Extroversion/Introversion Reconsidered

[mikestar13]

I've always taken extroversion/introversion to be best indicated by foreground/background, primarily by the luminaries, somewhat by Mercury, Venus, and Mars, slightly by the total number of foreground planets vs. background planets. My own chart is a case in point: with Moon, Sun, Mercury, and Venus all background and only Mars foreground, I am quite introverted. Also, I noticed I am never so outgoing as when I am fighting (foreground Mars) for love and justice (sextile background Sun-Venus) . The short form MBTI test in Please Understand Me concurs. On the 20 extroversion/introversion question, I choose the introverted answer 18 times on average (I've taken the test several times and result vary slight according to my mood-- on a particularly intense "I have had enough of people" day, I will reliably score 20/20, on the most outgoing, sociable day of my life, I'd still score about 16/20 introverted).

A limiting factor of both testing and astrology on this topic: American society values extroversion and actively devalues introversion. Indeed, one alleged mental health professional in a social setting stated that introversion is a pathology. She was by her behavior an extreme extrovert, and made her statement immediately after I self described as an introvert--and offered me referrals to free or low cost mental health care. (BTW, at that point, I cordially invited her to have intercourse with herself--not in those exact words--the only time in my life I have ever been even tempted to say that to a woman.)

Myers-Briggs report 75% of American test subjects test varying degrees of extroverted and only 25% varying degrees of introverted. My suspicion on philosophical and astrological grounds is the natural human split is 50-50 (with more evenly divided cases more common than extreme cases either direction), but that American society has 50% extroverts, 25% introverts, and 25% introverts who have been oppressed by extroverts to the point they have learned how to convincingly fake being extroverts, fairly often even to themselves. Myers-Briggs' rather limited experience testing non-Americans and particularly non-Westerners strongly suggest different percentages in different societies.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

My suspicion on philosophical and astrological grounds is the natural human split is 50-50 (with more evenly divided cases more common than extreme cases either direction), but that American society has 50% extroverts, 25% introverts, and 25% introverts who have been oppressed by extroverts to the point they have learned how to convincingly fake being extroverts, fairly often even to themselves.

I think you're right. I think in our early culture, both extroverts and introverts were
useful to "the tribe" just like earlybirds and nightowls were equally useful. (It's safer around predators to have some people asleep and others awake at different times.) But somehow things got skewed and it became a moral failing to be awake late at night and asleep after dawn. "Early to bed and early to rise..." "The only good sleep is before midnight." and so on.
Basically, humans just like to bully each other over nothings.

[mikestar13]

JSAD, I have noted that just as you have with early birds and night owls: most night owls may be glad they aren't early birds but aren't bothered by the existence of early birds (unless wakened by them ), while a fair number (not all) of early birds think night owls are pathological.

[mikestar13]

...
Basically, humans just like to bully each other over nothings.

I nominate this for the Truer Words Were Never Written Award for 2021.

[Jim Eshelman]

I've always taken extroversion/introversion to be best indicated by foreground/background, primarily by the luminaries, somewhat by Mercury, Venus, and Mars, slightly by the total number of foreground planets vs. background planets.

Fair enough, since you've named most of what's important in a chart

My own chart is a case in point: with Moon, Sun, Mercury, and Venus all background and only Mars foreground, I am quite introverted.

I've never been fully satisfied with assessing this (made more complicated by different definitions of I/E). I've sometimes thought, though, that there is room for separated I vs. E interpretations of each luminary sign; then again, that's only one dimension of personality.

In any case, looking at your chart... It's easy to find examples of both introverted and extraverted Piscians. Your three strongest planets, though, are Mars (rising), Venus (partile conjunct your Sun), and Mercury (partile conjunct your Moon). Venus and Mars are normally extraverted planets. Mercury can sometimes be introverted in the cerebrotonia sense (staying in one's head). I'm not clear what is really introverted in your chart unless I go all housy on us and credit the 12H Moon (plus background Sun).

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I'm introverted. I stay home and don't go out unless it can't be avoided. I go to the vet, the grocery, my doctor, dentist, and pharmacy, although now the pharmacy is in the grocery so that's one less place i have to go. Oh, and gas station once in awhile.

I know my neighbors and we are... friendly... I guess. But they've never been in my house nor I in theirs. Now there's Uber, I don't actually need friends because I can't drive after procedures. (Most medical offices won't let you go home in a cab, but Ubers are unmarked. )

I worry about dying and leaving the cat without food. He has water but it could be months.

I don't hate people. I just have other things to do.

I have a foreground Leo sun, opposing angular Jupiter. Yes, Pisces moon, I don't think that's enough to explain things.

What I think does is my Venus conj Pluto. Especially here, where it's angular.

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, on that last point, JSAD, I was already thinking of asking you: Is this primarily since you've moved to your current location, or was it that way at birthplace (and, generally, places where you had Sun and Jupiter angular)?

[mikestar13]

Haven't done enough study of the topic and my idea is no doubt oversimplified, but less so than something like hemispheric emphasis. I am using I/E in the Meyers/Briggs sense, which is derived from Jung (probably by simplification). For me the single most reliable indicator is the reaction to parties: an extrovert is energized by a party is ready for another party; an introvert is exhausted by a party and wants to go to bed (extreme examples appropriate to extreme cases but most lean one way or the other). For E's a good party has lots of action (verbal or physical or both) a bad party is more quiet. An E is energized by a "bad" party but more so by a "good" party, for I's the reverse is true: all parties exhaust us, but the quiet ones far less so. Now for "party" substitute any group social interaction. Now in one-on-one situations I's and E's are much more similar and I's may even have an edge on E's in terms of being energized by them.

Now this doesn't mean I's can't function well in group settings and I should know--I have preached the gospel to as many as 50 people at once, some of whom were actively hostile to what I was preaching and/or me preaching rather than a professionally trained pastor. It tore me up inside, but I did it for about six months between when my SNF's in house church lost It's 90 something retired professional pastor to dementia until a new (younger) retired professional was hired, and by most accounts I did well. I have compared notes with professional pastors, the I's concur with my experience, and the E's contradict it.

[mikestar13]

My current relationship with Terry as contrasted to my former relationship with Sue is a case in point. Terry "gets me" in a way Sue never could. Terry is more introverted than I am--Sue is an extrovert. Sue's natural bent going out at least 28 evenings in 30, of course considerably mitigated by parenthood and later by economic hardship.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Yes, on that last point, JSAD, I was already thinking of asking you: Is this primarily since you've moved to your current location, or was it that way at birthplace (and, generally, places where you had Sun and Jupiter angular)?

I've always been pretty much the same, but I've been able to arrange things more to suit my preferences where Venus-Pluto is angular. Where I have Sun-Jupiter angular, I was a member of a "prominent" family that demanded attendance on, for instance, Christmas evening dinner, and if you weren't there, someone would come find you and be "very disappointed." I'm also a member of a less formal family that had big family dinners and if you weren't there a group would come find you and sometimes you'd end up with the party at your house and people wouldn't go home.

My life improved considerably after I got a car and could leave when I was just done.

[mikestar13]

I would qualify my remark above that I's may do better with one on one than E's do: the other person needs to be meaningful to the I: significant other, friend, public figure they had always admired... One on one with the random stranger drains I's almost as much as group interaction.