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How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:02 am
by Sharla
Hello, I just joined the forum today after reading through it a couple of weeks and finding it educational. I've downloaded the software and have been experimenting with it, looking at previous horary and return charts. I use midpoints since I'm highly mercurial and don't want to miss anything lol. I've tried to find information on here, and I've tried and tried again to change the chart options, all to no effect. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. Could someone explain to me what I need to alter to get the midpoints to show?
In chart options I have midpoints checked on [ALL]
When you click on the midpoint option and it takes you to a new page, as it asks for orbs in minutes, I've entered [59] in each box. Which I am then assuming gives me a maximum 1°orb.
Ive chosen direct midpoints.
Mundane I don't fully understand but I have also entered [59]
Ive then saved it.
When I do a chart I have my transiting aspects/radical aspects/class 1 aspects/other partile aspects
But, (as an example) the cosmic state only shows this:
Mo Ge | sq rSa 0°14' op rNe 0°41'M sq rJu 1°15' sq rMo 1°35'
Su Pi | co rMa 0°20' co rEr 0°30' co rVe 0°50'
Me Pi- | co rMe 0° 0'M co tSa 0°45'M
Ve Pi+ | sq rNe 0°41'
Ma Ge | sq tEr 0°11' sq rPl 0°55'
Ju Ta |
Sa Aq | sq rNe 0°34' co tMe 0°45'M co rMe 0°45'M
Ur Ar |
Ne Pi+ |
Pl Cp |
Er Pi | sq tMa 0°11'
And from what I've gathered looking through the forum, I'm sure the midpoints should be displayed at the bottom of the cosmic state aspects?
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:23 am
by Jim Eshelman
Welcome to Solunars, Charla. Let's see if we can get your questions answered.
Sharla wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:02 am
In chart options I have midpoints checked on [ALL]
The [ALL] button refers to aspects (it's on the "Show Aspects" row). I see that it might be confusing since the Midpoints button is at the end of the same row (space saving). The ALL selection is unrelated to Midpoints.
When you click on the midpoint option and it takes you to a new page, as it asks for orbs in minutes, I've entered [59] in each box. Which I am then assuming gives me a maximum 1°orb.
Close. You should enter 60, for a full degree, but you're getting close.
Ive chosen direct midpoints.
Mundane I don't fully understand but I have also entered [59]
Ive then saved it.
Hae you looked at the Help text for the midpoints page? It does have the basics, but probably should be expanded in the future.
The 0/180 box is for conjunction-opposition (same thing) of planets to midpoints. The 90 is for squares to the half-sum. The 45 box is for orbs for semi-squares or sesqui-squares to midpoints. - You get whatever midpoints you have non-zero values in the boxes (e.g., you only get 0./180 aspects to midpoints if you only put something in the first box).
The Direct/Indirect choice is for how squares to midpoints are labelled. Classically they are considered indirect midpoints. I've made arguments that they should be considered direct. If you want the classic approach, select Indirect; otherwise leave it as it is. (You get the same contacts either way.)
By the way, you can either set this for ALL charts by making these changes under Chart Options, or you can change it one chart at a time by clicking the Temporary button when you put in the data for the chart. - It sounds like you want to change it in the Chart Options section.
When I do a chart I have my transiting aspects/radical aspects/class 1 aspects/other partile aspects. But, (as an example) the cosmic state only shows this [no midpoints].
Ah, I see the problem. Is your sample a return chart? That takes a separate step. Let me walk you through that in the next post.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:25 am
by Jim Eshelman
To start your changes, click Chart Options on the front screen.
On the new screen, notice that the top box says "Default Natal." If you click Midpoints and set up orbs etc., then click Save, you'll change the "Default Natal" options. This will only affect NATAL charts.
To change this for return charts, click the Load button to get a display of other options files. Pick Default_Return.opt. The options page will now show the options used (by default, unless you change them) for return charts. Set the Midpoints here and save it.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:57 am
by Sharla
Hi Jim, thank you for your prompt reply.
For default natal, In midpoint options, I've now set all orbs to 60, and I've chosen indirect instead of direct, then I've saved.
I've opened a natal chart to see if it now gives me midpoints for natal, but still nothing. [/quote]
Did you recalculate the chart? (Pull it up and click the Calculate button?) If not, then it will pull it the way it was calculated last time (without midpoints).
I've done as you've suggested for the default returns and I'm still not getting any midpoints. This is a random SLR I've pulled up and from cosmic state down, this is all is shown.
When you say "pulled up," do you mean you've used the Find Chart button to pull it from storage? Or did you recalculate it? (Charts are stored the way they were most recently calculated.)
But... oh, wait a minute... I never have midpoints turned on for return charts so I hadn't noticed (or had forgotten) - they're not showing up.
I apologize. I think what happened is that the original programmer only enabled midpoints for natal charts.
Note to Mike V (who will probably be looking in): Can you confirm that midpoints aren't coded to appear in return charts? (I'm guessing if that was never built, it's a non-trivial thing to enable, right? Different logic (since two different charts are involved).
Sharla, you should be getting these for natal charts, though. For example, here is how Pres. Biden's natal Cosmic State looks with the settings you specified:
Code: Select all
Cosmic State
Mo Ar B | Su Sc-
| sq Pl 0°49'M sq Ju 5°51'
| Ju/Pl 12'i Ve/Ne 57'd
Su Sc F | Mo Ar+
| co Ve 0°45'M tr Ju 2°26' sx Ne 3°57' op Ur 4°58'M
| co Me 6° 1'
| Me/As 12'd Me/Ur 24'i Ju/Ne 46'i
Me Li | tr Ju 3°36' co Su 6° 1' co Ve 7° 1' co Ma 8°57'
| Ve/Ma 58'd Ju/Mc 59'i
Ve Sc- F | Mo Ar- Su Sc-
| co Su 0°45'M sx Ne 2°58' tr Ju 3°25' op Ur 4°13'
| co Me 7° 1' tr Pl 8°40'
| Pl/Mc 1'i Ju/Ne 14'i
Ma Li B | Su Sc+
| sq Pl 5°22' co Me 8°57'
Ju Cn+ | tr Su 2°26' tr Ve 3°25' tr Me 3°36' sq Mo 5°51'
| sx Ne 6°23' sx Ur 7°38'
| Ve/Mc 54'i
Sa Ta F | Mo Ar-
| sx Pl 2°44' co Ur 5°23'M tr Ne 8°26'
Ur Ta F | tr Ne 1°16' op Ve 4°13' sx Pl 4°27' op Su 4°58'M
| co Sa 5°23'M sx Ju 7°38'
| Su/Sa 59'i
Ne Vi- | tr Ur 1°16' sx Ve 2°58' sx Su 3°57' sx Pl 5°43'
| sx Ju 6°23' tr Sa 8°26'
| Su/Pl 53'd
Pl Cn B | Mo Ar+
| sq Mo 0°49'M sx Sa 2°44' sx Ur 4°27' sq Ma 5°22'
| sx Ne 5°43' tr Ve 8°40'
| Mo/Ma 26'd
As Sc | Su/Sa 34'i
Mc Le | Mo/Pl 48'i
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 11:32 am
by Sharla
I think it has something to do with how im inputting or saving the charts because I've randomly tried another chart which was titled "Natal single wheel" and I've not typed in "single wheel" but this one had midpoints showing. I've now just had to delete all saved charts in the file because I'm getting a mixture of some charts showing midpoints and some not. So when I'm setting up a new chart I'm doing something wrong but I don't know what.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 11:43 am
by Jim Eshelman
For a natal chart:
0. In Chart Options, make sure all settings are the way you want them with Default Natal in the blank at the top. When done, click Save.
1. Click New Chart. Put in the data (firstname, lastname, m/d/y, time). For Location, you can type in the city and the longitude / latitude, are you can type in the city and click Find; most places in the world, it will pull up so you don't have to add long/lat manually.
2. Time zone is automatically populated with the Find button for most places after IIRC 1970. Otherwise, you can type a label (e.g., EST) in the Time Zone field and the hour equivalent in the TZ Corr HMS fields.
3. Click Calculate.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 11:53 am
by Sharla
Thanks for your help Jim, i think I've sorted it now. I've deleted all my other saved charts and will do new ones.
Natal midpoints are now showing, which is amazing. But as you say return charts don't have that option, which is okay as I can still get lots of helpful data for a return chart from the foreground and partile aspects. As midpoints [now] show in natal this is also going to be useful for horary charts.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 12:00 pm
by Jim Eshelman
If you only want midpoints internal to the return chart - not involving natal planets - you can:
1. Calculate the return chart normally.
2. On the Select Chart screen, pick the return and click Calculate Chart.
3. For the Options field, click the Select button and choose Default Natal.
You'll get a single-wheel return chart treated as a natal.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 1:02 pm
by Sharla
Okay, I'll try that out, thankyou for the tip.
One final question regarding the midpoints. What does F mean? (Mo Cp- F) I know its Moon in Cap, but I'm not sure about the F. I was thinking it might mean 'fast in motion', but I'm not sure.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 1:07 pm
by Jim Eshelman
Foreground.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 1:39 pm
by Sharla
Im testing out the SLR midpoint tip you gave me. But I once again have questions.
In the chart Mercury is closely foreground
Code: Select all
| | | |
| | |Me 5Cn43 01°30'|
20Ta52-----------+----------------+----------------+----------- 7Cn23
| | | | |
But here Mercury is shown as being very much background
Code: Select all
Me 5Cn42'32" 1N45 + 1°43' 123°25' 21N41 335°50' -12°32' 191°28' 151°30' 1% b
And Mercury in the midpoints is shown as foreground
Code: Select all
Me Cn F | Su Ge+
| op Pl 0°33'
| Ur/Mc 45'i
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 2:00 pm
by Jim Eshelman
These appear not to be the same chart. One shows Mercury at 5°43'01" Cancer and the other at 5°42'32" Cancer. That's a difference of 0°00'29". Since, in the second snippet, Mercury's speed is shown as +1°43', it would travel 0°00'29" in only a few minutes - not enough time to make this kind of extreme difference - but it does tell me that these aren't from the same chart.
When you recalculated, did you put in exactly the same data? Your first example, with Mercury 1°30' above Descendant, would have had a PVL of 181°30', but your second example has Mercury with a PVL of 151°30' as if they were done for locations 30° of longitude apart.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 2:47 pm
by Sharla
I've just done a chart of the moment, so I'm not even inputting data. But I'm still getting conflicting data regarding midpoint foreground planets.
I'm going to have to post the whole thing so you can see exactly what I mean.
For example, Jupiter is 23°background but shows up as foreground in the midpoints.
Code: Select all
+-------------29Sc33-----------21Sc36-----------12Sc44--------------+
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12Sg20-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------23Li39
| | | |
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| | Chart Of The Moment | |
| | | |
| | Event | |
| | | |
| | 12 Jul 2024 21:42:55 UT | |
| | |Mo 14Vi33 11°36'|
| | Nuneaton, United Kingdom | |
| | | |
|Pl 6Cp 2 25°02'| 52N31'29" 1W28' 6" | |
| | | |
| | UT 21:42:55 | |
0Aq52-----------+ +----------- 0Le52
| | RAMC 255°32' 5" | |
| | |Me 20Cn55 27°39'|
| Ep 19Aq13 | OE 23°26'19" | |
| | |Ve 6Cn25 22°33'|
|Sa 24Aq12 08°08'| SVP 4Pi55' 4" | |
|Ne 4Pi49 10°10'| | |
| | Sidereal Zodiac | |
| | |Su 25Ge56 14°31'|
| | Campanus Houses | |
| | | |
| | * * * * * | |
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|Er 0Ar24 28°56'| | |
23Ar39-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------12Ge20
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|Ma 29Ar22 07°14'| | | |
|Ur 1Ta 8 08°27'|Ju 15Ta39 09°35'| | |
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+-------------12Ta44-----------21Ta36-----------29Ta33--------------+
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pl Longitude Lat Speed RA Decl Azi Alt ML PVL Ang G
Mo 14Vi33'23" 0N 2 +11°48' 188°52' 3S47 248°53' +10°50' 3°57' 191°36' 73%
Su 25Ge56' 1" 0S 0 +57'13" 112°43' 21N48 325°23' - 8°56' 187°23' 164°31' 48%
Me 20Cn55'27" 0N42 + 1°21' 138°41' 16N42 301°14' - 2° 1' 181° 3' 177°39' 98% D
Ve 6Cn25'23" 1N15 + 1°14' 124° 2' 21N 2 315°25' - 5°15' 183°44' 172°33' 86% D
Ma 29Ar21'30" 0S50 +42'15" 52°17' 18N 5 23° 3' -16°34' 195°19' 37°14' 93% N
Ju 15Ta38'44" 0S42 +12'16" 69°15' 21N22 6° 5' -15°54' 195°49' 69°35' 23% b
Sa 24Aq12'12" 2S 2 - 1'18" 350°57' 6S 7 89°26' - 8° 8' 180° 5' 8° 8' 83% A
Ur 1Ta 8'25" 0S16 + 2'19" 53°58' 19N 3 21°11' -16° 0' 194°59' 38°27' 100% N
Ne 4Pi49'11" 1S17 - 0'20" 0°25' 1S13 78°49' - 9°58' 181°57' 10°10' 75%
Pl 6Cp 1'51" 3S13 - 1'24" 304° 6' 23S 2 136°17' + 3°26' 2°29' 355° 2' 93% A
Er 0Ar24'19" 10S50 + 0' 5" 27°33' 0S15 54°34' -24°15' 194°38' 28°56' 43%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class 1 Aspects Class 2 Aspects Class 3 Aspects
Mo oc Ma 0°12' 99% Mo oc Ur 1°35' 58% Mo sx Me 6°22' 26%
Mo tr Ju 1° 5' 98% Su sx Ma 3°25' 78% Ve sx Ma 7° 4' 10%
Mo op Ne 1°26' 96% M Su sx Ur 5°12' 49% Ve sq Er 6° 1' 33%
Su tr Sa 1°44' 94% Su sq Er 4°28' 62% Ma tr Pl 6°40' 19%
Me op Pl 2°37' 87% M Me sx Ju 5°17' 48% Sa sx Ur 6°56' 13%
Ve tr Ne 1°36' 95% Me oc Ne 1° 6' 79%
Ve op Pl 0°24'100% Ve sx Ur 5°17' 48%
Ma co Ur 1°13' 97% M Ma sx Sa 5° 9' 50%
Ju oc Er 0°14' 99% Ma sx Ne 5°28' 45%
Sa co Ne 2° 1' 92% M Ur sx Ne 3°41' 74%
Ne sx Pl 1°13' 97% Ur tr Pl 4°53' 55%
Pl sq Er 5°38' 41%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cosmic State
Mo Vi | oc Ma 0°12' tr Ju 1° 5' op Ne 1°26'M oc Ur 1°35'
| sx Me 6°22'
| Ve/Mc 33'd Ma/As 33'd Sa/Pl 34'i Ma/Ur 42'i
| Pl/Mc 44'i Ve/Sa 45'i Su/Ne 49'i
Su Ge | tr Sa 1°44' sx Ma 3°25' sq Er 4°28' sx Ur 5°12'
| As/Mc 18'd Ur/Mc 26'i Mo/Ve 27'i Ma/Mc 27'i
| Mo/Pl 38'i Ma/Sa 51'i
Me Cn F | Mo Vi+ Su Ge+
| op Pl 2°37'M oc Ne 1° 6' sx Ju 5°17' sx Mo 6°22'
| Su/Ju 8'i
Ve Cn F | Mo Vi-
| op Pl 0°24' tr Ne 1°36' sx Ur 5°17' sq Er 6° 1'
| sx Ma 7° 4'
| Mo/Ma 32'd
Ma Ar F | oc Mo 0°12' co Ur 1°13'M sx Su 3°25' sx Sa 5° 9'
| sx Ne 5°28' tr Pl 6°40' sx Ve 7° 4'
| Ve/Mc 21'i Pl/Mc 33'i Sa/Pl 46'i Ve/Sa 57'd
Ju Ta F | Su Ge-
| oc Er 0°14' tr Mo 1° 5' sx Me 5°17'
| Su/Pl 20'i Su/Ve 32'i
Sa Aq F | tr Su 1°44' co Ne 2° 1'M sx Ma 5° 9' sx Ur 6°56'
| Su/Me 46'i
Ur Ta F | co Ma 1°13'M sx Ne 3°41' oc Mo 1°35' tr Pl 4°53'
| sx Su 5°12' sx Ve 5°17' sx Sa 6°56'
| Su/Ne 46'd Ve/Sa 50'd
Ne Pi+ | Mo Vi-
| sx Pl 1°13' op Mo 1°26'M tr Ve 1°36' co Sa 2° 1'M
| oc Me 1° 6' sx Ur 3°41' sx Ma 5°28'
| Mo/Sa 26'i Su/Ju 58'i
Pl Cp F | op Ve 0°24' sx Ne 1°13' op Me 2°37'M tr Ur 4°53'
| sq Er 5°38' tr Ma 6°40'
| Mo/Ma 56'd
Er Ar | oc Ju 0°14' sq Su 4°28' sq Pl 5°38' sq Ve 6° 1'
| Su/Pl 35'd Su/Ve 46'i
As Aq | Su/Ne 29'i Ve/Sa 33'i Ma/Ur 37'i Sa/Pl 45'd
Mc Sc | Mo/Ma 21'i Ve/Pl 22'i
Angle | Me/Sa 34'M
Ze | Ma/Ur 37'M
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 3:13 pm
by Jim Eshelman
I think you don't have the most recent version. This was a bug until last night. (The bug was that any foreground or background planet was marked F in the Cosmic State report. It was a display bug.) - You should be running 0.5.6 and I think you're running 0.5.5.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 3:20 pm
by Sharla
Yes, I am running 0.5.5 I thought this was the newest version. How do I run 0.5.6 Is there a link?
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 3:32 pm
by Jim Eshelman
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:32 pm
by Mike V
Sharla wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:57 am
Note to Mike V (who will probably be looking in): Can you confirm that midpoints aren't coded to appear in return charts? (I'm guessing if that was never built, it's a non-trivial thing to enable, right? Different logic (since two different charts are involved).
I'm assuming this is a quote or post-edit gone wrong, and that this is Jim rather than Sharla asking (or perhaps there is some mind control involved?
) -
I can confirm that midpoints are not hooked up in return charts. Midpoint code is something I have not touched yet since working on the Time Matters codebase - it's very difficult to understand.
For that matter, it looks to me like the midpoint code for uniwheels is not complete, either. There's a syntax error in there which seems like it's been present for many of the 4.x versions, pretty much as far back as I was able to see, so I'd be interested to know how well others find that it works.
Like I said, I don't understand that part of the code very well
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2024 4:15 am
by Sharla
I can confirm that midpoints are not hooked up in return charts. Midpoint code is something I have not touched yet since working on the Time Matters codebase - it's very difficult to understand.
For that matter, it looks to me like the midpoint code for uniwheels is not complete, either. There's a syntax error in there which seems like it's been present for many of the 4.x versions, pretty much as far back as I was able to see, so I'd be interested to know how well others find that it works.
Like I said, I don't understand that part of the code very well
The method Jim shared with me to obtain midpoints for an SLR single wheel works nicely.
Also, I have some old horary charts I would like to share, I have been looking around the site for a place to post them. Originally, these were delineated using traditional astrology, but after examining them through a sidereal lens, they are much more clear and accurate.
Which sub-section should I use?
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2024 6:30 am
by Jim Eshelman
Mike V wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:32 pm
I'm assuming this is a quote or post-edit gone wrong, and that this is Jim rather than Sharla asking (or perhaps there is some mind control involved?
) -
Oops. Sharla, apologies. I overwrote your post instead of answering it above. (The buttons are next to each other and I do this about twice a year by accident.) Sorry
[I can confirm that midpoints are not hooked up in return charts. Midpoint code is something I have not touched yet since working on the Time Matters codebase - it's very difficult to understand.
To be clear, I wasn't asking you touch it now (because I expected that if this were
really easy, Mike N would have turned it on long ago). But it does remind me that I should add this to the non-priority wish list.
For that matter, it looks to me like the midpoint code for uniwheels is not complete, either. There's a syntax error in there which seems like it's been present for many of the 4.x versions, pretty much as far back as I was able to see, so I'd be interested to know how well others find that it works.
I had never (or, at least, not since it was fully launched) found a problem. Is this code created for TMSA or is it pulling some functions from the ephemeris?
I have no idea how Mikestar13 might have written that. (I can look at one of the old source code files and see if it makes sense to me. (Since I don't know Python per se, it's a shot in the dark that there might be something visible in rational code anyway.) I always leaned toward coding brute force first unless there was an obvious alternative, so I'd have probably started with making a big array of all midpoints, sort it, then run down the list as many times as needed; but, of course, you likely know smoother ways to do that.
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2024 6:33 am
by Jim Eshelman
Sharla wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2024 4:15 am
Also, I have some old horary charts I would like to share, I have been looking around the site for a place to post them. Originally, these were delineated using traditional astrology, but after examining them through a sidereal lens, they are much more clear and accurate.
Which sub-section should I use?
I guess for now use Many Things. (Thanks for asking.)
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 2:54 am
by Sharla
For the angle midpoints you've got [As] [Mc] and then [Angle} what angle is angle?
Re: How to display midpoints in Time Matters?
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 9:53 am
by Jim Eshelman
That was a display choice. The ones under [Angle] are mundane aspects (contacts in prime vertical longitude, using only foreground planets: these have proven themselves in ingresses but remain controversial and experimental in natals etc.). The ones specifically to the As and MC are the ecliptical midpoints you are used to seeing.