Sun in Sagittarius

[James Condor]

Jan 9 1984 11:28 a Harvey Illinois , Valparaiso Indiana (current)

As a sun in Sagittarius, my father too,
I’ve had an issue seeing myself as a forum states-

I can vaguely see the “higher and higher” motif,
What exactly is this- idk
And the tribe? Nah- no tribe in me, besides human being tribe

I’m offended still at the interpretation!
Either I’m not a typical Sag or I just don’t see it as obviously as the forum states

There is so much more to me. I am very sexual and struggle with Eros vs Morality much like a sun in Pisces
However, I am very scientific, impatient, contrary, objective, hungry. Only my soul (and the law) saves me from completely over extending myself

[SteveS]

James wrote:

There is so much more to me. I am very sexual and struggle with Eros vs Morality much like a sun in Pisces.

Indeed! It is clear to me from your direct midpoints structures with your Natal Venus and Natal conjunction of Venus-Uranus-- WHY you are very sexual. I think we have discussed this before and I think I asked you to get the book “Combinations of Stellar Influences” (COSI) in order to see/why for yourself. Did you get COSI?
James wrote:

However, I am very scientific, impatient, contrary, objective, hungry. Only my soul (and the law) saves me from completely over extending myself.

Again, I see most of these with your direct midpoints combined with your Mars-Pluto conjunction in your Natal.

[Jim Eshelman]

I’m offended still at the interpretation!

I hope it's obvious that no offense was intended. (I do have to note that this was a pretty blatant Sagittarius reaction and way of saying it, though )

I can vaguely see the “higher and higher” motif... And the tribe? Nah- no tribe in me, besides human being tribe... There is so much more to me. I am very sexual and struggle with Eros vs Morality much like a sun in Pisces... I am very scientific, impatient, contrary, objective, hungry. Only my soul (and the law) saves me from completely over extending myself.

Let's take these traits as a starting point for digging further. It's clear that you don't feel seen or correctly known, so let's look at that.

First - since you brought up Pisces traits - are you also considering the input of your Pisces Moon as well? Not all Sun- sign and Moon traits match, but the Moon in Pisces interpretation currently on the site flatly says, "Eros and morality are intimately tethered, the 'two fishes' of the Piscian soul enmeshed by temptation," etc. If you haven't read the Pisces Moon interpretation in the last year (I think that might be when I finished my top to bottom rewrite), you might want to take a new look: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34#p153

I'll continue this in the next post.

[Jim Eshelman]

As a basis for digging into your chart, here is a printout from Mike's TMSA. The top section includes various technical details of which the most interesting are the planet positions at the left and the planet angularity (PVL and %) at the right. The second section includes the aspects, sorted into close, moderate, and wide. The third section (the Cosmic State report) gives a way to see all the factors affecting a given planet for deep dives on that planet:

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
Mo  5Pi35'38"  5S 2 +11°55'   2° 6'  4S34 100°33' + 4°54' 355° 1'  93% A 
Su 24Sg 7'53"  0S 0 + 1° 1' 290°11' 22S 9 172°23' +25°53' 285°17'  67%   
Me  5Sg59'48"  3N 7 -11'50" 270°33' 20S20 192°55' +27° 2' 246°21'  11%   
Ve 15Sc55'32"  1N54 + 1°13' 249° 7' 20S 8 213°51' +20°49' 214°20'  34%   
Ma  4Li45'25"  1N40 +31' 9" 207°49'  9S40 252°47' + 4°34' 184°46'  94% D 
Ju  3Sg20'20"  0N19 +13'13" 267°40' 23S 7 195°13' +23°47' 239°13'   0%   
Sa 20Li 7' 0"  2N18 + 4'24" 222°52' 14S 2 239° 1' +11°41' 193°33'  69%   
Ur 17Sc 5'53"  0N 3 + 3' 8" 250° 5' 22S 8 212° 4' +19°26' 213°37'  35%   
Ne  5Sg 9'20"  1N10 + 2'10" 269°38' 22S17 193°26' +24°57' 243°29'   3%   
Pl  7Li25'44" 16N47 + 0'55" 215°30'  3N38 257°15' +19°16' 199°43'  59%   
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects         Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
Mo sq Me  0°24'100%      Su sq Pl  4°27' 63% M     Mo op Ma  9°45'  4% M
Mo sq Ju  2°15' 90%      Ju oc Sa  1°47' 63%       Ma co Sa  8°47' 21% M
Mo oc Sa  0°29' 97%      Ju sx Pl  4° 5' 68%       Ma oc Ur  2°40' 20%  
Mo sq Ne  0°26'100%      Sa co Pl  6°10' 60% M                          
Su sq Sa  1°43' 94% M                                                   
Me sx Ma  1°14' 97%                                                     
Me co Ju  2°39' 92%                                                     
Me oc Sa  0°53' 91%                                                     
Me co Ne  0°50' 99%                                                     
Me sx Pl  1°26' 96%                                                     
Ve co Ur  0°43' 99% M                                                   
Ma sx Ju  1°25' 96%                                                     
Ma sx Ne  0°24'100%                                                     
Ma co Pl  2°40' 92%                                                     
Ju co Ne  1°49' 96%                                                     
Sa oc Ne  0° 2'100%                                                     
Ne sx Pl  2°16' 90%                                                     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Cosmic State                              
Mo Pi  F | sq Me  0°24'    sq Ne  0°26'    oc Sa  0°29'    sq Ju  2°15'    
         | op Ma  9°45'M   
Su Sg    | sq Sa  1°43'M   sq Pl  4°27'M   
Me Sg- B | Mo Pi- Su Sg-
         | sq Mo  0°24'    co Ne  0°50'    sx Ma  1°14'    sx Pl  1°26'    
         | co Ju  2°39'    oc Sa  0°53'    
Ve Sc-   | Mo Pi+
         | co Ur  0°43'M   
Ma Li  F | sx Ne  0°24'    sx Me  1°14'    sx Ju  1°25'    co Pl  2°40'    
         | co Sa  8°47'M   oc Ur  2°40'    op Mo  9°45'M   
Ju Sg+ B | Su Sg+
         | sx Ma  1°25'    co Ne  1°49'    co Me  2°39'    sq Mo  2°15'    
         | sx Pl  4° 5'    oc Sa  1°47'    
Sa Li+   | oc Ne  0° 2'    oc Mo  0°29'    sq Su  1°43'M   oc Me  0°53'    
         | oc Ju  1°47'    co Pl  6°10'M   co Ma  8°47'M   
Ur Sc    | co Ve  0°43'M   oc Ma  2°40'    
Ne Sg  B | Mo Pi+
         | oc Sa  0° 2'    sx Ma  0°24'    sq Mo  0°26'    co Me  0°50'    
         | co Ju  1°49'    sx Pl  2°16'    
Pl Li-   | sx Me  1°26'    co Ma  2°40'    sx Ne  2°16'    sx Ju  4° 5'    
         | sq Su  4°27'M   co Sa  6°10'M   
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since Steve brought up your midpoints, here is a separate midpoint report from TMSA including all direct midpoints within 1°, in case you want to dig through these.

Code: Select all

Mo Pi    |    Su/Ur  1'd      Me/Ne  1'd      Su/Ve 34'd      Me/Ju 56'd   
Me Sg-   |    Su/Ur 23'd      Su/Ve 58'd   
Ve Sc-   |    Su/Pl  9'd   
Sa Li+   |    Mo/Ne 15'd      Mo/Ju 39'd      Mo/Me 41'd   
Ne Sg    |    Su/Ve  8'd      Su/Ur 28'd      Me/Ju 29'd   
As Pi    |    Mo/Sa  7'd   
Mc Sg    |    Mo/As 36'd   
Angle    |    Mo/Ma  6'M

[Jim Eshelman]

I can vaguely see the “higher and higher” motif... And the tribe? Nah- no tribe in me, besides human being tribe... There is so much more to me. I am very sexual and struggle with Eros vs Morality much like a sun in Pisces... I am very scientific, impatient, contrary, objective, hungry. Only my soul (and the law) saves me from completely over extending myself.

First, we need to summarize the strongest factors in your chart: strongest sign themes, strongest planets in terms of angularity, and strongest aspects.

Your strongest sign placements are Sun in Sagittarius, Moon in Pisces, and Mars in Libra. I would expect the Sagittarian themes to be strongest since you have four planets in Sagittarius. I wonder if you have considered Moon in Pisces sufficiently and whether you have considered Mars in Libra at all - it touches quite close to some of the points you raised.
Sun in Sagittarius: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p163
Moon in Pisces: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34#p153
Mars in Libra: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32#p121

From angularity, you have two foreground planets. They are in the "moderately angular" range (about 3-7° from the angles) which means they are strongly expressive but wouldn't necessarily contradict or overwhelm other very strong factors:
Mars 4°46' above Descendant https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=38#p186
Moon 4°59' above Ascendant https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=38#p183
These are quite different planets, though both are strongly emotional with strong (sexual other) passions and hungers driving them (of quite different sorts). - Remember, at this point we're just gathering the main factors to get them all out on the table.

Aspects are the final main group. You have a LOT of aspects (17 in the "close" category), so it takes a bit of art to sort them out. Unquestionably, your strongest ones include your triple Mercury-Jupiter-Neptune cluster square Moon. This is even more interesting because it involves your Sun sign and Moon sign rulers (planets we'd expect already to be strong themes) plus Mercury, the planet least like Sagittarius and Pisces normally. (I pause to make a note that you will be much more Mercurial than the typical Sagittarius-Pisces. - When working out the finer points of the chart, it will be important that Mars closely sextiles Mercury-Jupiter-Neptune (with a good dose of Saturn and Pluto in the mix), but for now let's just focus on the importance of the three planets and their squares to Moon.

You have two other really important close aspects: Venus conjoins Uranus and your foreground Mars conjoins Pluto. There is also a mundane Sun-Saturn square within 2°.

DRAWING IT TOGETHER. This is a lot of stuff! You have a very complicated chart and a diverse personality (being a double-Spoke with mutable planets emphasized by Moon), but this can be sifted down to a manageable number of MOST IMPORTANT factors.

I would consider MOST IMPORTANT in these categories to be the Sagittarius-Pisces luminaries plus Mars in Libra; Moon and Mars angular; and the aspect clusters of Moon square Mercury-Jupiter-Neptune, Venus conjunct Uranus, Mars conjunct Pluto, and Sun square Saturn. I don't think we can get a reasonably complete view of who you are - who you were born to be and have grown up to be - without this many factors. We would expect that at least these strongest factors would have a strong voice in your nature and life.

I think all the Sagittarius traits you despise or find insulting are in you - unowned core values. But with that Venus-Uranus and Mars-Pluto, you're going to kick hard against social convention and other people's expectations of your "right behavior." Mars in Libra adds to that Venus-Uranus and Mars-Pluto even stronger surges of being socially anomalous - I think I word-smithed it pretty well in the Mars in Libra interpretation. We'd already expect strong emotional passions from Moon in Pisces, but the angular Moon and Mars make these surge even more strongly, outside the boundaries that Sagittarius usually considers "well behaved." And mentally, philosophically, conceptually, feeding that Sagittarius-Pisces pairs with Moon square both Jupiter and Neptune - but also square Mercury closest of all, the polar opposite planet! - with Jupiter and Neptune being simultaneously the most important expressions of your Sun and Moon signs, dynamically connected to the rising Moon, and yet the very weakest by angularity in the chart, the needs that are hardest to meet, the psychological dynamics that are hardest to externalize (being exactly on a cadent cusp) - creates much complexity that you and your astrologer would need to explore together to see just what right balance you had picked in the course of growing up.

In simple terms, you are indeed a Sagittarian-Pisces AND likely to kick and squirm and bang against the whole idea of conventional social norms (Venus-Uranus, Mars-Pluto), with lots of surging passion energies and hungers (and probably lots of ambivalence about them), and a very active mind, curious, inquiring, philosophical, even adventurous. I might have called it academic while wanting to knock down some walls of academia. I think you can see the Mars, Mars-Pluto, and Venus-Uranus fitting the impatience, contrariness, etc. that you mentioned.

James, does this mix of factors - the signs, the angular Moon and Mars, the Moon-Mercury-Jupiter-Pluto, Venus-Uranus, and Mars-Pluto - describe you well? Some charts boil down to a couple of overriding themes, sometimes a single planet idea, but not yours - you are a stew of multiple strong, surging, often contradictory themes that, frankly, I usually find makes for the most interesting kind of people. But I'm not saying it's so wide that "anything goes, everything fits" - I've cited specific categories of these traits.

On balance, I now wonder if you think Sagittarius-Pisces, Mars in Libra, Moon and Mars angular, Moon square Mercury-Jupiter-Neptune, Venus-Uranus, and Mars-Pluto paint an accurate, reasonably complete portrait of you, zeroing in on the things that are most important to you.

[James Condor]

I thank you again. I really do see astrology at work.

I do not mean to repeat myself.
I know I’ve asked Jim and the forum about my natal chart many times. I know I repeat the back and forth between belief/no belief in a practical sense.
Sometimes I find astrology evidently useful, and other times I’m fine ignoring astrology completely. I can easily contradict everything.

The ‘higher and higher’ saggy interpretation may come from the basic Sag spoke, movement of expanding ideas. Never quite pinning down interpretation of forms specifically, but understanding the entire picture, and how it can be used. I do think Sag reinforces a philosophical realm. And philosophy is actually a real tool of constructing criticism as to pin down, yet it’s like science, never completed, but naturally improved discoveries each time forward.

I ultimately think life is paradoxical. I just have always seen paradox. Absurdism. Yet I know I, and we, have a soul that is connected to everything