Veronica and Craig

[Veronica]

I have been involved with a man for the past four years and I really love him and would like to think that we can have a happy ever after. I looked at our synastry chart when we first started dating and I thought at the time, well this looks like a winner, even with the mercury/communication issues. I really don't know what end is up. this man rocked me to the core and really swept me off my feet and I just cant believe it was all for nothing and it over. I know we love each other but have such issues and background that it just seems like such hard work. Ive never been one to shirk away from work though and I crave the level of intimacy and connection we have. I feel like we are meant to be together, and when I am away from him I feel lost. Ive never felt this way about a man and it is scary and confusing. I asked him to marry me that how serious I am about him.

His info
CraigL
birthplace Sodus NY
date 08/01/70
time was in am

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Veronica. Your Sun is square his Neptune. You don't love this man. You love your idea of this man. From what you said in the other thread, you keep trying to remake this man into what you want, and he's not interested. (and who tries to act like a role model for a grown man? He's not what you want. Never was. Your Neptune-Moon is square his Mercury. He can't rely on what you say because you're all caught up in your own dreamy emotions, to the point you can't even see this guy.

As for anything else... I'm sorry, but what you think is there isn't. There's no strong aspects between your charts. No signs of love and almost no sign of lust either. This relationship isn't about him. It's about what you want, and you're using him as a mannequin to create your fantasy. When he doesn't live up to your dreams, you're disappointed and you make sure he knows it. I'm sure we could make up something about some of the wider aspects, but honestly, there's no foundation there to build on. Doesn't matter how hard you work. Without a foundation, it won't stand.

You're willing do all kinds of work to try to keep this fantasy. Real love doesn't take work. It takes caring about the other person's feelings, and that is not showing in these two charts. What's really the problem? You've spent so much time on this you don't want it to go to waste? Sorry it's already wasted. Don't throw more time and work at this relationship. There is no relationship here to work on.

Leave this man alone. He's to the point trying to get rid of you he's setting up situations where you get physically hurt. What's going to get through to you? Does he have to set up a situation where one of your kids or animals gets hurt. Don't say "Oh he would NEVAH!" because your fantasy based on him maybe wouldn't, but you don't know what this guy might do because you don't know this real man at all.

When people tell you who they are and how they feel about you, believe them.

I'm sorry.

[Jim Eshelman]

I wish we had a birth time for him. I'm using 6 AM as the center of the known period.

How one would interpret his chart has a lot to do with how secure he is in life. His exact Sun-Mars conjunction could be genuinely strong and valiant, or could be reactively, over-compensatingly rough, mean, or sabotaging. As a double Cancer, he is acutely sensitive to "living in someone's shadow" and not fitting his own image of what he should be. His Venus-Pluto conjunction means that he needs intensity - "no holds barred" - in personal connection or, if he feels that isn't available, he pulls away and shuts down. (As it trines his Saturn, he is vulnerable to thinking that he's the one being shut out, and perhaps doesn't take perceived rejection well.)

Since last you were here, I've moved to a sort of two-pass approach to synastry, the first of which is to zero in on two luminaries, two benefics, and two malefic from each chart to the other - and to understand that each person in the relationship has his or her own experience of what's going on, and it may not resemble the other person's perception. Let's see what that brings here:

Placing his chart around yours, I notice a complete absence of even moderately wide aspects of his Moon, Sun, Venus, Jupiter, Mars, and Saturn to your chart. (As with your current transits, I don't offhand recall when I've seen so little astrological activity.) We'll come back to your experience of the relationship later.

Flipping around to see your planets around his chart, and the checking the same six planets (but not relying on his angles being accurate), the stand-out is your Moon and Jupiter square his Mercury (16'). (Yes, I know your Neptune does also - but we're not there yet.) This, by itself, shows really excellent communication, probably a rapid interchange, easy flow, and you distinctly respecting his mind and what he has to say. (Oh, yeah, your Sun is to this, too.)

That - the Mercury focus - is the only gigantically strong thing between the charts from this first approach. I'll start a second post to finish the analysis,

[Jim Eshelman]

For the second pass, we treat each person's chart as transits to the other's chart. This narrows the orbs a lot, and broadens the planets used.

So, the first question is: By transits to your chart at the moment he was born what kind of "event" does this describe in your life?

He was born when Neptune was approaching, but not yet in partile orb, the square to your Sun. This was a time you would start to feel ego-dissolving. Under Neptune transits to Sun, we diffuse (lose) our sense of who we are and where we are going. It can be good for highly controlling people, or folks who have been shut down on the reality of their life - losing their existing definitions makes room for building new ones on the other side. but generally it's a time of losing track of yourself and direction.

I suspect something like that has happened in this relationship. It can be very powerful to lose yourself, dissolving into another, like surrendering into temptation or sinking surrenderfully into the most luxurious bed.

No other outer planet is involved in any close aspects from his chart to yours. That is, if you were living he "event" of August 1, 1970, there would have been no major transits occurring.

Similarly, neither his Sun, Mars, nor Venus aspects anything in your chart (and his Moon appears not to, unless it is close enough to sesqui-square your Mars). This means that the only factor besides this pending Neptune 'transit' is his Mercry partile square your Moon - already discussed.

So, what kind of summary...

Veronica, the heart wants what it wants. Having admitted that, I don't see what you saw that made you say the chart comparison was decent. There's almost nothing thereat all. 100% of all the relevant contacts are wrapped up in this:

3°49' Scorpio - his Neptune
5°05' Aquarius - your Sun
7°28' Leo - his Mercury
7°44' Scorpio - your Moon
8°47' Scorpio - your Mars
10°29' Scorpio - your Jupiter

I'm guessing he has an angle around 20° mutable - your Venus. There kinda has to be something more, because there doesn't seem enough here to have more than briefly caught your attention. There is enough to draw your fascination and vulnerable surrender for a time, and your admiration of his mind and words - which isn't (acordiong to the charts) necessarily reciprocated.

I'm not sure that I'd have encouraged you in this relationship.

PS - On a wild lark, try a birth time for him (purely speculative) of 4:00 AM.

[Jim Eshelman]

Here's the semi-automated chart interpretation for Craig, for all factors that don't require a birth time.

MOON IN CANCER
Strongly driven by feelings (close to surface, comfortably expressed; sometimes overwhelm). When feeling safe: tender, gentle, humane, openly sensitive; otherwise moody, cocky arrogance. Expressive actor, yet treasures privacy. Magnetic, draws affection, warm, generous, hospitable. Sympathetic listening; trusted. Exudes optimism, confidence. Better serving than leading. Thrives within imagination & fantasy.


SUN IN CANCER
Thrives within imagination & complexity (vision; or lost in fantasy). Lives in others’ shadow; finds purpose in service & emulation. Conceive & deliver results. Persuasive, trusted, instinct for motives. Live in mystery or its resolution: create or solve puzzles. Renewed by home or sanctuary. Sensitive, moody, self-absorbed.

ASPECTS OF SUN
CONJUNCTION MARS Orb 0°22' Applying
Action, drive, accomplishment, vitality, courage. Restless, forthright, direct (perhaps hasty, impatient, temperamental, low frustration tolerance). Strong physical aggression (for business, sex, etc.). Industrious, instinctively leads or commands, thus often promoted.

SEXTILE URANUS Orb 2°56' Separating
Go their own way, unapologetically following their own paths. Easily bored. Loves freedom. Progressive, future-oriented, uninhibited by convention. Self-perspective usually founded in objectivity. Often deeply interested in occultism.


MARS IN CANCER
Inner strength (prodigious imagination & fantasy) usually holds private demons at bay; but clings to old wounds (angry, acting out, selfish, retaliatory from old mistreatment). Breeds confidence, makes things happen; loyal, speaks truth to power; but wants a chance to lead. Magnetic (passionate following?). Wants adoration sexually (otherwise business-like).


MERCURY IN LEO
Bright, takes pride in learning. Derives stature, dignity, and strength from intellect. Refuses to be intimidated by facts. Dislikes "common thinking" and obvious stupidity. Flair for stylish expression; effective communicators. Resourceful.


VENUS IN LEO
"Parents" friends (= unequal relationships). Self-surrender is hard; vain, aloof. Bold when romance captures their interest (but many older bachelors). "Shoppers" in romance, testing the ground first. Early sexual mismatches (unhealthy early relationships). Strong sense of morality & dignity. Generous friend.

ASPECTS OF VENUS
TRINE SATURN Orb 0°41' Separating
Work, duty, devotion are gratifying. Restrictions in love; ordinary pleasures may be deferred. Many seem comfortable unpartnered, though there is rarely sexual restraint. Childhood hardship or deprivation shape adult patterns. Sober, responsible.

CONJUNCTION PLUTO Orb 3°14' Applying
“All or nothing” emotional intensity instinctively rejects others’ (moral and other) arbitrary values on love, sex, art. Typically has few intimates, and those of unfiltered intensity. Halfway measures are not enough; in human connection, the feeling is, “go cosmic, or go home.” Those expressing the ALL mode seek deep, penetrating connections (sometimes overwhelming intimates, sometimes inadvertently challenging social codes). Those in the NOTHING mode may choose it innocently or withdraw from people in response to repeated rebuke and ostracism. For both, sexual development may come late, as adolescent social rituals seem perplexingly arbitrary. Either may experience eruptive trouble in relationships. Either, by their intensity, can be commandingly charismatic.

[TheScales_BothWays]

Hey Veronica, welcome back to Solunars.

His info
CraigL
birthplace Sodus NY
date 08/01/70
time was in am

Veronica, is his date of birth the 1st of August, or the 8th of January?

If I use the 8th of January as his date of birth, then we'd finally get something that shows some strong attraction. His Venus partile square your Venus. Your Sun is also partile to his Neptune. And your Mars squares his Mars, but also partile sesquisquares Saturn. In fact, when I first read your post about ~1.15am, transiting Mars-Saturn was rising and the Sun was on the IC for my locale. Even right now, as I type this, Mars-Saturn is on the MC and the Sun is rising.

If 8th January is his birthday, this is actually much worse thanks to his Mars-Saturn connecting to your Mars. But upon reading the earlier replies, I realise that you probably mean the 1st of August, and that Americans use a different date system. But I'm posting this just in case.

[Veronica]

Veronica. Your Sun is square his Neptune. You don't love this man. You love your idea of this man. From what you said in the other thread, you keep trying to remake this man into what you want, and he's not interested. (and who tries to act like a role model for a grown man? He's not what you want. Never was. Your Neptune-Moon is square his Mercury. He can't rely on what you say because you're all caught up in your own dreamy emotions, to the point you can't even see this guy.

As for anything else... I'm sorry, but what you think is there isn't. There's no strong aspects between your charts. No signs of love and almost no sign of lust either. This relationship isn't about him. It's about what you want, and you're using him as a mannequin to create your fantasy. When he doesn't live up to your dreams, you're disappointed and you make sure he knows it. I'm sure we could make up something about some of the wider aspects, but honestly, there's no foundation there to build on. Doesn't matter how hard you work. Without a foundation, it won't stand.

You're willing do all kinds of work to try to keep this fantasy. Real love doesn't take work. It takes caring about the other person's feelings, and that is not showing in these two charts. What's really the problem? You've spent so much time on this you don't want it to go to waste? Sorry it's already wasted. Don't throw more time and work at this relationship. There is no relationship here to work on.

Leave this man alone. He's to the point trying to get rid of you he's setting up situations where you get physically hurt. What's going to get through to you? Does he have to set up a situation where one of your kids or animals gets hurt. Don't say "Oh he would NEVAH!" because your fantasy based on him maybe wouldn't, but you don't know what this guy might do because you don't know this real man at all.

When people tell you who they are and how they feel about you, believe them.

I'm sorry.

I love the idea of this man, yup.
Because for the first 6 months when I was wooed and fell in love I believed the lie he originally told me about who he was and what he did, and what he wanted out of life. Who he really was, was someone who wanted to be what he told me he was but was struggling to achieve his goals.
I believed in the man he was when he was with me. Not the Public Enemy number one, that I found out he was. I have know this guy since a teen, and we had a similar group of friends, neighbors really because we live in a small town. I left that circle of friends and for 20 years had no contact with any of them. I am not trying to make him into something he is not. That's why I'm sitting home alone. I tried to help him become, what he told me he wanted, but the street life is an almost impossible thing to just walk away from. I do my best to act like a role model of ALL people, always trying to do my best and be my best in every moment, because I know I personally fell better and act better when I also am around people who are acting in accordance with there best. this world, imo is full of negative people who are quick to know people down and not enough people to lift them all up.
it might be easy for you to just say hes not what I want, and there is no relationship here and I hear what your saying, but he is what I want, and there is something between us. I wasn't looking for a relationship. I was still married and ending a PTSd causing relationship with my ex-husband. I was minding my own business and he showed up and just swept me off my feet. I have felt more love with this man then with any other man I have loved intimately. But yet there is a huge dark side brought out by his lifestyle that is to scary for me to deal with. I'm not one to tell anyone how to live their life and what they should do.
there are 100billion people on this planet and I DO have a relationship of some worth with this one particular person and while you may say there is nothing to build on, my inner skeptic says, nothing is impossible.
Craig told me he loved me and I believe him.
what the love we do mysteriously have between us will turn into is whats important.
I appreciate your feedback and take it to heart, but I dont just willy nilly get into a relationship, im a very hard person to get close too in real life so Im perplexed at the whole thing.

[Veronica]

Hey Veronica, welcome back to Solunars.

His info
CraigL
birthplace Sodus NY
date 08/01/70
time was in am

Veronica, is his date of birth the 1st of August, or the 8th of January?

If I use the 8th of January as his date of birth, then we'd finally get something that shows some strong attraction. His Venus partile square your Venus. Your Sun is also partile to his Neptune. And your Mars squares his Mars, but also partile sesquisquares Saturn. In fact, when I first read your post about ~1.15am, transiting Mars-Saturn was rising and the Sun was on the IC for my locale. Even right now, as I type this, Mars-Saturn is on the MC and the Sun is rising.

If 8th January is his birthday, this is actually much worse thanks to his Mars-Saturn connecting to your Mars. But upon reading the earlier replies, I realise that you probably mean the 1st of August, and that Americans use a different date system. But I'm posting this just in case.

hi
sorry for the confusion
it August 1st 1970

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I'm not saying he's not what you want. I'm saying he's not what you want him to be and never will be.

He put you in the position of his friends coming to your home and assaulting you. Either he accused you of cheating or he didn't defend you when someone else did (and he had to know what would happen if he didn't defend you.) You know he lies. He may be the love of your life, but you are not the love of his.

I gave you the astrology, and Jim gave you the astrology, and Scales gave you the astrology. That's all we can do. What you do with that information is up to you.

[Veronica]

Here's the semi-automated chart interpretation for Craig, for all factors that don't require a birth time.

MOON IN CANCER
Strongly driven by feelings (close to surface, comfortably expressed; sometimes overwhelm). When feeling safe: tender, gentle, humane, openly sensitive; otherwise moody, cocky arrogance. Expressive actor, yet treasures privacy. Magnetic, draws affection, warm, generous, hospitable. Sympathetic listening; trusted. Exudes optimism, confidence. Better serving than leading. Thrives within imagination & fantasy.


SUN IN CANCER
Thrives within imagination & complexity (vision; or lost in fantasy). Lives in others’ shadow; finds purpose in service & emulation. Conceive & deliver results. Persuasive, trusted, instinct for motives. Live in mystery or its resolution: create or solve puzzles. Renewed by home or sanctuary. Sensitive, moody, self-absorbed.

ASPECTS OF SUN
CONJUNCTION MARS Orb 0°22' Applying
Action, drive, accomplishment, vitality, courage. Restless, forthright, direct (perhaps hasty, impatient, temperamental, low frustration tolerance). Strong physical aggression (for business, sex, etc.). Industrious, instinctively leads or commands, thus often promoted.

SEXTILE URANUS Orb 2°56' Separating
Go their own way, unapologetically following their own paths. Easily bored. Loves freedom. Progressive, future-oriented, uninhibited by convention. Self-perspective usually founded in objectivity. Often deeply interested in occultism.


MARS IN CANCER
Inner strength (prodigious imagination & fantasy) usually holds private demons at bay; but clings to old wounds (angry, acting out, selfish, retaliatory from old mistreatment). Breeds confidence, makes things happen; loyal, speaks truth to power; but wants a chance to lead. Magnetic (passionate following?). Wants adoration sexually (otherwise business-like).


MERCURY IN LEO
Bright, takes pride in learning. Derives stature, dignity, and strength from intellect. Refuses to be intimidated by facts. Dislikes "common thinking" and obvious stupidity. Flair for stylish expression; effective communicators. Resourceful.


VENUS IN LEO
"Parents" friends (= unequal relationships). Self-surrender is hard; vain, aloof. Bold when romance captures their interest (but many older bachelors). "Shoppers" in romance, testing the ground first. Early sexual mismatches (unhealthy early relationships). Strong sense of morality & dignity. Generous friend.

ASPECTS OF VENUS
TRINE SATURN Orb 0°41' Separating
Work, duty, devotion are gratifying. Restrictions in love; ordinary pleasures may be deferred. Many seem comfortable unpartnered, though there is rarely sexual restraint. Childhood hardship or deprivation shape adult patterns. Sober, responsible.

CONJUNCTION PLUTO Orb 3°14' Applying
“All or nothing” emotional intensity instinctively rejects others’ (moral and other) arbitrary values on love, sex, art. Typically has few intimates, and those of unfiltered intensity. Halfway measures are not enough; in human connection, the feeling is, “go cosmic, or go home.” Those expressing the ALL mode seek deep, penetrating connections (sometimes overwhelming intimates, sometimes inadvertently challenging social codes). Those in the NOTHING mode may choose it innocently or withdraw from people in response to repeated rebuke and ostracism. For both, sexual development may come late, as adolescent social rituals seem perplexingly arbitrary. Either may experience eruptive trouble in relationships. Either, by their intensity, can be commandingly charismatic.

Thank you for providing this. It is pretty dead on right except that I will say that due to his early ADD/ADHD he was taken out of regular school in 7th grade and his academic learning pretty much came to a halt, and he learned the lessons of the street. He is very proud of what he does know and since I had been with him showing him real sources of information he devoured media. I also believe even though he touts being Christian, the fact that he was interested in me, the local witch, does reinforce this saying he is interested in the occult. I am thinking that the term sober here is in meaning to his demeanor, which is true, but he has no desire for sobriety in his life because he believe that he does have his demons under wrap and can indulge in occasionally.

The Cancer conjunction is very powerful and we do have very uncanny psychic connections. we can spend hours happily not talking and just happy with each other. He does demand all or nothing from people, but is not one to give that back. He flips in a relationship, giving all on day and then nothing, very overly sensitive, and seems to get pms more then I do. Is not willing to discuss the core issues, would rather just ignore the situation and let time ride by and then pretend nothing ever happened.

He was very attached to the tropical chart in which he thought he was the glorious Leo, and was pretty hurt when I tried to show him he was actually a really cool double crab.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I am thinking that the term sober here is in meaning to his demeanor, which is true, but he has no desire for sobriety in his life because he believe that he does have his demons under wrap and can indulge in occasionally.

Yes. Sober in this context means serious, thoughtful, not silly or giddy.

He does demand all or nothing from people, but is not one to give that back. He flips in a relationship, giving all on day and then nothing, very overly sensitive, and seems to get pms more then I do. Is not willing to discuss the core issues, would rather just ignore the situation and let time ride by and then pretend nothing ever happened.

That's a very good description of Cancer luminaries.

He was very attached to the tropical chart in which he thought he was the glorious Leo, and was pretty hurt when I tried to show him he was actually a really cool double crab.

Cancers who aren't Leos and Capricorns who aren't Aquarians both seem to be pretty unhappy with their "new signs." It's hard to convince them you aren't trying to change anything about them but the label.

[Veronica]

One of the things that I believe is important in this relationship is that we both have Venus Trine Saturn. With our sensitive natures (cancer and scorpio) our mutual desires resonated. We loved doing the same things.
I also know that when I look at our charts together and see what you say as nothing there to build upon I wonder if its not so much as what is there, as what is not.
I know that the physical experience I get of that Neptune aspect is the most mind blowing feeling I have ever felt, and that I crave that big over stuffed bed like you say. Like a junkie. I have never been so satisfied sexually for sure, he reads me like a book in every way.
I definitely come across as a girl who is a survivor and does not need a man to do anything for me. I can love em or leave em. maybe for me as a person I needed to feel that crazy lost feeling with him, because it is the most beautiful thing I have ever felt. That's what the feeling in my gut is, the feeling that I know I had the source of what made me feel so content and at peace and safe, and I will never be able to have that again.
when I look at his chart and I can see him spelled out good and bad and know how those good things shine, and how those dark spots manifest, and still say I have this crazy love?lust?fixation?attachment?something with this man.
I also think that I'm very lucky that I have a great perspective to not ever think of anything as "wasted." I believe that my little character Veronica will only ever have a very limited amount of astrology charts to relate to in her little life, and each one of them is an opportunity and a blessing even if I cant see why. I refuse to be restricted by thinking that parts of me are garbage. If I am able to embrace each synastic chart that comes into my life in its highest potential then who knows what could be built.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Something I've seen in the Cancer psyche is they like to let you chase them till they catch you, and then it's time for a new person to chase them. I've never met one with a Sig Other who didn't have a long story about how they weren't really interested in someone but she or he pursued them and worked very hard to change their mind and get them. Often there are stories of how multiple people were fighting to win them. All of them are supposedly still constantly pursued, despite their being claims of being happy in their current relationship. If the Sig Other appears to stop feeling like they have to be in constant pursuit, the Cancer moves on. It's like a constant state of testing, till they decide they've had enough of you, and then it's just over, and that's that.

[Jim Eshelman]

You mean like: "Are you going to keep making me feel like I'm the prize?"

Interesting contrast to the similar (but reverse-motive) testing that Capricorn seems to do non-stop.

Veronica, I get it - especially as an Aquarius-Scorpio, there are certain things you need and you now have them in abundance; and I'm also hearing that there are several things you're getting from him that you love. And (though you are putting different values on things than I might), it does seem that you are aware of the negatives rather than blind to them.

I did begin my summation above by acknowledging that the heart wants what it wants. And I really wish we had a birth time for him - one like the time I speculated would make this picture far, far different than it otherwise seems (but that time is still a speculation; I don't want to pretend it's right).

I'm just worried about people showing up to beat the crap out of you.

[Veronica]

"I'm just worried about people showing up to beat the crap out of you."
You are so sweet to say that, and I really take that to heart.
I am staying home and working on my little things as best I can and just focusing on my responsibilities. if you have no involvement there is little reason for others to come. I don't go looking for trouble and I have much better things to do then stir up trouble.
I am one who has lived her life on her sleeve and unabashedly me, and I have always known that to a large portion of the population I am not cool, at all one bit and have often found myself as the projected Anima or archetype of deep rooted characteristics that are seemingly at odd with mine.

Guess the universe knew what to do and gave me lots of Big Brothers and street wise so that when someone does try to attack me, I have a big Mary Poppins bag of tricks to use. I am a scrapper, I admit a terrible temper and have screamed toe to toe with men 3 times my size and not backed down. That woman fought dirty, and in my naiviety to think she was going to do things honorably I let her get the upper hand for a minute. For my first fight with a woman ever, it could have been worse as apparently girls have no honor in matter of war either. I can check that off my bucket list and say, I will never let a stupid thing like other peoples fears get me mad, because I can honestly say that this return that I am going through right now has moved me into a stage of life that makes such things such a waste of time, that I would rather watch the grass grow. which is what I have been doing.

Based on my chart stuff there has always been a theme in my life with stalkers and unwanted pursuits. I am still alive thankfully and I am not putting myself out there to attract any intimate partners at this time. I really am clear on focusing on being home and just being a dork till my kids are ready to move out.

I don't know what you are talking about here or referencing
You mean like:"Are you going to make me feel like I'm the prize"
that statement would fit craig, he wants me to make him feel like the prize.

Yes I do feel tested very much so. it is almost as if he is systamaticily running through his group of friends and seeing if I would cheat with them. This past week he actually pulled out the biggest card he had, the only man I actually had ever been intimate with as a teen. I have very deep feelings for this fellow I met when I was four years old in kindergarten and we have had an on again off again child like thing during our childhood. Craig and Stanley are long time friends. All of these guys around here are all very much a Brotherhood and I honestly dont think that any of these men that he accused me of being with would have the guts to touch me knowing that Craig has feeling for me. So its actually very manipulative and controling and I am sure due to his easily bored nature, very entertaining to him for me to provide him with enteratinment of sorts while actually vetting my loyality. He really beileved that I might be a cop and trying to put him away, so he is very closed lipped about just about everythings. Thats the occult about him.

I appreciate you all taking the time to look at this and provide your insights. I am thinking about it over in my mind and hope that my personal reflections gives you some gleenings into your understanding of what a person with my chart actual is like. its hard to articulate these deep concepts at times and I am thankful that you bear with me and help me along in my own study of the Stars

its all to much like a soap opera, so I took a bow.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

You mean like: "Are you going to keep making me feel like I'm the prize?"

Pretty much. You have to keep confirming they're special and you know you're so lucky to be able to kiss their feet!

Interesting contrast to the similar (but reverse-motive) testing that Capricorn seems to do non-stop.

Cancer's testing is also non-stop. They seem to prefer one worshiper at a time, but like to have one in the wings to take over when the first one fails them. And nobody ever doesn't fail.

[Veronica]

"PS - On a wild lark, try a birth time for him (purely speculative) of 4:00 AM"

If that is the case then what I see is my Venus sitting right on his desecdant

[Jim Eshelman]

"PS - On a wild lark, try a birth time for him (purely speculative) of 4:00 AM"

If that is the case then what I see is my Venus sitting right on his desecdant

Yes, that;s how I speculated the time. There is far too little between the charts. The only thing that seemed to make sense of your expressed feelings for him is that your Venus be exactly on his angle. (That was forced as a starting place of the spectification.)

[Veronica]

"PS - On a wild lark, try a birth time for him (purely speculative) of 4:00 AM"

If that is the case then what I see is my Venus sitting right on his desecdant

Yes, that;s how I speculated the time. There is far too little between the charts. The only thing that seemed to make sense of your expressed feelings for him is that your Venus be exactly on his angle. (That was forced as a starting place of the spectification.)

well isn't that special.
based on the things he has said to me, I think that this is the correct time.
doesnt really change where Im at in this relationship but does explain a lot of things.

[Jim Eshelman]

Notice that it gives him an angular Venus in the birthchart also.

[Veronica]

Notice that it gives him an angular Venus in the birthchart also.

missed that
you are so cool

[Veronica]

If he was born at 4am? that is a whole nother ball park isn't it. but I don't think it would change your response much at all.


potential trine between Craigs Sun/Mars conjunction in Cancer and My Jupiter/moon/Neptune conjunction in scorpio.

there also seems to be a trine of venus/pluto/Saturn/venus


I seem to have trouble understanding the blending that comes with conjunctions

looking at the angles I notice my mars just chilling all alone it seems.

[Veronica]

Last night I could not take the ambiguity of my relationship with Craig. It is very hard for me to call him. There is a lot of anxiety that things will go poorly. We both have impulse control issues, and are over sensitive. I do call, and we make small talk for a while and then he is trying to end the conversation and so I say that I need to speak to him face to face that I need to ask him something. He invites me over. I have no clue what I am going to really say, or what I hope to accomplish, but I had to try something.
I have always been very clear with him that Iove him, and that I cant even think of another man. He doesn’t seem to ever believe me, (I feel deep inside that he does though) or that that’s what he wants to hear. It’s the solid truth though, and it is playing with my head.
I am not the same woman
When I was with my husband I thought about other men, I’ve always thought about other men. I’ve flirted and been very naughty in some ways. I don’t have that in me any more, and it kills me that he doesn’t see that, or felt that.
Maybe I’m angry that my love didn’t change him, but he changed me, or jealous in some way.
When I arrive hes tidying up the kitchen and pretty much does that the whole time I am there. I basically straight out asked him if he had any intentions of getting back with me, that I cant take not being with him and just playing phone games with each other. To which I got something like “ im not looking for, I don’t have time, Im busy, its been months, Im with Teressa now, we can be friends”
Blood boils, seeing red. Mind racing.I told him “all or nothing, I cant only be your friend I am in love with you, I want to be your lover.” And he was decidedly like, I want us to be friends.

I said, “ok well be friends, I wont send you love letters or nice texts or anything, just friends.”
I grabbed my purse, turned around and left.
Went out to my car. Said F this Sh. And walked back up and in the house.
I needed to know what he meant by being friends.
I don’t have friends. I have people I like, people mostly like me, but I don’t go out and hang and have dinner parties or things friendly like. I used to. Didn’t get me anywhere. I am a friend. I call people, I go visit, I helped out. But nobody ever called me, nobody visits me. If I don’t put out the effort there is no contact. That my life.
He knows this, but I refreshed his memory. I challenged him and told him I was the best friend he would ever have, that I know him better then anyone else and understand him.
I told him I didn’t know what to do, that I wanted to build my life with him. I put it on him completely. He came and wooed me and now here I am still in love and wanting him, so I told him it was up to him. I asked if he wanted me to go away, to leave him alone, to stop. I said it was wrong for him to be talking to me like this if he was with her. I asked if he loved her and he said yea I guess. It didn’t even bother me, I’m sure he does love her in some way. This man is a master of watching how he says things. He doesn’t lie. Yet I know he loves me too, if he didn’t he would have me there. He wouldn’t be in contact at all. He’d just block my number and be done. He hates drama.
At one point when I am really getting on him and trying to get him to open up and be honest, he just says something like “you havnt been here in 5 months, what do you expect just to show up and then get married, I cant do that.” ( I had been there 4 times now since, once 3 weeks ago on a Sunday morning to bust up a party for him). We sat in the kitchen. I was there about an hour, it was late and I was tired.
So long story short.
We had a nice chat and cleared up a lot of things. I hugged and kissed him goodbye, told him I loved him and that I knew he loved me too in his own way.

I came home and checked our charts and I tell ya I was really impressed with what I saw going on in both of our charts. I didn’t look at our synastry chart yet. But our conversation definitely covered a lot of the ground that the aspect refer to, and I do think our relationship what ever it really is, is at a different level. I know that I am in a different head space for sure. I am still in love with him, and its ok with me that he’s not down for getting to entangled with me.
I do think that I changed him, even though I really didn’t intend to. I love him for how he treats me and I am sorry that I hurt him by leaving him when I get angry instead of dealing with the issue. I guess that I felt so comfortable with him, that I took for granted that he would be there when I cooled off.
Pluto mars and Saturn were on the descendant
Venus and the moon were conjunct both our n. Saturns
Mars and Pluto were conjunct my Venus

[Jim Eshelman]

Whew. For a few minutes there, I thought I was going to read point by point a murder confession

[Veronica]

I have always been attracted your sence of humor Mr. Eshelman.

I have always also been attracted to your ability to cut the BS, make people want to do their own work, and demonstrate self mastery in a very sensitive yet cool way.

I thought it was a point by point murder confession.

[Veronica]

I have spent some time looking at this relationship and seeing it from other birth angles. When I look at it just right, it really does appear that we are some sort of weird twin soul combination in a way, at least from the information I have been able to gather about what a soul mate star chart might have in it. The fact that under certain angles we line up to be a powerful pair is a very hard thing for me, to come to grips with. It forces me to examine myself and what I am, by virtue of this star contract that I have to be myself, the autonomous soul that I am.
I am complete, in this one little blip of what ever you want to call it, complete in my star chart to exist in time and space. We all are, yet it appears that when this autonomous dot comes across other dots, different reactions can occur, based on the true nature of that dot. My dot has a darkness and a light to it, and I think that my chart is a very special one, and I have saught validation for this my whole life. Maybe we all do. Yet like they say about seeking things, if you don’t find it within you will never find it without.
The utter possibility that the Universe in some precalculated way brought together two weird little souls like me and Craig and lined it up just right so that it felt alllllllllllmost like heaven, but not just quite, seems cruel and unjust., It seems sad that a girl like me would have such hardships and then to have her Hero come and make her feel a Union that seems out of this world and living on another plane, only to break them apart by stupid sexual fears, taboos, and pride is just sick.
It seems like the cards are stacked for us and against us.
Which is the truth of soul mates, the truth of the other holding up the mirror to the beloved and saying this is the good and this is the bad and this is just how it is. By acknowledging that I had longed for another to complete me, that I had felt such bliss and lost it, forced me to reconcile myself in a way that I didn’t know was possible.
In my world in my head, I think a very strange way. It’s a way filled with animals that talk and trees that smile, and an innate oneness that comes from being blessedly close to nature. When I told Craig at the beginning of our relationship that I wanted to be an Angel, I meant it to the fullest extent of my being and I even spent most of my life working towards doing that. I love this world and it sickeness me to see see such ugliness when I know it doesn’t have to be that way.
All my life I just wanted people to get along.
Yet here I was, not able to get along with myself
Not able to get along with anybody much
And not even able to get along with my soul mate.
What hell is this and why did I sign up for this crap.
I turned on the tv to calm my mind and settled on a nature show. It was about Komodo dragons. We don’t know much really, but we did find that if you keep a female locked up and alone for long enough, it gives birth anyways. It feels an inner need, longing and within itself it finds what it needs to fulfill itself. Nature in Her wisdom finds a way, through Love. I would walk to the gates of Hell with Craig, no problem. I have no fear of Hell, I come and go freely it seems. I am not afraid of any such construct. Craig brings me to my own gate though. He makes me so happy that the sound of his voice could pull me back to life in an instant. That longing for union with bliss is what makes the dragon conceive, she knows and remembers and wants it. She has everything she need with herself, we all do.
So it makes me think of some sayings like
Fake it till you make it
or
Shot for the heavens because if you fail at least you will end up in the stars.

Thank you for being so open and honest with me in what you see in this relationship. It is very special to me, and Im sure no matter what time craig was really born in, that Im special to him too. And that’s cool because he really is a great man in his heart, and I wish he would be able to show it more.

[Veronica]

all my life it seems I wanted love

I don't want it
I cant take it
it hurts to much

I don't know what is going on with me
and I don't know what is going on with this thing I have with/for Craig.

I know I feel like im dead when we are apart or are upset with each other
and I feel im in heaven when I am with him and we are being nice to each other

I tried to be his friend.

for all this time since I posted about me showing up......I tried. I tried to be his friend.
we textexted and talked and I had him help me with things that I needed help with, and it felt like we were getting back together.
we were flirty and nice
and warm.
he invited me over to go inthe hot tub, but I couldnt go. I had my period and my daughter was alone. june 2nd
I was so happy though because I thought if he was making that inenudo that he wanted us to be a couple.
we continuted talking everyday and such and on the 16th I went over and had a beautiful night with him, talking and just enjoying being together, the hot tub was great, and then I gave him a bakc rub (becuase I had previously lost a bet with him in cards and owed him one) and then he asked if I wanted to fool around....
I was so happy and hopefull
but that monday, when he had said he would give me ride to get my car fixed and I showed up, and the other girl was there....

I flipped out. I really flipped out. I told her everything, screaming it all throught the front door since he wouldn't let me in... how we had been together, how my bracelt was in his bed, how he told me he loved me....I told the truth.
but when I said he loved me,
he told her I was lying.

and thats when I blacked out, I smashed his window and drove my car around his yard and then drove over to his "secret home" that he bought in april that he had been hiding from me, and I smeared the blood that was dripping down my arm from my wounds at smashing his window all over the garage door and sent him a snap shot, along with lots of ugly words and threats.

I am sick, and I just cry and cry and I try to do things to shake it, I have been trying for so long to move on. to do healthy things, to just stop this insanity......but Im stuck and feel broken and lost most of the time and just about at my end.

my father has an apartment house that he let my exhusbad move into, and months ago when I told him that I was being evicted soon we worked out how I would be able to move in over there. 2 weeks ago, when I told my dad that I needed to get moving on that bc I had no where else to go and no place will take me and my dogs, he said that I was a liar, that he had never said that to me, that he wasnt evicting Myexhusbands ex girlfriend and that me and my kids woud have to make some hard descionions about the dog.

this is the man who has 5 kids who he has put through school, bought houses for, paid laywers to keep out of jail.....hundreeds of thousansd of dollars he has spent onm y siblings, but never once in my life have I asked him for anything. I did it all by my self, I gradutated highschool living on my own, put myself through school, took the tests for my library jobs, saved my money and bought my own home.

I am just detroyed by the feelings that are going through me, and no music or song or work out or mediation or prayer seems to help much at all.

if this is what love is, if this is how people show love I dont want any part of it any more.

I would have never slept with craig and did all that if I thought he was still with that girl. a part of me feels like craig is as maddly in love/hate with me as I am and just has no skill at communicating his feelings to me, but through his actions (cheating/liying/ ignoring/ ect) is not trying to push me away so much as to push away the bs jealousy and insecurities we have.

I dont want to end up in the looney bin.
I have been thinking today that I need to just pretend that he is dead and like a widow who has lost her life long love, just push down all this sorrow and regret and bad stuff. but hes not dead and that feels so false, but it maybe better to pretend that I had the love of my life and he died, then to try to do anything more and end up dead myself.

[Jim Eshelman]

OK, chica, now you're worrying me.

This is out of control behavior (you already knew that, right?). I don't care what the charts show, he might be useful to you but there's no way this relationship is good for you.

I think he's at least been pretty clear, by his actions, that he's not monogamous. At the very least, any future relationship with him has to accept that you would be one of multiple women with whom he is sexually active; and, from what you've said, he certainly isn't helpful to you in your life (which may or may not be part of the 'contract').

But the very fact that you, an inherently kindly (albeit wild) soul could be this destructive says that this just isn't good for you. (You've known me long enough to know I essentially never say that about a relationship. I'll describe behaviors but not levy a final "should vs. shouldn't" judgment. This time, you're getting my judgement.)

You are also putting other things at risk. (How do you think news of this around town will affect your ongoing legal proceedings?) Transiting Pluto is exactly semi-square your Jupiter, so you're willing to put your financial sustainability and your reputation and credibility on the line for vindictiveness?

Neptune is in orb of transiting square to your Mars. You have another year or two of this. Read about it in the Transits section, please, and get used to it, and figure out how you are going to manage it. Right now, Uranus is also sesqui-square your Mars, so read that - these two transits tell you a lot about the reactions you just had and the actions you took.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Neptune is in orb of transiting square to your Mars. You have another year or two of this. Read about it in the Transits section, please, and get used to it, and figure out how you are going to manage it.

V, Mars-Neptune aspects was known by the early Sidereal Astrologers as a 'tormenting' aspect. You need to recognize you are allowing Craig to torment you with this long transit of Neptune squaring your Natal Mars. Mentally, you must come to grips with this astrological Mars-Neptune cycle in your life, and recognize the truth of Jim's words when he says "there's no way this relationship (Craig) is good for you." The more you are around Craig, the more he is going to torment you. You have got to take your mind and release Craig from your life. When you do this and allow the 2 year transit of Neptune to your Natal Mars to pass, other good men will come into your life.

[Veronica]

I am worried too, as well as scared out of my mind at times, which is why I had to share and ask for help.
Reflecting on “he might be useful to me…..no way this relationship is good for me”

Craig has always been like a swiss army knife in my life, he has the capability to do so much for me, but by my own nature I cannot bring myself to use him, and it is not good for me to have these tools. Or I don’t know how to properly use this tool, and that upsets me greatly. We are all tools in a way for others to use for our own growth.
I know that I am the one tormenting myself, I understand that the thoughts and dreams I have of him, torturous dreams on many different levels, some good some bad are my own making and arise from my own personal path in life and inclination. I am a aware that I am projecting upon him my own stuff, and using him as a mirror for processing myself. That is a behavior that humans seems to do, and it is a hard habit to get out of.
I have been looking into those aspect, when you had brought them up previously and thinking long and hard about it and what type of plan of action I could have to deal with this long stretch of hellishness I have upon me.
You know how in the past I was a very squeaky clean person: I prided myself on my “good habits” and walking a path that I felt was the most harmonious I could with the natural world…..don’t drink don’t smoke, speaking lovingly, recycle reuse reduce, conscious consumerism and all of the that sort of left over Hippie ideals (which BTW I read an interesting article about the generation of people born under the same conjunction I am and the natural affinity we all seen to have with Gaia and environmental causes).
With Craig all of that ego identity stuff flew out the window, and I stopped being that person in a very real way. I drank and got drunk (not often but enough, I smoke, and did strange drugs, I stopped shopping at Trader Joes, I stopped reading and writing, no more yoga or long walks in the woods, I barely gardened, and what I did grow…..didn’t help my situation.
I am not excusing my behavior and lacksa daisy habits, but a part of me feels that I was soooooo judgmental before of people being blind to what I saw as the best way to live on this planet with out polluting, raping the earth, destroying the atmosphere, and passive suicidal behaviors (which addiction, smoking drinking, fast life style is) that I needed to Know how it felt to do all of those things that I had actually been violently adverse to. But maybe that is just a cop out. Maybe it was mee saying Im tired of all this work I am doing and I just want to kick back and not give a flying dutchman anymore like everyone else seems to. Which from my co-dependent part in life and always having to be the sober person in the room of crack heads in case the cops showed up, is probably very true.

Craig is as monogamous as any other man on this planet, biologically driven like we all are. He, like most all fellas will take an opportunity if presented, and he will push limits and see how far he can get away with things, like humans do. I understand men are not biologically programmed to be monogamous, for the most part. I would just like people to be honest. He knows from the deep conversations that we have had, that I know that about men, and he knows too though that I will not be a secret lover, I will not deceive another woman, I will not go behind a friends back (this girl was my friend, I thought) and steal her mate. I don’t share sexually, and I am not interested in orgies and casual sex.
When my first boyfriend told me that he wanted to watch me having sex with another man, my heart was shattered and I never felt the same towards him. But I now think that those sort of thoughts are natural in a mans mind, on some levels and he was attempting to bring the love that he did have for me to another level, he felt inadequate as he told me, and wanted me to be fulfilled. What he didn’t understand was I felt fulfilled and that he was more then adequate, and the love that I wanted to attain could only come from me feeling safe and secure and possessed by one person. Same thing with Craig, I know I am a very sexually intimating person, and men see me as a wild creature to be subdued, among other things. it must be very hard for a man to love me, to go in public with me and see how other men gawk and all that. Craigs sun/mars drives him to fire up quick and he doesn’t need a wild child like me invoking those strong feelings which would end up with him smashing the other guys and going to jail because they talked to me.
As you know I have deep sexual drives and “normal” men have no concept of what my goals are in the realm of Love, but they sure catch wind of some deep need I have and they are frustrated because they do not understand my perspective and drive. Which is why I think Craig believes I am out boinking other people causally, which is the complete opposite of what my goals for union are.
This relationship as it is, is not good for me, nor can it be good for him.

I am making an appointment today with my midwife for a review of my hormones, I am at the very least premenopausal, with full menopause to follow. I know that these crazy strong feelings I have are due to this change, and I have to get this under control because my nature is super sensitive and I have a lot of life yet to live and a lot of good things to look forward to and I cant let my body run amuck. It sucks to admit powerlessness but it’s the truth.
I also plan on going back to my al-non meeting to help me deal with the addicts in my life and get me around people who have hope and are working on being better healthier people and getting tools that I can use to enhance myself and my children’s life. I need to model for them healthy choices and get back into my old practices of balance and harmony.
Right now, with as toxic as I feel from these few years of debauchery I feel the need to cleanse and get back on track, but with this transit I feel very much like a super volcano attempting to burst from the depths of the pacific, but there is this Tsunami going on that is working against me. So as I understand this transit, or as I work to understand this transit I need to be mindful, as mindful as I have ever been and be the Master of my own thoughts and when these feeling/hormones get working against my will/action it is important for me to have a healthy outlet to channel them into, like my poetry or singing and dancing and creative artistic outlets.
I have Dr. Christine Northrups Book called the wisdom of menopause and I will be reading that as well.
I do also understand the deep need I have to have other people in my life, and even though it is very frightening in away for me to get out in public and be apart of the world at large, I understand there are other good people (not just men ) who would be a blessing to have in my life. That’s why I went to the concert last week, and why I will probably go see the Lynard Skynard band this weekend too. Even though crowds are very hard on my ultra sensitive nature, it does me good to see other people having a good time, even though it is challenging for me to relate.
I really value everyone’s feedback and insights and concern, and I am thankful to have you all as a sounding board and an outstretched hand. It anchors me into reality, which for my flighty nature and wildness is so very important.

[Jim Eshelman]

Craig is as monogamous as any other man on this planet, biologically driven like we all are.

His chart suggests he is much more driven than most men in that direction. He has a partile Sun-Mars conjunction so, statistically, he is very much more driven to sexually compete, conquer, gather, own, control, and figuratively (if not literallty) beat his chest and crow.

Sure, we all have something of this in us - men and women alike - men more than women - and partile Sun-Mars conjunctions more than anyone (And in Cancer, he needs to be able to "show off his medals" and get admiration for it.)

I have no judgment in tbis, of course - only whether or not it works for you (you've been clear it does not).

I almost didn't add these remarks because they aren't directly helpful to your current situation. But I think they're indirectrly helpful. Your remark above tells me you still have illusions about him, that you're relating more to an idea about him rather than seeing him for what he is.

This isn't easy, I know. There are powerful emotions surging and, yes, the hormonal shifts may be a big part of that (though your transits show it by themselves). In reading your above post, my primary impression, though, was that you spend most of your time defending him and talking about what he needs, etc. - attention on looking out for him - rather than putting attention on looking out for yourself.

I think you need to give first priority to looking out for yourself. FWIW.

[Veronica]

ever since the first time Craig accused me of "other men" I have been sooooooo perplexed how he could not be seeing/Knowing the real me, and see how that wasn't possible. I don't like unsolved mysteries!

You are absolutely right that I am not seeing him correctly.

if he is not seeing me correctly too.

if though I push this down to deep levels, and think about how the sciences of psychology/Physics and the arts of spiritual traditions espouse the idea that everything is an illusion and that the matter/things/people that a soul encounters is a manifestation of something within being projected out then I would have to admit that me not being able to see Craig as he truly is is a very strong indicator that the truth is, there is something about *me* that I am not seeing correctly.


my psyche, like I am sure a lot of psyches, has aspects that are latent and unexpressed, it also has aspects that I do think I have a good awareness of but for some reason yet unknown to me, I am unable to except or reconcile within myself. denial.


I suppose one of the blessed things about doing soul work, is that for me I have an archtypal image of myself....I am my own Angel, and I aspire to bring this human shell as close to that perfected state that I hold close to my heart. yet this society does not like wild women very much at all, and so I have veiled and veiled and veiled things, in a false attempt to protect that archtypical image of self that I have.


I have denied who I am, truly, for what ever reason (safety/fear/lazy?) and I dont honestly think I will have healthy relationships with anybody (seeing people as they are truelly and accepting them as that) until I can except my own self. becasue if everyone in my world is actually only a projection of something in my own psyche, I am projecting a diluted or foggy or distorted aspect out, there would be no way to interpret that accurately.


him accusing me of cheat with freaking crackheads who at 40 live in thier moms basement was the most mind blowing thing.

it enraged me. hes a much better scrapper then me though and avioded most of my blows.
it hurts to not be seen
it hurts to, to not been seen as you see yourself

but it hurts more to not be able to see yourself and i really hope to get better at being able to see myself correctly.


that is the difference between Sidreal Astrology and anything else, thats the insight you can only get through the cold hard facts of space and time acturately manifested in a birth chart:)

[Veronica]

Ive been thinking a lot about my poor vision and not seeing things as they are.

but I know that our sences lie to us, so I dont trust what I see or hear.

I trust what I Know, and that comes from my heart not my head.

I placed my life in the hands of the cosmos once and said, I dont trust anything except that I Know you love me so I will align myself to that and surrender my fight and believe that what comes my way, came from that place of love.

[Veronica]

I wanted to clarify something here.

"In fact Mr. Eshelman is the only man I trust to speak the truth to me, with love."

I said that in response to a comment made about Sidreal Astrologists and the subperb understanding they have at understanding cycles and nature and inclinations about life.

Mr. Eshelman has made his life work about helping people about giving them a hand up and one of his best tools is astrology but thats not his only tool.

I came back to this board and shared my story and shared my baggage not because I wanted attention from people or because i wanted accolades for who I am or because I believed that if i knew my neptune was squaring craigs sun i would find repreive.

I am here because Mr Eshelman, Danica and Jupiter are my friends and I love and missed them and I knew like the good friends they are they would listen and be glad I was still alive and kicking and try to give me a hand.

And they did, with every tool they had.
Thats what friends do.

[Veronica]

Jupiter Sets at Dawn said:

" Your Sun is square his Neptune"

in looking at my charts with most of the people in my age group, I have this.

it would seem to me that my inclination to love an ideal of some one whom my sun is squaring their Neptune is a generational/peer condition that I have and not just with Craig. I think it goes hand in hand with my sun being Aquarian and seeing the best in people at the moment (letting go of the past) and wishing that they actualize the potential i am able to see latent in every person I see.

i tried playing around with birth dates of people out of my age group so that I can have a better chance of being around people that do not bring out this quality. is there a quick way to generate dates that bring the parameters i am looking for specifically sun not squaring Neptune?

I think being aware of this tendency now that I can see it for what it is, a hindrance to authentic relationships, or relationships based upon pure fantasy (Eric) is going to be very helpful. thank you for saying it right up front.
my sister gave me a pin once that said "Im a natural blonde please speak slowely"

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Your Sun is at 5 Aqu 4:52 giving about 5° leeway.
Neptune was at 0 Sco Feb 8th, 1967 and retrograded out March 14, 1967
It arrived back Nov 22, 1967 and bopped back out the 19th of June, 1968
Re-entered Sept 19th, 1968 and reached 10 Sco 05 on Jan 12, 1972
Retrograded to 10 Sco 05 on May 4, 1972 and came back past for good Nov 13, 1972

You have Neptune at 8 Sco 40:10. You also have the Moon at 7 Sco 44:20 and Jupiter at 10 Sco 29:29.
So you might want to skip a range of people with Neptune from about 2 Sco 04 to around 13 Sco 35.
Neptune goes retrograde and direct several times, but hits 2 Sco 04 about the
beginning of Feb 1968 thru the end of March 1968
mid November 1968 thru the end of June, 1969
mid Sept 1969 thru the end of Dec 1973

You can look this up yourself by going to astro.com and on the extended chart page, choose Ephemeris for the chart type, choose Ephemeris for 10 years and remember to change to the Sidereal zodiac with the Fagan/Bradley ayanamsa.
Then just look at the Neptune column.

[Veronica]

awsome!
thank you so much!! you rock:)

[Veronica]

I am so glad you said something. It just finally clicked. thanks a million!!
this one aspect in my own personal chart, which is one of my own personal challenges, is mirrored in my relationships with peers. It is a major theme in my relationships with a huge population of people I have had to interact with my whole life. which explains why i dont have many friends my age. And why i dont really care to be around people in that age group, and why i wish that craig would stop hanging out with all his old high school chums 24/7.
it just explains so much, and so many levels, why the the girls my age have their issues with me and copycatted me and how the males see me as an angel or demoness. we have rose colored or foggy or muddy glasses.
I know from now on I will be able to deal on a much healthier playing field when i interact with people in my peer group. its really mind boggling how important a hard aspect off the sun to a outer planet really set the tone for repeated negative experiences with others, unless both parties are able to see the challenge and not let it ruin other interesting aspects that might arise in their synasty.
concidering my parents didnt know about Sidreal astology I find it very striking that my one of the meanings if my name is "true Image" lol.....the onther one is "to bring or carry....victory.... that fits too

[Veronica]

Veronica. Your Sun is square his Neptune. You don't love this man. You love your idea of this man. From what you said in the other thread, you keep trying to remake this man into what you want, and he's not interested. (and who tries to act like a role model for a grown man? He's not what you want. Never was. Your Neptune-Moon is square his Mercury. He can't rely on what you say because you're all caught up in your own dreamy emotions, to the point you can't even see this guy.

As for anything else... I'm sorry, but what you think is there isn't. There's no strong aspects between your charts. No signs of love and almost no sign of lust either. This relationship isn't about him. It's about what you want, and you're using him as a mannequin to create your fantasy. When he doesn't live up to your dreams, you're disappointed and you make sure he knows it. I'm sure we could make up something about some of the wider aspects, but honestly, there's no foundation there to build on. Doesn't matter how hard you work. Without a foundation, it won't stand.

You're willing do all kinds of work to try to keep this fantasy. Real love doesn't take work. It takes caring about the other person's feelings, and that is not showing in these two charts. What's really the problem? You've spent so much time on this you don't want it to go to waste? Sorry it's already wasted. Don't throw more time and work at this relationship. There is no relationship here to work on.

Leave this man alone. He's to the point trying to get rid of you he's setting up situations where you get physically hurt. What's going to get through to you? Does he have to set up a situation where one of your kids or animals gets hurt. Don't say "Oh he would NEVAH!" because your fantasy based on him maybe wouldn't, but you don't know what this guy might do because you don't know this real man at all.

When people tell you who they are and how they feel about you, believe them.

I'm sorry.

I think I am at the point where I can honestly talk about what Jupiter at Dawn is revealing here about me.

If you read her words superficially, it would seem like a harsh response to a person who genuinely is struggling, and it could be misinterpreted. I know that I have come back to her words many times and read and read and read them, knowing that these words hurt, but also knowing that she is not saying them to be mean or critical or abusive or bad in any way. She is saying them from Love and only from love can you really understand what she knows.

I am a woman. Beyond what ever my chart says about me and who I am as a soul. I am a biologically driven organism. My most primal and fundamental needs are biological and chemically driven, (which I do also understand as a mainfestion of the Stellar influences on my core genetic code, but regardless).
Please correct me if my conclusion is wrong, but I don’t feel that it is.
She said that she was sorry, twice.
She was not sorry that she didn’t see any awesome synastry in my chart between me and craig. She wasn’t sorry that my planets didn’t line up with his in some cool fashion that astrology can say, “oh, look at that, you guys got some cool kinky sex, or deep love of good food, or you both like chilling at the beach”

She was sorry because she could plainly see that what I wanted was never ever going to happen. That the sweetest dream a woman could have, would never ever happen. She could see and feel my pain, knowing that I had in my life a man who I loved and wanted to risk my very life to bring into this world more of.

I first remember seeing Craig when I was in 5th grade. I remember watching him in 7th grade. I remember hoping he would talk to me in 9th grade, I rembember wishing he would ask me out in 11th grade, I remember when I graduated and my friend asked me to not go out with him because “he was so dreamy, and Veronica, you can have any man you want, let me have him.” And it broke my heart and I gave up. I wanted him, and he never asked me out. Timid. That’s the word from his placements.
The most powerful man in my town, is timid of me.

So many times I have dreamed that I went up to him in 5th grade and asked him to go ride bikes, so many times I have dreamed that in 7th grade I went up to him and asked him to come over and listen to music, so many times I wished in 9th grade that I told him to forget about picking up his boyfriend and to take me to the park in his cool car and so many times I dreamed that when my friend said that I could have any man I wanted, that I told her, I want him and only him.

Sometimes I dream that I can turn back time, that I can put my brakes down and cause this whole wheel to come to a screcthing hault, and then shift into low reverse and power my way back, forcing the stars themselves to stop in their tracks and by my will move back in time to that point when I first saw him in line going to the lunch room. Yet I know that things cycle around, and that is how it goes and I cant go willy nilly stopping the clock. I tell ya though, sometimes I feel like I can, I feel that powerful sometimes.

I was with j for ten years because the man just wouldn’t go away. I knew I wasn’t going to have a baby with him. I remember as a teen telling my brother when he would ask why I wouldn’t go out with so and so…..id say “whats the point, I know I am not going to have a baby with him” I knew it with J, yet I needed a handler, and he was capable to a point, so I let him try to handle me, knowing it was fruitless.

I was with Eric for 13 years, because my biological being needed children. Yet he never said he wanted to have babies with me. He never said, in moments of intimacy, anything to make be feel loved, valued or kindness.

“When people tell you who they are and how they feel about you, believe them.”
Craig told me who he was. His own word to describe his birth and who is at his core completely encapsulates him. He is a secret. I know that and I have always known that about him and how he walks his path and what he does with his time. He wont marry me because he is not what he is named and he has yet to claim his own real name.

In Craigs chart it shows one specific trait, that he fathers boys, has sons. This is the fact. This is why he has his friends. They are his sons that he never had. This is why I have trouble with his friends, because I didn’t see them as that. I saw them as grown men who should stop mooching off him. But children don’t mooch off parents. His friends even call him dad, daddio, pops ect…..

Craig told me how he feels about me, and it was the most beautiful and heartbreaking thing anyone could ever say to a woman. He said something that J and eric never felt or said or acted on.
But I cant give it to him, I cant give him a real son.
That’s what Jupiter Knows, that’s why she said she was sorry, twice. One for me, and one for him.
You asked me what the real problem was
And I guess all I can say is How do you live with the fact that what you wanted most of all will never ever come to pass? I know in this world, I can have anything I want, any material thing I can work and grind and achieve and fulfill that desire. But how do you live having a desire that goes beyond all space and time and will never ever come to pass. How do you turn that desire into something else and focus it so it doesn’t make you start sobbing in line at the grocery store?

“there is no relationship here to work on”
And that’s the truth, Craig and I didn’t have to work on our relationship, it just was natural love
Life, now that is work, but not love.

[Veronica]

Thank you for understanding.

My heart goes out to those who know the feeling.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

My heart goes out to you, because you know this feeling. But I am heartened by your looking at what you are going through and why. You'll get through this, but more than that, you'll look at why you let this happen to you, and find a way to keep it from happening again. And eventually, not soon, but eventually, you'll find a way to have a relationship that's not based on Neptunian dreams, but grounded in reality and truth. That's what you need as much as any fantasy. You require truth and facts and understanding.

Did you know time passes faster in the mountains than it does at sea level? The Sun doesn't directly attract the Earth, and the Earth doesn't directly attract the Sun. Each of them displaces space and time, exactly the way we displace water when we get in a full tub. What the Earth and the Sun do is fall toward each other. Falling.. gravity.. is a function of time slowing. Time is slower on the floor than it is on a table. So things fall off tables and go down because time is slower closer to the earth. Things out in space don't fall. They float. Till they get close to something bigger, which slows time around itself. Then they fall toward the slower time. We say they gravitate toward the other thing.

[Veronica]

Thank you for your faith and encouragment.

I dont think I knew that, or understood it the way you explained. Its beautiful to think about. Thank you for that.

I know why I let this happen and I know what to do, be like Craig and ask straight out like Ive heard him say a million times "whatcha tryn to do? Whatcha need" and lay it straight out.

[Veronica]

I just checked the topographical maps.
My new home is 200+ feet closer to the heavens then where I was.
Thats incouraging.

[Veronica]

When I first posted about me and Craig this spring Mr. Eshelman said he didn’t see what I saw in the natal charts to make us seem like a good match. He even said he wouldn’t have encouraged this relationship. He wouldn’t have to do any encouraging, the Universe wants what it wants.

.I have been trying to share with you all what this relationship feels like and what has been going on inside of me.. its out of this world in so many ways and I struggle everyday that I don’t see Craig or hear his voice or get some sign that from him. These are most intense feelings I have every felt.
I understand why now.
The chart I did look at, the one that I felt was a true reflection of this relationship though, was a midpoint composite chart. Something that I didn’t understand but at the moment I saw it years and years ago, I knew that this relationship was a one of a kind. It was the most beautiful thing I had every seen.

Its more then a one of a kind. It’s the only kind. With in this composite chart are some of the strongest indicators of love and growth and challenge and teaching and communication and beauty and of a love that does reach across time and space. Just like the song I wrote for Craig and shared here, trying to show you all what was going on in my soul with this man.

I have looked at the composite midpoint charts of my first boyfriend and my husband because I knew what those relationship I knew what those felt like and were in real life.
I have spent some time in the past few day looking at hundreds’ of other composite charts of people I know and all sorts of different relationships, and spent a lot of time going over what the significance of these conjunctions are and what the deeper meanings of them imply. It is insane in a way that the universe brought us together, it is crazy how the universe said, not oinly will we give you too, this rare and wonderful relationship conjuction/aspect….but we are going to give you one on top of each other.

I was struck, back then that Every single planet in our charts was in conjunction with another one. It just seemed like our energies messed in the most deeply intimate and beyond time and space kind of way.


Our Sun/Saturn midpoints are conjunct………
Our Moon/pluto midpoints are conjunct
Our mars/Uranus midpoints are conjunct
Our venus/Jupiter midpoints are conjunct
And our Mercury/Neptune midpoints in our composite chart are conjunct.

Those are all very very significant conjunctions and from what I have read, completely explain all the pain and longing and dead feeling and the cold stone I have in my gut about not being with this man and the loss I feel that I will never hold him in my arms again.

I should say that most people go a life time and never have a relationship with midpoint conjunctions with anyone, especially these significant ones, and here we have two souls who have known each other since childhood in a very real way, who have an obvious deep psychological astrological relationship that was meant to be in some way, and one that will be probably the most influential one of our lifetime. Craig is irreplaceable, he is my one and only and I have no interest anything but getting through each day and waiting for us to be together again. He taught me more then anyone in the wolrd could possibly, he brought more light all my stuff then it seemed possible and I am a better person for having him. Regardless that the universe, and everyone one else seems to want to keep us apart and all that drama that we create because we are working on our own souls with each other.

I feel blessed that the Universe gave this relationship to me, and that I have the opportunity to grow and teach and love and talk and experience all the ups and downs of life.

I understand that in psychology as well as astrology it is sometimes helpful or necessary to tell little white lies, to not let the patient take in more then they can assimilate and use and that more information is sometimes very detrimental to the person. I try not to get upset that I am just now understanding the truly miraculous significance that this relationship implies to me and to him , and to trust that the Universe knows what it is doing and I try not to force things and let them.

I know that all things are possible with god and the universe, but I have say that I don’t think either of us will ever find any other person who is so completely perfect for what our souls truly need, and I hope that you all are blessed with a relationship of this strength and breadth and magnitude and gravity because it is a chance for you to let the universe work with and through you to transform you to another level of spiritual understanding and human connectedness and life growth.

When I asked what it was that made my eyes shine,
It was hope that I had,
Until I met craig
And now the only thing that makes them shine is thinking of him and hoping he is thinking of me and remembering the bliss and joy and fun and ease and naturalness that our relationshipship has

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Yeah well, let him come find you this time. Let him do his share. People can't be strong if you don't let them.

[Veronica]

Yeah well, let him come find you this time. Let him do his share. People can't be strong if you don't let them.

thanks Jupiter I apprciate your Rich words.

He found me the first time and he has more then his share of work to do, I tell him everyday I love him and have for five years now. Im not going to stop reminding him. the world is a cold lonely sad place at times and its nice to get a message from someone you cant be with that cheers you up and helps lessen the weight of the world. Our chart IMO is solid proof of Sidreal astrology and what it actually is on a biological level. those midpoints are harsh by themselves but we have some of the roughest toughest ones and we are still in love with each other in our own way.
beauty is symatry and our rollercoaster of ups and down goes to places higher then dreamers can dream and lower then demons can dig, yet we are still standing strong and I fo one know that no other relationship can touch or chance or compare to this one. not Romeo and Juileiet or Tristan and ISolde, or Psyche and Eros, for we are real and not a made up fantasty. flesh and blood whihc is the most beautiful thing in the whole world.
Craig is the strongest man in the whole world, and works from dust to dawn in his own way as best he can. He would have to be the strongest man in the world if he can endure me and still care about me after all this, and looking at our midpoint I would say the Mar/Uranus runs the show and I will follow where the universe and God brings me.

[Veronica]

from The bridge of san luis rey by thornton wilder.

"Now he discovered that the secret from which one never quite recovers, that even in the most perfect love one person loves less profoundly than the other. There may be two equally good, equally gifted, equally beautiful, but there may never be two that love another equally well."

"There is a land of the living and a land of the dead and bridge is love, the only survival, the only meaning."

I read the first quote last week when I was researching the origin of the word love. I sobbed and sobbed for it seemed so true in my life and truly was a secret that I wont ever recover from.

Its truth is plain as the nose on my face, and philosophers and artists and scientists and spiritual leaders have all tried in thier own way to find the language to express it.

When we humans love another so much and it is not returned it is akin to death itself and many have faded into the abyss upon realizing that they loved more then the beloved loved back.

It has been one of mankinds driving forces for self destruction as well as creation with some people and cultures warring against others in a stance for survival and feigned supremecy and as well as capitpulting other people and cultures to strive for excellence and mastery in a feigned attempt to be more.

To destroy the beloved for rejection
Or to recreate for the beloveds approval.

Its a hard pill to swallow knowing that in love it will not be equal. Its painful and humbling and a host of other feelings that arise when love is reflected upon and realized to be unequal.

Through the ages though attempts have been made to consol and placate the afflicted one who loves so much more, To give counsel and hope that though this understanding of non equality seems like an end to all the heart could bear....it is a bridge to ever lasting joy.

It must be so.
It is so
And while it may strike at the hearts strings to know that the enormous love one feels for another is not met in kind, comfort and joy can arise through the understanding of the self and how the self also loves itself unequally.

The nature of humans lies in self talk and in that self talk: are we not our own biggest critic and motivator, always striving to best ourselves, questioning our wants and needs and drives and passions. Correcting our form and changing our very being as we self reflect?
Do we not show to part of our being ways upon which to create better more harmonious ways of relating to our environment? Eveloution shows that we do change that some stimulus arises that forces unusful things to fade and useful things to develop.
We with in our own self favor and disfavor aspects of ourself, selves that we seemingly should love on equal ground. Yet the ground is allways changing and thus so is everything and if an aspect is so ridged as to be immovable and equal throughout then when a change in circumstance arises as they will the ridged will break yet the yielding will flex.

And thus is love the bridge between life and death, that which we feel is good and whole and right and that which we feel is dead broken and wrong.
................................................................


I met a remarkable man who I cherish and wish to be with.
But he doesnt love me equally.
He is the love of my life.
But I am not his.

He will never come for me.
He will never call
Or write
Or extend himself to me not even to meet me half way.

You all know this.

He needs to feel like he is the prize
And if he comes to me, well then Im the prize and he looks and feels weak.

People are only strong if you let them you say.

He will never come because he doesnt love me or care about anything but protecting his ego. He doesnt know the real me and he doesnt care too.

He wont even call his own daughter and try to work out issues with her. And he wont protect his mother and half sister from his step dads nasty tounge.

Why on earth should I dare to dream that one day he will call on his own?

His is content in his own self made prision.

I cant do his soul work for him and he doesnt want to do anything but forget.

Thank you for trying to give me hope but realistically....

Hes moved on and Im not going to pretend hes something that hes not.

If he was...what i pretend....then i wouldnt be writting this....id be living my happily ever after.

He called me last week after he accidental thumbdowned an erotic dream i had written to him (the one sexually explicit letter out of hundreds of heart felt other stories i send him) and it made me cry that he didnt like my dream. I used the cry emoji to respond to his down thumb.

He called and said it was an accident he had hit the button by mistake....and then at midnight....he said he had to go cut his dogs nails. After months of no response from him.....his dogs nails were more important then talking to me. Yet he did want me to know he liked reading my sexually explict dreams. Didnt ever care to tell me he liked any of my other stories I had written for him....just the sex one.

He only cares about feeling like he is the prize....but i cant make him feel that way anymore because he would rather cut his dogs nails then talk to me and make me feel like a prize.

I am a prize and somebody out there will have the courage to show and tell me.
And if not
Ill just keep reminding myself.
I have to.
Its too painful if i believe what he wants me to believe about myself.

[Veronica]

Did you know time passes faster in the mountains than it does at sea level? The Sun doesn't directly attract the Earth, and the Earth doesn't directly attract the Sun. Each of them displaces space and time, exactly the way we displace water when we get in a full tub. What the Earth and the Sun do is fall toward each other. Falling.. gravity.. is a function of time slowing. Time is slower on the floor than it is on a table. So things fall off tables and go down because time is slower closer to the earth. Things out in space don't fall. They float. Till they get close to something bigger, which slows time around itself. Then they fall toward the slower time. We say they gravitate toward the other thing.

Thank you for saying this.
I hear it playing over and over in my mind somedays trying to wrap my confused mind and heart around things. I dont know what it means but I know from my emotional reaction to it, it means something and after a few tears I feel peace. Its was a beautiful thing for you to say and I am deeply grateful that you did, as I said I think about it all the time.
Maybe I should climb Mt Everest like some heroes of mine. I had been thinking of moving to West Virginia and finding a country road to call my own when my lease is up. I like that song anyways.
Thanks again for you kind helpful and touching words.

[SteveS]

Veronica wrote:

Maybe I should climb Mt Everest like some heroes of mine. I had been thinking of moving to West Virginia and finding a country road to call my own when my lease is up.

Country roads are beautiful! Take if from someone who loves driving, biking, and walking certain country roads with very little traffic.

[Veronica]

They are quiet and private as well.
I wouldnt be able to move, but Id like to get lost wandering around looking for ancient trees for a while.
Its a nice thought. Maybe a vacation there.

I like the thought of the mountains. Its a different earth air and water then the stuff around here.