Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

Here are Jayne’s main methods for forecasting:

Transits
Secondary Progressions
Solar Arc Directions
Ascendant Arc Directions
Vertex Arc Directions
Declination Arcs

I was taken aback with the symbolism Vertex Arc Directions (VAD) projects for Kamala Harris on Election Day Nov 5 2024:

VAD Pluto 0,33 Lib; r Sun 0,33 Lib (Full Moon), so

I took a huge event in my life and calculated my VADs. Jayne says in his book when you know you have an accurate timed birth chart to pay close attention to very close aspects. On July 8th 1985 I was involved in takeover of a small company with a majority of stockholders. By far this was the worst destructive day in my entire life pertaining to specific horrible business details. This one event with the subsequent incidents which followed in the next 2-3 years in my life felt so “fated” it left psychological scars on my psyche.

My VAD Mars 24,Can41—r Saturn 24,Can01. I was born with a multi aspected Mars in my 8H ("other peoples's money"). Before the regular scheduled stockholders meeting July 8th 1985, the majority of stockholders met months before and voted to fire the President on July 8th 1985, so this VAD Mars conjunct my r Saturn was much closer to exact.

By what I understand most of Jayne's core astrological work is contained a a 4 year, monthly I think, publication of "Search" journels. I am trying to find a source for these old jornels for I feel Jayne's astrological work in most important.

After becoming very impressed with Jayne's work on the Vertex and his Vertex Vertical Arc with my Natal, I just spot checked Jayne's Ascendant Arc Direction (AAD) with Trump's chart for Election Day. Jayne contributes one of his main associates in research, Eleanor Hasseltine for discovering the Ascendant Arc Direcetion method for forcasting. Besides Trump's very benefic SLR for Mar Largo on the day of election, AAD for Trump on election day symbolizes outstanding winning symbolism, and it doesn't matter where Trump is located on election day for this AAD chart to be active.

Inside wheel Trump's Natal;outside wheel Trump's AAD. (calculated by solarfire).

https://ibb.co/cQMXhXy

Note AAD Sun partile conjunct his Natal Mars—excellent symbolism for “leadership positions, vocational success, extraordinary achievements.” But IMO more importantly AAD Jupiter partile conjunct his Natal Moon.

Bradley says this about Moon-Jupiter combos:

A candidate for public office can hardly expect election if Moon-Jupiter configurations are lacking...

This will be a superb test for Jayne's AAD method of Directions.

Speaking of location...

There's a really important way that location matters. If you use a relocated natal, the progressed Vertex will be a different distance ahead of natal Vertex, meaning that ALL FACTORS - including planets - direct a different amount. IF Vertex arc is valid and IF it isn't limited to the birthplace chart (why would it be? the progressions on which it's based are location-sensitive), then there would be two separate concurrent sets of planets directing at different rates.

Did Charles address this?

This isn't a factor for solar arcs because progressed Sun move the same amount no matter where you are.

I understand where you are coming from Jim. The one Jayne book I am studying does not address much other than his new methodology (which is scant statements) on Progressions and Directions, and I really don’t understand a-lot what he is discussing, only that Solar Fire implements Jayne’s new type of Directions, and I can experiment with my Natal. As usual I am in complete experimental stage with a new methodology trying to understand and discover new things which may work, or not. I have just ordered another Jayne book hoping he has a lot of example charts with his new Arc Directions with much more detailed discussions, I will post (quote him) with my learning curve with this new book. The only thing I think I know for now is I feel Jayne was onto something with everything I have read about his Vertex methodology/opinions, based on my Natal Chart—but only one chart. It appears to me Jayne was a detailed astrological researcher pertaining to pure natural mathematical astronomy applied to astrology, but only someone with your type of astronomical/mathematical mind would understand where Jayne was coming from.

I do know this: In the other book I just ordered Jayne devotes an entire section to the branch of "locality" charts, so maybe he will explain more of his research/details pertaining to locality with his new methodology of Directions/Progressions. If so, get ready for a lot of questions.

Charles was a Virgo-Aries. He was SOOOO Virgo-Aries. I used to get some brief traction with Tropical astrologers who knew him or at least had attended his talks by saying, "Jayne is a Virgo-Aries. Obviously fits, yes? No way he's a Libra-Taurus."

Some, though, would say, "But he's so nice." Honestly, though, that wasn't the first word most people thought of after talking with Charles.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2024 10:43 am Charles was a Virgo-Aries. He was SOOOO Virgo-Aries. I used to get some brief traction with Tropical astrologers who knew him or at least had attended his talks by saying, "Jayne is a Virgo-Aries. Obviously fits, yes? No way he's a Libra-Taurus."

Some, though, would say, "But he's so nice." Honestly, though, that wasn't the first word most people thought of after talking with Charles.

This made me chuckle, Those moon signs of ours do seem to outshine the Sun in regards to how others experience us…..

I already have enough solid proof with my Natal that Jayne’s original new Direction’s methods were spot-on. For my new solar year I will be taking a deep plunge down Jayne’s rabbit hole and will be reporting on this Topic Tread my discoveries. I ask any other member on this forum to join in with any of their possible discoveries with Jayne’s methods with their Natal’s. Thanks

The first charts I pulled from my files to check Jayne’s “fated” Directed Vertex Arcs were John & Jackie Kennedy Natals for that terrible “fated” day of Nov 22 1963. The symbolism will blow your mind. It’s hard for me to believe, I’ve got to double check for mistakes, but have errans to do--later.

Steve,
I'm not familiar with this person or his writing, and I see he doesnt use lunar or solar returns (and assuming not Mars, Jupiter ect as well) for making his predictions, which I'm assuming are natal predictions and not mundane event predictions, nor does he use ingresses (which I do feel have relevance in natal progressions).
Can you please be so kind as to paraphrase just what this vertex arc, and directional arc actually are and how it is calculated, because I just cant seem to understand what is being calculated and how.
I'd love to be able to explore my AA rated birthtime with my aspects and placement with my diaries and calendars of events to see how things hash out.

V, I am in the early processes of learning-- so I don’t know for sure exactly how Jayne exactly derives his Vertex Arc. I think it involves the distance between the Natal Vertex and the Secondary Progressed Vertex, and this distance arc is added to every factor in the Natal. All I have really done is take Solarfire and select “Vertex Arc Directed” under the Window “Chart Type to Generate” and looked at a few events in wife’s/my life with astounding results, as well as for John/Jackie’s Kennedy’s tragic event for Nov 22 1963. As soon I can I will try to quote Jayne’s exact words for the math involved in this Vertex Arc for Directions. The book I am studying does not go into a lot of mathematical details or examples. Hopefully the second book which should arrive next week will offer more details.

Oh ok Steve, thank you. Yes please do post what is explained in the book. I'm curious if the examples in the book/charts explored are Sidereal Astrology or Tropical? I have tried reading some books on astrology but for the most part they only use Tropical and house stuff, which we know are not useful much and often misleading and perpetuating false science which I have no interest in.

Confirming (based k what I previously knew plus some tests in Solar Fire last week)'

Yes, Vertex Arc is calculated but first calculating a secondary progression presuming thr Naibod in RA rate is correct for progressed angles. Then subtract natal Vx from progressed Vx and add the result to every point in the chart.

At first I thought that the east end of this axis (anti-vertex) was the significant one, but directing by it produced no results, whereas true direction of the (western) Vertex did produce results. Johndro did much work with this angle, terming the Anti-vertex the electrical Ascendant (and the conventional Ascendant, the magnetic Ascendant). But in a letter to me shortly before his death he concurred with me that by oblique ascension the western or Vertex end was the significant one. I am more concerned here with the use of the directed Vertex to obtain the third or vertical arc than I am with its static meaning and function. The distance from the natal or radical Vertex to the directed Vertex is the vertical arc. But again, if the natal time is inaccurate the length of the vertical arc will be erroneous, the amount of error depending on the time deviation from true time and also on whether the Vertex is, like the Ascendant, in a sign of short or long ascension. A rapidly moving vertical or Ascendant arc (Ascendant or Vertex in a sign of long ascension) will be more potent than solar arc. Of course the Vertex may never be moved by solar or Ascendant arc but should be directed by vertical arc. The vertical arc was discovered by me. Charles A. Jayne “Progressions and Directions” pg. 14,15,16

• I think Jayne explains all of his discovered different arc directions---but not sure because the explanations are not within my mental capacity to understand. Obviously Jayne was an astronomical genius when it came to understanding certain astrological methodologies. I think he stated Declination Arcs were very important but again over my mental capacity to understand where he is coming from. All I really know how to do is take Solarfire and if I see a Jayne methodology functioned in Solarfire---then I can calculate Jayne’s discoveries with my chart files and do have the mental capacity to understand if the planetary symbolism is accurate.

For what it may be worth in my early research using Jayne’s Forecasting methods:

https://www.uraniatrust.org/astrology/d ... orecasting

I have finished reading Jayne’s other book “The Best of Charles Jayne.” Here is what impresses me the most about Jayne’s work. I do believe he originally (the best I can tell) discovered 3 new arc directions besides Solar Arc directions that are very important to analyze with major events in one’s life. I have tested two of these arc direction with my case files and am impressed with their results. The two are: Vertex Arc directions with what Jayne labeled Vertical arc directions, and the other Ascendant Arc directions. Jayne and his close research team discovered another arc direction pertaining to “Declination Arc directions which he says were relied upon very heavily with their incredible amount of rectification work they did with several hundred charts. As far as I can tell Solarfire does not have a function for Jayne’s Declination Arcs with charts, but does have a chart type to select for Vertex & Ascendant Arc directions which arc directions I will be adding to my tool bag. I am guessing only a very few astrologers in Jayne’s time were aware/tested Jayne’s new arc directions because of the amount of mathematical savvy needed to compute the necessary arc directional charts. But with astrological programs today it is so easy to test Jayne’s newly discovered arc directions besides the standard Solar Arc directions. Anyway, I am most impressed with Jayne’s new arc directions which I have tested with SolarFire and a few of my chart files, but still in an early testing/research mode. I encourage anyone who has the astrological program for Jayne’s arc directions to test and experiment with their own chart files.

Correct, SF doesn't have Declination Arc. I think I know a way to fake it, but I haven't tried it in practice.

Steve, I tried Asc and Vx arc for turning-point dates in my life and have not been impressed. Mostly, there is nothing at all. They're easy to see in SF: Take a Dynamic Biwheel, pick the chart type of the outer wheel as (say) Vertex Arc Directions, and switch from a wheel to a 90° dial (especially the custom dials I created that show the longitudes also). Checking for exact 90° aspects of 10 planets and two major angles (partile orbs). I've given locations below but I stayed with birthplace chart for all calculations.

December 9, 1987, 5:15 PM PST, Santa Ana, CA
d Saturn sq r Sun 20' [entirely wrong and unfitting symbolism unless you abstract it to a vaguer "destiny event"]

Switching to Ascendant arc:
d MC op r Mars 4'
d Asc co r Neptune 55'
d Jupiter-Pluto = r Venus-Pluto with orbs 12'-41'
This one isn't as obviously ill-fitting and it certainly seems climactic. (I got enormous energy from it at least.) But it's too complicated for me to give a clear yay-nay.

November 19, 1975, 2:00 AM, West Hollywood, CA
Though there was a negative event earlier in the day, the life turning point was 100% positive and not fitting the following directions:
d Moon op r Saturn 43'
d Saturn op r MC 1'

Switching to Ascendant arc:
d Mars sq r Mercury 25'
d Saturn co r Venus 4', sq r Pluto 9'
Arguably fitting if you really stretch things, e.g., the minor event earlier in the day was Mars to Mercury although the life-altering event was not. These are far too malefic for a fundamentally positive, happy event.

May 27, 2019, 6:01:44 PM PDT, San Jacinto, CA
I don't think this describes my wedding at all:
d Uranus co r Saturn 27'
d Jupiter co r Saturn 51'

Switching to Asc arc, I get at least one clear, fitting hit:
d Jupiter op r Moon 55'


Another extraordinarily happy life-changing event had only these Asc Arc aspects:
d Asc co r Saturn 18'
d Saturn sq r Moon 8'

I must at least admit that the frequency (one might say reliability!) with which Saturn is involved in exact luminary and angle contacts for a stream of happy, positive events is pretty impressive. Unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite of what I would expect in astrological symbolism for the events.


It's hard for me to be impressed with these.

I just checked my idea about how to test Declination Arc in Solar Fire. It doesn't work. Sorry.

But that did have me thinking about another clever idea Charle had. I don't think it's useful because I think the thing it measures isn't valid. Nonetheless, it might be worth mentioning here.\

The aspect in question is the parallel - two planets with the same declination. (If they have the same declination but one is N and the other S, it's a contra-0parallel.) I don't think these are valid at all. (Some people I respect disagree with me.) Specifically, when I find charts with a parallel or contra-parallel aspect and no other accepted aspect between the two planets, the parallel aspect doesn't seem to fit the person.

Nonetheless, it is worth knowing how to calculate them so that one can investigate the matter for oneself. Parallels are usually given a 1° orb in declination. One problem, though, is that all planets change declination quickly near the equinoxes (around 5° Virgo-Pisces) and change it very slowly around the solstices (around 5° Gemini-Sagittarius). This causes planet declinations often to pile up around 23° N or S and suddenly give a large number of parallels if you stick to a 1° orb in declination.

Charles Jayne innovatively considered that maybe the orb isn't the same at all points of the circle. He insightfully realized that an easy way to measure this is to list each planet or point as the longitude Sun would have at the same declination. This spreads out the pile-ups near the solstices and tightens the wider spread near the equinoxes.

Solar Fire calculates this on the Harmonics menu as "Longitude Equiv (Decl)." You can calculate a chart with this option and then read parallels and contra-parallels by whether the Equiv planets are within about 5° of conjunction or opposition. (The orbs of the parallel feel about the same as the orbs at that longitude spread.)

For example, my wife doesn't have a Moon-Uranus conjunction - they're almost 9° apart. But Moon's declination is 11N20 and Uranus' declination is 11N42 so they seem to have a parallel aspect. The Equiv chart catches this by giving their longitudes as 0°23' Virgo and 29°20' Leo, respectively, meaning that a parallel aspect (if valid) would be about as strong as a 1°03' conjunction.

Similarly, though her Venus-Neptune are in exact opposition, Mercury is not aspecting them; except it is in a parallel and contra-parallel pattern:

Venus 19°28' Ari - Dec 14N31 - Equiv 9°45' Tau
Neptune 19°25' Lib - Dec 14S17 - Equiv 9°02' Tau
Mercury 27°41' Ari - Dec 14N44 - Equiv 8°03' Sco

An example of how this spreads out planets piled at extreme declination: You might think my Venus and Mars are in very close parallel with Venus at declination 24S54 and Mars 24S16, 0°38' apart in declination. But because they are piled up near a solstice, the Equiv chart gives Venus 10°24' Sagittarius and Mars 15°13' Sagittarius: Their aspect (by this theory) is only as strong as a 4°49' wide conjunction.

I don't think there is anything to parallels, but this at least shows the kind of convenient cleverness of Jayne's mind.

Jim wrote:

It's hard for me to be impressed with these.

Indeed, I understand Jim. Calculate Jayne’s Vertex arc directions for John & Jackie Kennedy’s fateful day Nov 22 1963 with their birthplace charts and offer your opinion. BTW, Jayne insisted that directions should mainly be analyzed/tested with the most malefic event(s) in a native’s life, which he said should be at least one in the life of a native.
Jim wrote:

The aspect in question is the parallel - two planets with the same declination. (If they have the same declination but one is N and the other S, it's a contra-0parallel.) I don't think these are valid at all. (Some people I respect disagree with me.) Specifically, when I find charts with a parallel or contra-parallel aspect and no other accepted aspect between the two planets, the parallel aspect doesn't seem to fit the person.

I hear you Jim. I have never looked at parallel/co-parallel aspects, probably because I read somewhere you believed they don’t work . Let me try and go back and take notes from Jayne’s book about declination arcs—he uses a technical language that I simply don’t understand (never seen before) only for Declination Arcs.

In our opinion, based on a great deal of testing and practical experience, the six modes of direction in this series---the three arcs in longitude (Solar, Vertex & Ascendant), and the three arcs in declination—together comprise astrology’s most valuable timing technique. Charles Jayne, pg 32, “Progressions and Directions".

If anyone happens to know of an astrological program which will compute for a Natal Chart the Declination Arcs for Solar, Vertex, & Ascendant please let me know, thanks.

In reflecting on this technique being best exemplified in negative events in our lives, I thought about in my youth how absolutely devastating it was to me that John Lennon was assassinated. That was such an earth shattering event for me, to think a beautiful man espousing peace and love could be murdered….mind blowing sadness for me. So much more so then the JFK, most likely because I didn’t experience that live.
I am curious how my chart with this technique fairs, I can’t seem to grok what information this technique is reflecting in our psyche and persona/character. If you’d like to run this as an example and learning model be my guest. I also would be curious about John Lennons assassination event with this technique, as I feel this event speaks loudly about our world, more so even then JFKs.

SteveS wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:35 pm Calculate Jayne’s Vertex arc directions for John & Jackie Kennedy’s fateful day Nov 22 1963 with their birthplace charts and offer your opinion.

Fair enough. Vertex Arc for JFK had:

d Sun co r Saturn 0°01'
d Saturn sq r Venus 0°15'
d Pluto sq r Jupiter 0°27'
d Saturn co r Moon 0°43'

This is indeed a terrible convergence of aspects, with the exact Sun-Saturn being enough to give it a serious look. Strangely non-violent, though, and strangely focused on his own emotional loss (which I suspect was not the case).

Jackie's Vertex Arc directions are also impressively bad and grievous:

d Sun co r Neptune 0°00'
d Neptune sq r Saturn 0°28'
d MC sq r Saturn 0°54'

So yes, these two look quite good (er, bad).

BTW, Jayne insisted that directions should mainly be analyzed/tested with the most malefic event(s) in a native’s life, which he said should be at least one in the life of a native.

This is quite strange. While bad events usually show better (in simpler ways) than good events, I don't know of another technique that simply won't show good events. Every major life-shifting event in my life has been a good event (though I have had a few broadly difficult times). I suppose I could take the events of mid-December 2014 that were emotionally difficult. Vertex Arc gives Sun 0°40' from square my Neptune but no other aspects. Or when I broke my heel in mid-September 1997 and was laid up for six months: That had the opposite transit, d Neptune sq r Sun 0°54'. Or the events that led to my formal split from a mate after 21 years together on 11/19/96 that bizarrely had d Jupiter-Uranus conjunct my Sun (Uranus-Sun alone could be disruptive but the whole of this configuration is way too positive).

A couple of these, showing Neptune states of mind, are OK but not anything I'd use to argue for the validity of a system; and neither of those had the kind of precision that showed in the Kennedy examples (my Sun-Neptune and Neptune-Sun were partile but widely so). And the string of really big deal positive events had that unfitting run of close Saturn aspects that make no sense at all.

It had never occurred to me that my life had been so full of good events and short on bad ones. I'll have to take a few more famous ones.

Veronica wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 5:50 am In reflecting on this technique being best exemplified in negative events in our lives, I thought about in my youth how absolutely devastating it was to me that John Lennon was assassinated. That was such an earth shattering event for me... I am curious how my chart with this technique fairs...

John Lennon was murdered December 8, 1980 at 10:50 PM in New York City. Most of us heard about it the next morning. You had no Vertex Arc conjunctions, oppositions, or squares to your natal chart within 1°. Using the other Jayne method being studied, Ascendant Arc, there are also no contacts.

I have a collection of 75 charts with violent accidents or deaths. I'll run through some (maybe all) of these testing Vertex Arc, which is supposed to show negative events best. My rule will be to list all partile conjunctions, oppositions, and squares involving the ten established planets and two major angles. (I enter this presuming that the closest aspects should define the event, but this may not turn out to be true.)

Abraham Lincoln: murdered (B data)
d Pluto op r Mars 7'
d Mars co r MC 11'
d Mars co r Neptune 34'
d Uranus sq r Jupiter 39'
+3 Excellent, especially if we focus on the closest aspects first.

Adolf Hitler: fall of Berlin, likely suicide (AA data)
d Pluto co r Mercury 8'
d Mars op r Moon 38'
d Venus op r Jupiter 41'
d Venus op r Moon 56'
0 Mixed. Hard to judge since the malefic aspect is closer than the two benefic ones, though they're all about the same orb. The only super-close contact is impactful but, by itself, doesn't describe the event. Mixed indications at best.

Benito Mussolini: savagely murdered (AA data)
d Saturn co r Venus 3'
d MC sq r Jupiter 10'
d Uranus sq r Mercury 44'
d Sun co r Uranus 55'
-1 Poor. Though the closest aspect is malefic, it doesn't describe this specific event; and the MC-Jupiter, nearly as close, is entirely wrong.

Crown Prince Rudolph: bloody double suicide (AA data)
d Jupiter sq r Venus 6'
d Saturn co r Sun 15'
d Pluto co r Asc 20'
d Uranus sq r Mercury 31'
+3 Excellent! (The Jupiter-Venus is quite fitting since this was a double suicide with his mistress, presumably so they could die together.)

Princess Diana: death in car accident (A data)
d Neptune sq r Pluto 2'
d Saturn co r Moon 10'
d Pluto sq r Mercury 14'
d Saturn sq r Venus 48'
d Jupiter op Mars 50'
+2 Great. Saturn-Moon tells the primary tale. Saturn-Venus perhaps means this was an unfortunate ending to a romance. Pluto-Mercury blends themes of automobile and paparazzi. The Jupiter-Mars is so wide it's perhaps not a factor, but in any case shows the lifestyle he'd been living. The exact Neptune-Pluto, as usual, is difficult to read.

George Lincoln Rockwell: murdered (AA data)
d Saturn op r Mercury 6'
d Jupiter op r Asc 26'
-2 Bad. The first aspect isn't specific to the event, and the Jupiter direction is entirely wrong.

George Moscone: murdered (AA data)
d Asc op r Jupiter 2'
d Sun op r Pluto 6'
d Asc sq r Moon 13'
-2 Bad. Despite the Sun-Pluto, the Asc to Jupiter is precise and entirely wrong.

Harvey Milk: murdered (AA data)
d Mars co r Mercury 5'
d Pluto op r Asc 36'
+2 Good! Simple and clear.

Jack Parsons: died in fiery explosion (AA data)
d Sun co r Mars 6'
d Mercury co r Venus 7'
+2 Good. The Mercury-Venus is weird, but the Sun conjunct natal Mars 0°06' describes the event under any of the competing theories of exactly what happened.

James Garfield: murdered (A data)
(He died weeks later. This is for the date he was shot.)
d Moon op r Jupiter 2'
d Jupiter sq r Uranus 11'
d Venus sq r Pluto 37'
-2 Bad. At best, Jupiter-Uranus shows political differences (that were indeed behind this), but the Moon-Jupiter is so exact and so bad as to make a complete fail. This is nearly -3.

Indira Gandhi: murdered (A data)
d Uranus sq r Jupiter 1'
d Asc op r Mars 13'
d MC co r Mercury 17'
+2 Good.

John Lennon: murdered (A data)
d Venus sq r MC 20'
-2 Bad. Nearly a -3 (but I don't give+3 or -3 when only a single factor is involved).

Malcolm X: murdered (AA data)
d Pluto sq r Saturn 2'
d Moon co r Sun 3'
d Uranus sq r Jupiter 8'
d Jupiter op r Neptune 12'
d Asc sq r Mercury 42'
d Mars sq r Mercury 52'
+1 OK. This is hard to rate. The closest aspect is entirely fitting. The second (nearly as close) shows intense spotlight and drawing attention which, OK, I'll go with. After that are two that are ideological, which sets the background. Nothing, though, shows the outright violence and other direct elements. I'll give it a +1 for the first two aspects (i.e., on balance it probably weighs more correct than incorrect).

Martin Luther King Jr.: murdered (B data)
d Mars co r Pluto 27'
d Pluto sq r Asc 59'
+1 or +2 (Good). If his "12:00 noon" reported time is a few minutes late, the Pluto direction is as good as it gets, though for 12:00 it is barely present. Mars-Pluto is good enough for a point, though.

Mahatma Gandhi: murdered (C data)
d Neptune co r Pluto 16'
d Uranus sq r Jupiter 29'
d Uranus co r Moon 43'
d Neptune op r Venus 57'
0 Neutral. Neptune-Pluto is always had to read. The others may be mostly positive or, at least, don't lean bad. Hard to rate for him specifically (rather than as a mundane event for the public). I'm not sure I can even give a point for Neptune-Pluto. At best, it's not a stunning argument for the system.

Nicole Brown Simpson: murdered (AA data)
d Asc sq r Saturn 9'
d Saturn sq r Neptune 14'
+2 Good. (Possibly a +3 but I'd like to see more overt violence. But this is good!)

Robert F. Kennedy: murdered (A data)
d Saturn co r Mercury 24'
0 Neutral. Though the one aspect is malefic, it isn't really descriptive of the event.

William McKinley: murdered (A data)
0 Neutral. Nothing at all. Though I'm tempted to rate it negatively (since something should have appeared), "no aspect" is technically neutral.

Sharon Tate: murdered (AA data)
t Moon co r Neptune 50'
t Jupiter co r Pluto 52'
d Neptune sq r Asc 56'
+1 OK. It barely deserves even a +1: Everything is wide, barely present, and barely fits the event of being murdered by the Manson gang.

Abigail Folger: murdered (AA data)
d Uranus op r Moon 0'
d Mars sq r Mercury 35'
+1 OK. Gets a point because the Uranus-Moon is 0°00' orb and, if not everything we might want, is at least an acceptable expression of the event (especially tipped slightly by the Mars-Mercury, which is present in a few notorious murder events).

Franklin D. Roosevelt: died of brain aneurism (AA data)
d MC sq r Moon 41'
0 Neutral. Perhaps this death from natural causes isn't a strong enough event for this method?

Warren G. Harding: died of fever illness (A data)
d Mars co r Jupiter 4'
d Pluto op r Jupiter 17'
d Jupiter sq r Mars 54'
d MC co r Saturn 59'
+1 Good. Good enough for a point. If the birthtime should be a couple of minutes earlier, the MC-Saturn would be a clear standout.

Gianni Versace: murdered (AA data)
d Pluto co r Mars 26'
d Saturn op r Moon 38'
d Neptune co r Jupiter 38'
d Jupiter op r Uranus 48'
+2 Great (especially with focus on the closest aspects).

Lee Harvey Oswald: murdered, perhaps after murdering (A data)
d Saturn op r Mercury 6'
d Moon sq r Saturn 7'
d Venus op r Uranus 36'
d Neptune sq r Asc 37'
d Saturn sq r Mars 38'
+3 Excellent!

Margaret Eden: killed hit by train (A data)
d MC do r Sun 8'
d Pluto co r Mercury 12'
d MC co r Neptune 34'
d Venus co r Sun 39'
d Pluto sq r Mars 48'
d Asc sq r Jupiter 59'
+2 Great. Not perfect, though. The Asc-Jupiter is barely in orb and the slightest few seconds of error in the birth time would make it go; but Venus to Sun makes it imperfect. The rest is quite good.

Anne Heche: died in exploding car (AA data)
d Neptune op r MC 6'
+1. I still think this was the final result of her psychological deterioration (which would make it +2), but the official story is simply that she simply lost control of the vehicle. This one direction is strong, close, and pure enough for a point and yet the whole is a little thing for so big and noisy an event.

Cass Eliot: died from heart disease (A data)
d Neptune co r Mercury 6'
d Saturn co r Jupiter 7'
d Venus op r Saturn 29'
0 Neutral. None of these aspects describes the event.

Elvis Presley: died from various body failures (A data)
d Jupiter sq r Neptune 39'
d Venus co r Saturn 40'
-1 Poor. Neither describes the event. I took away a point because Jupiter-Neptune would imply he was at a peak in performance and, in fact, he had been so badly deteriorating that he was barely functional and was losing audiences.

Ernest Hemingway: suicide (A data)
d Saturn sq r Venus 2'
d Mercury sq r Mars 18'
d Pluto sq r Venus 37'
+2 Great. Not classic suicide aspects, but all representative of his reported state of mind. I would take these as setup for the event, not the triggering of the event.

James Dean: died from auto accident (AA data)
d Uranus sq r Mars 52'
+1 OK. The one aspect is wide and yet exactly right. If his recorded even-hour birth should be a even a minute or two later, Asc also would have joined Uranus. Good enough for a point.

Janis Joplin: death from OD (AA data)
d Pluto op r Asc 8'
d Saturn op r Mars 12'
d Moon op r Sun 43'
+2 Great. One could argue it for +3, but I think it is a little too "plain vanilla for accident" for that.

Jimi Hendrix: death from OD (AA data)
d Mercury co r Asc 25'
d Mars op r Saturn 34'
d Uranus op r Asc 53'
d Saturn sq r Neptune 59'
+2 Great. Though I'd like closer orbs, the symbolism is good.

John Belushi: death from OD (AA data)
d MC sq r Mercury 43'
0 Neutral. Nothing here to see.

Kurt Cobain: violent suicide (AA data)
d Mars sq r Uranus 36'
d Mars op r MC 5'
+2 Great. Fits the details (even though this isn't usually a suicidal aspect).

Lenny Bruce: death from OD (AA data)
d Neptune sq r Asc 6'
d MC co r Saturn 7'
d Pluto op r Saturn 25'
d Jupiter sq r Saturn 39'
d Uranus op r Sun 42'
+3 Excellent.

Marilyn Monroe: death from OD (AA data)
d Venus co r Sun 28'
-2 Bad.

Michael Jackson: death from OD (AA data)
d Uranus sq r Saturn 54'
d Neptune sq r Sun 59'
+1 OK. I'm tempted not to give this a point since the aspects are so wide (59' separating). But, having defined the rules of which aspects to consider, Neptune-Sun warrants a point.

Prince: death from OD (AA data)
d Jupiter op r Mercury 22'
-2 Bad.

Robin Williams: suicide dementia-related (AA data)
d Asc sq r Saturn 39'
+2. The contact is exact enough (down to the strangulation) and perhaps the birth time was a minute or two earlier (though narrowly recorded as 1:34 PM). I'd prefer a closer orb, but the single aspect is a correct one.

Sylvia Plath: suicide (B data)
d Asc op r Venus 7'
d Mercury sq r Jupiter 10'
d MC s r Moon 21'
d Mars co r Jupiter 23'
d Sun sq r Asc 48'
-3 Irremediably bad.

Vincent van Gogh: likely suicide (AA data)
d Mars co r Mercury 0'
d Moon op r Asc 57'
+1 Good. The 0°00' aspect describes the gunshot wound from which he died. Not much to work with here, but at least it earns a point.

Virginia Woolf: suicide (A data)
d Moon co r Asc 33'
d Mars sq r Neptune 42'
d Asc sq r Moon 50'
+2. Aspects are fitting though orbs are wider than I'd like.

James Forrestal: suicide (C data)
d Venus sq r Sun 6'
d Uranus sq r Moon 23'
-2 Bad.

Beatrice Cenci: executed (B data)
d Neptune op r Uranus 4'
d Mars sq r Mercury 36'
+1. Nothing is very precise in meaning, but the general psychological tone is shown. (Should this technique show psychological tone? Or only decisive events?)

Joan of Arc: executed (B data)
d Pluto co r Neptune 1'
d Saturn sq r Moon 12'
d Moon co r Mercury 19'
d Mercury co r Sun 41'
d MC op r Jupiter 26'
d Sun co r Uranus 58'
+2 Great, replying especially on the closest orbs. (The MC-Jupiter could be a fiction, since the birth time could be a few minutes off.)

Karen Silkwood: died, perhaps murdered (AA data)
d Uranus co r Saturn 28'
d Uranus sq r Moon 28' [Ur = Mo/Sa 0']
d Uranus sq r Asc 45'
d Mercury sq r Mars 59'
+2 Great.

King Louis XVI: executed (A data)
d Sun co r Moon 5'
d Jupiter sq r Neptune 5'
d Mercury co r Moon 13'
d Mars sq r Sun 26'
d Mars sq r Jupiter 29' [Ma = Su/Ju 2']
d Sun sq r Neptune 50'
d Venus op r MC 57'
+2 Great.

Marie Antoinette: executed (A data)
0 Neutral. No aspects.

Mata Hari: executed (AA data)
d Venus co r Mars 18'
d Moon sq Venus 48'
-2 Bad. This looks like they let her go! (They didn't.)

King Ludwig II: drowned, possible suicide (AA data)
d Pluto sq r Neptune 11'
d Pluto op r Mars 19'
d Pluto sq r MC 21'
d Asc sq r Pluto 37
+3 Excellent. (Wow!)

Natalie Wood: drowned, some mystery (AA data)
d Jupiter sq r Mars 14'
d Neptune op r Uranus 50'
-1 Poor. The closest aspect would have shown physical excellence and likely survival. Meanwhile, nothing decisively shows the event (perhaps Ne-Ur is the asphyxiation of drowning, but it's also quite wide).

Whitney Houston: death drowning in her tub (AA data)
d Pluto op r Moon 21'
d Mercury op r Moon 26'
d Venus sq r Asc 45'
+1 Good. The Pluto-Moon makes the case. Venus-Asc costs it a point.

Buddy Holly: death in plane crash (A data)
d Mercury sq r Pluto 7'
d Asc op r Pluto 28'
+3 Excellent. Precisely right (and close).

Richie Valens: death in plane crash (AA data)
d Saturn co r Mercury 2'
d Uranus op r MC 7'
d Jupiter op r MC 50'
+2 Great. The closest aspects are unquestionably accurate. the Jupiter direction is nearly faded.

Big Bopper: death in plane crash (AA data)
d Saturn sq r Mercury 39'
+2 Great. Orb is wide but you can't complain about the symbolism.

John Denver: death in plane crash (AA data)
d Mars op r Sun 1'
d Neptune sq r Pluto 3'
d Uranus op r Sun9'
+2 Great. Ma/Ur = Su is exactly right. (Ne-Pl is obscure but probably related to fogged perceptions.)

Patsy Cline: death in plane crash (AA data)
0 Neutral. No contacts.

John F. Kennedy Jr.: death in plane crash (A data)
(The Vx Arc was within 4' of being exactly 90°. This means everything aspected itself. I'm going to disqualify this one because the conditions mean that several right aspects necessarily are cancelled by several wrong one.)

Ricky Nelson: death in plane crash (AA data)
d Mercury co r Pluto 1'
d Saturn sq r Mercury 3'
d Pluto op r Jupiter 10'
+3 Excellent. If the first two don't say "Don't fly your plane today," I don't know what would!

Christa McAuliffe: death in space shuttle explosion (B data)
d MC op r Saturn 22'
d Mercury sq r Venus 51'
+2 Great. Though I don't think "pleasant flight" (Mercury-Venus) is at all fitting, the MC-Saturn is dead-on and reasonably close.

Edward White: died in Apollo 1 flash fire (B data)
d Mars sq r Venus 31'
d Asc sq r Neptune 38'
d Mars co r Moon 39'
+3 Excellent symbolism. (However, the orbs did not help on timing.)

Roger Chaffee: died in Apollo 1 flash fire
d MC sq r Moon 47'
0 Neutral. Nothing toward the event.

Virgil Grisson: died in Apollo 1 flash fire (A data)
d Uranus sq r Neptune 41'
d Jupiter sq r MC 50'
-2 Bad. Though the Jupiter-MC is wide, nothing is close (and nothing here describes the event).

George Wallace: non-fatally shot, disabled (A data)
d Neptune op r MC 5'
d Mars sq r Pluto 22'
d Uranus sq r Jupiter 22'
+2 Great. The first two show the event, the last likely shows him surviving

Larry Flynt: non-fatally shot, disabled (AA data)
d Jupiter co r Moon 29'
d Uranus co r Asc 32'
d Neptune co r Mercury 47'
-1 Poor. The closest aspect is wrong. The second aspect could be descriptive, and the widest is OK, but there is no violence here so Jupiter can't even be taken to show he survived.

Gloria Estefan: injured in bus accident (A data)
d Mercury co r Venus 28'
d Uranus co r Pluto 44'
-1 Poor. I'd have given a point for the neutral-but-dramatic Uranus-Pluto, but I won't rate a vehicular accident positively for a Mercury-Venus combination.

Sonny Bono: died in ski accident (AA data)
d Saturn op r Jupiter 34'
0 Neutral. I might give this a +1 as "luck ran out"; but really the aspect doesn't speak to the event at all.

Marion DeSio: broke three ankle bones (AA data)
d Jupiter co r Mercury 19'
d Uranus op r Jupiter 59'
-2 Bad.

Even without a formal tally, it's clear that the above events produced some remarkably brilliant examples - but also some real stinkers - a lot of "ho hum" and a few "this is terrible symbolism." Without actually counting the scores, I come away from the last couple of hours of work thinking (1) to my surprise there seems to be something to do this and (2) it is highly unreliable, either missing or mischaracterizing too many events. And it's a real limitation if we can only count on it for negative events. (All of my spectacular positive events showed as terrible, malefic events.)

From this first impression, I've left with the idea that this is a minor method (perhaps like tertiaries) that sorta kinda works - and scores aces when it does! - but that I wouldn't rely on.

Before finalizing that view, though, I should tally the scores. I'll give two extra +3 scores for the Jack and Jackie examples earlier. Here's what we get with the usual Excellent, Great, Good, Neutral or Mixed, Poor, Bad, Terrible ratings.

+3: * * * * * * * * * * (10)
+2: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * (21)
+1: * * * * * * * * * * * (11)
00: * * * * * * * * * * * (11)
-1: * * * * * (5)
-2: * * * * * * * * * * (10)
-3: *(1)

It's clear at a glance that the positive scores outweigh the negative scores. That there are so many +3 scores and a strong run of +2 (what we should normally expect from a valid, reliable system) speaks well. 45% of the examples had a score of +2 or higher.

I add +1 more gingerly since I gave many of them the benefit of the doubt (to compensate for my negative expectations). But, since I gave the score, I should count it: 62% (nearly two-thirds) of the examples had a +1 or higher (defined as "on balance, this chart is more correct than incorrect - more right than wrong").

But 62% isn't a very high score. Bradley reported that transits alone account for about 70% of major events, and progressions alone for about the same. This technique did not do that well. About four out of ten charts scored worse than "more right than wrong on balance." One-fourth of the examples were more wrong than right. The -2 scores are as common as the +3 examples.

So... unless some other block of evidence says otherwise... I'm inclined to two opinions on Vertex Arc Directions:

1. There is something to the system. Sometimes it even produces stunning examples.
2. However, it isn't reliable. I can't count on it. It does not score a win as often as basic techniques like transits and secondary progressions and seems oblivious to positive events. It might be fun to spot check when studying an event in hindsight, though.

Since the most dramatic examples have extremely tight orbs, I'll calculate my own exact hits for the next year and watch them as time passes. Between my 2024 and 2025 birthdays, progressed Vertex moves from 9°47' t 10°39' Gemini, so Vertex Arcs are moving just a little slower than Solar Arcs: 0°52'/year or a little over 4'/month.

I just looked - I have only two exact Vertex Arc aspects in the next year:
d Saturn sq r Venus 1/30/25
d Saturn op r Pluto 5/5/25

In the last year I had two. I don't recall last December having been this rough (I got my cornea transplant at the end):
d Neptune sq r Mercury 12/15/23
d Mars op r Saturn 12/20/23

Very interesting Jim, thank you for taking the time to run through all of these and scientifically scrutinize them. I appreciate your time and effort in doing this for us. It was helpful for me to critically examine my own life and its events and reflect on them, over time my perception of events has shifted …..as I read my childhood, and teenage diaries of events that seemed terrible, life shattering and devastating at the time with hindsight they really were not and seem to be more in kind with adjusting to the biological changes my physiology was going through, hormones mostly from puberty, and how my psyche was attempting to navigate these powerful disrupters to my childlike nature.

When John Lennon was killed, 9-year-old Veronica had progressed Mercury conjoining her natal Midheaven: Her senses were acute and wide open to taking in all the information from the world at that stage - perhaps the point that truly got her awake to what was happening and curious as could be.

No outer planet transits happened that night, but the Mars exactly squared your Uranus. I suspect you took news of this sudden, out-in-the-world violent event quite personally as it played the same harp strings in your psyche.

Your new lunar return three days earlier was a very intimate, personal chart with your Moon 5° above Ascendant and transiting Sun (near natal Mars) less than 3° below. Natal Pluto was 4° off Midheaven, with a 1°14' Sun mundane square to your Pluto. Saturn and Neptune were only widely foreground but in 0°23' from exact square. Your psyche was set up to respond to things occurring around you as being very personal to you - and they were events marked by grief that touched on the Plutonian "big life questions" like life and death.

I suspect also there were adults around you responding strongly to the events and, even if they said nothing, it left an impression. I remember 18 years earlier during the Cuban Missile Crisis when, mostly, nobody around me said anything about it but one could tell that all the adults were scared.

Your SLR three days before John's murder is quite an interesting, complex chart that you and others might want to study. Here are the details (hoping this doesn't detract too much from the current thread). - The three closest (partile) aspects by themselves tell quite a story.

t Saturn MC -8°18'
t Neptune Asc -7°55'
t Jupiter MC -6°03'
r Mars Asc -4°22'
r Pluto MC -3°54'
t Sun Asc -2°41'
------------------------
r Moon Asc +4°57'
r Jupiter Asc +6°49'
r Neptune Asc +9°06'

t Saturn-Neptune sq 0°23' M
r Mars-Pluto sq 0°28' M
r Moon-Neptune co 0°56'
t Sun sq r Pluto 1°14' M
t Jupiter-Saturn co 1°21'
t Jupiter sq r Mars 1°41' M
t Sun co r Mars 1°42' M
r Jupiter-Neptun co 1°45'
t Jupiter-Neptune sq 1°52' M
r Moon-Jupiter co 1°52' M
t Jupiter co r Pluto 2°09' M
t Neptune co r Mars 3°33' M

Yup, this all rings true.
Lots that I could add but I don’t want to derail this thread.
I will copy Jim’s above post and post it in my lunar return thread and examine it there.

I would add here that I had a lot going on in my nuclear family as a child, things that scared me terribly and caused me to disassociate from reality and isolate myself from perceived harm. This lunar, as we understand lunars need to be, needs to be examined in context to my 1980SSR for proper clarity into me.

Thanks Jim for your feedback and for putting me onto Jayne's work in the first place with one of your indirect posts about him. I hang out of this forum to learn astrological things and Jayne's work has been a suprising discovery for me with some of my chart files. I will continue to investigate his work and post any insights I may see/learn from Jayne's work.

The credit for the discovery of solar and Ascendant declination arc directions belongs to Edgar R. Wagner and Eleanor Hasseltine, one of the great unrecognized astrologers. These methods were tested by Roy C. Firebrace, who was especially impressed by the declination arcs. Charles Jayne, “The Best of Charles Jayne”, pg 114, in the chapter on ‘Declination Arc Directions.’

I have just been through all of Firebrace Spica issues and unless Firebrace labelled these ‘Declination Arc Directions’ another title other than using the word "Directions", I see no mention of ‘Declination Arc Directions or Directions of any kind in any of Firebrace Spica writings? Nor do I remember any main articles written on any kind of arc directions from Fagan or Bradley? Based on my early research, I am beginning to beleive very few, if any, astrological authors were aware of Jayne's discovery of other Arc Directions besides the standard of Solar Arc directions. If anyone happens to come across any kind of writings commenting on Jayne's discovery of new arc directions--please let me know.

SteveS wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2024 8:11 am I have just been through all of Firebrace Spica issues and unless Firebrace labelled these ‘Declination Arc Directions’ another title other than using the word "Directions", I see no mention of ‘Declination Arc Directions or Directions of any kind in any of Firebrace Spica writings?

I do not recall anything from Roy on this topic at all. His July, 1972 letter to me did propose Solar Arcs as something I might want to investigate (he was proposing research topics for me; instead, I picked his other topic, converse returns, and took many years before I wandered back to solar arcs).
https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 231#p24130

Nor do I remember any main articles written on any kind of arc directions from Fagan or Bradley?

Agreed. They were little discussed and tended to be looked down upon as artificial and unlikely, though off hand I can't think of a specific assessment either gave. They weren't yet much talked about in English-speaking circles. (Firebrace, in contrast, spoke German and was in regular conversation with the German schools, so he ran into solar arcs much earlier.)

Based on my early research, I am beginning to beleive very few, if any, astrological authors were aware of Jayne's discovery of other Arc Directions besides the standard of Solar Arc directions.

I think "few" is fair. Bradley surely knew about some of the work - Jayne wrote often for American Astrology and was of the generation of astrologers well known in the astrological communities in which Bradley grew up (plus he had the technical mind to grasp it easily). I'd be quite surprised if Fagan didn't know who Jayne was, but more through public writings in the American press rather than his less circulated research: I think Jayne's work didn't much get to Great Britain.

Thanks Jim for your experience and knowledge pertaining to the history of the sidereal authors with arc directions. Jayne mentions several times in the two books I am studying about Fagan’s technical skills in the field of astrology, but as far as I can tell Jayne never mentions SSRs.

By the study of my life with my Natal Chart along with some of my other chart files, there is no doubt Charles Jayne and his research group discovered some very important new arc directions for the timing of important events in one’s life time. The best I can tell most public astrologers have never worked with these new Jayne arc directions.

We use only the true solar arc and the Ascendant and vertical arcs (vertex) derived from it in both longitude and declination, (a total of 6 different arcs). The so-called adverse life events are best (for testing): deaths, accidents, illness, operations, loss of position, loss of money, loss of property. Furthermore, difficult or stressful occurrences for those close to a person can be as important as those happening directly to the person. Charles Jayne, “The Best of Charles Jayne.”

The following are my standard Solar Arc directions and two of 5 Jayne’s new arc directions (Ascendant & Vertex arcs) for the worst event in my entire life. This very malefic event exactly started at 10:00 AM on Monday July 8th 1985 and lasted till noon Oct 31 1987 before it finally came to an end.

First the standard Solar Arc directions:
1: d Mars 07,10 Leo; r MC 06,24 Leo (Hostile takeover of a small private company)
2: d Mercury 27,30 Lib; r ASC 27,55 Lib (As we can see this was a Mercury-Mars Paran)
3: d Vertex 23,34 Can; r Saturn 24,02 Can (by far the worst Saturn cycle in my entire life)
4: d Saturn 01,23 Vir; r Sun 02,50 Vir; r Uranus 02,06 Gem (again—major Saturn symbolism)
5: d Jupiter 07,03 Sag; r Venus 07, 26 Vir (I was paid the highest salary in my life to manage this bankrupt company after a 3 and half year absent from the company).

Jayne’s Vertex arc directions:
1: d MC 01,17 Vir; r Sun 02,50 Vir; r Uranus 02,06 Gem (I was given the highest titled position in my entire life as “Managing Director” of the Company. I was offered the President (CEO) of the Company but turned it down because the Board of Directors fired the CEO who was like a second father to me who hired me to start working for the company when I was 6 years old, born next to a Drive-Inn Theater).
2: d Mars 24,42 Can; r Saturn 24,02 Can (the worst Mars-Saturn “destruction” I have ever been through in my entire life)
3: d Pluto 15,06 Leo; r Moon 15,22 Scorpio (By far the beginning of the most shocking/stunning intense emotional period in my entire life).

Jayne’s Ascendant Arc directions:
1: d Mars 28,54 Can; r ASC 27,55 Lib (the beginning of a corporate WAR with a hostile takeover of a company).
As we can see the above 4 new arcs Jayne discovered were par-excellent directions for the worst event to ever happen in my life, and these are only 3 of the Directions Jayne used out of his 6 arc directions he used in his main body of astrological work. The other 3 were “Declination Arc Directions” which he said were the main ones his research team relied on for rectification, they were avid rectification experts for Jayne felt most Natal Charts had errors with the recorded birth times. I have no program that check for "Declination Arcs" for my lifetime.

I have thoroughly enjoyed studying Jayne’s written material, and have learned much with the new directional arcs Jayne discovered. Obviously he was a great technical astrologer with the pure astronomy which calculates much of the astrology he studied/implemented. Based on my chart I totally agree with his opinions/thoughts on the Vertex which he labeled the 3rd angle. Even though they never met Jayne’s and Johndro’s work together produced some great technical stuff in the field of Astrology with the Vertex. I think Johndro actually discovered the Vertex angle.

After reading Jayne’s Chapter on Locality Charts with Johndro’s Base Line charts, which the technical language is way over my mental capacity to fully understand, I feel like if Jayne had accepted Fagan/Bradley SVP (he totally rejected F/B SVP) and moved the Earth’s Meridian from Greenwich back to Giza (Great Pyramid)-- we would possibly have had a true earth’s Sidereal Zodiac on the ground for maybe better mundane astrology sights. Also, if Johndro had been fully aware of Fagan/Bradley SVP work, Johndro’s mundane work with a possible Earth’s Sidereal Zodiac in place on the ground could possible had advanced mundane astrology’s knowledge. Just some of my intuitive thoughts after where I am with my studies with Jayne's work.

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 5:20 am https://michaelerlewine.com/viewtopic.php?t=110

So obviously a Virgo-Aries - by Michael's brief bio, and in meeting Charles in person.

Interesting Steve, thanks for the link.
I strikes me as very odd that as he supposedly was all for tech, and science and against profiting from astrology yet that he continued to practice Tropical, the seeming epitome of profit making, fear mongering, and superstition.
It could be valuable to recalculate the Tropical charts he published for his vertex work and see how they unfold with the true zodiac.
Steve, can you share what historical events he used in his examples?

V wrote:

It strikes me as very odd that as he supposedly was all for tech, and science and against profiting from astrology yet that he continued to practice Tropical, the seeming epitome of profit making, fear mongering, and superstition.

I hear you V. IMO, Jayne who wrote a mundane column for 15 years with Dell Astrology Mag was caught in between a rock and a hard place, because Dell completely rejected anything to do with Fagan/Bradley Sidereal Zodiac. Jayne wrote:

There is no adequate book on the stars and the sidereal zodiac. This is bound to infuriate the fanatical Siderealists, but much of great value in the work of Fagan and Bradley was flawed by their opinionatedness and the incorrect ayanamsa they insisted on. Johndro’s first class The Stars: How and Where They Influence has to do with timing. “The Best of Charles Jayne” pg 4---signed-off Charles A Jayne, Feb 21 1975, Monroe, New York.

Yet Jayne in many of his writings speaks very highly of Fagan. I would have loved to have taken some of Jim’s mundane work with Bradley’s SVP and proven to Jayne we siderealists did indeed have the correct ayanamsa for mundane work, and/or let Jayne prove to me he had the right ayanamsa for the Sidereal Zodiac. Yet I have no writings from Jayne that he even attempted to prove a correct ayanamsa, so for now I hold this against Jayne, but Jayne has proven to me with a-lot of his work it works perfectly with my Natal.
V wrote:

It could be valuable to recalculate the Tropical charts he published for his vertex work and see how they unfold with the true zodiac. Steve, can you share what historical events he used in his examples?

V, as of yet with the two Jayne books I am studying I have not seen him offer any mundane historical events, only native chart examples with his predictive systems, which I will try to eventually offer examples later. I would love to get my eyes on all of Jayne’s mundane work he published in Dell so we could compare the same events with our Sidereal systems with Bradley’s SVP.

Even though I see a huge divide between Jayne and the Siderealists SVP, I am a big believer no one astrologer is so perfect that all astrologers cannot learn from others. I just wish I understood the same technical side of the astronomy Jayne was applying to his systems.

Steve, the Vtx is almost the same or maybe exactly the same point as the west point. It may relate to the polar ASC-DSC as well, or using Morinus house system to see this angle. I do think it also has to do with whole sign house division.

Are the directions of this angle as you speak of above not just the same as directing this angle one degree pr. year??? Same method as solar arcs angles?

IF I was born at 23.40, this point is 2-3° from my Uranus. IF I was born around 23.27 this point is partile 0,17 on Uranus. One of the most fated (I was a baby and had no control over the situation and how it would form neural pathways relating to the relationship to my mother (and probably father as well) when she left me at around 6 months old for a few months. A baby will experience a tremendous loss by this. So I've always connected this event with a Uranus (sudden) and Pluto (separation/transformation) either to this point (or similar).

Arena wrote:

Steve, the Vtx is almost the same or maybe exactly the same point as the west point. It may relate to the polar ASC-DSC as well, or using Morinus house system to see this angle. I do think it also has to do with whole sign house division.

Arena, all know with my recent studies of Jayne with my Natal is for sure the Vertex axis is the 3rd important completely separate angle of a Natal Chart. It may coincide with another angle depending on certain time/geometric factors for other birth charts.
Arena wrote:

Are the directions of this angle as you speak of above not just the same as directing this angle one degree pr. year??? Same method as solar arcs angles?

As I think I understand, there are Jayne’s 6 arc methods which are Solar Arc, Vertex Vertical Arc, Ascendant Arc, and Declination Arcs for the same preceding 3 main arcs for a total of 6 directional arc Jayne methods. I do know this: When I use the standard Solar Arc method for directing all natal factors in my Natal Chart, my Natal Vertex was directed to a partile conjunction of my Natal Saturn which began a 2 year 3 month agonizing Saturn cycle in my life. And when my wife before we were married had her Vertex Solar Arc to her Mars-Pluto Natal Square she experience the most brutal downer in her life. But Arena, understand, I am just beginning my studies with Jayne’s material and I am not sure I understand all the math Jayne was doing with his arc methods for a Natal. I do understand this: Jayne said our Vertex has to do with fated events (benefic & malefic) without us having any individual control over the fated matter and that is exactly what happened to me when my Vertex Solar Arc to Saturn—it was controlled by a group of Stockholders with me only owning 1% of the Stock in the Company—yet I was voted the head of the Company after the CEO and his wife were fired---it was the most depressing event in my life. Now I understand why the German Schools of Astrology (Cosmobiology) labeled Solar Arcs as co-determinants of “fate,” but Jayne with his extensive research says the Vertex has much more to do with Fate than the other angles.

I also believe other past astrologers who studied Jayne’s material avoided using the word “fate” with the Vertex because of the free will debate/karma issue that has existed in modern astrology with malefic events, but what I can see/understand with a study of my Natal Chart there are at times negative fated things we will/must experience in life according to possible geometrical/mathematical structures of our Natal’s, which we have no control over by being born at a certain place in TIME. We all must learn how to release the negatives of life events after it has happened to us---otherwise—it f—cks us up psychology. It’s like my wife has taught me: Sometimes negative things in life are “meant to happen”-- we have to learn to accept and move on with the rest of our life. Anyway—thanks for your feedback Arena.

I continue to get precise timing hits with my research on my Natal with Jayne’s Vertex & Ascendant arcs.

Here are the hits for one of the best cycle in my entire life excluding the excellent Solar Arc hits that were there as well. On Oct 31 1987 10:00 AM I officially became the sole owner of my own Theater, the happiest day in my life, my dream come true.

1: Vertex MC arc 02,43 Vir; r Sun 02,50 Vir; r Uranus 02,06 Gem (Symbolizing a major “Life Development” with Vertex MC arc involved), a “fated” event for my life.

2: Vertex Sun 29,08 Vir; r Mars 29,50 Gem (“vocational success, extraordinary achievements”)

3: Ascendant Arc MC 07,21 Vir; r Venus 07,26 Vir (Note another major “Life Development” involving an arc MC)

4: Ascendant Arc Moon 16,18 Sag; r Neptune 16,01 Vir; r Vertex 16,14 Gem. (Note: By Jayne’s teachings my r Neptune partile 90 my r Vertex was a strong symbolic indicator of my Neptune career in the Movie/Theater business)

5: Ascendant arc Node 02,06 Gem; r Sun 02,50 Vir; r Uranus 02,06 Gem (At this time in my life I placed an order for Robert Hand’s Nova astrological program.)

I certainly don’t agree with all of Jayne’s astrological opinions, but for sure he has proven to me through his new arc discoveries for a Natal some good astrological methods.

Interesting findings Steve. Do you not find it confusing at all that these methods have other angles than the solar arcs? ... so now you simply have more angles to deal with.

I am looking into one particular event to see if these arcing methods show me anything important. As you say these methods concern relationships and fated events in your opinion. This is a day that I look at as fated for my separation and I look at it not only as a separation of me and my ex partner, but also a breakup of our family that will affect our children always. I only arc the chart from birth place chart like you seem to do as well (even though I had relocated at the time of the event). Testing two different birth times for myself for arcs on June 2nd 2019.

23.40 bt:
Asc arc
No partile hits of malefics/disruptive planets.
D. SNode partile r. Mer.
D. Vx partile sq r. Sun.

Vx arc
D. Moon partile opp. r. Jup and partile sq. r. Pluto.
D. Jup partile opp r. Sun and d. Pluto squares it.
D. Mer partile r. Pluto and sq. r. Jup.

23.27 bt:
Asc arc
D. Ur partile sq. r. Sun.
D. Nep partile opp r. Ven.
D. Vx and IC almost partile r. Sun.
D. Pluto almost partile sq. Nodes.

However, if my MC angle move slightly further back (minutes earlier birth time) the Asc arc would have Sat partile conj IC.

Vx. arc
D. Moon 0,05 sq r. Pluto and 0,25 opp r. Jup.
D. Mer 0,06 conj r. Pluto and 0,44 sq r. Jup.
D. Pluto 0,18 sq r. Sun and d. Jup opp r. Sun.
D. Nep almost partile r. MC.


Testing this date with slightly earlier birth time to see what happens when d. Saturn would be partile r. IC just for the sake of Jayne's methods of rectification. (I emphasize this is just experimenting - Saturn did not necessarily have to be on the IC (but if it isn't when this happened it would likely be timing death of mother).

23.20 bt
Asc arc.
D. Sat partile r. IC.
D. Pluto partile sq. Nodes.
D. SNode 1,01 partile r. Mars.
D. Ur partile sq. r. Sun.
D. Nep partile opp r. Venus.

Vx arc
D. Moon-Mer to r. Pluto.
D. Jup-Pluto partile opp-sq r. Sun.
D. Nep partile r. MC.

I am now looking at these alternatives and am wondering if Jayne looked at transits to the arcs?
IF he used transits with arcs, I notice that the earlier birth times will be having a partile hit to the arc ASC/DSC right now with the Mars-Pluto opposition in the sky. Seems brutal. The 23.40 bt would not have it as a partile hit to the arced ASC.

Arena wrote/asked:

Do you not find it confusing at all that these methods have other angles than the solar arcs? ... so now you simply have more angles to deal with.

No, not at all confusing to me, probably because I know my birth time is very accurate. Based on running tests to my life with major angular “Life Developments”, I find there are at times Jayne’s “other” arc methods with the standard angular Solar Arc “Life Developments.” Jayne is using pure/exact astronomy for calculating all of his directional arcs, and these Jayne directional arcs are a big part of natural astronomical/mathematical laws coded into our Natal Chart, which is mind blowing when you stop and ponder this fact. IMO, Jayne’s directional arcs are one of, if not the best known methods for realizing “Timing is Everything” and certain Life Events in our life are meant to happen at a specific time described by these astronomical/mathematical laws of nature with the symbolism of the planets in our solar system.

I think it is good you are testing these arcs to the various times you are looking at for your accurate birth time. This is exactly what Jayne did for rectifying charts--he was a rectification expert.

Arena asked:

I am now looking at these alternatives and am wondering if Jayne looked at transits to the arcs?

If so, I have seen no evidence he used transits to arcs. Arena, if you remember the worst day in your life which began at least one year of malefic times, let me know and I will look at all of Jayne’s arcs/SP for that one day to see if we can see a fairly accurate bt. I think you have been using the 11:27 bt, correct?

Arena wrote:

Testing this date with slightly earlier birth time to see what happens when d. Saturn would be partile r. IC just for the sake of Jayne's methods of rectification. (I emphasize this is just experimenting - Saturn did not necessarily have to be on the IC (but if it isn't when this happened it would likely be timing death of mother). However, if my MC angle move slightly further back (minutes earlier birth time) the Asc arc would have Sat partile conj IC.

Yes Arena, the 23:20 time indeed shows much better symbolism than the other times for the June 2 2019 event for the beginning break-up of the family. Also your Asc Arc Mars 23,21 Leo; r Saturn 23,07 Tau. Also your Asc Arc Jupiter approaching conjunction to your North Node for excellent symbolism connecting-up with your new mate after the break-up. I also like the Vx Arc symbolism for a 23:20 time. With the 23:20 time we see two major angular “Life Development” arcs:

Asc arc Saturn to your r MC/IC axis and Vx D. Nep partile r. MC.

This is the type of malefic angular arc symbolism you must see for one of the worst events in your life beginning June 2 2019. I am not saying this is your correct birth time, only you can decide, but I would experiment further with directions for this 23:20 time for other main events in your life. I do beleive arc directions are the best tool we have for rectifying a birth time.

Thank you for your insights Steve. It seems more fitting. And yes, I noticed that Jupiter approach to Nnode as well for my new relationship. In the year or about 18 months leading up to the separation I was going through one of my longest periods of depression, and I believe it was partly because of mold toxins putting a strain on my nervous system. I started the healing process in Oct 2018 and had fully recovered by the end of 2019 and have not felt it for 5 yrs. Amazing healing, and permanent (hopefully). We can also see the Mars symbolism for the few months of 'war'/fight that took place in the aftermath of my separation, when my ex went totally nut.

Yes, this is so interesting. Now I've become even more curious about Jayne's rectification methods. I have to buy his books and learn more.

Now, I consider my chore to be to explore those minutes from 23.20-23.27. I believe the correct birth time may lie somewhere between those. Even though this is only a few min difference, it makes a lot of difference in all my arcs, transits and the return charts change a great deal.

Arena wrote:

Yes, this is so interesting. Now I've become even more curious about Jayne's rectification methods. I have to buy his books and learn more.

Jayne’s work has become the most interesting astrological work I have discovered since I discovered Sidereal Astrology back in the late 80s. There is so much I don’t understand from his books. I hope you do get his books and maybe we can learn new astrological techniques together. I have been waiting after the election to post some more of Jayne’s most interesting charts that I have absolutely no experience with, which the election results may prove these charts as valid tools to put in our astrological tool box. I need to wait on final election results before I post these Jayne charts. You will probably understand more than me after you absorb Jayne’s teachings from his two books. I hope Jim and other members has the time to explore some of Jayne’s techniques as well so we can all learn together.
Arena wrote:

Now, I consider my chore to be to explore those minutes from 23.20-23.27. I believe the correct birth time may lie somewhere between those. Even though this is only a few min difference, it makes a lot of difference in all my arcs, transits and the return charts change a great deal.

I totally agree Arena.

Harris received a shellacking from voters on Election Day with Trump winning Prez in a landslide, carrying a majority of the Senate and projected majority of Congress with him for his Presidency. Also, Trump is winning the popular vote around 5 million votes, totally unexpected for a Republican to carry the popular vote.

I want to offer an observation with my early studies of Jayne’s methodology, which IMO, offered par-excellent symbolism for Harris losing and Trump winning. First for Harris with her devastating losing symbolism.

I have long known that Solar Arc directions with partile 0 90 180 aspects to or from a chart’s Natal angles has much to do with fated major “Life Developments.” What impresses me the most about Jayne’s work is the fact he and his research team of astrologers over many years researched hundreds of charts with Jayne’s system of Progressions & Directions. On page 113 in the book “The Best of Charles Jayne” in the chapter on “Declination Arc Directions” he wrote:

There is some evidence that converse directions and converse secondary progressions may be more fated than the direct ones.

Below is a link to Kamala Harris Converse Secondary Progressed Chart for Election Day Nov 5 2024. It present outstanding symbolism for her surprised losing symbolism.
Harris Natal inside wheel; Harris Secondary Progression outside wheel:

https://ibb.co/S5f51Y7

Note her major “Life Development” aspect of:
Converse sp Saturn 07,37 Aqu; r MC 08,09 Aqu.
And:
Converse sp Sun 04,48 Leo; r Saturn 04,12 Aqu (Jayne states many times in his writings: pay close attention to the angles and lights for his methodology.
Converse Moon 22,07 Cap; r Neptune 22,35 Lib
Converse Neptune 20,59 Lib; r Vx 20,30 Lib (Jayne stressed the Vx has much to do with “fated” life events).
Trump’s outstanding landslide winning symbolism with Jayne’s methodology later….

Turns out voting by the people in a Democracy for a Prez Election can at times have profound landslide effects! Trump just won the Prez in a “stunning/shocking” Pluto manner with results the USA has not seen since Regan won the Prez. And Jayne’s Arcs methodology shows absolute proof for Trump’s “stunning/shocking” Pluto landslide victory, I will demonstrate with Jayne's Arc methodology.

Converse Solar Arc Pluto 00,03 Tau; r MC 00,19 Tau
Solar Arc MC 15,21 Can; r Pluto 16,03 Can

We can clearly see here precise synchronic arc Pluto—MC symbolism for Trump’s “stunning/shocking" Pluto Prez Election results! These two angular Pluto Arc hits are major "Life Developments." Ebertin/COSI for Pluto-MC symbolic tones:

Growth and development of strength. The power to attain success in life, ability to organize, prudence, vision, authority. Ability to maintain one’s position in life. Fame.
Sociological Correspondence: People excelling in their particular profession or occupation. Experts of great authority in their particular field.
Probable Manifestations: Attainment of recognition and power. Inclination to look upon one’s vocation or calling as a mission.

Donald Bradley one of our great Sidereal Astrology teachers said no one can expect to be elected without prominent Moon-Jupiter symbolism.

Converse Vtx Arc Moon 24,45 Vir; r Jupiter 23,27 Vir
Ascendant Arc Jupiter 26,31 Scorpio; r Moon 27,12 Scorpio; r Node 26,48 Tau
Ascendant Arc Sun 02,00 Leo; r Mars 02,47 Leo. Ebertin for Sun-Mars symbolic tones:

Power of attainment, ability to make decisions quickly. Advancement in life through one’s own effort with vitality and vigor, acceptance of leading positions, overcoming of difficulties and dangers, vocational success, extraordinary achievements.

Damn!!! I had not calculated these Jayne Arcs before the election because I was in the middle of studying his book teachings, if I had I would have wagered some $ on Trump winning this Prez Election. This is a superb example of how Jayne’s Arcs with our Natals are timing important "fated" events in our lives. Also, we can clearly see here with these partile aspects solid proof Trump’s birth time is very accurate.

SteveS wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 4:19 am Turns out voting by the people in a Democracy for a Prez Election can at times have profound landslide effects! Trump just won the Prez in a “stunning/shocking” Pluto manner with results the USA has not seen since Regan won the Prez. And Jayne’s Arcs methodology shows absolute proof for Trump’s “stunning/shocking” Pluto landslide victory, I will demonstrate with Jayne's Arc methodology.

Converse Solar Arc Pluto 00,03 Tau; r MC 00,19 Tau
Solar Arc MC 15,21 Can; r Pluto 16,03 Can

We can clearly see here precise synchronic arc Pluto—MC symbolism for Trump’s “stunning/shocking" Pluto Prez Election results! These two angular Pluto Arc hits are major "Life Developments."

It's misleading to think of these as two separate contacts (and there is nothing surprising that they are synchronous). Because Sun's speed is reasonably consistent, converse solar arcs will always be mirrors of the direct solar arcs (within small variations of arc). This is simply one aspect: directed MC conjunct natal Pluto 38'. (How big the difference can get depends on exactly when in the year one is born.)

That isn't true of Vertex arc, so it does make sense to check those separately. (However, the Moon-Jupiter example you gave is pretty wide.)