Relocation to another City

[FlorencedeZ.]

Hi Jim,
A good friend of mine who lives in Zutphen, Netherlands for a long time is thinking of moving to Rotterdam.
In her relocated chart I see that Uranus, Saturn and Neptune will straddle the Midheaven almost exact.
I am a bit weary of the Saturn and Neptune in Rotterdam, would you agree? Or can this be a hugely creative place to live for her you think?

Date of birth: 28 feb 1989 10:30AM Moscow, Russia

regards, Flo

[Arena]

If it was just Uranus and Neptune, with no malefic aspect to Neptune, then that can be good... but as soon as you see Neptune with Saturn it can be extremely depressive. Are you in any position to point this out to your friend and perhaps point out alternative benefic/positive astro influences elsewhere in a curiously constructive manner?

[FlorencedeZ.]

Thank you Arena for your comment.
It is possible but I need to do this in a constructive way as her boyfriend is very much against me speaking about astrological factors.
Your reply is what I guessed all along, she may be far better off in Zutphen.
Regards, Flo

[Jim Eshelman]

Hi, Flo. Just from your email (having not looked at the charts yet, I agree with Arena's assessment. Uranus-Neptune might be weird and awesome (and sometimes weird and terrible), but Saturn-Neptune is one of the hardest influences.

But let's take a look at the charts.

Your friend is an Aquarius-Scorpio (Mars in Aries) born in Moscow. The first thing to say is that, if I had this chart, I'd be very glad to be away from Moscow right now or, more likely, I'd be dead by now. Mars, Pluto, and Uranus are the strongest planets (from the luminary signs, Pluto closely angular, and the close mundane opposition of Mars to the Scorpio Moon. Your friend sounds amazing and also likely prone to risks and tearing down restricting walls. - Just to make it even a little more interesting, Pluto isn't the most angular planet because that trickster Eris is 1° above Ascendant.

That's the natal.

Current residence is Zutphen. There are no close angularities. A little Uranus, a whisper of Sun (which is weakest planet in the natal). The mundane Moon-Mars opposition is even closer than for Moscow.

Moving to Rotterdam gives the following angularities:

Uranus on MC 0°00'
Neptune on Z 0°27'
Saturn on Z 0°37'

That Uranus on MC is stunning! For an Aquarian with the rest of the natal as it is, the idea of moving to where Uranus is 0°00' from Midheaven would seem like heaven! But that Saturn-Neptune is dark, suggesting physical and psychological insecurities and worse.

Normally, I'd advise (hands down, no need to rethink it) just stay away from a Saturn-Neptune like this. I can at least understand the probable unconscious draw of the move, though: Your friend needs psychological room as large as the universe in which to live and Zutphen - just going by the natal chart located there - seems intolerably boring. Is this the condition of your friend's life? Is it indeed narrow and intolerably boring there?

Rotterdam would seem to blow open possibilities and yet have elements of tragedy. Mars in Aries often feels like it is (eyes wide open) driving a car as fast as it can go toward a brick wall just to see if the car will "win," and this trend isn't less with a Scorpio Moon partile opposite Mars and all the rest. Relying on the relocated charts only, your friend needs to break free and live a more thriving moment-to-moment adventure, and is willing to take risks to do it.

There is one thing I can think of that might make this positive (or at least positive looking back, when the final lines of your friend's life story are written): Is this person, perchance, involved in the arts? A painter or deeply involved in music? Saturn-Neptune is one of the single most creative, artistic combinations possible. I do think sometimes that this includes the drama of the "suffering artist" stereotype, but the bottom line is that they are often extraordinary creators in art or music. It may still be tragic (there is a bit of Van Gogh in this chart, by feel - oh, and by the Scorpio Moon!), but those who are in the arts often are NOT tragic (other than the fact that everyone's lifer story ends with the hero dying).

[Jim Eshelman]

These notes on natal Saturn-Neptune aspects (which your friend has from birth) may help understand possibilities:

SUMMARY: Material vs. immaterial, tenuous boundaries, renunciation, asylum

• Bridges the practical and material with the abstract and immaterial. (Most bridge it well.)
• Can render a vision concrete and believable, make something solid from an idea: Creativity realized, plans executed, visual and music artists, counselors, problem solvers, “handymen.”
• Frequently indifferent to material security.
• Great devotion and loyalty. (Possible intrigue, deceit, suspicion, secrets, or betrayal.)
• Chronic (sometimes disabling) physical or psychological afflictions (can include dark, troubled mental states, depression, disappointment, distrust, struggling with demons).
• Many withdraw into seclusion, asylum, sanctuary, refuge, or exile (extreme cases, institutions or prison; but also many popes and saints). – Others may find haven in a personal reality womb.

However, when first moving to a new area, our own planets on angles act more like transits (until we normalize and adapt to them). The concern, then (why you're worried and I'm leaning to keep her away) is that it would initially work out more like this:

Worry, anxiety, fear, dread, grief, loss, suspicion, jealousy (scandal): fears the worst about health and circumstances. Drained physical and psychological vitality with consequent emotional turbulence and intensified, exaggerated negativity; distracted mind, wounded health (mental, emotional, or physical weakening). Toxic, insidious, paralyzing. Removal, resignation, abdication, exile, deportation, firing, sacrifice, renunciation.

Scanning my almost 1,000 sample charts for people with close Saturn-Neptune hard aspects whose artistic creativity flourished, I find (among others): Bob Marley, Brenda Lee, Carmen Electra, Chaka Khan, Cher, Christina Aguilera, Chuck Berry, Conan O'Brien, George Martin, H.P. Lovecraft, Hans Christian Anderson, Jules Verne, Julie Taymor, Lena Horne, Lenny Bruce, Marilyn Monroe, Mary Tyler Moore, Miles Davis, Noel Tyl, Oscar Wilde, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Roberta Flack, Washington Irving, William Blake, and tons more - I've mostly skipped listing actors, and didn't list everyone in music. (Look at that group of fiction writers!)

[FlorencedeZ.]

Normally, I'd advise (hands down, no need to rethink it) just stay away from a Saturn-Neptune like this. I can at least understand the probable unconscious draw of the move, though: Your friend needs psychological room as large as the universe in which to live and Zutphen - just going by the natal chart located there - seems intolerably boring. Is this the condition of your friend's life? Is it indeed narrow and intolerably boring there?

Wow, your assessment is spot on Jim, thank you very much.
That's what she tells me exactly so, how boring she finds it in Zutphen.
Her boyfriend lives in Rotterdam and she goes there every weekend and she feels much more alive there.
Thank you for deciphering her natal, I find it very educational.
What puzzles me with such a natal is that she is very frail looking with a soft demeanor despite her strong Mars and Pluto, she has a very gentle disposition. I would have expected her much more 'warrior' like which she is not.
She works in Amsterdam, mostly hybrid, two days a week she goes to the office there. Her Uranus, Neptune and Saturn straddle about equally the Midheaven there, just a little more away then in Rotterdam but still as strong.
Ideally I would think keeping Uranus and getting rid of Neptune and Saturn would be the favorite place to live? I will check Solar Fire to see if this is possible.
Would you have an idea of where in the whole country it would be best for her? It is only small
Regards, Flo

[Jim Eshelman]

You're right, it's small.

Her Sun is the weakest planet in the natal. (Perhaps that's the frail vitality? Or maybe there are genetics or early life hardship involved?) Her Sun barely is foreground in the Netherlands. I'd like to bring it closely angular but that's not possible within that area.

Perhaps we can fine tune with parans? I think you saw the recent thread where we were experimenting with these bringing out nuances in relocation? Solar Fire makes it easy to see them.

Except her parans are not good through the whole area. From north to south she gets Moon-Sun (the best), Sun-Neptune, Sun-Saturn, and Venus-Pluto. That Sun is in paran to her Saturn and Neptune through the heart of the country (Sun-Neptune at the exact latitude of Amsterdam, Sun-Saturn just below Rotterdam) is quite hard.

It does bring out one interesting consideration: She probably is already under Saturn-Neptune influences, working in Amsterdam (Su-Ne with lesser Su-Sa) and boyfriending in Rotterdam (Su-Sa and lesser Su-Ne). Perhaps she is acclimated to this? She feels the freedom of Rotterdam (Uranus) but does she also feel dark and morose whenever she goes there? It sounds like she does not. Perhaps it is not so bad despite the theory (or because she's used to it or somehow uses it?)

What kind of work does she do? Does any of the creative side I mentioned apply?

The only paran that looks good in theory is Moon-Sun, which is the upper edge of Netherlands - one would at least say north of Amsterdam somewhere, as close to the north coast as possible.

Other than that, the best I can find is in Belgium. Charleroi is not only on the exact longitude of her Uranus line, it's the exact latitude of a Venus-Uranus paran: Her Uranus sets at RAMC 333°11' and her Venus is on MC at 33°17'.

[FlorencedeZ.]

Thank you Jim.
I will discuss and ask her how she feels.
She loves looking at her charts and know more.
Her job is in finance, planning and analysing.
You mention Charleroi, however that is considered a special place having third generation unemployed families. One is not very keen on living there in general. The ugliest town of Belgium.
North of Amsterdam sounds real good, the frisian islands are nice.