Sun in Cancer - sign project

[Jim Eshelman]

Welcome to the Sun in Cancer discussions project, which will run July 17 - August 16, 2017 (and then will remain around in case people want to revisit it in the future). Please gather your list of Sun in Cancer people (especially those you know personally) and join us.

Here are Sun in Cancer interpretive resources on the forum:
Primary section: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p158
Garth Allen: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33#p133
Cyril Fagan: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=101#p625
Rupert Gleadow: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=91#p561
Manilius: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=121#p741

Additionally:
"Systemry & Cancer" (Garth Allen) http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=146
The "Constellated" Horoscope (Cyril Fagan) viewtopic.php?f=14&t=141

[Jim Eshelman]

I've been looking forward to this particular one. I suspect that my standard interpretations for Cancer need some work.

From the beginning, I was heavily influenced by Fagan's way of discussing the signs. During the first generation of Siderealists, quite a lot of the sign interpretation was spent distinguishing the Sidereal interpretations from the overlapping Tropical ones. For example, it was common to describe Cancers as Leo-wannabees, and to say that (Tropical) Aries was often the best role that Pisces could find to play! At some point over the decades, I mostly switched my thinking to longer caring what the Tropical-minded thought, and speaking of the Sidereal zodiac in its own terms. But I never went back to thoroughly revisit and revise the core material we identified in the late '70s.

To a great extent, that's what these monthly sign projects are about - to force that revisitation.

I think my Sun in Cancer interpretations still have the "failed Leo" tone, rather than defining Cancers in their own terms; i.e., I think I've defined them too much in terms of what they are not, and too little in terms of what they are. Cancer makes that so easy! There are traits sooooo much like Tropical Leo because of the luminary quality of its real (lunar) rulership - the luminary quality is there, but it's really lunar, not solar. The social elevation elements are from Jupiter instead of Sun - easy to confuse those, also. And yet, the more I've learned what angular Suns are like, the clearer it has been that Sidereal Leo resembles them, not Tropical Leo.

As a lunar, type, it's so natural for Cancer to hunger for the Sun. That's what Moon does best! Add to that the cultural impact of these people having been told all their lives that they are Leos, and the natural actor tendency and imagery-adoption and building of personal mythos about oneself of Cancer, and a lot of them really are chasing the Leo identity.

But we don't serve them best by defining them in terms of what they aren't. I need new language and new points of view, such as I've been drawing out with Aries, Taurus, and Gemini over the last year or so. (IU just hadn't gotten to Cancer yet.)

So, as I said, I've been looking forward to this particular month's project perhaps more than any of the others.

[Arena]

Sooooo it is Cancer already! I have not had a lot of time to participate in these solar threads and am not sure I will add a lot to this one. As you know I have my reservations about the Cancer within me, but that can of course be due to many other factors of influence. And this I have pointed out a couple of times before. The Sun sign does only tell a little part of a story as it is in my own case.

But I know a few Cancers such as my father with Sun at 0,01° Cancer if FB is used. I know a long-term politician with Sun in Cancer, a lawyer neighbour, an artist singer, a doctor friend very ambitious, another older doctor (father of a friend). All very different people, but all very very likeable (except maybe my father who is very blunt and very different from the other people I've noted here- but he may possibly have an angular Mars).

[Antares5]

As you know I have my reservations about the Cancer within me, but that can of course be due to many other factors of influence.

Me too. I was going through all the Sun/Moon sign descriptions and if I didn't know my horoscope I would say that I am least likely to be a Cancer or Libra Sun.

On the other hand, the sign description of Cancer fits my cousin (whos also my best buddy) very well. I knew he was a Virgo Sun but I didn't know his complete horoscope. I put in the birth data and, as expected,he was a Cancer Moon.

The other person who fits the Cancer Sun really well is my mother. But she is a double Capricorn and her only planet in Cancer is Mars. Could it be that the Sun/Moon conjunction is that what's "smelling" like a Cancer Sun?

[Jim Eshelman]

The Mars-sign is nearly as strong a factor as the luminary signs.

[Lance]

I have two close friends who are Cancerians.

Both are always hosting people at their homes. In each of their respective circles, they are the hangout and its host. Both are always telling stories of the crazy things that happened to them and what they did in response. It's always a dramatic tale of what their boss did, or a crazy family member.

Both are so very proud of being (Tropical) Leos. They'll never convert to sidereal because it would mean they would have to give up this deeply beloved title. But it makes sense with the idea that they are always telling stories where they face heroic struggles.

Both are mystical, though one's a pagan and the other a progressive Christian.

Both are very extremely dedicated to their friends.

[Lance]

Would you say it is the hero motif that distinguishes Cancer from Pisces?

Anything else?

[Jim Eshelman]

Would you say it is the hero motif that distinguishes Cancer from Pisces?

Anything else?

Oh, a great deal more.

But I think you might be onto something. Pisces (in general) is willing to play any good role - tragedy, comedy, heroic, pathetic - the more pathos, the better. Cancer, though, is hungry for the Sun, to fill the cavernous empty gap of not being the Sun. (It is the Sun that is the Hero archetype.) So I do think Cancer is more inclined to generate fantasies that have them be the hero of the saga (speaking in generalizations).

Nothing has hurt Cancers in our time more than the Legend of Being Leo. It incites their imaginations like heroin to an addict, and makes it easier to miss the real miracle of their themed souls: The miracle of being hollow and capable of containing.

[Lance]

The bit at the end about being hollow and containing...

I'm having trouble making the connection between that aspect of Cancer and Moon/Jupiter characteristics.

Anybody got an image for that? What makes Moon/Jupiter fillable? Receptivity of the Moon and desire for highest and best of Jupiter?

Hmm.

[Jim Eshelman]

It's totally lunar: The essence of the womb is containment.

It's the root archetypal expression of Cancer: Every type of creature that has represented Cancer across all cultures has been something that lives in a shell. That is often taken as some need for protection as if the creature inside the shell were the main point. Actually, I think it's the shell itself, the container, the context, the matrix that is the main point

[Lance]

Finally! That's clicking for me.

I have really needed to go through the signs like this.

Thanks.

[Antares5]

What I noticed is that there are many bodybuilders, both professionals and casuals, with Sun in Cancer.

I've been working out since my teenage years. And there are at least 5 people I knew, with Sun in Cancer, who were also very enthusiastic about the gym. One of them owned a gym. 2 of them were friends who trained with me in my early twenties. One is my cousin and football player, with whom i've trained together when I was in my hometown. The last one is the husband of a cousin who is actually a competitive bodybuilder (Don't know if I can call him a "professional" as the payouts for winning these competitions aren't really that great).

On top of that there are many actors with Sun in Cancer who are actively working out. And, of course, there are the professionals like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Columbu, Jay Cutler etc. (these are just on top of my head, with the most titles, but I am sure there are more of them).

So what do you think is it that draws Cancer Suns into bodybuilding? Could this be the hard shell motif ? The need of looking tough on the outside?

[Jim Eshelman]

Presuming this observation holds up more generally, I would attribute it to Cancer's need to "look good" (in several different ways, but including drawing positive, admiring attention to themselves).

Cancer, especially in youth, is fairly athletic. I can easily draw to mind several from high school and college who were always naturals at taking in the "hero worship" good athletes receive. The two statistical findings that support the interest is one study of college athletes not sorted by sport, and the large study of NFL players where Cancer scored high in general (while other signs seemed more inclined to specialize by type of position).

[Jim Eshelman]

This does sound a lot like Tropical Leo. That's always kind of been the point with Sidereal Cancer: Some of their traits (based on Moon and Jupiter) are exactly what we expect from Sun, and many others are because they are striving to live up a popular Leo ideal.

The difference is that Tropical Leo - and all Tropical sign - resoundingly, demonstrably doesn't exist. There are no effective 12-fold segments of the zodiac that begin at 30° multiples from the current position of the Vernal Equinox. On the other hand, there is abundant evidence that there are effective 12-fold segments of the zodiac that begin at 30° multiples of a place currently about 5-6° before the current position of the vernal equinox.

[Antares5]

One must, however, not look at overt (surface, outwardly expressed) behaviors so much as the deep motivations beneath them.

Easier said than done. How do you recognize the deep motivations in people? I struggle to see the Sun signs even in people I've known for years (including myself). Moon sign, on the other hand, is easy to recognize.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I think Jim was suggesting a Cancer who doesn't see herself in her sun's position should take a look at her own deeper motivations. It was a little off-topic for this thread. If anyone wants to discuss this further, perhaps it would be a good idea to start new thread?

The purpose of this thread, and the other sun "sign" threads is to create a base of observed characteristics, which Jim will be synthesizing into new definitions. Once the basic definitions are based on observation, maybe we'll have an easier time guessing sun positions in other people. But we'll definitely have a better handle on what the Sun in X means.

[DDonovanKinsolving]

Keeping in mind the case of my Sun-Cancer friend "Ajax" mentioned in another thread:

He seems to crave attention and thrives on positive reinforcement, and withers under negative. Here is what I think is a solid example of how Tropicalists would bend their interpretations to rationalize what they're seeing in the Sidereal Zodiac. As Siderealist David Henry once wrote in a letter in American Astrology, (paraphrasing) the blending of the two zodiacs takes place in the mind of the astrologer, not in actual fact.

Sidereal Cancer Suns get their sense of importance from the attention they get, excessively so. A Tropicalist would liken this to the Sun "needing" to be accompanied by a retinue of planets. But the Sun (and SZ Leo) don't need validation, they simply act and give and don't care all that much about who plays the roles of receiving their gifts or following their orders. Read "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" and Zarathustra's soliloquy to the Sun to get a better idea of this.

[Arena]

Primary section: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p158
My answers below in italics

SUN IN CANCER, the Crab

Imagery. Revises, 'edits,' and enhances things incessantly.
No more than other signs/people.

STORY TELLING. Great at physical and vocal inflection (Not sure), can shift moods quickly and easily. (Yes, from good to bad - but not as easily from bad to good again) Tendency to flower things a little or dramatize a situation (Not at all, hate drama and try to mitigate drama when other people try to dramatize). Persuasive (I guess I can be).

Loves center stage. "Darling of the crowd." (I am certainly capable of being in the spotlight, so sometimes yes - if I am in that kind of mood, but sometimes just quiet)

Sensitivity gives most imaginative writers and artists; also makes them extremely touchy, moody, vacillating.
I can be sensitive to people as in "sensing" how they feel or what they are about to say - but am not a good writer nor artist although I did write some poetry/stories and draw a lot as a child.

Deep sense of insufficiency, for he lives only on borrowed prestige. Uses fertile imagination to create an image of grandeur about himself. DREAM-WEAVERS (or WEB-WEAVERS).
Hahahah, no sense of insufficiency at all and am not sure what "borrowed prestige" actually means, but am pretty sure it does not apply to myself. The "prestige" I have gained is certainly earned.

Self-centered and self-oriented (selfish). (Most eminent bachelors! N.B. Jupiter theme is interesting in this since Sagittarius and Pisces were the next most common.)
Hmmm... not sure what to say here. I do not consider myself self-centered because I am certainly capable of thinking and caring about other people. But I would most certainly use those exact words about my sister who is born just a couple of days before me, she is indeed very self-centered and self-oriented. My partner sometimes says this about me though when he gets irritated. But when it comes to mysef I think I would rather use the word self-sufficient, content with self.

Very adaptable. Yes
Several business ventures going at once. No, not really, although I probably could, but I only have one business venture going now.
Frequently unemployed - Cancer in toto excels in fewer professions than any other constellation, although motivated individual Cancers do quite well.
Have hardly ever been unemployed. Started working small jobs when I was about 9 yrs, worked full time "grown-up-work" every summer from age 12. Those occasions where I've been unemployed has happened in my life it has been my own choice. Have tried many different kinds of jobs and have no difficulty in taking on all kinds of jobs even though I haven't had any training.

Ardent, covetous, sense of urgency. Not really

MODEL-BUILDING. Bias toward systemmry, schematics, and creating complex structures (Weltanschauung).
Need to uncover or disclose, to solve or create problems. Constantly putting together puzzles or discovering something.
I did indeed to model-building as a kid and enjoyed that. Never do so anymore and have never been "constantly" doing so, but enjoy the occasional puzzle - probably no more than most other people.
My discoveries today come through the world of astrology and research that interest me.

Always manage to solve problems for others - not for themselves. Born psychologists. "Confessional."
Yes, it seems so. But am also capable of solving my own as well. It seems that people "naturally" confide in me, just tell me everything, trust me.

Strongly sensitive and attuned to others, can "see right through" ruses.
Yes usually.

SHADOW motif. Subversive sense, involved in occult, often psychic (cf. Jung).
I don't know what shadow motif means. Am not psychic or involved in anything occult except for astrology. Used to like tarots when was younger. But I do not exclude the possibility of other dimensions.

Fault finding (due to jealousy?). Careful, insists on accuracy. Afraid of being caught wrong.
Only felt jealous when I was younger and in love. Jealousy does not occur to me otherwise. Am critical.

Tenacious memories - retain knowledge easily.
Not really good with memory. Very forgetful. Even to the point that I've been made fun of for my forgetfulness.

Studious. Self-improvement oriented.
Yes.

Masters of organization with great talent for delegating authority and heading operations from the executive chair.
Yes.

Stick to home, patriotic (Francis Scott Key). Nepotism.
No.

Politics, political science, etc.
Yes.

Chefs, "kitchen entertainers." Home oriented.
I like to invite people over, but I think many people like that, so not really just a Cancer thing.

"A friend in need." Cherishes friendships and fulfils his obligations to friends willingly. "Mothers" others (friends, pets, etc.)
Yes. I help people if I possibly can.

As a parent, overly possessive and "mothering." ('Jewish mothers' - as well as Jewish children!)
No not at all. I encourage my children to be independent and self-reliant. Although I am there for them and protect them as any healthy person will protect their children, I have never met any mother that encourages their children more than I do to climb trees, and then climb up again when they fall, learn how to properly handle a knife at a young age and question rules.

This seems to be about 50/50 and many of the things I said yes to in this one is something that many other signs can say yes to as well, so maybe not particularly Cancerian.

[Arena]

...and on to this one:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33#p133

My answers in italics

CANCER
The Magian Soul

1. Uncanny ability to create "systems" - Weltanschauung.
No not really.

2. "Curiosity" a primary trait YES- constantly putting puzzles together NO, finding out things, solving and creating mysteries NO, except for astrology.

3. Decidedly self-centered - religious but not sympnathic.
No

4. Too "eager" and "graspy" for most people. "Intent on gain."
No

5. Messiah complex - will always manage to solve your problems for you.
Yes, will try.

6. Great at histrionics and gesticulation - can vacillate moods quickly (story teller).
No, not really - unless I am passionate about the subject.

7. Highly intuitive - looks right through you.
Yes.

8. Often loses good friends from SUSPICIOUS NATURE.
No.

9. Imagery is their most amazing faculty - can schematize and "technicolor" things endlessly.
No.

10. "Born" psychologists - can persuade any time.
I guess.

11. Ill-suited for political career though concerned about things political.
Probably would be well suited if I decided to pursue it, and am indeed concerned.

12. Intensive drive to find fault - although he numbers "publicans and sinners" among his friends without batting an eye.
No, not really. But am critical.

13. Marvelous memory - has to learn things only once.
No.

14. Aligned to UNREALISM - "MAGIAN" - gravitates from "Apollonian forms." (Revels in occultism, numb to nomothetic viewpoints.)
Not sure what this actually means, but I think it does not apply to me.

15. Shadow effect.
What is that?

16. Fantastic population of "unusual characters" springs from Cancer.

17. Very adaptable.
Yes

18. Manilius: "Set too fast a rate on TIME itself."
Not sure what this means.

[Arena]

Continuing with Fagan, my answers in italics:

Sun in Cancer
Report this post Quote
Unread post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 08, 2017 11:11 pm

<MOON home, JUPITER exalted. SATURN detriment, MARS fall.>

1. Denotes feeling, passion, and emotion rather than thought. Quiet, unobtrusive manner.
No. I emphasize listening to both hearth and head, both feelings and logic/thought - but in some cases just logic. I am the one amongst my friends who will always say to them when they are in deep emotional trouble or blinded by love - to also use their heads in reaching a conclusion in emotional matters, weigh the positives and negatives on scales.

2. Hyper-normal imagination and sensitivity. The image-creating faculty may be so strong as to cause Cancer to mistake their own mental projections for reality; thus, they can suffer from delusions.
No, not at all

3. Some of the greatest imaginative writers, dramatists, actors, painters, poets,reporters.
Well, there might be those that have Venus or Neptune prominent - but not this one.

4. Fundamentally, Cancer suffers from a deep sense of inner insufficiency or even nothingness, which they resent. To offset this, the unintelligent types live in a world of make-believe, playing all sorts of roles from hero to martyr. Center stages suits him well, he is forever playing a part in the attempt to inflate the ego, or else fisalizes himself as a Mahatma wielding potent powers. Sometimes these stories are believed and gain wide circulation, but are eventually exposed (an event Cancer dreads most).
No, not at all.

5. Finds greatest joy in his home, children, mother church, mother country, his pronounced sense of patriotism, etc.
No. I find joy in my home and children - but sometimes just need time off from all that. No "mother church, mother country or patriotism". I guess my Uranus makes me more of a universal human being - open to everything.

6. Generous to his own children to a fault. Frequently accused of nepotism. Takes his greatest pride in their achievements. Is disconsolate at their failures. Identifies himself completely with then (their successes and failures being his).
I do love my children like most healthy people do, but this is very far from the truth.

7. Lover of sports. His manner becomes transformed as a sports spectator, as he identifies with the home team, shouting and cajoling it to victory.
No, I hate that.

8. Hypersensitive, touchy, moody, soon angered, as quickly moved to tears.
Yes - not often to tears though. But can be moody/tempered.

9. The mysterious & occult hold a strange fascination.
Some of it, like astrology, fascinates me. I consider other dimensions and Aliens - but do not involve myself much with that.

10. Generous to a fault. Cannot refrain from helping the seemingly undeserving.
I like to help if I can, but wouldn't say "undeserving".

11. In their element in any activity that brings them face to face with the general public, catering to its needs, especially if the fair sex is involved (e.g., working in hotels, supermarkets, coffee bars, night cubs, etc.).
No, not at all in the way this is being presented. I like to communicate with the public through political debate or NGO's and such, but I actually hate anything that has to do with "service" of the conventional kind that is mentioned here.

[Arena]

Rupert Gleadow is kinda similar to those others and is mostly off in my case, although some few things are true. Again, answers in italics.

The Character of CANCER

"...sidereal Cancerians love showing off, telling stories and playing to the gallery... artificial jolliness needed to evoke a good response in the public... Sometimes, but not as a general rule - and I can sometimes just be a quiet, but responsive listener.

[Cancerians] mean what they say at the time they say it, because they respond so readily to others; it is only important that they should have self-knowledge enough to recognize whether they are being sincere or not."
Hahaha, I find this a bit offensive since I am very sincere myself. He makes it sound like Cancers would just adjust their response to what people want, but I am a genuine person with genuine response to others and am not afraid or shy to have my own opinions.

"...love of good food yes
and a tendency to literature..."No not really.

"Cancer, like Aries, is easier to describe by its vices than its virtues... Cancer... appears to be more interested in phenomena than in their meaning; he likes to know what happens, in contrast to his opposite sign Capricorn, who is sometimes a little careless about what actually happens if he thinks he can fathom why it happens. Cancer, though sometimes a dreamer, is very rarely out of touch, because he likes to know what is going on; he may be guilty of misinterpretation, but his theories will not be remote from fadts. He is affable, popular, familiar, and does not feel that in agreeing with others he is having to make allowances for them."
No, not true. I am curious about things and want to both "know what happens" as well as "why and how it happens". I certainly do not agree with others just to please them. Am not afraid to swim against the currents and may choose to do so for the challenge of it, rather than go with mainstream.


"...often a manager, and excels as the popular comedian, the convention organizer, the public relations officer... He is thick-skinned, not as sensitive as he appears, but easily influenced by emotional situations... changeable, but only on the surface...
I guess yes.

wants to agree with people, to be one of the clan, to be in the swim, and consequently plays up to every situation, so much so that he is accused of insincerity and hypocrisy. From his point of view, this is unfair; he want to give others the opportunity of being right, even if they disagree among themselves.
Not at all.

His face is rarely in repose, and he is a bit of an actor, the typical politician in a democratic country... Cancer incarnates the popular feeling and thus becomes the natural mouthpiece of the people...
Politics interest me, but not in this sense, as it being acting or insincere.

imaginative sympathy...
Yes, I guess so.

makes a novelist and story-teller...
No.

always ready to make or to hear confessions about the private lives of himself and others.
Yes.

"But underneath the lunar changefulness, Cancer knows what he wants and is getting it, and in order to have some element of security in his mind he is usually obliged to be conventional in his ideas and firmly attached to his family, country, employer, political party, or some other anchor. He is often also a journalist, a gossip and flatterer, the universal joint of social life who knows a little of everything and gets on well with everyone."
No.

"As parents... too indulgent and too possessive
No.

in later life they tend to become fat, lazy, and badly dressed.
No, can be lazy at times, but not in this sense as in becoming fat and badly dressed. I will always look good

They dislike militarism,
Yes.

but are said to have very good memories...
Well, not this one.

with a taste for history, antiques, and knickknacks.
Yes.

...self-doubt... they live in a fantasy world and readily identify themselves with some mother-figure such as the Church or State, the party, country or local football team. They seem to suffer easily from inferiority feelings... they project their ego onto an organization; others pose, boast, or get drunk... They practice nepotism and expect others to be sympathetic and let them profit by it, but their pride is easily punctured...
This keeps repeating, and it is so far from the truth that it just sounds ridiculous.

good at business, conscientious and not mean...
I guess so.

typically the extravert who finds truth outside himself.
No. I would say I am very mixed, sometimes can be extrovert at times when I feel I'd like to socialize with people ... but sometimes very introvert and just self-sufficient, just enjoy being alone without being lonely.

[Arena]

These both just sound really ridiculous to me;
Manilius: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=121#p741
"Systemry & Cancer" (Garth Allen) http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=146

Sorry, but I just think they sound silly.

[Jim Eshelman]

Got it

I'm starting to think that your birth time is exact to the precise minute as recorded, except the date is a few weeks off <joking!>.

Thanks for doing this, Arena.

PS - You did, of course, pick a nom de guerre, for use here, which means "center stage."

[Arena]

Got it

I'm starting to think that your birth time is exact to the precise minute as recorded, except the date is a few weeks off <joking!>.

Thanks for doing this, Arena.

Hahaha, yes wouldn't that be something!
No problem, it's been interesting to go through all those again, been a while since I did.

IF there is anything at all to the signs, then I do think that the luminary signs might quite resemble each other. And I don't say this because of "wishful thinking" ... which I think is rather demeaning to say ... I say this because of observations.

PS - You did, of course, pick a nom de guerre, for use here, which means "center stage."

Yeah, I guess I did.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Arena, isn't your sun middleground and devoid of any aspects within 5 or 6°? So wouldn't that mean it isn't expressive, and it also isn't conspicuous by it's absence? Would that perhaps explain why your Sun constellation doesn't show much influence in your personality, while someone else, with lots of Sun aspects and/or a foreground sun might show the "Sun Sign" strongly?

[Arena]

No JSAD.
My Sun is within 15° from DSC in mundo. Don't remember where the cutoff point for foreground is...if it is 15°, then it is foreground, if it is 10°, then yes it is middleground.

It is sextile Uranus (4,14°) and my Uranus is angular or square an angle - so that aspect is quite prominent.

Like I've said before, I do think those with angular Suns will express their Suns' aspects in a much more prominent way. But I am not convinced they express any "Sun sign". Sun is Sun and Sun-Mercury is Sun-Mercury, whatever signs are involved. I believe in planetary expressions, not sign expressions. However, I think the signs might have a role and that role being to tell us whether planets are exalted or debilitated. But I can keep that for the other thread

[Jim Eshelman]

I've never found that the angularity of a luminary determines whether it expresses its sign quality. This was something Anna-Kria, Matthew, and I particularly looked at back in the '70s because there was an opinion in play among Southern California Siderealists that your luminary signs were more expressive if the luminary was angular, so we looked - and could find no indication this was true. People with nonangular luminaries expressed the sign position quite fully.

To take an obvious "first example" - do you consider me non-Virgo with a middleground, mostly unaspected Sun? (One of many.)

Now, with a Leo I'd have to say that the sign traits are even more obvious with an angular Sun
Arena, "middleground" is as good a description of your Sun as any, even though historic use of the term means centered around the succedent cusps. Your Sun is about half-way between maximum foreground (Descendant, the angle) and maximum background (6th cusp, cadency), so it's about mid-level in the angularity curve.

We have different views on the importance of your Uranus, though. It's hard for me to consider a single aspect, middle-to-wide orb, and at that a "soft" aspect, as a marking powerfully aspected Sun. You have three planets more angular, and four planets stronger, than Uranus.

I can't say definitively why Cancer shows so badly for you. (I have theories, of course, but I'm not going to say "This is it!") Partly, I think the Cancer interpretations have problems either intrinsically or because they have always had expressions that particularly don't speak to Cancers. (I still have to do my part of taking all of this information and revetting against Cancers - I haven't even had time to compile my list of personally known Cancers, so I have weeks of work on this once I get to it.) Partly, some of the traits are flatly wrong, or the emphasis and weight is wrong, or phrases are picked that might speak to non-Cancers about Cancers, but certainly don't speak to Cancers about Cancers. (You have to talk to each sign or other personality type from inside it's own perspective.)

But also, I can't miss the fact that your two strongest planetary expressions overall are Mars and Saturn - the two planets most in-Cancer. I'm not used to seeing even that sort of pattern overwhelm something as important as a Sun-sign so thoroughly - normally it would create a polarity with strong intrapsychic to be fought out within the psyche and some very dynamic behavior as a consequence, and both sides finding vivid expression. And, after the Mars and Saturn, your next two strongest planets are Jupiter and Neptune, which give much more of a feel like Cancer than not.

So... I don't really know where this will shake out. Not knowing you other than what comes through on the forum - which is limited - makes it more difficult, though I'm appreciative that you jumped in.

BTW, the shadow motif you said you didn't understand was addressed in more detail in one or the other of the Bradly articles linked. It's not a concrete expression of behavior, but more of an intrapsychic theme that keeps emerging, with the very word "shadow" coming up central in the lives of many Cancers, just repetitive enough to grab attention. Some common examples are that most of the actors who played The Shadow on the radio were Cancers. Jung made the term popular as a theme in psychoanalysis. Rembrandt introduced darkness and shade to portraiture, as if it were a color itself. Shadow seems to be the lunar complement of the Light theme of Sun, and connects to such things as nighttime, intrauterine maternity links, imagery related to subconsciousness, and especially appears co-existing with, and in contrast to, light. It ties into Cancer's mystical side (no Sun-sign scored higher for the character trait "mystical" in the Gauquelin collection). As I said, not a lot of explicit behaviors from this, but a persistent theme that keeps breaking through in Cancer lives. (I know a lot or Cancers with [usually well-hidden] pockets of darkness in their psyches, much more than other types overall, but that may not be consistent enough. Among celebrities, think Robin Williams, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Whitney Houston, among others.) But that's what those notes were talking about.

[Arena]

your two strongest planetary expressions overall are Mars and Saturn

Why do you say Mars? Because of the square to the Moon? Mercury has a tighter square to Moon than Mars does.

Most angular planets at birthplace are Saturn and Jupiter and my Sun is actually very close to Jupiter's exaltation degree. But then there is that crazy Uranus square to the MC or right on that Azimuth angle.

[Jim Eshelman]

your two strongest planetary expressions overall are Mars and Saturn

Why do you say Mars? Because of the square to the Moon? Mercury has a tighter square to Moon than Mars does.

Yes. Or, more fully, Aries Moon square Mars.

Most angular planets at birthplace are Saturn and Jupiter and my Sun is actually very close to Jupiter's exaltation degree. But then there is that crazy Uranus square to the MC or right on that Azimuth angle.

I don't take squares to MC past 2° and, for your stated birth time at least, Uranus is about 3° away. (I don't remember where it falls for your alternate birth time). Uranus does fall mundanely on Vertex, which you give more importance than I do; in particular, I don't give it a "foregroundness" quality.

But your Uranus is strong - as are many planets. Mars, Uranus, and Pluto are all about 8° from angles, which is certainly close enough to count, though three other planets are closer (and Mars gets its own distinct emphasis aside from angularity, as mentioned above).

For your stated birth time, Saturn is 1°40' above Ascendant - intensely close and on one of the two strongest angles. Jupiter and Neptune come next, at 2°16' and 3°35', respectively (but on a less powerful angle, if the Gauquelin studies are to be taken seriously, as I think they should be). I think if you reread the Kid Gloves article on Saturn, you'll find that almost everything you attribute to Uranus in your character is overtly discussed as rooted in Saturn.

[Arena]

Am going to have a look at Kid's Gloves tonight and read all about both Saturn and Uranus and will get back to you

Am pretty sure that Moon-Mercury aspect is pretty important as well and brings that ultra sensibility into my emotional life (and advice to friends).

[Antares5]

Maybe it will help if I also post my take on the descriptions of Sun in Cancer. I am, like Arena, a bit sceptical about them. Most of them are at best 50-50 hits, or the exact opposite. There are few very striking descriptions. Contrary to the Moon sign descritpion , which is very accurate.

Imagery. Revises, 'edits,' and enhances things incessantly.

No.

STORY TELLING. Great at physical and vocal inflection, can shift moods quickly and easily. Tendency to flower things a little or dramatize a situation. Persuasive.

This is true to some extent. I don't see myself as a story teller, but I do dramatize a situation sometimes.

Loves center stage. "Darling of the crowd."

Can't say that I love center stage. I am indifferent to it.

Sensitivity gives most imaginative writers and artists; also makes them extremely touchy, moody, vacillating.

I don't like writing or arts. I just think they're useless. I don't know if I could be a "touchy, moody, vacillating" writer, cause I wouldn't pursue this profession in the first place.

Deep sense of insufficiency, for he lives only on borrowed prestige. Uses fertile imagination to create an image of grandeur about himself. DREAM-WEAVERS (or WEB-WEAVERS).

I only have a feeling of insufficiency when I do something half-assed. I am trying to avoid that as much as I can.

Living on borrowed prestige? I hope not. I don't like people helping me out or borrowing anything to me, let alone my own prestige.

Uses fertile imagination to create an image of grandeur about himself? No, I am not schizophrenic.

Self-centered and self-oriented (selfish). (Most eminent bachelors! N.B. Jupiter theme is interesting in this since Sagittarius and Pisces were the next most common.)

Self-centered - yes,
Self-oriented (selfish) - not at all, I am actually very generous

Very adaptable. Several business ventures going at once. ("Young Men & Women of Achievement")

This is one of the few descriptions which I consider strikingly accurate. I have my own job, I help my father with his business and I got some smaller investments and trades going on.

Frequently unemployed - Cancer in toto excels in fewer professions than any other constellation, although motivated individual Cancers do quite well.

Not at all.

Ardent, covetous, sense of urgency.

Ardent - yes
Covetous - no
Sense of urgency - NO. I have a sense of urgency only when I am under an obligation or a forced shedule. I hate both of them.

MODEL-BUILDING. Bias toward systemmry, schematics, and creating complex structures (Weltanschauung).

Complex structures and the like are really not my thing. I always try to keep it as short and precise as possible.

Need to uncover or disclose, to solve or create problems. Constantly putting together puzzles or discovering something.

Need to uncover - yes. I am curious by nature.

Always manage to solve problems for others - not for themselves. Born psychologists. "Confessional."

I don't think that I help my friends any more or less than any other friend would do. But the thing about confessions is interesting, as I often find myself in a situation where people just spill out their secrets when they talk to me in private. Not only friends, but sometimes even people I knew for no more than 5 minutes.

Strongly sensitive and attuned to others, can "see right through" ruses.

Not sensitive or attuned to others, but seeing through ruses is correct.

SHADOW motif. Subversive sense, involved in occult, often psychic (cf. Jung).

Yeah, I am interested in anything undiscovered or secretive, including some occult matters. Don't know if I am psychic tough, I guess not.

Fault finding (due to jealousy?). Careful, insists on accuracy. Afraid of being caught wrong.

Careful - No
Insist on accuracy - Yes
Afraid of being caught wrong - Not at all. I don't mind being wrong sometimes, I share freely what's on my mind at any point.

Tenacious memories - retain knowledge easily. Studious. Self-improvement oriented.

This is the other description which I find strikingly accurate, especially the self-improvement thing.

Masters of organization with great talent for delegating authority and heading operations from the executive chair.

Not sure about this one. I give it a 50-50.

Stick to home, patriotic (Francis Scott Key). Nepotism. Politics, political science, etc.

This one is very wrong, as I actually hate my country of birth. Politicians digust me. Or maybe just liars in general.

Chefs, "kitchen entertainers." Home oriented.

No.

"A friend in need." Cherishes friendships and fulfills his obligations to friends willingly. "Mothers" others (friends, pets, etc.)

I do help my friends whenever I can, but I don't like obligations and I certainly don't "mother" them.

As a parent, overly possessive and "mothering." ('Jewish mothers' - as well as Jewish children!)

I have no children, nor am I married, so can't comment on that.

GAUQUELIN CHARACTER TRAITS: Mystic, kind, stubborn, combative, traveler. Not authority, not devoted, generous.

Mystic - no.
Kind - yes
Stubborn - yes
Combative - sometimes
Traveler - no
Not authority - not sure about this one. It really depends where. At home? The workplace? Within the friends circle?
not devoted - yes
generous - yes (But why does it now state "generous", when it above said selfish and covetous? These are complete opposites).

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I know more Sun in Cancer people fairly well than I realized. There are some themes that don't hold for every single Cancer I know, but do echo through most of them at least some of the time.

Some of the people I know who have Sun in Cancer like to think of themselves as pioneers or homesteaders. They live up in the mountains or out in deep snow country and like to talk about how how self-reliant they and their families are and how much more capable they are of living where they do. Most of them heat their homes with wood they sometimes chop themselves. It's all very rustic and smug till the woods catch fire.
When they evacuate, they take an RV enabling them to own a gathering place and create a little community around themselves which they can cook for.

An overriding theme I have seen in Cancer sun people is overcoming; overcoming because they have more gumption than other people or are made of sterner stuff or come from hardier stock. They earned everything they have and they did it in the face of obstacles they believe others could not face. This overcoming stance is usually extended to their spouse and immediate family, and a community of people overcoming the same obstacle.

Many Cancers seem to be joiners and club men and women. Quilting clubs are popular, dog-related clubs, gardening clubs, and so on. (Not "going out to a club." Most don't like to go out to bars or clubs.) Once they join they like to become part of the movers and shakers in the club, going overboard on volunteering to run the silent auctions, or addressing 1000 newsletters by hand monthly. They take big projects, make the implementation very detailed and end up burning out because it's become too much, after a lot of drama about not being able to let everybody down, and yet having to take care of themselves and stop ignoring their families.

One thing they will keep working for in their jobs or in their work is "recognition" in the form of being presented with a plaque and a speech touting how invaluable they are and what a contribution they're making, blurbs about them and their outstanding work in the monthly bulletin, and being called up on stage toward the end of an evening of lectures and complimented and presented with flowers. It's better if it's a surprise to them. You can keep a Cancer going on fumes if you just have them stand up in front of the whole team for applause

Many Cancers I know are sort of serial friends, apparently believing they can have only a small group of friends and must pick and choose among the people available to them based on some criteria of being a hard enough worker or morals, or some other evidence of character.
Cancers tend to very much espouse the opinion that those not with me are against me, and will reverse their view of people very quickly, leading to the label "fickle." The Cancer sees the fickleness as existing in other people, even if the unsupported view is one they've never expressed before. They break off friendships over perceived betrayal, but can sometimes circle back around to wanting to be friends with that person again. If that person doesn't want to be friends again, Cancer is hurt and betrayed.

Most Cancer Suns seem to live lives full of drama, either because their lives are dramatic (escaped Germany just ahead of being arrested) or because they cause a lot of drama. They all ride the whirlwind, and are very much always the heros or heroines of every story. Some of them get very jealous of any attention directed elsewhere.

Cancers I know tend to be teachers, either officially or because they feel called upon to teach. They often do it with an attitude I've heard described as "schoolmarmish" by people who didn't ask to be taught anything, and who sometimes were the very people who taught the Cancer in the first place. Cancers sometimes come to the conclusion they are competent very quickly, sometimes before they know enough about a subject to be able to judge how competent they actually are. Most, however, are good at imparting knowledge, if they come across as somewhat condescending in the process.

Most Cancers I know write and do it fairly well. One wrote books of knitting patterns full of folksy anecdotes and sarcasm and was eulogized in the NY Times. One writes almost the entire bulletin for her dog-related club and edits the rest all on a volunteer basis. The bulletin wins awards consistently, and the club is very proud and always recognizes her extensively at their annual dog show and convention. One writes four blogs about living in the wilds of Wyoming and how she makes a living photographing the mountains and wildlife (which don't mention her husband's considerable income.)

Most of the Cancers I know are very proud of their financial abilities, both their ability to manage the household income to provide a comfortable home for their families and their ability to put away money for the future wisely, sometimes in investments, and almost always in real estate.

[Danica]

Survival/Adaptation
Complexity
Richness

These themes pop up as important for Cancer Suns, from reading what everybody said here and meditating on my list of Solar Cancerians on the go.
Sharing while the Sun is still in Cancer. I definitely need to analyze this group more.

[Arena]

Jim said:

I think if you reread the Kid Gloves article on Saturn, you'll find that almost everything you attribute to Uranus in your character is overtly discussed as rooted in Saturn.

Now I read almost all the book and this is definitely not the case. There are so many things that I identify with in the description for Uranus and Jupiter as well. From that booklet and all descriptions I've seen of those planets, Saturn is not a stronger theme in my character than the other two. I seem to be made up of opposing themes. There are indeed some things I do identify with in the Saturn description, but also a lot that does not apply. I will find a few quotes that are appropriate to use in describing my character from each of those planets.

I've also had a think about the trait associated with Cancers, "enhancing" which has been related to story-telling. This is absolutely not true in my case since it is very important to me to be absolutely truthful and honest. But this word "enhancing" can be used for how I love redoing old furniture or by remake or enhancing living spaces - so it applies to the home or property, but not to storytelling. I am even helping my neighbors enhancing their garden space.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I've also had a think about the trait associated with Cancers, "enhancing" which has been related to story-telling. This is absolutely not true in my case since it is very important to me to be absolutely truthful and honest. But this word "enhancing" can be used for how I love redoing old furniture or by remake or enhancing living spaces - so it applies to the home or property, but not to storytelling. I am even helping my neighbors enhancing their garden space.

I agree you're a bundle of contradictions. I also very much agree with your interpretation of "enhancing" in this case. I think of Cancer's enhancing efforts more in the line of home improvements or remaking furniture or clothes.

One of my Cancer friends decided at the last minute to go on a weekend hunting trip with her husband and his friends. She insisted they loved having her along because she cooked for them. I mentioned it to her husband and one of his friends while thanking them for some home-made sausage, and the words "horning in" were used. She wasn't as appreciated as she thought, but nobody was going to tell her that. They just stopped going on hunting trips with her husband.

She wasn't enhancing the story, but she was telling it from her point of view and not taking anyone else's view into account. I do see that as a Cancer trait. It's not done on purpose or even consciously by most of them, but they are always the heros of their own stories, and don't often see there is another, sometimes less flattering, way to look at things.

[Arena]

She wasn't enhancing the story, but she was telling it from her point of view and not taking anyone else's view into account. I do see that as a Cancer trait. It's not done on purpose or even consciously by most of them, but they are always the heros of their own stories, and don't often see there is another, sometimes less flattering, way to look at things.

This, imo, is not a Cancer thing at all, it's a people's thing. Many people look at the things they do from a different view than others may see it. This is true of individuals of all signs.

One of my Cancer friends decided at the last minute to go on a weekend hunting trip with her husband and his friends. She insisted they loved having her along because she cooked for them.

What an idiotic woman that is Maybe someone should break it to her, that even though her cooking may be very nice in most settings, when her man is going hunting with the boys he just needs his freedom to be alone with the boys and she needs to understand and just give him some space and freedom to do so.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

This, imo, is not a Cancer thing at all, it's a people's thing. Many people look at the things they do from a different view than others may see it. This is true of individuals of all signs.

I was using that as an example of something I see to a lesser or greater extent in most Cancer people I know. I'm not saying it's true of you. Besides, you may have been born with sun in Cancer, but you're an Aries. Just my opinion, of course.

One of my Cancer friends decided at the last minute to go on a weekend hunting trip with her husband and his friends. She insisted they loved having her along because she cooked for them.

What an idiotic woman that is Maybe someone should break it to her, that even though her cooking may be very nice in most settings, when her man is going hunting with the boys he just needs his freedom to be alone with the boys and she needs to understand and just give him some space and freedom to do so.

Her husband broke it to her when he filed for divorce. She still didn't get it. His new girlfriend isn't like that at all, although she's also a Cancer, and a good cook. That clinging stuff isn't a Cancer trait in my experience. Just the not seeing other points of view stuff. But not you, of course.

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm going to try to catch up on the last six months when I was not making my monthly goals at Sun-sign interpretation reexamination. Now that I've put together my Cancer Sun list, I think I'll start by summarizing the key points different participants in this thread brought forward.

I began by explaining why I thought this sign needed the most work. I wrote, as much as memo to myself as anything:

I think my Sun in Cancer interpretations still have the "failed Leo" tone, rather than defining Cancers in their own terms; i.e., I think I've defined them too much in terms of what they are not, and too little in terms of what they are. Cancer makes that so easy! There are traits sooooo much like Tropical Leo because of the luminary quality of its real (lunar) rulership - the luminary quality is there, but it's really lunar, not solar. The social elevation elements are from Jupiter instead of Sun - easy to confuse those, also. And yet, the more I've learned what angular Suns are like, the clearer it has been that Sidereal Leo resembles them, not Tropical Leo.

As a lunar, type, it's so natural for Cancer to hunger for the Sun. That's what Moon does best! Add to that the cultural impact of these people having been told all their lives that they are Leos, and the natural actor tendency and imagery-adoption and building of personal mythos about oneself of Cancer, and a lot of them really are chasing the Leo identity.

But we don't serve them best by defining them in terms of what they aren't. I need new language and new points of view...

Arena observed that the Cancers known best to her were "all very likeable."

Lance described two Cancer close friends:

Both are always hosting people at their homes. In each of their respective circles, they are the hangout and its host. Both are always telling stories of the crazy things that happened to them and what they did in response. It's always a dramatic tale of what their boss did, or a crazy family member.

Both are so very proud of being (Tropical) Leos. They'll never convert to sidereal because it would mean they would have to give up this deeply beloved title. But it makes sense with the idea that they are always telling stories where they face heroic struggles.

Both are mystical, though one's a pagan and the other a progressive Christian.

Both are very extremely dedicated to their friends.

I ran a bit with Lance's follow-up remarks about Cancer vs. Pisces:

...I think you might be onto something. Pisces (in general) is willing to play any good role - tragedy, comedy, heroic, pathetic - the more pathos, the better. Cancer, though, is hungry for the Sun, to fill the cavernous empty gap of not being the Sun. (It is the Sun that is the Hero archetype.) So I do think Cancer is more inclined to generate fantasies that have them be the hero of the saga (speaking in generalizations).

Nothing has hurt Cancers in our time more than the Legend of Being Leo. It incites their imaginations like heroin to an addict, and makes it easier to miss the real miracle of their themed souls: The miracle of being hollow and capable of containing.

In response to a follow-up question on this, I wrote:

It's totally lunar: The essence of the womb is containment.

It's the root archetypal expression of Cancer: Every type of creature that has represented Cancer across all cultures has been something that lives in a shell. That is often taken as some need for protection as if the creature inside the shell were the main point. Actually, I think it's the shell itself, the container, the context, the matrix that is the main point.

Antares5 observed that there are many bodybuilders here - people he knows plus famous people. I think this is a variation of the basic "look good, show it off" theme, since Cancer's not particularly athletic. I noticed the, during high school and college, as the athletes who thrived most on "showing off," of being what used to be called the BMOC, and not particularly interested if they couldn't be that. Additionally, Antares5 (a Cancer himself) speculated this might be a "hard shell" symbol, looking good (polished, strong) on the outside.

Antares5 said something else that was far more important than I realized at the time. In response to my counsel that we need to "not look at overt*surface, outwardly expressed)behaviors so much as the deep motivation beneath them," he asked, "Easier said than done. How do you recognize the deep motivations in people?"

When I read this last August, I probably didn't connect this to the fact that Antares5 is, himself, a Cancer. It's important because I know a lot of Cancers who come from the same place, or their behavior is from the same place. In fact, it's pretty typical of Rims in general. Rims naturally live on the surface - it's where the action is, where stuff happens, where one can get the greatest sense of making stuff happen - all Rim strengths. But I have rarely known a Cancer with deep insight into the depths of people. (The obvious, stark exceptions are Carl Jung and Robert Graves, both of whom had an angular Sun; and Graves had a Hub Moon.)

Derek made observations about one of his friends:

He seems to crave attention and thrives on positive reinforcement, and withers under negative... Sidereal Cancer Suns get their sense of importance from the attention they get, excessively so. A Tropicalist would liken this to the Sun "needing" to be accompanied by a retinue of planets. But the Sun (and SZ Leo) don't need validation, they simply act and give and don't care all that much about who plays the roles of receiving their gifts or following their orders.

Arena, in a long post viewable above, compared herself to the posted interpretations. Some of the highlights, to me (paraphrased here for concision), were as follows (I've focused on those things expressed with the greatest certain and least ambiguity):

Can shift moods quickly and easily (more easily from good to bad than the other way). Does not tend "flower things a little or dramatize a situation," and, in fact, hates drama and tries to shut it down.

Capable of being in the spotlight when the right mood strikes; other times, more quiet.

Sensitive to people as in "sensing" how they feel or what they are about to say

Not at all marked by "deep sense of insufficiency... living only on borrowed prestige. etc." Feels she has earned any prestige afforded her.

Very adaptable.
Not ardent, covetous, or with a sense of urgency.
"Confessional." People naturally confide in her and "just tell me everything, trust me." Can "see right through" ruses.

Studious, oriented to self-improvement.
Master of organization with great talent for delegating authority and heading operations from the executive chair.
Does not stick to home, etc.
Helps people when she possibly can, but not possessive and "mothering." Wants to encourage independence in others.

FWIW, my impression (of the items quoted and other things I trimmed) is that most the places where there is the least identification with Cancer traits are expressions of Saturn, her most angular planet, expecially with regard to valuing self-sufficiency in herself and others, values having earned what is hers, disliking drama and other out of control situations; but not ardent or covetous.

JSAD shared observations of Cancers she knows. She substantially attributes many traits to them that, in Arena, I thought were non-Cancerian and pro-Saturn. Excerpting:

Some of the people I know who have Sun in Cancer like to think of themselves as pioneers or homesteaders. They live up in the mountains or out in deep snow country and like to talk about how self-reliant they and their families are and how much more capable they are of living where they do. Most of them heat their homes with wood they sometimes chop themselves. It's all very rustic and smug till the woods catch fire.
When they evacuate, they take an RV enabling them to own a gathering place and create a little community around themselves which they can cook for.

An overriding theme I have seen in Cancer sun people is overcoming; overcoming because they have more gumption than other people or are made of sterner stuff or come from hardier stock. They earned everything they have and they did it in the face of obstacles they believe others could not face. This overcoming stance is usually extended to their spouse and immediate family, and a community of people overcoming the same obstacle.

Many Cancers seem to be joiners and club men and women. Quilting clubs are popular, dog-related clubs, gardening clubs, and so on. (Not "going out to a club." Most don't like to go out to bars or clubs.) Once they join they like to become part of the movers and shakers in the club, going overboard on volunteering to run the silent auctions, or addressing 1000 newsletters by hand monthly. They take big projects, make the implementation very detailed and end up burning out because it's become too much, after a lot of drama about not being able to let everybody down, and yet having to take care of themselves and stop ignoring their families.

One thing they will keep working for in their jobs or in their work is "recognition" in the form of being presented with a plaque and a speech touting how invaluable they are and what a contribution they're making, blurbs about them and their outstanding work in the monthly bulletin, and being called up on stage toward the end of an evening of lectures and complimented and presented with flowers. It's better if it's a surprise to them. You can keep a Cancer going on fumes if you just have them stand up in front of the whole team for applause

Many Cancers I know are sort of serial friends, apparently believing they can have only a small group of friends and must pick and choose among the people available to them based on some criteria of being a hard enough worker or morals, or some other evidence of character.

Cancers tend to very much espouse the opinion that those not with me are against me, and will reverse their view of people very quickly, leading to the label "fickle." The Cancer sees the fickleness as existing in other people, even if the unsupported view is one they've never expressed before. They break off friendships over perceived betrayal, but can sometimes circle back around to wanting to be friends with that person again. If that person doesn't want to be friends again, Cancer is hurt and betrayed.

Most Cancer Suns seem to live lives full of drama, either because their lives are dramatic (escaped Germany just ahead of being arrested) or because they cause a lot of drama. They all ride the whirlwind, and are very much always the heroes or heroines of every story. Some of them get very jealous of any attention directed elsewhere.

Cancers I know tend to be teachers, either officially or because they feel called upon to teach. They often do it with an attitude I've heard described as "schoolmarmish" by people who didn't ask to be taught anything, and who sometimes were the very people who taught the Cancer in the first place. Cancers sometimes come to the conclusion they are competent very quickly, sometimes before they know enough about a subject to be able to judge how competent they actually are. Most, however, are good at imparting knowledge, if they come across as somewhat condescending in the process.

Most Cancers I know write and do it fairly well. One wrote books of knitting patterns full of folksy anecdotes and sarcasm and was eulogized in the NY Times. One writes almost the entire bulletin for her dog-related club and edits the rest all on a volunteer basis. The bulletin wins awards consistently, and the club is very proud and always recognizes her extensively at their annual dog show and convention. One writes four blogs about living in the wilds of Wyoming and how she makes a living photographing the mountains and wildlife (which don't mention her husband's considerable income.)

Most of the Cancers I know are very proud of their financial abilities, both their ability to manage the household income to provide a comfortable home for their families and their ability to put away money for the future wisely, sometimes in investments, and almost always in real estate.

She later added an anecdote:

...I think of Cancer's enhancing efforts more in the line of home improvements or remaking furniture or clothes.

One of my Cancer friends decided at the last minute to go on a weekend hunting trip with her husband and his friends. She insisted they loved having her along because she cooked for them. I mentioned it to her husband and one of his friends while thanking them for some home-made sausage, and the words "horning in" were used. She wasn't as appreciated as she thought, but nobody was going to tell her that. They just stopped going on hunting trips with her husband.

She wasn't enhancing the story, but she was telling it from her point of view and not taking anyone else's view into account. I do see that as a Cancer trait. It's not done on purpose or even consciously by most of them, but they are always the heroes of their own stories, and don't often see there is another, sometimes less flattering, way to look at things.

Danica summarized her observations as:

Survival/Adaptation
Complexity
Richness

These themes pop up as important for Cancer Suns, from reading what everybody said here and meditating on my list of Solar Cancerians on the go.

[Jim Eshelman]

Looking at the Cancers I know best, the one most consistent trait immediately obvious - which I hadn't exactly discerned before in this way - is something mentioned by several of you. They are mostly all private people. Even those who are in the limelight have carefully arranged their privacy, and it usually appears to be a sheltering by privacy or privacy as protection.

There isn't the "don't let folks know me" of Capricorn, but there is something that superficially looks the same to me at the moment. It may be that this (home, privacy, shelter) is where they refuel and draw strength.

In several of them (and perhaps more than I know), their homes have to be "just so" - with some, they protect their sanity (probably part of that "recharge" process) by their homes being "just so," just the way they need them to be.

[Jim Eshelman]

Among the famous, I am struck by how the professional and other groupings are different from other signs for which I've collated people. Overwhelmingly, entertainers are in the lead and, while entertainers are a pretty big bunch of the "famous people" whose charts we have, there are some distinctive marks here.

For one, the number of plastic-faced outrageous comedians is noticeable, and the names are not at all paltry - they are among the greatest of the last half century: Lucille Ball, Phyllis Diller, Red Skelton, Steve Martin, and Robin Williams. That's a noteworthy list! (What specific traits can we discern from this, since Cancer isn't normally known for comedy itself.) Directors run the range from, say, John Derek (think "10") to Wes Craven (think "Nightmare on Elm Street").

The number in music, and music vs. acting cross-over, is non-trivial.

I have very few photographers in my collection, and three of them appeared for Sun in Cancer.

Surprisingly, there are several giants of the legal field. Two current Supreme Court judges, and one (not approved) appointee to the court. Two of my personal friends who are among the most famous, most accomplished litigators of this era, Dan Petrocelli and Linda Smith. Former Attorney General Richard Kleindienst. Oh, and Robert Mueller. While neither lawyers nor judges are overall prone to Cancer, this list is atypical among signs - what conclusions can we draw? (One conclusion: Most of these can rightly be classified as "celebrity lawyers," people hired as much for their public profile as for their quite substantial skills.)

Their literary standing is quite remarkable. My list of literary figures with Sun in Cancer is quite long, and poets are unusually present (appropriate Moon symbolism), including no less than Robert Graves who penetrated the archetypal core of poetry; add Percy Bysshe Shelley and Petrarch. But, just to name selectively, this sign has among its children Ales Haley (had to mention him for "Roots") and giants like Alexandre Dumas, Ernest Hemingway, George Bernard Shaw, Guy de Maupassant, Herman Melville, Lord Alfred Tennyson. As with the comedians, that's quite a sampling!

Politics includes an unsettling bunch of people. In a sense, these are "celebrity" politicians, too, in a sense different from the "playing to the masses" typical politician. Besides two American presidents (lowest number) the names include less attractive but dramatic examples like Benito Mussolini, Fidel Castro, and Hugo Chavez. (For "celebrity politician," include Sen. John Glenn.)

This might be one of the keys to Cancer: that, when they do well, they are celebrity examples of what they are doing (whatever that is). The public tends to know they are. In other fields we find similar examples, like Richard Branson (and for that matter, Henry Ford) among business figures, or Jacqueline Kennedy among book editors. or Amelia Earhart among aviators.

[Arena]

I guess both Moon and Sun have a "shining" ability ... OR if you don't consider Moon to have a "shining" ability (and not just the pretentious one you have already suggested), we have to go through all these and see which ones are tropical Leos (shining), followed by reconsidering our view on the zodiacs - or look into which ones actually have angular Suns and Moons.

[Jim Eshelman]

I guess both Moon and Sun have a "shining" ability ... OR if you don't consider Moon to have a "shining" ability (and not just the pretentious one you have already suggested), we have to go through all these and see which ones are tropical Leos (shining), followed by reconsidering our view on the zodiacs - or look into which ones actually have angular Suns and Moons.

I don't know yet if I'd use that language. We do know that Cancer Moon men have won the most Best Actor Oscars, and the actor/dramatic element is strong.

To compile the kind of list of people I've been using, and ordering it for this kind of analysis, takes me about two hours, so I probably won't do it until we go through the Cancer Moon section in July-August this year. A quick glance certainly has a few absolutely shimmer stars who draw enormous attention and focus - Streisand and numerous other giants in music (e.g., two Beatles, Hendrix, Bowie), probably Eva Peron, Gandhi, Zsa Zsa who was famous for being famous, and many other. Outside of entertainment (music especially, and film), I'm not (at a glance or an unsorted, unprocessed list) seeing the kind of celebrity status non-entertainment fields that I see with Sun. (This might emerge on better data organization.)

But it's easy to check whether the "celebrity figures in other fields" I listed in other fields have angular Suns. Mussolini, Castro, and Chavez = all the politicians I listed - did not. Nor did Glenn. Of Amelia Earhart, Jacqueline Kennedy, and William Branson, only the last has an angular Sun. (I could have added Warhol, who also has an angular Sun.) So, mostly, no.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

If you haven't seen Moana, there's a scene where a crab god, Tomatoa, who hoards anything that glitters, and sings a David Bowie-style villain song, "Shiny". It doesn't get much more Cancer than that.

https://youtu.be/93lrosBEW-Q

One of my former long-term partners is a Cancer. Punk rock singer as a kid, youthful achievement in television. Her art style was assemblage. Desperate to be a mother, in the protective mothering mould. Issues with OCD and hoarding. A homebody.

The Cancer women I've known have all been very protective of their personal space. Maybe easily spooked? I perceive their response to my Virgo way of un-charming directness as often snippy and sidestepping. But they're quite tender once you get past the shell.

[SteveS]

My father was a Cancer, and he was always attractive to 'shinny' cars, even to the point he always traded for a new car every year to get that certain 'shine/glow.' A somewhat expensive habit/attachment.

[Arena]

My father was a Cancer, and he was always attractive to 'shinny' cars, even to the point he always traded for a new car every year to get that certain 'shine/glow.' A somewhat expensive habit/attachment.

Steve, remember that the "shiny" side of astrology applies to both the Sun and the Moon, they both shine... so this can just as well fit with the tropical zodiac Leo. So this is not a proof for the sidereal zodiac. To me, it is rather something that makes me question it.

[Jim Eshelman]

Part of my message on this for the last 40-50 years or so has been: This, that you think is Leo, isn't Leo at all. It's a fantasy of what Leo should be. Leo's are way too dignified for such things.

Leo doesn't hunger for the shiny. That's a lunar thing.

[SteveS]

Arena, my father definitely did not project traits/personality of Leo symbolism. Cancer traits--big time!

[Arena]

Oh, I wasn't talking about any kind of "hunger for the shining". I was talking about the fact that these luminaries both shine brightly in the sky. The Sun very bright shine during the day and the Moon at night. I am not expressing their own desires, I am simply explaining how others might see them, as people who "shine" in a way. Has nothing to do with being dignified.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

Part of my message on this for the last 40-50 years or so has been: This, that you think is Leo, isn't Leo at all. It's a fantasy of what Leo should be. Leo's are way too dignified for such things.

Leo doesn't hunger for the shiny. That's a lunar thing.

Yes, I see this as:

Cancer's artistic aesthetic is "gild the lily". It's baroque/rococo.

Leo's is classic and minimal in it's regal-ness. A lion's glorious mane, un-bejeweled.

[Jim Eshelman]

A Cancer this morning referred to himself as "always living in someone's shadow." I'd never thought of that particular blending of the shadow theme so recurring in Cancer + their character! I'm making a note of it here to follow-up on.