different from each other, they have a lot in common and are generally compatible with each other. It's not complicated (and it keeps us from making monstrosities out of ever-overflowing rulership lists).

Taking just the opposite signs of rulership and exaltation - basic dignities - we can compile a new, somewhat expanded list of planetary polarities. The list I will use is:

Moon Venus TAURUS === SCORPIO Mars
Mercury GEMINI === SAGITTARIUS Jupiter
Moon Jupiter CANCER === CAPRICORN Mars Saturn
Sun LEO === AQUARIUS Uranus
Mercury VIRGO === PISCES Venus Neptune
Venus Saturn LIBRA === ARIES Sun Pluto

This gives this list of planetary polarities:

Moon-Mars
Moon-Saturn
Sun-Venus
Sun-Saturn
Sun-Uranus
Mercury-Venus
Mercury-Jupiter
Mercury-Neptune
Venus-Mars
Venus-Pluto
Mars-Jupiter
Jupiter-Saturn
Saturn-Pluto

Just playing around with ideas...

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:00 pmThe usual polarities are: Moon-Sun, Venus-Mars, Jupiter-Saturn, Uranus-Neptune, Mercury-Pluto.

I notice this list exactly pairs each benefic with a malefic. That might add to its practical value.

Regarding polarity in dignities and debilities, I've always found interesting how rich the mix is, making the constellations more distinct and complex than any single planet involved, even if one were to set aside their quadruplicity and archetype. There are interplays that one would expect and a few that one perhaps wouldn't (if approaching the signs for the first time with some preconceived notion). The most obvious polarity, Moon-Sun, isn't anywhere among the signs. Sun is put opposite Uranus, which wouldn't occur to me to do for a long time if I only knew about the planets. Yet the Leo-Aquarius polarity is easy to see at a glance.

From looking at all these pairs of planets, I find that it's always possible to find characteristics among them that justify a polarity of sorts, though some are trickier. Besides the aforementioned Sun-Uranus, Mercury-Jupiter took some thought to remember that Mercury's reality patterning and possible rigidity can be too constraining to Jupiter's need for expansion and optimism ("never tell me the odds" sort of thing).

What sort of polarity one places one's attention on depends on the chart and what is being assessed there at the moment, I suppose.

Planets being defined as true opposites makes me a little wary. Maybe it's a scale (you forget the use of Pluto in Gemini in my opinion btw), or maybe again not.. I found it easiest to work my way out from the moon, the planets are far more political for our bipartisan system and thus I don't think it can be applied to them (there are no true opposites only ideas that are more or less in line with one another, ie they hold hold court).

The Moon holds court with Venus and Neptune first. Neptune and Venus will hold court with Jupiter. None of them are fond of Saturn. However both saturn and Neptune like Pluto. None of these except for Jupiter (and now add Mars) hold court with the Sun(Pluto is Netural). Mercury is in some ways opposite of Jupiter and Pluto, a higher octave of Uranus (mercury does/could court with Mars as well but often with too many adverse effects on individual's). Uranus then only to me pairs well with Mars, Mercury and from time to time Pluto.

The hand shake goes along the lines then of Moon-Venus--Neptune-Jupiter-Uranus-Mars-Pluto-Sun-Mercury-Saturn. Probably a super delaciate balance (and probably why every (super) stellium person I meet is so off kilter).

Soft Alpaca wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:47 pmHowever both saturn and Neptune like Pluto.

How so?

Parto wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:44 pm Regarding polarity in dignities and debilities, I've always found interesting how rich the mix is, making the constellations more distinct and complex than any single planet involved, even if one were to set aside their quadruplicity and archetype.

Yes. Planets are fundamental forces (perhaps best described in human condition as fundamental needs). Signs, on the other hands, are archetypes, i.e., pools of potential symbols which fixate our psyches. They're immeasurable in that sense.

I see the "building up" of sign meanings pretty similarly to aspects. The strongest aspect is the conjunction and, nearly as strongly (with barely a perceptible difference) the opposition. The next-strongest aspect influence is the square. Next strongest (and more passive, less dynamic) is the trine and then (perhaps the same, perhaps a little less) the sextile.

Similarly, what are easily the strongest keys to a sign are itself (conjunction) and (nearly as strongly, with barely a perceptible difference) its opposite sign. These two co-define each other. The easiest way to see this is to think about the dignified and debilited planets: Virgo and Pisces are both defined by Mercury, Venus, and Neptune, but in reciprocal ways. Virgo as as easy to describe as being un-Venus and un-Neptune as to describe it as mercurial - it's almost hard to decide on which side of the equation to start! These along make up about 80% of a sign's nature (and we haven't even gotten to the commonalities of polarities such as the Eros of Taurus-Scorpio, the individual within society of Leo-Aquarius, the spiraling polar inequities into equilibrium of Libra-Aries, the nearly matched but oh-so-difference security containment of Cancer-Capricorn - and more.

After this, the next strongest influence (and the only remaining dynamic one) is by the square - quadruplicities. Virgo and Pisces have qualities that are more like those of Gemini and Sagittarius than any of them is like any other sign.

Next come the triplicities. But the trine is not just weaker than the square, it is also less dynamic, so there is a passive commonality of psychological characteristic that Virgo shares with Capricorn and Taurus, etc. The sextets then somewhat consolidate the triplicities, though by now it is so subtle that there is rarely a reason to notice that six of them are more perceiving and the other six more appraising.

Finally, Ptolemy's final category of "aspect," the inconjuncts, or anti-aspects - the semi-sextile and quincunx relationships. This appears in sign characterization by the observations that adjacent signs, in most respects, are thoroughly disjunct: They are usually fundamentally unfitting with each other.

...Mercury-Jupiter took some thought to remember that Mercury's reality patterning and possible rigidity can be too constraining to Jupiter's need for expansion and optimism ("never tell me the odds" sort of thing).

Mercury is fact-based. Jupiter has a fundamentally religious type of thinking. Mercury by itself likes to have hands-on, to be putting the picture puzzle together with his or her own hands, whereas Jupiter prefers to be abstracted to a great height and contemplate from a distance. It's the ideal difference between elementary school and grad school.

What sort of polarity one places one's attention on depends on the chart and what is being assessed there at the moment, i suppose.

Yes. In Donald Trump's chart, the singularly angular Mars is sharply contrasted to Venus being background and afflicted - and these speak to his Taurus-Scorpio luminaries opposed, his chart redundantly putting Venus and Mars at odds to each other and Mars prevailing. In Joe Biden's chart, the rising Venus isn't as at odds with the background Mars because his fundamental character is Scorpio-Aries - no real conflict. The polar cue in his chart is likely Sun vs. Moon, his Sun being foreground and Moon background, his Moon being in the exaltation of Sun and his Sun in the fall of Moon. Kamala Harris has only Saturn foreground (and aspecting both luminaries, one of which is in Saturn's exaltation) and her Jupiter background and afflicted. It's contextual.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:37 pmSigns, on the other hands, are archetypes, i.e., pools of potential symbols which fixate our psyches. They're immeasurable in that sense.

Would you say there is a specialness to the signs compared to other archetypes? (Perhaps that they are the archetypes.)

Finally, Ptolemy's final category of "aspect," the inconjuncts, or anti-aspects - the semi-sextile and quincunx relationships. This appears in sign characterization by the observations that adjacent signs, in most respects, are thoroughly disjunct: They are usually fundamentally unfitting with each other.

I remember you mentioned something like this in passing about synastry. Very interesting notion.

Yes. In Donald Trump's chart, the singularly angular Mars is sharply contrasted to Venus being background and afflicted - and these speak to his Taurus-Scorpio luminaries opposed, his chart redundantly putting Venus and Mars at odds to each other and Mars prevailing.

Related to failure in individuation, maybe? (Giving voice to the Taurus Sun.) Contributing to it, being amped up by it, or both.

Parto wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:15 pm Would you say there is a specialness to the signs compared to other archetypes? (Perhaps that they are the archetypes.)

No. Archetypes are archetypes. They're all equally eternally and unlimited by definition.

Yes. In Donald Trump's chart, the singularly angular Mars is sharply contrasted to Venus being background and afflicted - and these speak to his Taurus-Scorpio luminaries opposed, his chart redundantly putting Venus and Mars at odds to each other and Mars prevailing.

Related to failure in individuation, maybe? (Giving voice to the Taurus Sun.) Contributing to it, being amped up by it, or both.

I've tended to see and say it from the opposite side: The favoring the Scorpio end of the axis encouraged, I think, lifelong infantility.

Saturn and Neptune are heavy demanding planets, Pluto can actually hold it's own in their court (Saturn's Individuality and Neptune a personal reality fall in life with Pluto's do it alone introspective approach on understanding existence and life).

As for the Leo-Aquarius it's all blended for me as well their (I have a Leo moon and a Sun only aspected by Uranus). The Eros of Scorpio/Taurus the Shadow of capricorn/cancer isn't matched the same by the Breath shared between Aquarius/Leo (they both share a fundamental attachment to too very energy heavy bodies, leo gets life from chutzpah the breath of it's core the sun, and Aquarius gets life from the breath of the universe, reaching all they way out to Uranus). However that is the irony, leo gets its power from inward and expresses it outward, Aquarius breaths in from the universe and collects inward.

Soft Alpaca wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:58 am However that is the irony, leo gets its power from inward and expresses it outward, Aquarius breaths in from the universe and collects inward.

That's a most interesting, original thought.

I don't know if I agree or disagree... have to think about it (like all metaphors)... but it's one of the most original metaphors of the signs I've seen in some time. Thanks.

It even reflects in Leos tendency to be extroverted and Aquarius being more introverted. The reason why I think the Moon in these signs are so different from the sun is because the lunar energy very much goes against both Uranus and the Suns power core focus. Me being a Moon leo myself I almost find myself relate more to moon in Aquarius.

I'd also say the signs are closely bound to their opposites, and share a lot of fundamental similarities with them despite all their differences. Like you cannot really understand a sign without its opposite.

Eros/Thanatos - Taurus/Scorpio
Individual/Society - Gemini/Sagittarius
Mirrors/Shadows - Cancer/Capricorn
Ego/Collective - Leo/Aquarius
Rationality/Mysticism - Virgo/Pisces
Law/Politics - Libra/Aries

A few broad basic concepts. There's a lot more archetypal polarities shared among opposing signs. (EX: "All is fair in love and war." is a very Taurus/Scorpio statement, and it shows how love/lust/intimacy and war/violence/power are closely linked. The same instincts drive both sets of behaviors.)

Again: Not bad! Though I'd say "Reason/Unreason" because "Rationality/Mysticism" is too specific. And I'm not sure there is that much difference between law and politics; I think the flavor (but necessarily the exact best articulation) of the Libra-Aries difference might be Democracy-Autocracy, sometimes taking the (overly specialized) form of Justice vs. Tyranny.

Some great words none the less to me Libra is Structure(Order,law, justice) simply put and Aries Is Destruction (Revolution, Tyranny). Aries isn't about just destroying "the people" (a tyrant) but also is a Rebel (Guy Fawkes). It's more systematic.

I'll just toss this out here. It seems to me that, among planets, Saturn is the natural opposite of all the rest. So, for example, the sun is light, Saturn is dark; the moon is youth, Saturn is old age; Mercury is loquacious, fast, mischievous, Saturn is taciturn, slow, serious; Venus is pleasant, Saturn is unpleasant; etc. You can take almost any "keyword" associated with a planet, and find that Saturn is associated with the opposite.

It's because Saturn is the ruler of the discontent (Capricorn energy is also very much like this in general).

Pluto is extreme, Saturn more Subtle. Neptune Is asleep/a dreamer Saturn is an insomniac and a night owl, Uranus is unshackling, Saturns lead and chains. Saturn is both Kronos and Binah. Eventually it's even Conservation (Life) versus Intuition (Death).. as a Saturn person begins to unfold reality unto what is really is (the ultimate unshackling happens here if you ask me).