Sun in Scorpio - sign project

[Jim Eshelman]

Welcome to the Sun in Scorpio discussions project, which will run November 17 - December 16, 2017 (and then will remain around in case people want to revisit it in the future). Please gather your list of Sun in Scorpio people (especially those you know personally) and join us.

Here are Sun in Scorpio interpretive resources on the forum:
Primary section: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p162
Cyril Fagan: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=101#p607
Garth Allen: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33#p137
Rupert Gleadow: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=91#p568
Manilius: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=121#p745

[By Jove]

The gates are open. (And I personally have a lot of months to catch up on.)

The gates of Hell you mean? Ah, 2nd house humor. It always bothered me though how small your primary section notes on Scorpio and Aries are compared to the other signs. Maybe I'm being neurotic, but I always wished it equalized.

[Jim Eshelman]

It always bothered me though how small your primary section notes on Scorpio and Aries are compared to the other signs. Maybe I'm being neurotic, but I always wished it equalized.

Yes, you've mentioned it before. I think it's that Scorpio, in particular, is much simpler and straightforward. It's not about complexitis. (Aries is another matter: In some ways, it's highly complex, though most of that complexity is addressed in one or two statements about its inherently paradoxical nature.)

So, yes, either it's neurotic or you should be an editor. A respected magazine editor once commented that, when I'd write something about signs, I never made all the sections the same length. For the magazine and its readership, that's what they wanted. I said that I didn't have as much to say about some as the others.

[By Jove]

I found that when it comes to Mars dominant people (myself included) true complexity of character lies in actions, strategies, and techniques people do in their lives, both to achieve personal goals and interact with other people. That speaks louder than having a "personality" or "state of being", which amounts to little on its own. All this I learned gradually over time as a composer and writer.

[By Jove]

I had a brief chat with an astrologer some months back. We discussed Scorpio's mythology and exaltation to Ouranos.

I said:

Orion was a famous hunter who boasted to Artemis (his lover) and Leto (Artemis' mother) that he would kill every animal on earth. Artemis and Leto sent a scorpion in retaliation to kill Orion. The battle was so epic Zeus himself came over to watch, but the scorpion did kill Orion in the end. Zeus put both Scorpio and Orion in the sky as constellations as a lesson to mortals to curb their pride.

Leto (her name meaning disputed) was the daughter of Coeus and Phoebe. Coeus (name meaning questioning) represented rational intelligence and the earth's axis, around which the heavens revolved. Phoebe (name meaning shining) represented wisdom and prophecy. Together, Coeus and Phoebe represent primal knowledge of the entire cosmos. Further down the line, Leto was the granddaughter of Ouranos and Gaia.

In another version, Apollo was angry at Artemis and Orion becoming lovers, so he sent a scorpion to kill Orion. Artemis asked Zeus to put Orion in the night sky, so Zeus put both Orion and Scorpio. In either case, Scorpio forever chases Orion in the sky.

In another myth, Phaeton, mortal son of Apollo, drove his father's Sun Chariot for a day. Phaeton lost control over the white horses drawing the chariot, making him ride far too high, which chilled the earth. He approached the constellation Scorpio, which lashed out at him with its stinger, driving him too low to the earth. This caused all vegetation to burn, turned Africa into a desert, and blackened the skin of the Ethiopians. Zeus had to strike down Phaeton with a thunder bolt, killing him.

We see a similar theme in this Scorpio myth: a lesson for mortals to curb their pride. In your webpage on Zoroastrian sign rulers, you list Ate as co-ruling Scorpio with Ares, which makes sense. Ate once tricked Zeus into acting rashly, so he forever banished her from Olympus. In this respect, Ate resembles the Devil and fallen angels from Christianity. In Greek tragedy, Ate was the one who gave the tragic hero his hubris, causing his downfall. Her Roman name is Error, as in a fatal flaw in one's character or action.

I see a heavy association from Scorpio with vengeance, ruin, and damnation, but not so much with Ouranos. I'll touch on Ouranos in another post because this post is already way too long.

She said:

I see that for Uranus/Scorpio I have the quote, "The sky is the limit" as sometimes noted for tropical Sagittarius. I have some information on the God Uranus as lord of the sky, boundless and without limit, and sidereal Scorpio doesn't like limitation of any kind. Then I also have notes about the Uranian myth being full of violence...the Titans, etc. From the blood of Uranus the furies were born whose job was to avenge crime. I also have notes on the movies that came out during the Uranus transit of Scorpio. (I can never remember how to spell 'Ouranos' so I use Uranus which is our modern western spelling.)

Consider how Ouranos died, castration, which can be easily related to Scorpio, and Aphrodite was said to be born from his severed member (sex crimes, the dark side of Venus...Scorpio is the 8th house sign).

I said:

I do notice a lot of major astronomy and cosmology concepts named after Scorpios who made major advances in astronomy. (Ouranos, the infinite night sky etc.) Ouranos was discovered by William Herschel (Nov 15). The Hubble Space telescope and the Hubble Deep Field were named after Edwin Hubble (Nov 20). The Kuiper Belt was named after Gerard Kuiper (Dec 7). Even cosmologists like Albert Einstein and Carl Sagan had Scorpio Moons. Other prominent Scorpios in related fields are Freeman Dyson (Dec 15) and Werner Heisenberg (Dec 5) And so forth.

I will mention though how many prominent Aries Suns exist too, but they occupy more theoretical physics than astronomy. Aquarius and Sagittarius Suns are also abundant. So there is a Ouranos aspect to Scorpio in that respect.

From my experience I do note how Scorpio luminary musicians and composers sound "out of this world", as if beyond music itself. And the heavy dearth of Scorpio architects from Bernini to Paladeo. And architecture could also be considered a Ouranos thing as grand buildings seem to reach for the heavens.

Anyway, I have two threads on Scorpio in Solunars, which you may find relevant and important, both for the general mythology of the sign and for Ouranos.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=433
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1602

[James Condor]

The few Scorpios I know personally, show at times this strong arrogance as if nothing will go wrong in their pursuit of whatever it is at hand; This could be the "expect the protection of the gods". It is also competing, but, they would do it just to see they can, not because of social or peer pressure.
Also, Jim's overall interpretation is very solid and accurate. One example of this in particular is that they won't speak, low profile, unless a specific reason.
The freedom motif is very apparent.
They seem to lead by example and they are good at teaching others. They seem quite influential.

[Jim Eshelman]

There's an important movie about Winston Churchill coming out about now. Since Gary Oldman is the lead, the acting will be flawless, and the whole probably will be a great example of Scorpio Sun.

[By Jove]

What about Scorpios such Emily Dickenson, Marina Abramovich, Noam Chomsky etc.? Scorpio traits are usually thought of as "extroverted", but what is the best way to understand Scorpio when it represents itself in a more "introverted" manner?

[Jim Eshelman]

What about Scorpios such Emily Dickenson, Marina Abramovich, Noam Chomsky etc.? Scorpio traits are usually thought of as "extroverted", but what is the best way to understand Scorpio when it represents itself in a more "introverted" manner?

I think of Scorpio in general as being on the introverted side of the middle line - generally a bit more introverted than extroverted. (I certainly don't think of the sign as extroverted in general.)

For the examples you give, though, I wonder if you are think more of intellect than introversion. Is this what you're tracking (intellect vs. physical aggression)?

[By Jove]

I did think "introversion" but perhaps I could rephrase it as "reclusive" or "private". Your example, Winston Churchill, is a very "public" figure; a politician, orator, statesmen, and so forth. Over the years I've come to associate Scorpio with certain general archetypes (for lack of a better word) such as "daredevil, soldier, satirist, mechanic, rock star, crime boss" etc.

People tend to think such figures as "extroverts", though reality is different. As such, it seems Scorpio isn't often associated with "sensitive artist types" or "lonely intellectual types", and other cliches people associate with "introversion" and profundity. I wonder how Scorpio manifests itself through people who do fit generic "introvert" labels.

But I'm also curious about the intellect vs. physical aggression aspect.

[Jim Eshelman]

I did think "introversion" but perhaps I could rephrase it as "reclusive" or "private". Your example, Winston Churchill, is a very "public" figure; a politician, orator, statesmen, and so forth. Over the years I've come to associate Scorpio with certain general archetypes (for lack of a better word) such as "daredevil, soldier, satirist, mechanic, rock star, crime boss" etc.

I agree with those words ecept not always (or even usually) physically. They are indeed daredevils, but usually with ideas and the conditions of their lives; soldier (or I'd say combatant or fighter) but not usually physically - they are using the military combatant model for navigating their lives and impacting the world around them.

Rock stars are an interesting example. According to one statistical study, they are primarily Leos and Aquariuses. But you're thinking of a certain set of them, e.g., Morrison who - while a performer was intensely private and in-turned. He wasn't the least bit of an extrovert, i.e., he drew his meaning and orientation primarily from within himself rather than from the world outside of himself; and this seems, to me, quite typical of Scorpio.

"Brooding, in-turned, private, deeply thinking" seem, across the board, descriptive of them even when their life is lived in public display. (Hubs lean this way overall, though Leo is on display more than the others.) From Walt Disney or Ted Turner to Robert Kennedy, Bruce Lee, Woody Allen, Mark Twain, or Margaret Cho, to Jim Morrison or Jimi Hendrix, these are inwardly rich, inwardly driven people. (One of the least private I can think of is Joe Biden - Aries Moon, I think - he sort of "wears his private live on his sleeve," but is still deeply in-turned and internally-motivated.) And how about the seemingly opposed, actually similar, John Milton and Martin Luther?

People tend to think such figures as "extroverts", though reality is different.

Exactly! (There is also the problem that the Freudian and Jungian definitions of introvert vs. extrovert are almost the opposite of each other, and neither exactly matches popular, casual use of the words - though the Freudian version is closer.)

As such, it seems Scorpio isn't often associated with "sensitive artist types" or "lonely intellectual types", and other cliches people associate with "introversion" and profundity.

And yet, Garth Allen's first statement about them in his list of notes is Promethean. That's where he starts, with the idea that these are some of the people who best take abstract truths, arts, music, philosophic themes, etc. and transform them into nuts-and-bolts form that the common people can assimilate. (I suppose that's the Mars element: Turning it into immediate, practical form that is easy to assimilate.) All the people I listed brought wisdom, art, or culture to the people. Perhaps this is the theme you're searching for?

But I'm also curious about the intellect vs. physical aggression aspect.

Drop the idea of physical. With a rare exception like Bruce Lee, Scorpio is everything you're listing above except not physically.

[By Jove]

"Brooding, in-turned, private, deeply thinking" seem, across the board, descriptive of them even when their life is lived in public display. (Hubs lean this way overall, though Leo is on display more than the others.) From Walt Disney or Ted Turner to Robert Kennedy, Bruce Lee, Woody Allen, Mark Twain, or Margaret Cho, to Jim Morrison or Jimi Hendrix, these are inwardly rich, inwardly driven people. (One of the least private I can think of is Joe Biden - Aries Moon, I think - he sort of "wears his private live on his sleeve," but is still deeply in-turned and internally-motivated.) And how about the seemingly opposed, actually similar, John Milton and Martin Luther?

I find this to be very true of the Scorpio luminaries I know, for better or worse. And like you said, this is a general trend among Hub signs. Drawing meaning from the outside world seems like a trait among Rim signs - correct me if I'm wrong. And Spoke signs seem to be both, reflecting their duality: one foot on the outside world, another on the inside world.

I don't know about myself in particular. I'm a double Spoke yet I'm far too introverted for my own good. I'm driven inwardly way too much, to the point where I pay too little attention to the outside world's standards. I don't know why. I don't think my Sun, for example, is such a big aspect. The Moon conjunct Neptune kind of makes sense, but that much.

Drop the idea of physical. With a rare exception like Bruce Lee, Scorpio is everything you're listing above except physically.

That's interesting, because you would think Mars would be very physical. But perhaps that is thinking too narrowly, as every planet has a physical aspect, as well as spiritual and psychological aspects etc. Danica visited me in NYC a while ago, and Danica mentioned how Mars was pure body and instinct, not intellectual in any way. I told her I once had a dream where I was a reptile with a state of mind similar to what she said.

[Jim Eshelman]

Angular Mars does tend to be physical, but other Mars expressions not as narrowly. I think Mars represents aggression and dominance needs mostly, and in today's world one is more effective dominating the world about them with ideas than with muscles.

The introversion of Sagittarius is much more acute (at least in extreme cases) than for Scorpio. I think it is strongly fed by the acute awareness of judgement, and is a retreatment from judgement, feeding an Ivory Tower type of response. When Sagittarians become very
neurotic, they retreat more and more into this Ivory Tower isolation. Think, for example, of Howard Hughes, Richard Nixon, and Elvis Presley.

[Danica]

Danica mentioned how Mars was pure body and instinct, not intellectual in any way. I told her I once had a dream where I was a reptile with a state of mind similar to what she said.

I said that to counteract what I perceived as your tendency to make it too abstract and intellectual

[By Jove]

Danica mentioned how Mars was pure body and instinct, not intellectual in any way. I told her I once had a dream where I was a reptile with a state of mind similar to what she said.

I said that to counteract what I perceived as your tendency to make it too abstract and intellectual

Oh, I see! Happy Thanksgiving BTW!

[By Jove]

The introversion of Sagittarius is much more acute (at least in extreme cases) than for Scorpio. I think it is strongly fed by the acute awareness of judgement, and is a retreatment from judgement, feeding an Ivory Tower type of response. When Sagittarians become very
neurotic, they retreat more and more into this Ivory Tower isolation. Think, for example, of Howard Hughes, Richard Nixon, and Elvis Presley.

I understand, but what about me being so extremely inwardly driven? What parts of my natal chart explain it?

[Danica]

The introversion of Sagittarius is much more acute (at least in extreme cases) than for Scorpio. I think it is strongly fed by the acute awareness of judgement, and is a retreatment from judgement, feeding an Ivory Tower type of response. When Sagittarians become very
neurotic, they retreat more and more into this Ivory Tower isolation. Think, for example, of Howard Hughes, Richard Nixon, and Elvis Presley.

I understand, but what about me being so extremely inwardly driven? What parts of my natal chart explain it?

Be patient, the Archer, the Sun will soon enough enter Sagittarius

[Jim Eshelman]

I understand, but what about me being so extremely inwardly driven? What parts of my natal chart explain it?

As Danica said, this isn't the thread for talking about Sagittarius - which is where the answer lies - but as a quick remark, Spokes, when stressed, either swing into obsessive-compulsiveness or paranoia traits (which are outwardly different but inwardly extremely similar). Sag is most likely to go OC. (Saturn tips things more strongly to OC, Neptune more toward paranoia; you have Moon closely conjunct both of these planets.) So there is going to be acute focus and intense, compulsive sense of feeling "driven" into behaviors. PS I'm not using these words in a pathological sense, but more in the sense of traits or leanings in the healthy range of personality.

[Antares5]

Scorpio is , without a doubt, the most common Sun sign among my friends. For some reason, it's very easy for me to connect with these people (and with Virgo Suns). The people that I will be listing here are all friends of at least 10 years and in some cases more than 15 or even 20 years. But even if they are not long time friends (casual encounters, or friends of friends), I can still quickly form friendships with them. That's why I think that Sun sign has more to do with interpersonal connections than with anything else.

The list includes : three of my closest friends since childhood and teenage years (2 Scorpio Suns and one Scorpio Moon), a cousin, my sisters best friend (who is also one of my two closer female friends, along with a Virgo lady), a neighbour and long time friend and a friend from college (he joined our closer circle during college but I have no contact with him anymore since he got married and went to Norway).

From my personal observation :

- They are all hardworking (even though frequently complaining about their work)
- Technical orientation. They are either engineers (the three friends who went to college with me), electricians (the Scorpio Moon), car mechanics (my cousin) or mathematicians (the neighbour). Only exception is the female friend, who is a lawyer.
- They all play video games (even the girl and the 40 year old cousin are avid gamers)
- They are easy-going and fun
- They are outspoken and blunt in speech
- Secrecy is NOT a trait among them. This seems to be just a tropical idea that Scorpio is secretive. All of them are very open and honest people. Only my Scorpio Moon friend seems to have this trait of "hiding weaknesses".
- They all like to travel, no exceptions
- They are not much into arts, but they like music. They seem to have a preference for a specific genre of music, instead of listening whatever is on the radio. For example, Scorpio Moon, female friend and my cousin are into rap music (along with another Scorpio Sun I once knew, who has an actual rapper). One Scorpio from college is into folk music and the other is into heavy metal.

[By Jove]

You must be jamescondor because nobody else talks about Scorpios that much. Pretty much agree here, though I would still insist on the secrecy aspect.

Blunt? Absolutely, though I do observe that the merciless bluntness comes out at specifically planned moments or when pressed. Otherwise, they're too nice for their own good. I rarely, if ever, seen the bluntness come out on accident.

Their demeanor is indeed laidback. They are driven and with high energy but not hyperactive as it were. Most of the energy is corked beneath the surface as it were.

My mere opinions.

[By Jove]

And Merry Krampus everyone! Wild and demonic Krampus (currently in Scorpio) gives way to wholesome and religious Christmas (currently in Sagittarius).

Christmas originally began as drunken pagan rave, a Saturnalia, but over time Christian values took over and it became the holiday we know today. Coincidentally, this process happened as Dec. 25 gradually shifted from Capricorn to Sagittarius.

[Antares5]

You must be jamescondor because nobody else talks about Scorpios that much. Pretty much agree here, though I would still insist on the secrecy aspect.

As I said, it's just the most common sign among my friends. Maybe it's because we are close friends, so we don't keep any secrets between each other. There is only one friend in our closer circle that I would call secretive and he is a Sagittarius Sun, Leo Moon.

Blunt? Absolutely, though I do observe that the merciless bluntness comes out at specifically times moments or when pressed. Otherwise, they're too nice for their own good. I rarely, if ever, seen the bluntness come out on accident.

I agree absolutely on this one. One of the Scorpios has a prominent angular Venus-Pluto conjunction. He is otherwise extremely nice, well-mannered and well-behaved. But even he can't hold back the bluntness at times, suddenly starting to use strong words instead of the usual "niceness".

[By Jove]

Jonathan Swift's 350th birthday was two days ago (when correcting his birthdate with Gregorian calendar). In the Libra sign project thread, I tried to suss out "archetypal" Libras (people who display many or pronounced typical Libra traits). So I want to start a trend where I do that for every sign, eventually. (I am as typical a Sagittarius as they come.)

So how is the Dean a typical Scorpio? I read the latest biography about him by Leo Damrosch, and it sheds a lot of light on Swift's character, so I can at least say a few things:

-Damrosch spends a lot of time discussing Swift's secrecy. He had two secret affairs with two women, Vanessa and Stella, and may have had a secret marriage with the latter woman. He was very fond of writing in code and anagrams, as the many letters to Stella show an entire secret language. Swift lived in an age where the royal courts were especially full of espionage and most authors published anonymously, but Swift was secretive even by those standards. Damrosch even calls him "a man of mystery" and "most secretive of men".

-Swift had many traits our modern society labels as "extrovert" and what older societies labeled as "choleric": he was lively, sharp-witted, gregarious, and very generous. He often trolled people with practical jokes and scathing satires (obviously). He was genuinely sociable, yet always used it as a strategic cover. He had tremendous energy and was physically active until well into old age. Later he used his positions as Dean to help jumpstart several poor Irish families into becoming well off businesses, and later established an asylum in Dublin. And of course the fleeting yet intense and violent emotions typical among most "cholerics".

-And of course the other "choleric" traits: Swift was an intimidating, domineering, exacting presence; preachers visiting St. Patrick's Cathedral were scared of him because he recorded every conceivable error they made while they preached, and he would take the preachers to task for each error afterward. As a young college student, he was very rebellious, often going out of school bounds and breaking rules. He got the equivalent of detention many times.

-Had a strong sexual vitality; carrying two intense affairs with Vanessa and Stella for many years. Jim speculated the "water" signs were intensive rather than extensive, and this definitely applies to Swift. The emotions of "water" signs are "fleeting" in the sense they rise and ebb like the tides, with little self-control from the person. Either way, older biographers incorrectly assumed Swift was asexual or impotent, yet the evidence suggests otherwise. He was a ladies man, very comfortable among female company.

-Swift was practical. He saw religion as a social and political order, and had little concern of the higher mysteries the theologians would speculate in. He likewise disdained modern science, as he saw it as an impractical waste of time. - Swift was somewhat right considering the nascent science of the 18th century had little discipline or foolproof methods. Science back then was more like the Mythbusters fooling around with gismos than serious research.

-And of course there is the sharp tongue, the satirical wit, the shrewd understanding of human character. But in Swift's case it is especially severe. His Sun was conjunct Shaula and Lesath, the "cat's eyes" stars that make the stinger of Scorpio. Some astrologers speculate Saturn to be rising in his natal chart. Swift's extreme satire shows a bitter pessimism fueled by indignation. Typical Scorpio is not that extreme, but it does show the source of wit and humor from the malefic Mars (shared by Aries, Scorpio, and Capricorn). As Mark Twain said, the source of laughter is not joy but sorrow.

-But Swift had a lot of playfulness and light-hearted wit too; he was a master troll as I said earlier. It was bascically a safety valve for him to deal with the intense pressure of politics and the evils of human existence. His favorite phrase was literally "long live the trifle".

-Damrosch mentions Swift having a volatile and "anarchist" spirit within him, and that Swift's reactionary and pro-establishment views were one of the ways Swift protected himself. Tale of a Tub is an example of Swift's "anarchist" spirit unleashed with no filters; the work is wild in structure and dense in its content, and no aspect of clerical life is left unscathed. Swift at his worst pessimism carries that spirit, where he savages all aspects of human life and the supposed dignity of humankind itself, to the point of nihilism.

-Damrosch on Swift elsewhere: "He was well known for his intensity, with a magnetic personality and a compelling gaze that people responded to instinctively. He had powerful, even volatile emotions. He had intense likes and dislikes. He flirted with attractive women all his life... And the two women he deeply loved... loved him in return and remained permanently bonded with him."

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Jonathan Swift's 350th birthday was two days ago (when correcting his birthdate with Gregorian calendar).

His correct DOB Is Nov 30, 1677. Trying to "correct" it to the Georgian calendar is... unusual. The Gregorian calendar was not in use in 1677. If you wanted to cast a chart for him, you'd use Nov 30, 1677 in either Solar Fire or Astrodienst's astro.com, or you'd be casting an incorrect chart. Most astrological software uses the Julian calendar for dates before the Gregorian calendar was in use because that's what the ephemeris files use.

the Libra sign project thread, I tried to suss out "archetypal" Libras (people who display many or pronounced typical Libra traits). So I want to start a trend where I do that for every sign, eventually. (I am as typical a Sagittarius as they come.)

Yeah, you can certainly start your own thread for that. Put it under
Home Natal Astrology The Constellations - Discussion
and maybe call it
By Jove's thoughts on archetypes
You can move your posts in the Libra thread over there to start it off. It'd be really helpful to separate your descriptions from these threads which are for observations of actual people.

Great idea, ByJove. Go for it!

[Jim Eshelman]

On Jonathan Swift, you're a decade off. He was born Nov 390, 1667 (not 1677) in Dublin, Ireland. We even have a possible time as 11:00 AM, but of unknown provenance so we can't rely on it carefully. (Originally it came from Edward Lyndoe, who tended to be pretty good about such things but was known to use imperfect data at times.)

He had, of course, a Scorpio Sun, and Moon was opposite it in Taurus. He was born the day of a lunar eclipse that was probably total, since the lunar node are within a degree of Sun. If the time is correct, he was born was born at the rising of Neptune (and, nearby, Saturn).

But, in any case, he's a Scorpio.

[By Jove]

But, in any case, he's a Scorpio.

Yeah, he's a pretty typical desert crawler. It's hard to find another reptile as typical as he is, except maybe Lucky Luciano as a malevolent counterpart. Wait until me with Sag next month though.

Yeah, you can certainly start your own thread for that. Put it under
Home Natal Astrology The Constellations - Discussion
and maybe call it
By Jove's thoughts on archetypes
You can move your posts in the Libra thread over there to start it off. It'd be really helpful to separate your descriptions from these threads which are for observations of actual people.

Why not! I thought describing Jonathan Swift was an observation and how it related to his Sun Sign in this thread, but I will happily make a new thread if you wish. When I say "archetype" I don't mean to confuse it with mythology. I mean it in a mundane way, like a typical example or a general mold a certain group of people fall under. Swift and Luciano, two examples for Scorpio, are emblematic and exaggerations but most Scorpio Sun/Moon people fall under the general mold.

And of course this applies to all the other signs. It applies to Orwell and Kafka for Gemini; Oscar Wilde and Erasmus for Libra; Darwin and Lincoln for Aquarius; Houdini and Gary Oldman for Pisces; Robespierre and Lenin for Aries; Louis XIV and Tolstoy for Leo etc. etc.

And of course there's a whole other world for Moon signs etc. etc.

[Jim Eshelman]

Wilde is a Virgo. A phenomenal, classic Virgo, 29°44'.

He was born Oct 16, 19854, 3:00 AM, Dublin, Ireland, AA birth data.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Why not! I thought describing Jonathan Swift was an observation and how it related to his Sun Sign in this thread...

Jim started this project of twelve threads for observations of people we know well. Somehow, I am having trouble getting my head around your knowing Swift, or even Marciano very well.
Archtypes will be more useful as a different thread.

And of course there's a whole other world for Moon signs etc. etc.

Absolutely, and as Jim said when he started this project, we're going to do Moon signs as well, after we're done with sun signs.

[FlorencedeZ.]

There's an important movie about Winston Churchill coming out about now. Since Gary Oldman is the lead, the acting will be flawless, and the whole probably will be a great example of Scorpio Sun.

Last night I saw the movie Darkest Hour, the 2017 war drama film. Starring Gary Oldman as Winston Churchill, and is an account of his early days as Prime Minister, as Nazi Germany swept across Western Europe, threatening to defeat the United Kingdom during World War II.

Thanks for reccommending the movie Jim. His acting was indeed flawless and the film was awesome. Very very impressive.
It definitely is a great example of Scorpio Sun.

' We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.'
Winston Churchill

[SteveS]

Yes Flo, an excellent historical movie with superb acting by Gary, certainly deserved the Oscar for best actor. And of course, a superb example for Scorpio Sun.

[Soft Alpaca]

Scorpio I believe is very much like the serpent (a Cobra or Mamba) highly aggressive, almost spear like, blunt but sharp (in word and deed). The need to unshakle themselves physically is expressed in acts of violence (ive noticed how even sex is like combat).
What I also think is very important is to note Scorpios love of drama (battle being there favored form) often gives them an apperence of being extroverted. This love of a high intensity situations is probably where some of the misunderstanding (Pluto=Scorpio) come from. I believe its very important to note this love of drama in all three "water" signs (just how there are undertones involving fire signs and there impact on society (the rebel, the king, and the elite).

[Jim Eshelman]

I can't think of any zodiacal group that embodies drama less than the Scorpio Sun people I know. Most of them are outright Spartan in he spoarse and austere sense.

Well, one good friend is an accomplished singer and actress, so it shows in her job, though "drama" is quite distant from her personal life and actual behavior. And there's one other that is kinda mentally disturbed and can't find much peace or grant it to anyone around her. But those are exceptions (and only the second one really fits). The closest thing to make me suspect any sense of drama or sensationalism is the extent to which one of them after the other has told me how much they hate that kind of thing.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I knew a Scorpio who was very dramatic. He was also drunk most of the time.
All the other Scorpios I know are very solid, steady people, mostly without a lot of imagination and happier for it.

[James Condor]

My Friend E was born December 6 1980 in Valparaiso Indiana. Unknown Birth time .His brother M was born December 14 1984 in Valparaiso Indiana. Unknown birth time

I played one year of JV football with M. That’s t how we met. We would talk on the bus and on the sidelines. Then we played two years of JV baseball together. We became friends for the next 10 years or so. M was the first person to bring me to a party with MaryJane.
Later while hanging out at M’s, I met his older brother E.
We mostly hung out separately not all three of us at once, but, it has happened where all three of us did.

M once told me later, that E went crazy when their mother died of cancer early 2000s. He would watch war films and military television obsessively I remember. I saw the basement room where he was staying back in his parents home. War documentaries were on.

Both guys are laid back. Funny. Polite. Inoffensive. Mature. Busy (in their own world) Emotionally Intelligent. Quiet (E) Nerds. They both show a need for space by not wanting attention in front of people (repel but prepared for being the center of attention) They seem to want frequent change and have always kept in the know of new trends. News. Both still play video games XBOX. Both love movies and music. Both have been the best sources of new music that I like. We don’t share the jazz fusion and blues taste, unfortunately. But most of everything else. Both enjoy sports but not like a Cancer or Taurus! (Cancer and Taurus have seem very die hard to me, and Libra.) E can dance. He showed me the way! Both are fun and cool. They don’t want to hang out all the time like routinely. Both are free, fun spirited but well behaved and not causing a scene.

I enjoyed talking with them. We could talk about many things, usually started by me, going into philosophical mode. M is outspoken and opinionated, but only in combat. Argues when you argue. Otherwise, neither tried to start anything with words or have ever physically.

E is quieter, softer voice and tone. Careful with his words. M has good instincts and wits but both are very subjective even when they are going into deep topics like religion, technology, science, Music, you name it. They aren’t college educated. They both take a ‘higher ground’ in not choosing an absolute, which I agree with to an extent and it’s circumstances. They do it naturally, then later in life figure out more as to why (I think). Both late bloomers. Not very popular or hanging out in large groups.

M is louder (Leo moon, Capricorn Mars). E is very quiet (Scorpio Moon, Sag Mars, Jupiter-Saturn) It took him awhile to start talking. Then he became arrogant at times in an inoffensive way. Neither are offensive or out of line in public nor anywhere I’ve experienced. Neither are mean/cruel, offensive, jerks or clowns. E is also sensitive to others opinions, the news. He really hates when people get exploited by smartphone videos posted online. Or just to show people you know a video exploiting someone.
When talking with E, you have to use your words wisely or you’ll know he doesn’t agree with it.

Neither got a ‘real job’ full time until their 30s. Both lived at their parents house until 30. M maybe movies out at 31-32. E was the same way-he has probably 32. E is mechanically talented as a tradesman. M works at a pot dispensary in Denver.

Both can handle drinking and drugs well. Both call you out on things that sound fake, insincere or some dumb opinion. When you do it back to them, they don’t like it, at all! The Scorpios I’ve met, are no match for me when it comes to argument. But, they try. They are emotional and deep down get mad and hold a grudge. E especially (Scorpio moon?)

[Soft Alpaca]

Edited

I will broil it down just to the Sun. The need for release of energy is pertinent (eg through sex, battle, etc.) if left unchecked the damage is forced out as volcanic, radiant physicality ; erupting into their environment, damaging others around them (but not always unapologeticly so). The release is often taken out in situations of high stress and tension (especially in those who know of their disposition and have very real remorse). Thus some seek high stress situations to keep themselves from harming the ones that they care for [this second half of the last line is speculation].

[Jim Eshelman]

Alpaca, I'm going to start deleting any posts about Scorpio Moon in this Scorpio Sun thread. I'll give you time, if you want, to move the above post to the corresponding Scorpio Moon thread if you like.

UPDATE: Purged the Moon content after he acknowledged this and had the chance to make changes.

[Jim Eshelman]

I have completed the full rewrite of Sun in Scorpio. (Thank you for your help.) Though the ultimate picture is not significantly different, the interpretation reads as different, looks different, places emphases differently. You can read the full version here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35&p=162#p162

The new summary is:

Strong drive, competitive (combative). Requires freedom of movement and thought. Sexually voracious. Persistent, powerful, innovative, insightful. Bold, moral courage, unbowed. Pragmatic. Thought leaders (not followers). Forthright, blunt. Wit, humor. Enjoys life. Slow to show weaknesses; collects others' weaknesses.

One more Sun-sign to go...

[By Jove]

It always bothered me though how small your primary section notes on Scorpio and Aries are compared to the other signs. Maybe I'm being neurotic, but I always wished it equalized.

Yes, you've mentioned it before. I think it's that Scorpio, in particular, is much simpler and straightforward. It's not about complexitis. (Aries is another matter: In some ways, it's highly complex, though most of that complexity is addressed in one or two statements about its inherently paradoxical nature.)

So, yes, either it's neurotic or you should be an editor. A respected magazine editor once commented that, when I'd write something about signs, I never made all the sections the same length. For the magazine and its readership, that's what they wanted. I said that I didn't have as much to say about some as the others.

A few things I noticed:
While Scorpio has a small preliminary section, it's summaries (Sun, Moon, and Mars) are some of the largest. In other words, when everything is boiled to its substance. And it matches how Scorpio luminaries tend to be laconic.

And while Scorpio as a sign seems simple, actual Scorpios are anything but. It may be Scorpios as a whole are very diverse compared to other signs, so they share only a few "core traits". Even an individual Scorpio tends to change a lot through life, even flipping 180 in beliefs, style, behavior, etc. It's hard to believe they're the same person.

[Jim Eshelman]

I think our new Scorpio President's inaugural address today is a great example of how to pack enormous power into sparse language.

[Soft Alpaca]

I think that scorpio needs to be rebranded as having raw power, less harsh force..