Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

Jim, if there happened to be a valid Earth Zodiac coded in Nature, could you explain with your mundane knowledge how this would help the Sidereal Mundane Astrologer?

SteveS wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:05 pm Jim, if there happened to be a valid Earth Zodiac coded in Nature, could you explain with your mundane knowledge how this would help the Sidereal Mundane Astrologer?

I don't know what you mean by this. More details?

Part of the confusion is that the Sidereal zodiac is actually "coded in Nature," but it's not anything I'd call an "Earth zodiac." That term would seem to be referring to the Tropical zodiac (which we have abundant evidence doesn't exist), e.g., the way Uranian astrologers call the Tropical zodiac their "Earth Houses," equal divisions from the VP. - But, again, all the "30 possible zodiac" work shows that this doesn't exist.

What I mean by an "Earth Zodiac" is that all the longitudes on Earth had a valid exact degree, minute, second for a MC with a beginning point of an exact degree of the Sidereal Zodiac fixed at a particular coordinate on Earth.

No. Several have been tried over the decades. The most popular were Tropical 0 Aries at Greenwich and Alebaran at Gizeh, but neither of them (or any other I know) ever amounted to anything.

Solar Fire does have a way to draw charts thus way.

If a complete new method was considered with a fixed zero point of the Sidereal Zodiac at a fixed Earth Location, how long would it take you to test it for solid validityy with major events in other parts of the historic World?

It's tedious in SF but can be done. I'd suggest doing my Fires collection since there are so many and we know exactly what should be on angles. I suppose the method would be to set up the event chart for the other cusp framework.

The Earth looked at from Heaven, is like a ball with twelve leathern stripes, each of a different colour... Plato

Plato was taught by the Priests of Egypt. Only if there was a zero point in the Sidereal Zodiac set to a specific location could a Sidereal Astrologer begin to attempt to prove a fixed "Earth Zodiac." The only Sidereal Astrologer I know who could even begin to attempt proving an "Earth Zodiac" is the host of this Forum, I am clueless how to begin...

I'll spot check if you give the definition you want tested. It's too tedious to "go fishing," but I can spot check a specific theory.

Jim, if there is a natural law fixed Earth Zodiac in Nature set to a fixed location on earth, it is at Giza coded in with the Precession Cycle and the SVP. My best guess, it is set to app 10,500 BC with 30 degrees Leo (Sphinx) on the ASC, maybe with the Star Zeta Orion (Great Pyramid) on the MC. Is this astronomical possible? There is strong circumstantial evidence Giza with its monuments represents Zep Tepi, the “First Time.” This 10,500 BC could have correlated to when the Heavens (stars) “above” matched major featured areas on earth “below.” For example, the Milky Way perfectly lined-up with the Nile River. I still don't understand, even if true, how a true Earth Zodiac would help the Sidereal Mundane Astrologer.

SteveS wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:24 am I still don't understand, even if true, how a true Earth Zodiac would help the Sidereal Mundane Astrologer.

Me either. What makes you think it might?

I'm curious what got you thinking about this yesterday. Usually I see that something you have read captures your attention and starts you down a path of curiosity and exploration. Sometimes, it takes me a while to discover what your real interest is in the matter, so I thought, this time, I'd ask what got you thinking about this.

SteveS wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:24 am Jim, if there is a natural law fixed Earth Zodiac in Nature set to a fixed location on earth, it is at Giza coded in with the Precession Cycle and the SVP.

LOL, when I typed that I knew that's the one that would catch your imagination. To speed the discussion along, I should mention that I specifically tested that one (back in the '70s and again in the last couple of years) and there's nothing to it. - By "nothing to it" I mean that events of a common nature (such as terrible fires) did not have any particular prominence of fitting planets on the location's "permanent" angles.

Or, actually, what I tested wasn't linked to the SVP. It was explicitly linked the Aldebaran at Giza. But that's only going to differ by a few minutes of arc, so it's all the same in practice.

I think the whole premise was one of those ideas conceived in the late 19th, early 20th century by astrologers with limited calculation resources who would take any opportunity to get one "permanent" chart and lock it down so they didn't have to keep setting up new charts - similar to Evangeline Adams' "accidental Ascendant," which was her way of doing horary by always using the client's natal house cusps (but with current planets) - since she really couldn't calculate an Ascendant very easily and, once she had the natal chart, she was going to do everything she could do never have to calculate another chart for that person!

My best guess, it is set to app 10,500 BC with 30 degrees Leo (Sphinx) on the ASC, maybe with the Star Zeta Orion (Great Pyramid) on the MC. Is this astronomical possible?

Alnitak is pretty minor star. But, to answer your question about whether it is possible, of course it is - you can define any point in the sky as a measuring point if you want. First practical question, though: Do you mean to define Alnitak's Sidereal longitude as the MC, or (as we would most commonly measure angularity) it's right ascension?

Alnitak is so minor a star that I'd have to get some coordinates and reconfigure Solar Fire to show it - I don't have it on any of my working star lists. But, to show you how this would work, let's try Aldebaran. (Reminder: I've already tested this with a large block of data, and the approach didn't produce anything useful.) Let's postulate that Aldebaran is permanently on MC for the exact location of the Great Pyramid. The Great Pyramid is at 29N58'45" 31E08'03". Fixed stars do have some (small) proper motion, and the RA is subject to precession, so we need to pick a date: Let's use the date of the 2021 Capsolar. (BTW, the time of year does alter this a little because Earth is viewing the star from different places in Earth's orbit about Sun - there is a parallax factor - but it's quite small for our current purposes.

On January 15, 2021 (arbitrary date), I calculate for 29N58'45" 31E08'03". Aldebaran's exact longitude is 15°03'18" Taurus, RA 69°17'. If we calculate its culmination in longitude, then it gives us a "working chart" - one example of the "Aldebaran marks Giza" - of January 14, 2021, 18:51:27 UT. At Giza, this has a Midheaven of 15°03'18" Taurus. If you set up a chart for this moment and place, you can then relocate it to any other place on Earth to get the "permanent" angles for that location (based on this theory that I think is an invalid theory).

(They aren't really "permanent" angles, but in recent decades - maybe centuries - they will shift only a few minutes, so it's good enough for testing.)

For example, relocate this chart to Washington, DC and you will get MC 22°49' Capricorn, Asc 15°56' Taurus (only coincidentally within a degree of Aldebaran - don't get thrown by that).

Of course, this would be different if Aldebaran were defined as culminating in RA instead of longitude. With RA of Aldebaran 69°17', and RA of the chart I just gave you having a Giza RAMC of 68°27', the "define Aldebaran on MC in RA at Giza" chart would have to be 0°50' later = 0:03:20 later. But let's ignore that from now because this is only an example. (It would force the angles of every location forward almost 1°.)

So, as an example, do these "permanent" DC angles respond to outstanding events in U.S. history?

You find a few examples that, in isolation, are really good. For the Oklahoma City bombing, transiting Mars crossed the Washington "permanent" IC. For JFK's murder, Saturn was on that degree - really good! Columbine occurred while Uranus and Pluto were crossing Washington angles. But these single cases don't hold up across other events. These, as good as they look, are statistically infrequent.

For example, we either get nothing, or very modest showings (like, say, a Mercury transit that doesn't tell us anything) across explicit dates of financial crisis, such as the '29 market crash, the '87 crash, and the 2/20/2020 plunge (which also was at a peak of other Covid-related "diving off a cliff" news). The worst fire directly relating to the capital, the burning of Washington itself in 1814, had nothing within 1° of the "world" angles for DC (and nothing nearby that fit the event). Though JFK's murder showed well, Lincoln's had nothing of note. Though Columbine had strong planets, Sandy Hook had Jupiter crossing the DC Asc.

The San Francisco earthquake (which, occurring on the opposite side of the continent from Washington, had echoing repercussions in the U.S. economy for years) - nothing. When John Glenn went into space, nothing. For the Moon landing, nothing. For 9/11, Venus transiting the IC! The Afghan war that followed a month later, nothing. The Fall of Saigon could be taken as an hour of U.S. embarrassment, so Neptune on Descendant is fine enough symbolism, and Hiroshima had Mars on Asc (since we already know Mars conjoined Aldebaran for that event) - as good as symbolism gets! But Pearl Harbor had nothing. U.S. entry into WW I has nothing. Declaration of the War of 1812 has Mercury (lol, it was a declaration) which isn't that persuasive to me. VJ Day ending WW II has nothing.

The number of major events with "hits" is tiny - and there are about as many bad ones as good ones.

This doesn't, of course, say that a different geographic fiducial wouldn't produce strong, useful results (but I'm not very optimistic).

JSAD wrote and asked:

Me either. What makes you think it might?

In the book “Mundane Astrology” by Baigent, Campion, Harvey; Chapter 11: “Where On Earth”; ‘The Search for the Earth Zodiac’, Harvey cites 8 astrologers with their research with MC degrees for major cities. Harvey also quotes the above quoted Plato words headlining Chapter 11.

Jim asked:

I'm curious what got you thinking about this yesterday.

Many things! But probably the most important it could be: IF there is a true Earth Zodiac it could possibly help a Sidereal Mundane Astrologer pin-point or least narrow down areas on the globe WHERE a Sidereal Solar Ingress chart may manifest its main symbolic effects when we see stuff that applies to the whole world, like the 2021 Cansolar. But only if the Earth Zodiac globe offered true locality MC's, I think but don't fully understand.

And then several years ago (1997) I fell down a deep Rabbit Hole when I discovered Robert Bauval’s astronomical work with the monuments on the Giza Plateau, it impressed me greatly only because I had some knowledge of Fagan's work with the Sidereal Zodiac. Giza became alive to me in a Sidereal Zodiac manner! AFAIC, what exists on the Giza Plateau pertaining to Bauval’s precessional astronomical discoveries, combined with R.T. Rundle Clark’s book: “Myth and Symbol in Ancient Egypt” written long before Bauval’s Giza astronomical discoveries, where Clark’s life-long work concluded that the culture of Ancient Egypt main points of their symbols/myths has to do with Ancient Egypt's culture referencing a “Zep Tepi” the “First Time”. Bauval believes his astronomical Giza discoveries proves the monuments on Giza is a Precessional Scope of “Zep Tepi” the “First Time, but Bauval is an engineer by trade--not an astrologer. If Bauval's Giza astronomical discoveries are true, then imo, this astronomical realm at Giza belongs exclusively to a Sidereal Astrologer such as yourself who is gifted with an acute astronomical mind pertaining to the Sidereal Zodiac to as what it could mean to things astrological in the mundane realm of things. But, when we speculate on the word "could" we fall down Rabbit Holes.

SteveS wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:34 am IF there is a true Earth Zodiac it could possibly help a Sidereal Mundane Astrologer pin-point or least narrow down areas on the globe WHERE a Sidereal Solar Ingress chart may manifest its main symbolic effects when we see stuff that applies to the whole world, like the 2021 Cansolar.

I have two views on this.

First, I don't know that we want to localize it. Worldwide influences (such as ingress Moon aspects, transits to ingress or progressed ingress Moon, progressed Moon aspects) are truly worldwide. It's not just, "We don't know where it will manifest;" rather, it's, "This manifests everywhere!"

It took me a while to catch on to the value of this. Having a truly worldwide aspect comes out in two different ways. Most of the time, the lunar aspects work everywhere a little bit differently, expressing through the filter of locally angular planets. (We have Moon-Pluto every week, but "Jupiter angular and Moon conjunct Pluto" comes out differently than "Saturn angular and Moon conjunct Pluto.") The other way they work is that they truly affect the world at once, showing something that is common to the entire world.

Example: Krakatoa's eruption was a local phenomenon in Indonesia but it affected the whole world (at the time and for five years after). Despite Bradley's famous Caplunar find for this eruption, the charts for the island where the eruption occurred aren't all that exciting. However, it had worldwide signals: A dormant Cansolar had a 04' Moon-Mars opposition with Mars tightly flanked by Saturn and Pluto (Mo-Ma near Sa/Pl midpoint). Then CanQ Moon opposed Saturn for two months that included the eruption. Locally, the solar ingresses sucked, but the Caplunar and quotidian was a classic. What we could anticipate, though is a worldwide effect for the period of the Cansolar and concentrated in that two months.

Example: World War II's start was preceded by a stream of charts with very close (usually partile) Moon-Mars aspects. These occurred in the Capsolar, Cansolar, Caplunar, Arilunar, and (if I recall Bradley's article correctly) every lunar ingress for at least a month before. These were sometimes angular in critical areas but mostly not. Their effect was truly worldwide, triggering events that affected everywhere.

Example: Covid hit as I was starting to use this approach to worldwide aspects intentionally. There were times - transits to angles, for example - where I could tell that a problem or grace would be specific to the U.S. Other times, I could tell that it would not be specific to the U.S. because it was an aspect to an ingress Moon or progressed Moon, affecting everyone. During (for example) the recent months of transiting Saturn and Uranus aspect DC's Capsolar angles, my Bridge interpretations were different for transiting Mars crossing a Capsolar or Cansolar angle vs. transiting Mars aspect an ingress Moon - even though "Mars transits angle" and "Mars transits Moon" or roughly the same interpretation. The difference is that, for the former, I could write, "the U.S. will experience a rise in blah blah blah," and for the latter, "the world will experience a rise in blah blah that is not limited to the U.S."

This is useful! It can be applied locally AND it can distinguish world-spanning impact from purely local impact. Every year or two when we have a few weeks of Saturn transiting Capsolar/CapQ Moon or a progressed Moon-Saturn aspect, I simply know that almost every day there will be headlines of a new "lots of death" story, that these stories will be far more common than usual, and that they will come from literally every corner of the world.

I'll cover my other two thoughts in the next comment.

Besides it being useful to have universal aspects that truly can't be localized, my second main thought is that we do, however, have ways to localize them in terms of maximum impact: It's where they also fall on angles. This Cansolar Moon-Sun-Pluto will be felt in broad ways worldwide, but I also knew - and said - that they'd be more impactful in NYC (and that general area). Have you seen the stock market this morning? The DJIA is down a blistering 2%+, over 750 points, over enhanced Delta Variant fears. This could be predicted and, in fact, was cited in advance.

I guess I'm saying we don't need another set of angles - we already have angles. This aspect is also exactly angular in Indonesia - always a safe bet to call for gigantic earthquake and tsunami there. They cross angles in Pyongyang - wow, I hadn't see that, is there actually going to be a populist uprising, head of state change, and/or world-impacting family dispute (all Moon-Sun-Pluto) in North Korea? Kenya, Ethiopia, and Uganda have it - these are already either destabilized areas or subject to the horrible terrorist assault on their children. It passes through part of Saudi Arabia (but not near the capital) and right through Syria - expect critical, trend-reversing, disruptive news there in the next three months. Perhaps most critically, the aspects are exactly angular in Moscow!!!

Interesting points Jim, thanks.

Jim, If Giza did contain a fixed location to begin a Natural Earth Zodiac, it only seems natural to me we fix 0 degrees Capricorn to the location of Giza for its fixed MC. Can you easily calculate going east or west from Giza, the two fixed MC’s for London?

SteveS wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:59 am Jim, If Giza did contain a fixed location to begin a Natural Earth Zodiac, it only seems natural to me we fix 0 degrees Capricorn to the location of Giza for its fixed MC. Can you easily calculate going east or west from Giza, the two fixed MC’s for London?

I don't know what you mean by the two fixed MC's for London.

If I set up a chart for Giza today for 0 Capricorn on the MC, it is for 11:43:53 PM EET. Relocating this to London gives MC 1°00' Sagittarius, Ascendant 24°40' Aquarius.

This will change slightly over time - I'm not sure how much or how fast, so let's do a test. At the Great Pyramid 500 years ago on July 21, 1521 OS, 0 Capricorn was on MC at 10:38:34 PM EET. Relocating this to London gives MC 1°10' Sagittarius, Asc 14°49' Aquarius. So the MC doesn't change much at all, but the locale's "permanent" Ascendant can change quite radically (for reasons easy to understand).

Jim wrote:

I don't know what you mean by the two fixed MC's for London.

With the few astrologers of past who used Giza to begin a natural Earth Zodiac, there appears to me to be some debate over the east or west direction from Giza. In other words, if one used 0 degree Cap for Giza---then the question arises: Is 10 degree Cap east or west from the 0 degree Cap longitude of Giza? Do you have any guesses for this issue? This is why I asked for the two fixed MC's for London---one going east--one going west from Giza. Does this help better explain my original question, or worse?

SteveS wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:38 am With the few astrologers of past who used Giza to begin a natural Earth Zodiac, there appears to me to be some debate over the east or west direction from Giza.

Astronomically, there is no debate. The only question is, "When 0°00' Capricorn is on the MC at Giza, what's the MC in London?" There's only one answer.

Jim wrote:

If I set up a chart for Giza today for 0 Capricorn on the MC, it is for 11:43:53 PM EET. Relocating this to London gives MC 1°00' Sagittarius, Ascendant 24°40' Aquarius.

Jim, I think you and I are looking at two different methods here for a speculative Earth Zodiac. The way I am looking at a speculative Earth Zodiac is taking a globe of the earth and assigning a zodiac degree to a fixed longitude degree spiraling down from the very top center of the globe passing through major locations (cities) on earth. For example: Take a globe and go to the top center and draw a longitude line straight through Giza continuing to the bottom center of the earth globe, and assign this one longitude line passing through Giza as 0 degree Capricorn applying every location on this one longitude line as 0 degree Capricorn.

If we would do this looking at a globe with a 0 degree Capricorn longitude line passing through Giza, we would note this speculative 0 degree Capricorn line also passing through Durban South Africa. What this would mean for this example for a possible Earth Zodiac is that transiting Pluto would be partile conjunct the globe’s longitude line passing through Giza and Durban. And a day or two before the 2021 Cansolar we saw lawlessness (Pluto) break out on a large scale in Durban. I think this Earth Globe Zodiac with longitude lines passing through other major cities with zodiac degrees assigned is the method other past astrologers were using for a speculative Earth Zodiac. But the major problem as I see it, these other past astrologers speculating on an Earth Zodiac had no ideal of the vast importance of 0 degree Capricorn in the Sidereal Zodiac like a serious present Sidereal Mundane Astrologer.

Forget assigning a MC to Giza, now that I think about it I should not have used MC for Giza in connotation for a possible Earth Zodiac, only a globe longitude line of 0 degree Capricorn passing through Giza. This leads me back to my original question: If a fixed longitude line of 0 degree Capricorn passed through Giza extending all around the globe, then, how would an astrologer know where to assign 10 degree Capricorn with another longitude line passing around the globe? Would an astrologer assign 10 degree Capricorn longitude line around the globe east or west of the longitude line at the 0 degree Capricorn longitude line assigned at Giza for a possible Earth Zodiac? Would there be an easy way for some type of program to take a globe using 0 degree Capricorn longitude line fixed passing through Giza and then assign all the other degrees in the zodiac to all the other places on earth? Going on the theory there is a natural Earth Zodiac as Plato insinuated, then I could possibly see where this Natural Earth Zodiac may be of help particular to the Sidereal Mundane Astrologer.

SteveS wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:21 am Jim, I think you and I are looking at two different methods here for a speculative Earth Zodiac. The way I am looking at a speculative Earth Zodiac is taking a globe of the earth and assigning a zodiac degree to a fixed longitude degree spiraling down from the very top center of the globe passing through major locations (cities) on earth. For example: Take a globe and go to the top center and draw a longitude line straight through Giza continuing to the bottom center of the earth globe, and assign this one longitude line passing through Giza as 0 degree Capricorn applying every location on this one longitude line as 0 degree Capricorn.

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That's what I've done. Every point on the same geographic longitude (at a given moment in time) has the same MC.

The one difference is that I'm not all limiting it to MC-only. All of these geodetic systems (as they're usually called) also have an Ascendant and whole set of cusps because it varies by latitude. But, of course, you can ignore that if you want.

Forget assigning a MC to Giza, now that I think about it I should not have used MC for Giza in connotation for a possible Earth Zodiac, only a globe longitude line of 0 degree Capricorn passing through Giza.

Then how do you want it spread out from there? "Assigning MC" is the only mathematical model that makes sense because geographic longitudes vary around the equator (in RA), not the ecliptic. If all you want is the MC, then it's easy: Set any chart at all for Giza (preferably in the year you want to minimize the effects of precession), rectify it to force 0 Cap 00 on MC, then relocate it to wherever you want and get the new MC.

BTW, "fixed longitude" can't be exactly right due to precession and other math considerations. But it can be essentially unchanging. As you saw in yesterday's example, over 500 years in changed only a few minutes.

I've already answered your final question.

Jim wrote:

I've already answered your final question.

Thanks Jim, as with most of my learning from you I will need to study for better understanding. What comes simple for your mind to understand is difficult for me to understand. No big deal.

I apologize if I was terse. Incredibly stressful stuff piled up at work this morning and I had less than five minutes to get out the door this morning with work communications already flying fast.

In every kind of chart and all models of relating astronomy to the Earth (whether the kind of model you're exploring or simply an ordinary chart), all points on the Earth with the same geographic longitude have the same MC. This is true in longitude and in right ascension. RA, though, is the way to measure it moving around the equator - from one geographic longitude to the next - because RA is what is measured along the equator.

This will not be truly permanent because RA is a tropical coordinate and subject to precession. But the MC for different locations will only very small amounts across a few centuries. Therefore, you can create one sample Giza chart and keep reusing it in your investigation.

If all you want is a given MC for each possible longitude on Earth, the method is simple: Calculate one chart and then relocate it. For example - for the model you want to test - do these steps: Calculate any chart at all for the coordinates of the Great Pyramid 29N58'45", 31E08'03". (For example, just do one for today, for any time of day at all, for those coordinates.) Click the Rectify button and put 0 Cp in the Midheaven field. This will create a chart that has 0°00'00" for the longitude of the Great Pyramid 31°08'03" E. Save this chart. When you want to investigate a city, just relocate this chart to that city and look at the MC, e.g., Washington gives 14°33' Virgo, London gives 1°00' Sagittarius, etc.

Which direction the zodiac goes around the world seems obvious. In fact, there is no question unless you want to arbitrarily make up that it flows from Giza in a direction opposite every other example in nature. Ecliptical longitude decreases as you go west, increases as you go east. This is automatically taken care of by the "calculate one chart and then relocate it" approach.

Jim wrote:

I apologize if I was terse.

No apologies necessary Jim, my wrong worded line of questions gave you good reason to be terse.