Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

It has been a while since we've had a group participation activity. I propose we spend ten weeks on understanding the FUNDAMENTAL NEEDS corresponding to the ten confirmed planets. The proposal is that everybody spend about one week on the following meditation, keeping a record of your results and sharing them here. (Then we'll move to the next planet.)


Fundamental Need of SUN: Individuation needs: to forge a distinctive, integrated identity, to be a single distinct (distinguished) thing.

• Ensure that you understand the words of the definition.
• Identify this specified need in yourself. Recognize that you have it. Reflect on how it manifests in you at a simple, basic level, and then as secondary motivations and behaviors that arise from the simpler ones.
• How strong is this need in you compared to other needs? Compared to its strength in other people? How has it expressed itself in you at various stages of your life (from earliest memories through later life stages)?
• Have you been able to satisfy this need? Or has it gone largely unsatisfied?
• What are the worst things in your personality and behavior that arise from this need (and from succeeding or failing at satisfying it)? What are the best things?
• As far as possible, answer these questions about other people you know well.
• For this week or longer, as you meet and interact with other people, observe the presence of this specific need in yourself and in the other(s) during the interaction. What can you observe in terms of both how you share the need with them and how differences in the need’s intensity, your psychological maturity, and other factors produce different expressions.
• Please share the results of this exploration on this thread and feel free to engage in such discussion as arises.

Jim wrote:

The proposal is that everybody spend about one week on the following meditation, keeping a record of your results and sharing them here. (Then we'll move to the next planet.)

Not sure what you are asking for with a one week meditation-- but I know this: I can offer now a concise short statement what my Virgo Sun and its aspects manifested for my life with my life's "fundamental needs" having 76 years of experience. Is this OK or you after something else?

Thanks, Steve. The real intent is to have people take up a structured meditation (at least reflection) practice based on a specific way of witnessing the world, exploring ourselves, and integrating the content with several parts of the mind. (That's not spelled out, but that's a consequence of doing this sort of practice.)

These exercises are included in the Planets chapter of the 1,000-to-1,500-page book I've been writing and are part of what distinguishes it from every other astrology book written. If someone just reads the book then, OK, that's another astrology book. But the human brain as normally used isn't equipped to effectively handle the range (scope) of astrology - the astrology ends up spotty and fragmented. The approach of the book relies on the crafted exercises - people "doing their homework" - to rewire how their brains work.

I thought it would be fun here, and useful feedback to me, if people would undertake the exact exercises assigned in the book and report on them.

There are many goals of this specific practice (the first and most basic practice in the book). One is to center people in a specific view of the planets in terms of fundamental needs - everything else about the planet streaming out of that one idea. One is to discover the relative importance of the ten needs in themselves before learning what astrology says should be most important (obviously that won't work for the experienced astrologers here). Another is to start collating and associating ideas (within the astrologer) about various things like their own needs, psychological patterns, behaviors, where these same impulses have come out advantageously and disadvantageously, and other people. The exercises have the potential to add to someone's experience in a few months the kind of depth, integrated observational understanding of the planets that historically it has taken many decades of living for an astrologer to acquire.

I make these claims based on other experience with this sort of structured, patterned medication. It would also be good / useful to confirm that it can have this effect with astrological ideas. It's not about learning something new about the planets (we did that analytically before), it's about creating experiences that restructure brain patterns and activate empathy.

Jim wrote:

The exercises have the potential to add to someone's experience in a few months the kind of depth, integrated observational understanding of the planets that historically it has taken many decades of living for an astrologer to acquire.

I think I understand, but I will wait until another member posts to try and understand better. As far as understanding the “fundamental needs” of my planets in my scope for my life, I thoroughly understand, but I think you are after something else here with this thread. Many times I don’t have the astrological intelligence you do to understand exactly where you are coming from, but that doesn’t stop me from learning a-lot from your studies/teachings in my own way.

Steve, perhaps from what you already have experienced over many years of practicing astrology, and what you can draw from your memory with a little thought, you can share on the following inquiries - I've simplified the list for the moment to things that don't necessarily require further information. Start with the definition of Sun's fundamental need as stated, please.

Fundamental Need of SUN: Individuation needs: to forge a distinctive, integrated identity, to be a single distinct (distinguished) thing.

• Ensure that you understand the words of the definition.
• Identify this specified need in yourself. Recognize that you have it. Reflect on how it manifests in you at a simple, basic level, and then as secondary motivations and behaviors that arise from the simpler ones.
• How strong is this need in you compared to other needs?
• How strong is this need in you compared to its strength in other people you know?
• How has it expressed itself in you at various stages of your life (from earliest memories through later life stages)? Has its expression changed as you have matured and moved through your life?
• Have you been able to satisfy this need? Or has it gone largely unsatisfied?
• What are the worst things in your personality and behavior that arise from this need (and from succeeding or failing at satisfying it)?
• What are the best things?

I will do this Jim addressing each bullet point in detail with my Sun's Fundamental Needs. It may not be exactly what you are after, but I don't think it will be offensive to this thread.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:40 am Fundamental Need of SUN: Individuation needs: to forge a distinctive, integrated identity, to be a single distinct (distinguished) thing.

• Ensure that you understand the words of the definition.
• Identify this specified need in yourself. Recognize that you have it. Reflect on how it manifests in you at a simple, basic level, and then as secondary motivations and behaviors that arise from the simpler ones.

This feels almost like a Jungian type exercise. I'm willing to try it!

However, I have a concern. Can I still participate if I have a LACK of the things you mentioned? I feel like either my sun is very weak or is overshadowed by my moon, because I don't really feel the qualities you mentioned for the sun; instead, I feel their polar opposite in the sense of relinquishing an individual identity to assume a collective identity.

Thanks for playing. - And yes, if anything it's an advantage NOT to know if it is "supposed" to be strong. Cone legitimate conclusion could be thst this particular need is weak in you. (We're all a mix of weaker and stronger needs. Same needs set, different mix.)

Ok, fair enough. I will think on this a bit and be back in around a week with a fuller response. I already have a lot to say on this, but want to flesh it out more.

Good idea JE!!!
I know forum members, including myself, sometimes “mess up” your posts by posting too soon or not understanding the purpose and intent of posts.
The post here brings me new ideas and meaning to astrology and natal Sun.

Glad it suits you

It's been a week since I posted the above and the original idea was to give each of these a week for meditation. That, of course, still requires more time to reflect on the diary observations and post about the experiences. I think what I will do is post the next one (Moon) - so anyone interested can get started on the new week's meditations - while we still post our solar experiences here.

OK, that's the rhythm: Post a new planet once a week setting a rhythm of a week to meditate and (while starting the next one) a week to reflect, post, and discuss. Does that work for folks?

Fundamental Need of SUN: Individuation needs: to forge a distinctive, integrated identity, to be a single distinct (distinguished) thing.

I suppose before the week gets passed, I should post on this. I was hoping that a number of other people would do this first - that I could wait and not bias how people wrote about this - but, by their nature, these threads are likely time-limited I should write my own reports if I'm going to. (These have been half-century meditations, so mine won't sound like someone sitting down to do this for the first time.)

Meditation on the luminaries is, I think, necessarily different from the other planets. The solar and lunar needs seem to me to be different kinds of things - related to deeper constructs in the psyche. Isn't maturing and fulfilling the solar need the entire course of unfolding life? Isn't it the universal "great work,." something that needs to be fulfilled at higher and higher points of the spiral, constantly unlocking fundamental things about ourselves? I think so.

It seems certain to me that every one of us is at once a single, distinct, irreplicable individual AND that we are inseparably connected to everyone and everything else. We begin, though, as part of the collective - the herd - the family and community - with minimal individual distinction. Our entire life is about emerging as that irreplaceably distinguished specific individual - retracing the developmental steps that the whole species traversed millennia ago. While this is a normal human path of psychological development, there does seem an imperative (connected to the solar force in us) to be a thing that is unique in the sense of their isn't another quite the same as me and the universe needs this specific thing as part of its function. Whether exactly true or not, these psychological pressures are the birthing process of distinguished individuality. They force the collective glob of toothpaste out the narrowly focused opening in the toothpaste tube. Our mother's parturition delivered another generic-seeming member of the tribe into being, then our psychological maturation (sometimes supported and sometimes resisted or misdirected by family, society, and peers) similarly births the specific individual that we will be in the world.

Or so it always has seemed to me.

So, first: Yes, I recognize and can discern the specific need in myself to force a distinctive, integrated identity that emerges as a single distinct (distinguished) thing. Aside from the other consideration that I am just another member of the human race, it has always seemed utterly imperative that I stand out from that milieu, distinguish myself as a particular something that has his own role or contribution (or perhaps some other reason to exist as a particular something). - Notice how pretty close to 1005 of all good, bad, and indifferent traits attributed to Sun in astrology spin out of this one inner imperative.

When I look back through my life, the turning point was probably puberty (which does seem to me like the birthing moment of the solar phase of most people's lives). From that point on there has been the sense described above and a pretty clear (albeit spiral) path to its attainment.

I think this is everybody's path (though perhaps less evident in some people because of their innate nature or their conditions). In any case, I know it's been basic to my life, as natural as my hair growing. (Samson analogies probably apply, but that would be a digression.)

Speaking of digressions, a brief one on my chart: Why is this solar need so powerful in me? I'm not a Leo and don't have Sun on an angle. - I created these meditations to be performed outside the context of what is actually so in our charts (allowing us to discover how it fits or doesn't fit when we reflect on these things in their own terms), so I've written the main part above first. But perhaps I should say something about this. First, Sun (19° below Ascendant) is my second most angular planet. Though Moon is my only foreground planet, and the lunar strength gives even more reason to think the opposite-toned solar side would be less evident, that doesn't seem to be true. Sun at 60% angularity strength, no other planet having more than 46% strength. (That's quite a gap.) So, over the years in judging how angularity curves work, I've always had to keep in mind that my middleground Sun is (quite measurably) my second strongest planet - even if not foreground.

Otherwise, I tend to think the solar needs are similar strong in pretty much everybody - that it's not just me. I'm probably in the worst possible situation to judge if this is true based on my own wiring, but I think it's true. I think it's nearly the whole of Jung's message. It's the entire "path of the Hero." As we were born from our mothers at age Zero, our solar self needs to be born from our lunar selves eventually then follow the path of leaving innocence, leaving the mother, venturing into the world for adventures and shaping (refining) experiences, and eventually cycle back to the center - the center of ourselves - and take our throne. Isn't everybody Parsifal?

Returning from the digression, then: How strong is this need in me compared to other needs? It seems pretty fundamental. I don't spend my days thinking, "Oh, that spotlight needs to be on me! It's pointed the wrong direction! I'm who you should be looking at over here!" No, but the inner pressure to discover which specific, distinguished being I am has been with me (and acted on) at least from puberty. Before that, I can't detect anything quite like that. Before puberty, the closest equivalent seems to have been curiosity (a natural characteristic of the pre-pubertal development stage for everyone, and perhaps more for me), e.g., curiosity about "what I would be when I grow up."

Is it more important than other needs? I don't think it's ever been more important than curiosity and wanting to learn. It often was bound up with Uranian or Plutonian ideas, i.e., "being a distinguished person" has always for me been tied up in "being unlike others," "being the one who clearly doesn't belong here and isn't like the rest of you." (That surely will come out in other needs studies as we continue.)

I don't know how comparatively strong it is in me vs. other people because it seems to me that it's basic to simply being human and alive on this planet - but this could be the groups of people I've attracted to hovered near in my life. Even in my work life, I'm almost 100% around extraordinary people who are accomplished and distinguished. I think it's pretty universal, though I have only my own psyche to trace through memory all the way back along the corkscrew path and see its roots.

Yes, I have been able to satisfy this need: I am a distinct person, quickly recognizable as such by anyone who even briefly knows me (and certainly reflected across my life).

My worst and best traits arising from this are close to text-book Sun. Insistence on being a distinct somebody has led to distinction, clear paths, and success, and also to seeming aloof, outside, bossy, sometimes self-absorbed. Obviously those things that let my motion to most smoothly involve outside voices authentically noting that I am a particular, individual something-or-other and those things that bring out the worst in me are outside voices portraying me as an undistinguished member of the general herd. (I suppose I could go through the formal list of Sun Foreground traits to flesh this out, but this is what comes to mind as I write these "guided stream of consciousness."

For this week or longer, as you meet and interact with other people, observe the presence of this specific need in yourself and in the other(s) during the interaction. What can you observe in terms of both how you share the need with them and how differences in the need’s intensity, your psychological maturity, and other factors produce different expressions.

I haven't pointedly done that as part of a current practice. Maybe I'll do that this next week (or maybe I need to be working on the lunar equivalent). I think I've answered some of this above. I tend to exist in social and, especially, business circles where recognizing each other's solar elements is pretty engrained and automatic.

Maybe that's it for now.

@Jim

I've really been hesitant to answer this question because this is a most difficult subject for me to talk about, and I wanted to make sure I gave you a good answer. Even though I've been thinking about it since I first responded to this thread, I'm STILL struggling to put this into words in a way you will understand. I will try my best.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:40 am Fundamental Need of SUN: Individuation needs: to forge a distinctive, integrated identity, to be a single distinct (distinguished) thing.

• Ensure that you understand the words of the definition.
• Identify this specified need in yourself. Recognize that you have it. Reflect on how it manifests in you at a simple, basic level, and then as secondary motivations and behaviors that arise from the simpler ones.
• How strong is this need in you compared to other needs? Compared to its strength in other people? How has it expressed itself in you at various stages of your life (from earliest memories through later life stages)?
• Have you been able to satisfy this need? Or has it gone largely unsatisfied?

I will start out by saying the way you describe the needs of the sun do not resonate with me at all; but instead, the exact opposite does. Maybe that IS my need -- to be the opposite of the typical sun?

I will frame this topic in the light of languages.

When I began learning Japanese, it was terribly difficult, but also a breath of fresh air at the same time. The Japanese way of thinking about, perceiving, and describing the world, and also the way they perceive the self is VERY different than the American way. It's what I call the "Eastern" way of thinking (as opposed to that of the modern Western world). The more I studied Japanese and learned about Japanese culture, the more I felt "at home", despite being born and raised in America.

For those that don't know, in the Japanese language, even though they have MANY different words to say "I" (i.e. "boku", "ore", "atashi", "watashi", "watakushi", etc.), they are not often used! That's one of the biggest mistakes people make when learning Japanese -- the abuse of "I" and also "you". It's not like Romance languages either where the verb tells you who is doing the action. In Japanese, the verb is exactly the same whether I'm doing the action, you're doing the action, or someone else is doing the action. This is hard for a Westerner to understand because in Western culture, we are used to emphasizing and prioritizing the individual over everything else. I think America is the king of this. In Japan, however, the individual is pushed to the background and the role that one plays as a collective is emphasized. It's in every aspect of the culture, including the language. THIS is the thing that feels most at home for me.

Furthermore, another unique characteristic of Japanese is how they use the passive voice much more than we do. But it's not the same as the passive voice in English. The passive voice in Japanese means something happened to the subject, and it was outside of the subject's control. This is in opposition to active verbs in Japanese where the subject is exerting volitional control. In English (compared to Japanese), we have a HEAVY preference for active verbs because again, we like to emphasize the individual, whereas in Japan, they de-emphasize the individual.

Along with passive verbs, they have another set of verbs called "intransitive verbs". They're not exactly the same as intransitive verbs in English. In Japanese, these are called jidoushi, and it literally means "action towards the self" as opposed to tadoushi which means "action towards others". (In Sanskrit, they have the exact same concept in "ātmanepadam" and "parasmaipadam"; the Japanese probably borrowed this concept from them.) Anyway, these Japanese intransitive verbs indicate that something happens or occurs on its own, either naturally or of its own volition (as with verbs of motion). So for example, in English we say, "He broke the TV" for transitive voice, but "The TV broke by itself" for more of the intransitive voice. The latter is closer to the Japanese sense in that no one specifically broke the TV. It just happened, somehow, by itself. This is akin to the "middle voice" in other languages. In English, we do indeed use intransitive verbs in what could be called the "middle voice", but its usage in Japanese is MUCH more extensive in ways that seem bizarre to a native English speaker. Again, because they are DE-EMPHASIZING the individual and his/her volition.

This kind of middle voice usage was much more prevalent in ancient languages like Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Latin (to some extent), etc., but its use decreased as we started getting into the modern world with an emphasis on the individual. Rodolph Steiner has some really thought provoking articles on this topic on languages, the evolution of man, and how it relates to a collective consciousness vs. an individual consciousness. Steiner gave a great example of this by saying in modern languages, we say "I'm singing a song" (emphasis on the self, volitional will, and individualism). But in ancient languages, they would use something like the middle voice or passive voice to describe this because they meant a different sense by it. To say this in the middle voice, it would be something like "The singing of this song is somehow happening to me. The melody is coming out of my body, but I'm not the one controlling it. The gods or something outside of me is dictating it, and I am serving as a vessel." We don't have much of this kind of thought pattern in English, except sometimes in religious circles. Because it is hard to express this in English, a lot of times when these senses are used in foreign languages, they still get translated into English as "I'm singing a song".

I start this conversation talking about language because the sense of individuality is so hardwired into the English language (and many Western European languages) that it becomes hard to imagine any other possibility. The language itself becomes the bias until you've had a chance to study a far Eastern language or an ancient language.

If I had to describe a sun need for myself, it would be a need to diminish the individual and emphasize the collective as is done in many Asian cultures. My need is to see how I can best be service to others and support the community as a whole. Because I don't see myself as an single, solitary individual per se, but rather as an individual who is part of an interdependent whole. Thus, the whole IS part of me. Each part plays a role in the functioning of the whole. I have to play my part to allow the whole to operate well. (This paragraph is sounding quite Japanese.)

So, relative to most typical Americans, I am nowhere near as "individual driven" as they are. Most people I know or meet are very "I" focused. They are focused on what kind of person they want to be (that is distinct from everyone else). They are focused on what they personally want to achieve (not really thinking as much about others). Their are focused on their goals and accomplishments and desires, de-emphasizing the collective. In this way, I am the polar opposite to them.

Jim Eshelman wrote:

• What are the worst things in your personality and behavior that arise from this need (and from succeeding or failing at satisfying it)? What are the best things?

When you are not individual oriented but you live in a society full of people who are individual oriented, it is extremely hard. My natural instinct is to want to behave in a way that supports the whole. But when the people around you are "I" centered, they act in a way that only supports themselves. Thus, it becomes hard for me to fulfill my role, and I have to sacrifice some of my true nature just simply to survive.

To me, these things are common sense -- support the whole. But for most Americans I encounter, it's a foreign idea. You have to sit and explain how it works to them. A LOT. And even then, they don't always get it. It just takes too much work and energy. Japan was such a breath of fresh air because when I started interacting with people from Japan, they "got it" immediately because it is the life they already live!!! I didn't have to explain anything to them like I usually do with Americans. They just "understood".


Jim, I'm really curious, if you were to ask these same questions to those that have lived their whole lives in Japan or similar far East countries, or even if you were somehow able to go back in time 3,000 years and ask people these same questions, I think you might end up getting a VERY different kind of response. Also, there are some African languages that don't have a word for "I"; they only have a word for "we". I wonder if you asked the same question to them, what kind of answer you would get.

If you have follow up questions, please feel free to ask.

First, thanks for answering this. I almost posted earlier today in the lunar thread that I was going to stop posting them because nobody seemed to be participating. (I'm late, I should have posted the new Mercury thread yesterday. Maybe I'll go ahead and do it today. anyway.

Now, here's the question that follows on that: How strong is your Sun. From what you have written, I would think it's in the background (or, in the alternative, exactly aspected by, say, Neptune). Is your Sun closely conjunct an angle? If not, how close to a cadent cusp is it?

I found it fascinating that you characterized your description as "how your Sun works" because (unless, of course, you have Sun exactly on an angle) I would have phrased it as a much lower intensity of the solar (individuation) need in your psyche. You have described something much more lunar or - even more - Neptunian (just going by what you've written).

RingsOfSaturn22 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:18 pm Jim, I'm really curious, if you were to ask these same questions to those that have lived their whole lives in Japan or similar far East countries, or even if you were somehow able to go back in time 3,000 years and ask people these same questions, I think you might end up getting a VERY different kind of response. Also, there are some African languages that don't have a word for "I"; they only have a word for "we". I wonder if you asked the same question to them, what kind of answer you would get.

I've written about this in other contexts over the years. To rephrase as briefly as I can:

The solar planetary expression is the last (at least of the classic seven planets) to manifest in the human condition. It seems to have been the dharma of Western civilization to develop it and see it flourish while the East had a dharma to substantially preserve the pre-solar, substantially lunar elements of culture and psychology. When bifurcate the world like two brain hemispheres? My own view of the developmental flow of humanity is that there had to be separation for the solar-egoic idea to fully develop and distinguish itself - to move away, separate, etc. just as the Hero has to leave his mother and native land. But if this were the only development, the lunar side would be lost, or so massively suppressed as to be mostly lost. This, in fact, is exactly what happened in Western culture: The arising of the solar (themed male) egoic-intellectual necessary next evolutionary step came with suppression of the feminine, lumped together with the juvenile, lumped together with animals and anything deemed instinctual, etc. (In Hebrew terms, this is the emergence of Ruach from a stage where people had only a developed Nefesh.)

Meanwhile, while people in the East did develop egos and keep up with evolution, their cultures, languages, religions substantially preserved the pre-solar stage so that, when both were fully mature, they could unite.

We read in many places that ancient astrology was lunar, and not solar - that Moon sign meant more etc. Of course it was because the lunar part of the psyche was the most fundamental. The solar hadn't really developed. Though it existed earlier, we don't see it really starting to gel until 5th century BCE Greece where the laws and structures of intellectual mind were mapped and articulated. A thousand years ago we see the movement of its evolution portrayed in the myth of Arthur, who was always held out as a boy kind - a solar force trying to rise up and unite England (draw together and integrate all the fragmented and varied parts of the universe) and wed his natural mate, Gwenevere, who was the full embodiment of the old lunar world. Gwen found it more natural, of course, to join with Lancelot because he was the male as males existed in the lunar times. Excalibur, like any sword, was a symbol of the ego-intellect and it emerged from a body of water (the Moon) - rose to a single point! - as the ego rises up out of our infantile lunar state, and returned to it in the end. And so forth.

And Arthur, the boy king, shows that the Ruach (rational egoic intellect) was still immature, nowhere near ready to be a proper mate to the fully mature lunar queen.

But not many centuries later - perhaps tagged to the Magna Carta - the new wave of individual liberty and democratic force - a voice to all the individual, separate, divided, multiple voices - began to emerge powerfully. It's climax (in theory, anyway) was in the establishment of the historically unique American nation, which sparked other democratic reforms on other Western nations.

This is the emergence of ego and reason - the solar principle - the individual - in Western civilization. Meanwhile, the East kept an older way of looking at things (including older, more lunar-themed astrologies) safe for the time when Sun and Moon could wed and reign together.

I don't know how these questions would play if tested in Japan (among Japanese) today. Maybe the same. Or maybe they would just be very uncomfortable and maybe a little clumsy, like asking an American man in the 1950s to talk about feelings. If we went back 3,000 years ago, the solar force wouldn't have been a viable idea yet, nor was it needed - because that faculty wasn't yet significantly awake in an identifiable way in the human psyche. (They might have said, "Why ask me about the Sun, you can't even see the sky when it's out!")

This is the complementation of Sun and Moon. Moon is that part of us that is the herd, feeling life itself connect all things, the sense of life finding it's way instinctively to stay alive (among other things of the same type, of course). Sun is the single point differentiated and singled out from all that - the idea that an individual within the herd or clan or community could have a differentiated function and exist for a unique, distinctive purpose.

So... where, in the angularity framework, is your Sun? I suspect it is away from angles and most likely in the immediate background and some other need set - probably lunar or Neptunian - is more prevalent. If I'm wrong and your Sun is angular, then I'm going to guess it's closely aspected by Neptune.

PS - Regarding passive voice: Yes, a basic, almost dominant, instruction in contemporary writing is to avoid the passive voice unless you have a very specific reason for using it - and then think twice. Active verbs draw attention, engage readers - at least Western readers. A few years ago, I revised a set of perfectly good, working rituals for an organization in several ways, but one was in terms of language used, using every trick to cause energy to move and flow merely by the hearing of the words. One of the devices was the elimination of ALL passive voice constructions - 100%, no matter the context, no matter how awkward it was at first (merely forcing me to get more creative and overcome the awkwardness) - EXCEPT in a couple of very precise places where what was called for was for was to snap the person into immediate receptivity to something. After very long exposure to nothing but active verbs, it took very little to snap the psyche into receptivity than the sudden flip to passive constructions. The two do represent different states of the psyche.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:06 pm The solar planetary expression is the last (at least of the classic seven planets) to manifest in the human condition. It seems to have been the dharma of Western civilization to develop it and see it flourish while the East had a dharma to substantially preserve the pre-solar, substantially lunar elements of culture and psychology. When bifurcate the world like two brain hemispheres? My own view of the developmental flow of humanity is that there had to be separation for the solar-egoic idea to fully develop and distinguish itself - to move away, separate, etc. just as the Hero has to leave his mother and native land. But if this were the only development, the lunar side would be lost, or so massively suppressed as to be mostly lost. This, in fact, is exactly what happened in Western culture: The arising of the solar (themed male) egoic-intellectual necessary next evolutionary step came with suppression of the feminine, lumped together with the juvenile, lumped together with animals and anything deemed instinctual, etc. (In Hebrew terms, this is the emergence of Ruach from a stage where people had only a developed Nefesh.)

Meanwhile, while people in the East did develop egos and keep up with evolution, their cultures, languages, religions substantially preserved the pre-solar stage so that, when both were fully mature, they could unite.

This is great stuff! It seems to have a lot of parallels with Rudolph Steiner's work on the matter. I mostly agree with what you said here. I 100% agree with the first sentence.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:06 pm Excalibur, like any sword, was a symbol of the ego-intellect and it emerged from a body of water (the Moon) - rose to a single point! - as the ego rises up out of our infantile lunar state, and returned to it in the end. And so forth.

A great parallel!

@Steve, this is exactly the type of thing I was looking for.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:06 pm PS - Regarding passive voice: Yes, a basic, almost dominant, instruction in contemporary writing is to avoid the passive voice unless you have a very specific reason for using it - and then think twice. Active verbs draw attention, engage readers - at least Western readers. A few years ago, I revised a set of perfectly good, working rituals for an organization in several ways, but one was in terms of language used, using every trick to cause energy to move and flow merely by the hearing of the words. One of the devices was the elimination of ALL passive voice constructions - 100%, no matter the context, no matter how awkward it was at first (merely forcing me to get more creative and overcome the awkwardness) - EXCEPT in a couple of very precise places where what was called for was for was to snap the person into immediate receptivity to something. After very long exposure to nothing but active verbs, it took very little to snap the psyche into receptivity than the sudden flip to passive constructions. The two do represent different states of the psyche.

Fascinating exercise.

Would you say brain dominance is also related to this? While I CAN operate in both a left brain and right brain dominant way, I feel more at home with right brain dominance (and hence all the lunar associations). Whenever I take brain dominance tests, I usually lean more towards the right brain, but not by that far. Really, it just depends on my mood when I'm taking the test. (The moodiness is probably another lunar characteristic, haha.)

That said, I never thought of associating brain dominance with the use of active vs passive (or even middle) voice, but now I can see the connection. Passive voice is what I instinctively want to use. Teachers had to encourage me to use the active voice.

RingsOfSaturn22 wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:42 am Would you say brain dominance is also related to this?

(1) I don't know.
(2) Probably not.

I know of nothing in the neuro literature that distinguishes brain hemisphere functions according to active-passive modes.

While I CAN operate in both a left brain and right brain dominant way, I feel more at home with right brain dominance (and hence all the lunar associations).

I call this reading between the lines more than reading the lines.

While I CAN operate in both a left brain and right brain dominant way, I feel more at home with right brain dominance (and hence all the lunar associations).
I call this reading between the lines more than reading the lines.

Its where all the good stuff comes from, IMO.

I do strongly feel a need to not only assert my individuality as a life form, earthling, human, woman but to recognize this distinction in all others I encounter, even if they do not.
I also do feel a strong lulling desire to slip my consciousness into the collective subconscious and detach from the physicalness of my living burning spirit to persevere.
For me, being able to soundly say "I am me" is a very real anchor.
Considering how bloody old I am I say I have been extremely successful at staying alive and fulfilling my need of asserting my uniqueness and individuality. Of course looking back over so many years I see many ways I could have done things more skillfully and mindful.
The worst things in my personality that arises from this need.....hmmm, I think I am at my worst when I slip into collective thinking and not individuality, when I generalize things, speak vaguely, or think overly judgmental or critical.
I am at my best when I remember who I am, when I was born and when and what that moment of time resonates with.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:06 pm I found it fascinating that you characterized your description as "how your Sun works" because (unless, of course, you have Sun exactly on an angle) I would have phrased it as a much lower intensity of the solar (individuation) need in your psyche. You have described something much more lunar or - even more - Neptunian (just going by what you've written).

I just recalled something. I don't know if it will tie in with a lack of solar needs, but I'll let you be the judge of that.

From the time I was around 10 years old or so, I told my parents that I didn't want them to celebrate my birthday. I told them I didn't want any gifts or anything like that. I was perfectly content as it was and preferred to remember my day of birth alone, quietly, in self-reflection. I also told them I didn't want Christmas gifts either.

Let's just say this didn't go over very well with them. They thought I had completely lost my mind. They couldn't understand why a child wouldn't want any gifts and special attention. They were determined to give me gifts and thus still tried, but I refused them.

If I'm totally honest, I absolutely HATED anything that brought special attention and uniqueness to me. For instance, when I was in school, I was always at the top of my class, and as a result, I always got a lot of rewards and public recognition. I HATED it!!!! I would rather just do my thing in private and have no one know about it. But instead, the teachers always wanted to recognize me and make a big deal about it. Even though I would usually get the highest grade on tests, I refrained from telling people because I didn't want to stand out or be treated differently. I simply wanted to blend in with everyone else. I was actually relieved when someone else would score higher than me. But even that backfired because all the other students would be in utter disbelief that I didn't score the highest -- they were sure something was wrong with the test. So I would still get a lot of unwanted attention.

Would you say all of the above are due to low solar needs?

Disclaimer: Jim has already provided me the raw strength of my fundamental needs, so I can’t say that I am going in totally unbiased. However, to illustrate that I am not simply confirming what I’ve been given, I can say that in my experience my information needs, which are associated with Mercury, are much stronger than the score that I have received. The strength of my Sun discussed here, however, does seem on point.


I prepped with some breathing exercises and calming of the mind, and then I pondered the needs while on a walk.

The individuation needs associated with the Sun feel very de-emphasized within me.
My first reflection as a separate distinct consciousness was at 8 yrs old.
Throughout school with friends I never acted in a way to intentionally draw attention to myself or create any sort of name for myself among my peers. I have always been quiet, but not especially self conscious or shy. I simply did not desire to behave in a way that would cause others to notice me. Never had an interest in standing out. I always preferred to go unnoticed. Same in college. Even though I fell into some roles that did distinguish me such as VP of a club and also VP of my college’s Honors Society, I felt little desire to be in the leadership roles beyond helping out the people that needed someone to fill the role. Nor did I have a strong sense of pride being identified with those roles.

I am consciously aware of my existence as distinct in this body but quite frankly feel no special emphasis towards it other than self preservation and acting on other instinctual needs. Similarly, I feel little sense of connection to my name as anything more than an identifier that I was given. I feel little connection to my name beyond knowing it refers to me. I don’t desire to make a name for myself or to distinguish myself in any particular way.

I think it is important to emphasize that I don’t in anyway dislike myself, or my body, or my life; I simply feel like an individual conscious entity, existing, observing, experiencing, without the draw to be especially distinguished. I do indeed have unique interests, drives, and needs, and I feel I likely have a unique calling in life that I need to discover, but no need to be especially recognized for it or to associate any of this with a distinguished identity.

I do have a strong tendency to resist conforming to the herd, albeit quietly. I have quite strong freedom needs. When external variables, whether people, or rules, or events obstruct what I feel called to do then I resist, oppose, or speak up if I have to. I actively seek freedom and promote it silently where I can, but I think this has more to do with Uranus, unless I’m mistaken.

I think this individuation need is satisfied within me without effort, probably because its so weak. I am not sure of positives or negatives. Any I can think of seem more connected to other planet’s needs.
I don’t want to go into answering how I see this manifested in other people, but I have definitely identified people in my life who seem to have clearly strong Sun needs and those who don’t. On a scale of 1 to 10, I think this need is 1/10 for me based on how strong several of the other needs seem to manifest in comparison.

RingsOfSaturn22 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:18 pm When I began learning Japanese, it was terribly difficult, but also a breath of fresh air at the same time. The Japanese way of thinking about, perceiving, and describing the world, and also the way they perceive the self is VERY different than the American way. It's what I call the "Eastern" way of thinking (as opposed to that of the modern Western world). The more I studied Japanese and learned about Japanese culture, the more I felt "at home", despite being born and raised in America.

Regarding what RingsOfSaturn22 said, as someone who has also studied the Japanese language and culture for many years, I can agree that the Japanese culture does indeed de-emphasize the individual and instead focuses on the community, the herd. However, I do not believe the basic psychology of the Japanese people is any different than ours in the West. There are still plenty of Japanese people who have powerful urges to distinguish themselves, Japanese people who’s innate natures disagree with how their society operates. The same is true everywhere. The US is rather opposite of Japan in terms of individuality, yet I have lived here all my life with a nature probably more suited to the Japanese culture, at least in terms of individuation. People adhere to the rules of their culture in order to survive and meet their needs, but it doesn’t mean their natures are defined by it or necessarily mesh well with it.