Page 1 of 1
Helena Petrovna Blavatsky
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:13 pm
by Jim Eshelman
The notorious and amazing Madame Blavatsky was born August 12, 1831 in Ekaterinoslav, Russia. The time has been in dispute, but not in a "dirty data (DD)" sense. The Rodden data base at Astro.com picks 2:17 AM. Based on the information they give, though, I think it should be 4:08 AM. The whole purpose of this post is to sort this out in writing.
Most interestingly, of all the possible times discussed under Sources on Astro.com, the time they pick - 2:17 AM - isn't given by any of them.
Most of the alleged times boil down to "someone's good idea" of when she was born. I suggest we throw those out from the start, especially because there are a couple of other reports that are based on actual information. Here's what we're told:
Wemyss quoted Sepharial that HPB said she was born between midnight and sunrise. That's a wide period and might mean she really didn't know.
But Alan Leo, who was deep in Theosophical circles, said a colleague in New York said HPB (who was visiting NY at the time) said she was born 40 minutes before sunrise. Astro.com renders that as 4:38 AM, but I calculate sunrise at Ekaterinoslav that day as 4:48 AM LMT. Therefore, 40 minutes earlier was 4:08 AM.
Other than these two entries, everything else is someone's rectification or raw speculation (e.g., Rudhyar thought she should have Sirius rising, Rodden thought she should have Tropical Gemini rising, etc.).
I'm surprised Blavatsky never published this herself. She could at least have given us a nice fake mythological perfect time <vbg>.
Limiting ourselves to these two entries that actually profess to be based on personal accounts, the weaknesses are that they are both third hand (but credible, if you trust HPB in the first place). Also, they agree with each other, although one suggests she didn't know it within about 5 hours, and the other professes to have it to the minute. (We don't know when these were transmitted. After the first question, she could have looked into it so she had an answer next time she was asked.)
If we believe Blavatsky, then the time 40 minutes before sunrise is A-rated data. If we take the position that we don't know if we should believe her, then it deserves the C rating Astro.com gave it.
Based on actual information available, then, and without any attempt to verify or rectify, I submit that 4:08 AM LMT is the "official" birth time from which astrologers should work. It's a most interesting chart, including factors (like a 0°00' Moon-Pluto opposition) that couldn't have been known during her life, fit her very well, etc.
The chart has been of great interest to astrologers over the decades, so I thought I should remark on it. Take a look if you're interested.
Re: Helena Petrovna Blavatsky
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:38 am
by Veronica
I just read an article that said that HPB was the reincarnation of Mary Mother of Christ.
I see nothing in HPB chart that rings of the words, titles and attributes that are Ascribed to Mary.
I see many other highly unusual and beneficial things, but nothing to back up the claim that she was/is the reincarnation of Mary. The aspects are not there for that current.
Re: Helena Petrovna Blavatsky
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:08 am
by Jim Eshelman
Re: Helena Petrovna Blavatsky
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:08 am
by mikestar13
If reincarnation is even a fact (when I doubt), there is no known way to read it from a chart, certain Tropicalist literature notwithstanding.
Re: Helena Petrovna Blavatsky
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:12 pm
by FlorencedeZ.
mikestar13 wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:08 am
If reincarnation is even a fact (when I doubt), there is no known way to read it from a chart, certain Tropicalist literature notwithstanding.
You may like to compare the charts of Anne Frank and Barbra Karlen. Years ago when I joined the forum there was a topic about Barbra finishing off the life of Anne and it blew my mind.
One would not be able to see this in a Tropical chart imo.
Re: Helena Petrovna Blavatsky
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:40 pm
by Jim Eshelman
FlorencedeZ. wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:12 pm
mikestar13 wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:08 am
If reincarnation is even a fact (when I doubt), there is no known way to read it from a chart, certain Tropicalist literature notwithstanding.
You may like to compare the charts of Anne Frank and Barbra Karlen. Years ago when I joined the forum there was a topic about Barbra finishing off the life of Anne and it blew my mind.
One would not be able to see this in a Tropical chart imo.
Anne Frank: June 12, 1929, 7:30 AM CET, Frankfurt-am-Main, Germany
Barbro Karlen: May 24, 1954, 7:20 AM CET, Gottenburg, Sweden
Hers is, indeed, a fascinating, compelling story. The similarities of the charts is impressive as well, though the story itself is the compelling part.
I do accept reincarnation as a fundamental reality in the same sense I accept that sunlight refracted through air molecules filters all non-blue light. (That's a personal conclusion, of course.) However, I've always had serious trouble with reading this from the horoscope. Here are three reasons:
1. Under the theories of reincarnation, sometimes a person is newly born to complete work left unfinished and continue working on particular kinds of development and expression (suggesting a similar chart); sometimes, lessons have been learned and tasks completed, and one moves on to something entirely different; sometimes for the lessons of past behaviors to be clear, one needs to adopt the opposite point of view, suggesting a complementary chart type; and usually it's a mix of all the above, in a quite different mix and match than charts had before.
1B. Or, more simply: With all the possibilities in the universe, it seems a shame to waste an incarnation on the same thing one did last time, when one can have a whole new mix.
2. If two people
do have remarkably similar horoscopes, that alone is a reason they would have similar behaviors, similar thought processes, and be interested in similar topics (even to the point - by synastry - that the later person is drawn to the history of the earlier person). You don't need reincarnation to explain their similarities.
3. If you give any credence to the Edgar Cayce readings, there were rarely the slightest similarities between the horoscopes of reincarnation examples he gave (when that information was given).
Re: Helena Petrovna Blavatsky
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:46 pm
by Jim Eshelman
I ran Blavatsky's chart through Mike's program. Here it is as an example. In particular, the tables at the bottom are phenomenally useful, making clear things one might have missed otherwise. (For example, the high angularity score for Uranus on Dsc is obvious enough, but it also catches Neptune square MC to propel Uranus + Neptune as the obviously most angular planets, plus the mundane Moon-Neptune square.)
The closest aspects are astonishing the way they're laid out. Scroll down on the following to see.
Code: Select all
+-------------00Ta30-----------01Ar08-----------08Pi22--------------+
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | |Pl 18Pi07 19°38'| |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
09Ge48-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------16Aq01
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | Blavatsky, Helena Petrovna | |
| | | |
| Ep 27Ge44 | Natal | |
| | | |
| | 12 Aug 1831 04:08:00 LMT | |
| | | |
| | Ekaterinoslav, Russia | |
| | | |
| | 48N27'00" 034E59'00" |Ju 24Cp51 05°49'|
| | | |
| | UT 01:48:04 |Ur 19Cp54 01°18'|
17Cn59-----------+ +-----------17Cp59
| | RAMC 21°46'14" | |
| | | |
| | OE 23°27'33" | |
|Su 26Cn11 07°48'| | |
| | SVP 07Pi36'49" | |
| | | |
| | Sidereal Zodiac | |
| | | |
| | Campanus Houses |Ne 00Cp32 15°44'|
| | | |
| | | |
|Sa 10Le37 22°40'| | |
|Ma 10Le30 22°46'| | |
| | | |
| | | |
16Le01-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------09Sg48
|Me 16Le59 00°59'| | | |
| |Ve 11Vi14 03°46'| | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| |Mo 18Vi07 14°27'| | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | |Er 29Cp20 20°30'|
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | Vx 06Sg50 |
| | | | |
+-------------08Vi22-----------01Li08-----------00Sc30--------------+
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pl Longitude Lat Speed RA Decl Azi Alt PVL Ground
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo 18Vi06'49" 03N59 +12°44' 191°13' 00S30 194°06' -41°11' 74°27' - 6%
Su 26Cn10'41" 00N00 + 0°58' 141°00' 15N17 237°56' - 6°37' 7°48' + 68% F
Me 16Le58'55" 00N32 + 1°34' 161°09' 08N34 224°16' -22°44' 30°59' - 21%
Ve 11Vi13'39" 01S58 + 0°51' 182°32' 03S15 206°14' -41°53' 63°46' - 92% B
Ma 10Le30'14" 01N05 + 0°38' 155°14' 11N27 228°11' -17°22' 22°46' + 8%
Ju 24Cp50'33" 01S02 - 0°08' 320°00' 16S40 57°54' + 4°56' 185°49' + 82% F
Sa 10Le36'33" 01N31 + 0°07' 155°30' 11N50 227°45' -17°11' 22°40' + 8%
Ur 19Cp53'53" 00S42 - 0°02' 314°57' 17S48 61°05' + 1°08' 181°18' + 99% F
Ne 00Cp32'14" 00N31 - 0°01' 294°40' 21S00 73°41' -13°43' 165°44' + 95% F
Pl 18Pi07'23" 17S12 - 0°01' 16°28' 11S39 5°59' +29°43' 259°38' + 47%
Er 29Cp20'21" 43S03 - 0°01' 345°57' 53S45 21°10' -16°35' 140°30' - 88% B
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class 1 Aspects Class 2 Aspects Class 3 Aspects
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo tr Ur 01°47' 94% Mo co Ve 06°53' 50% Mo tr Ju 06°44' 18%
Mo sq Ne 01°17' 97% M Su op Ur 06°17' 58% Ju sx Pl 06°43' 18%
Mo op Pl 00°01' 100% Su op Er 03°10' 89% Ur co Er 09°26' 10%
Su oc Ve 00°03' 100% Me co Ma 06°29' 56%
Su op Ju 01°20' 98% Me co Sa 06°22' 57%
Ma co Sa 00°06' 100% Me oc Ne 01°27' 75%
Ur sx Pl 01°47' 94% Ve oc Ju 01°23' 77%
Ve op Pl 06°54' 50%
Ju co Ur 04°57' 74%
Ju co Er 04°30' 78%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Helena Petrovna Blavatsky
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:18 am
by Veronica
I had a weird dream the other morning, in which I was camping with my ol cub scout pack of little boys. we were going to earn a new patch by learning the constellations. I would point out the stars and ask them what they thought it looked like, and then talk about the wonderful gifts people born under that constellation would have.
and then we got to cancer, and I pointed out the stars that make it, and asked my group of little men what they thought it looked like.
After this dream, I looked up pictures of the star cluster called Cancer and showed my daughter and told her the names of some infamous people born and asked her what she thought.....She blushed, and giggled and almost said it outloud.
in my dream, the boys were about to blurt out what they saw, but I knew one little boy in my group who was the sweetest kindest most loving little man, who would be completely ruined if he believed that he was a Cigar, that he would never get over the emotional embarrassment and cultural projections and that it would make him put on a helmet and sword and become the worst of the worst.
so I stopped the boys before they blurted it out, and told them that Cancer is a little crab, hard on the outside but the nicest softest most loving on the inside.
HPB has my respects for she was a Cancer, she was a cigar, and mostly likely one of the biggest cigars of her time.
I personally feel that Mary was still a child when she bore Jesus and didnt have any knowledge or preference for or against cigars until she was forced to.
