Sagittarius (Garth Allen)

[Jim Eshelman]

Show of Hands
(from "Perspectives in the Sidereal" by Garth Allen, American Astrology 9/73;
reproduced from a much earlier "Powwow Corner" in the '50s or '60s)

Fagan's ingenious reconstruction of what must have been the original zodiacal melothesia (allocation of the zodiac to parts of the body) has paved a new highway for research. New ideas, spurts of realization and meaty comparisons pop into the inquisitive mind which toys with the just-the-reverse framework of rulerships. At long last we have an "explanation" for many erstwhile puzzles, such as the study some years ago by a prominent astrologer of accidents to the head – a study of actual cases in which the tropical sign Aries was noticeably uninvolved in most instances.

The original "General Tom Thumb" of Barnum circus fame was born January 4, 1838, under sidereal Sagittarius, which proves nothing of course except that his name is so interestingly apt in the light of Sagittarius' pertinence to the hands and things associated with them. One thinks automatically of Zasu Pitts who oh-deared to movie fame by wringing her hands in anxiety, and of Jane Wyman who carried away an Oscar for having delivered the Lord's Prayer in hand-sign language. One also recalls that Victor Perry, the world's most famous pickpocket, was born December 19, 1919.

Betsy Ross, the gal whose fingers are immortalized in Americana because they sewed together our first national flag (and what is more Sagittarian than a nationalistic banner?) was also a daughter of this constellation. Handiest handyman of them all appears to be Sir Isaac Pitman, inventor of the modern shorthand system, given birth January 4, 1813. Maybe the excess of orchestra conductors' births under sidereal Sagittarius is also more than coincidental. Andre Kostelanetz, Vincent Lopez, Xavier Cugat, Alexander Smallens, Artur Rodzinski, Hans Kindler, Arthur Fiedler, Fritz Reiner, not to overlook Spade Cooley and Cab Calloway at denser levels, are musical baton wielders of note whose natal Suns occupy the starfield which astrology's originators connected with the hands and arms.

Astrology's symbology is usually far more literal than people steeped in modern metaphysicked astrology probably realize. We doubt that it is just a coincidence that the chief heroic figure in American history who is never thought of apart from his horse is Paul Revere, native of sidereal Sagittarius. And Tom Mix, archetype of all the cinematic cowboys since, was born January 6th.

For the idea that hands and arms smack of traditional Sagittarian motifs there is a pretty good case in the sociological appraisal of these body members. Apart from their unavoidable use as work tools and communicative devices, hand have been institutionalized by human psychology into something quite distinct from their natural function. Consider the fact that handshaking and hand salutes, benedictory and ritual gestures, and the use of these limbs for jewelry display, are far more Jupiterian than Mercurian in origin and implication – quite different from the ideas of dexterity, nimbleness, nervousness and other essentially Mercurian keywords.

In the biological ascent of man, the development of the thumb made possible what we call civilization. Jupiter is the planet of caste and rite, of etiquette and conventionality, reminding us, among numerous other things, that to have uncalloused hands was one's death warrant during the French and Bolshevik revolutions. Even in antisnobbery America, the degree of opulence is usually correlative with the teacup-holding manner and what baubles are worn, rings primarily broad-casting social, marital and fraternal status. Hand movements are so germane to religious practice, not only at the altar and in the pews but in prayer generally, one has to conclude that Jupiter does express itself through the hands more strikingly than through any other part of the anatomy. There is little doubt but what the earliest astrologers assigned the arms and hands to Sagittarius, and we still see these members featured in the traditional figure of the celestial Archer. For the occult-minded, it is worth mentioning that the number 5, being the number of the hand because of its digits and the 5th arcanum of the Tarot are sacred to Jupiter.

[Jim Eshelman]

(from "Your Powwow Corner," American Astrology 2/63)

In another topical area, though this also has political overtones, we note with interest the birthdate of Monsignor Jose Escriva, founder and general president of the Opus Dei movement which is gradually engulfing all governmental and educational echelons in Spain today. The Opus Dei, a layman's semisecret religious organization reminiscent of birchdom in our own country, aims for complete domination of church-state relations and is the mainspring of the monarchist campaign which seeks to restore the Spanish throne.

Ponder the Monsignor's birthdate, January 9, 1902, in the light of his lifelong dream and historical role. A sidereal Sagittarian to the hilt to be sure. His visionary effort to reinstate the aristocracy topped by a royal family with all the plush trappings is so Jupiterian a goal that the appropriateness of Sagittarius over Capricorn in this cannot be argued. Note that both the Sun and Moon are in the constellation Sagittarius, the royalist sector of the zodiac. Yes the tropical ephemeris makes him a double Capricornian. Never mind; there are so many of these Jupiterian types born under tropical Capricorn that most modern texts have hybridized the classical Sea-Goat into a Mountain Goat, and transposed Midheaven meanings to the tenth sign, in order to make sense out of the conspicuous numbers of status climbers and peerage boosters born in the traditionally no-frills bailiwick of the planet Saturn.

[Jim Eshelman]

Aerospace Age
(by Garth Allen, "Many Things," American Astrology 5/70;
dated December 27, 1969, New York, NY)

The aerospace age was born at Kittyhawk, 36N04, 75W42, when the Wright brothers' craft lifted into the air under its own power, at 10:37 A.M. EST on December 17, 1903. It would be interesting to see if the inception chart for powered flight had prophetic application to milestones in space travel as well as aviation in the atmosphere. At the moment, however, I am more intrigued by the remarkable tie-ins between the Kittyhawk map and those of the leading astronauts. Both tropical and sidereal advocates agree that aviation is closely associated with Sagittarius whose venerable symbol is the arrow, the aerodynamic missile, the upward-aimed projectile.

Through cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin's birth hour is unknown, standard noon on his birthdate, March 9, 1934, at 54N46, 32E03, has the Moon at 5°22' Sagittarius sidereally. It is quite fitting that the first human being in space should have a Sagittarian natal Moon inasmuch as the Sun was 1°08' Sagittarius during the Kittyhawk event.

That this is no mere coincidence is shown by the fact that the natal Moons of Charles A Lindbergh, John H. Glenn and Neil Armstrong are all also in sidereal Sagittarius! Lindbergh was born February 4, 1902, 2:30 A.M. CST, 42N20, 83W03. Astronaut Glenn was born July 18, 1921, his mother's time - 4:30 P.M. EST, 39N51, 81W35. Armstrong was born August 5, 1930, 12:31 A.M. CST, 40N33, 84W23. Let us dodge the enlightening fact that the 9th houses of these men are uniformly inactive or unimportant by any standard criteria and, instead, ponder the numerous similarities between the key points in their charts.

Kittyhawk Sun 1°08' Sag, Moon 16°51' Sco, Asc 25°43' Cap
Lindbergh Sun 21°14' Cap, Moon 2°31 Sag, Asc 15°14 Sco
Glenn Sun 2°01' Can, Moon 19°48' Sag, Asc 15°34' Sco
Armstrong Sun 18°20' Can, Moon 2°09' Sag, Asc 25°07' Tau

The repetition of the quadruplicities is certainly striking; our three greatest aerospace heroes have cardinal Suns, common (all Sagittarius) Moons, and fixed Ascendants. If one remembers that the galactic center lies at 2°20' Sagittarius, with the Aldebaran-Antares longitudinal axis lying across 15° Taurus-Scorpio, the uniqueness of these historically significant horoscopes is even more emphasized. These positions are of course sidereal, but their corresponding sequences in the tropical frame of reference break down, which seems to be par for the course.

[Jim Eshelman]

Telling the Other Side
(by Garth Allen, American Astrology 5/63)

In a friendly, spirited way the lady was voicing an objection to some of the things we said recently about the planet Saturn. "Since I feel that everything I am or ever will be I owe to Saturn," she wrote, "I must protest." Right off the bat, it struck us, that the very word chosen in connection in Saturn was owe. People seem to thank the other planets for their blessings when showing enthusiasm or appreciation. But when something good exudes from Saturn in their lives, they owe Saturn for it.

She goes on to say, "I was born December 25, 1930 at 7:15 A.M., in 35N13, 93W09, which gives me 0°57' Capricorn on the Ascendant, Saturn at 12° and Mercury at 21°, also Sun at 2°57' Capricorn. I also would like to mention that my Saturn squares Uranus at 11° Aries and opposes Jupiter and Pluto in Cancer.

"Perhaps being only an amateur astrologer I have missed something that offsets these aspects but I feel the only way I have accomplished anything in life was through my Saturn stability and determination. I am often down but never out. An adversity only gives me more courage.

"It is true that my education was limited but not considering this a handicap I became a model, went on to teach modeling and finally became the educational trainee instructor for a large manufacturing firm, traveling all over the United States....Please write a column telling the other side of Saturn. It can be the best friend in everyone's chart if they will respect its lessons and realize that no experience in life is bad if you learn something from it."

First of all by way of commentary, such luminous optimism is the classical earmark of Jupiter. Apparently our correspondent is not aware that she was writing to a siderealist astrologer who finds that not only her Sun and Ascendant are in the constellation of Sagittarius, but her natal Mercury and Saturn as well. In fact, in the sidereal zodiac, the constellation Capricorn was wholly vacant at her birth. Little wonder, then, such a typically Jupiter-sort of sweeping dictum, "no experience in life is bad if you learn something from it." Classically speaking, Sagittarius is the constellation of aspiration and "getting on" as our British chums put it. Even the age-old symbol for Sagittarius, the ascending, handicap-piercing arrow shaft, embodies this motif. And isn't Sagittarius the traditional sign of the instructor and the traveler?

For that matter, professional modeling is surely more easily ascribable to Sagittarius than to any other sector of the zodiac, especially if high fashion is involved. Observe how that artful advertising and modeling is virtually restricted in themes to wholly Jupiterian surroundings and backdrops - lush carpeting and draperies, period furniture, country verandas, pillars, scenic flights of stairs, limousines, racetrack cocktail lounges, plush hotel fronts, aristocratic paintings, and on and on. Where, pray tell, does Saturn impinge on this picture.?

Then again, our letter writer did miss out on something that would offset the badness of her planetary layout (if it were innately bad, which it clearly is not) and that is, she happens to have been born under one of the best, if not the very best, aspects possible. Mercury sextile Venus. In our personal opinion, this is the finest single aspect it is possible to have at birth. Sun trine and Moon opposition Neptune helps too, for these are aspects which tend to comeliness and personal appeal.

...what does Saturn-Uranus inherently mean? Determination, for one thing. The trait that enables you to say in all sincerity, "An adversity only gives me more courage," is surely what one would expect from a coupling of the planet of ingenuity and regeneration with the planets of difficulties and burdens. To sum up, one could say the lady's letter was but a "different version" of what her birthchart has to say. Most letters from people are like that, come to think of it, since everything we say and do and think is reflected in our natal horoscopes. The misunderstanding which sparked the letter in the first place arises from a confusion of zodiacs, as usual. The sidereal zodiac, to us at least, always solves any riddles that arise when it comes to an apparent contradiction between what chart seems to say and what is the actual observable fact.

[By Jove]

My Sag Mom has a very can-do attitude. She often says, "There is no room for pessimism." And I feel at times she doesn't understand all my psychological inhibitions.

Being a double Sag, I have some of that optimism, and I do truly believe I can do anything so long as I work hard enough. But I also have a very pessimistic side. I don't believe the future will improve much in politics, that things will first get worse before they get better. I am pessimistic about my ability to navigate the world socially, which sucks because even if a miracle happens and I am some kind of genius, I won't go anywhere. I have a lot of inertia, meaning it takes me a long time to get myself moving.

What can explain all this, considering I have a seven planet Sag stellium of all things?

[SteveS]

Jove wrote and asked:

I am pessimistic about my ability to navigate the world socially, which sucks because even if I am some musical or literary genius I won't go anywhere. I have a lot of inertia, meaning it takes me a long time to get myself moving.
What can explain all this, considering I have a seven planet Sag stellium of all things?

Hi Jove, whenever I see a prominent situation in a person's life which is not explained on the surface of a natal chart, I always go to an analysis of direct midpoints involving angles and/or lights. I note a direct midpoint in your natal of Sun/Saturn=Uranus. This reads out from Ebertin's COSI book:

Fluctuating attitude towards life, emotional tensions, sudden inhibitions, nervousness...

It is obvious by your natal chart your partile cnj of Mercury-Uranus is the aspect which offered you your creative genius---but you see---Sun/Saturn=your n. Mercury-Uranus. It is the Sun/Saturn midpoint which answers for me your above question. Hope this helps.

[Jim Eshelman]

The simplest explanation is: It's the afflicted, emphasized Neptune. Your Moon conjoins Neptune very closely, and they are both closely sesqui-square your strong, angular Mars. Moon-Neptune often produces much of what you describe by itself, and the burden is a bit harder from it being specifically an afflicted Neptune. It brings out an unhappy side of the Sagittarius theme.

Mercury and Venus conjoin Neptune also (more widely), though they conjoin Uranus much more closely.

Besides all your Sagittarius, you also have Sun sesqui-square Jupiter. This is your only solar aspect, and is quite positive! In fact, we can say that your Sun is a much more positive planet than your Moon, and solar matters are likely to do just fine in the world.

I'd tell you to be optimistic about that part of the picture, but that would be contrary to the Moon0-Neptune

Here are some isolated interpretation summaries to think about (and give feedback on, if you wish):

MOON IN SAGITTARIUS
Higher & higher (ambition, spiritual aspiration, flight). Optimism (adapting with positivism). Courteous, gracious, natural hosts. Seeks to impress (needs validation, approval). Devoted to ideals & values (political; nationalistic, tribal; loves history). Dramatic (actors). Mercenary. Strong family ties.

MOON CONJUNCTION NEPTUNE Orb 1°24' Separating
Sensitive – often too much! Tunes into others on an emotional (psychic?) level: can be deeply understanding, genuinely sympathetic, but also emotionally (psychically) vulnerable, easily wounded, with abiding fears of rejection. Self-defense through avoidance (non-confrontation) & slamming shut senses & good sense. When wounded, withdraws & introverts (often with excessive rumination, imagination working overtime, worry, moodiness). Drawn to the imaginative, surrealistic, and creative. Genius, if present, coexists with deeply, visibly disturbed character.

SUN IN SAGITTARIUS
Social elitism, aristocracy. Excellence, quality. Higher & higher, ambition, travel. Judges self & others, may fail own standards. Right-wrong, reward-punishment, belief- & values-driven. Respects continuity of culture & social rituals. Preserves status quo, heritage, myth when possible. Loyal to tribe. Complacent affection.

MERCURY IN SAGITTARIUS
Easy speech seems cultured, educated, authoritative, refined. Way with words, oratorical. Optimistic. Good-tempered, tactful, quiet (stubborn). Conscious of the architecture of thought & language. Does well in business world, commercially ambitious. Traveling.

MERCURY CONJUNCTION VENUS Orb 0°16' Applying
Gracious expression, charmer, persuasive, maybe even a “sweet talker.” Light-hearted, pleasant. Delights in learning (learns easily). Probably a happy childhood; retains a playful, childlike sense, a charm of immaturity.

MERCURY CONJUNCTION URANUS Orb 0°26' Separating
Independent thinker. Curiosity and investigative spirit in most things. Mind unfettered by formality and standards, solves problems and integrates data more intuitively. Rejects linearity, lacks rigor in learning. Many interests, diverse, often unusual (including astrology or occultism). Speech engages others’ attention, usually has something interesting to say; challenges convention or authority, dares to speak despite consequences. Gentle rebellious behavior (“bad boy/girl”) seems rooted in, “Don’t tell me how to think.” Socially odd, but not ostracized for it.

VENUS IN SAGITTARIUS
Idealist; committed to vision of world as they feel it should be. Values friendship (sees it as ennobling, honoring). Expects reliable friends (returns the same). Great need to be liked, accepted (nearly always is) & to bring value to a friendship. Warm, sociable, welcoming. Loves fun. Zealous & generous lovers. Needs affection openly declared: dislikes guessing.

VENUS CONJUNCTION URANUS Orb 0°42' Applying
Pleasure drives are free of social convention or taboo, allowing enjoyment from a wide variety of social and sexual experiences. They approach friendship, love, sex, and other pleasure on their own terms, with a deep instinct for flexibility and freedom from artificial constraint. Socially popular, friendly, engaging, and well-liked, in response to their lightly flirtatious, genial, roguish style. (Underlying innocence and vulnerability is often masked by their social “character.”) Often requires distance from intimacy or depersonalizes affection, which can strain conventional pairings. Usually optimistic for society’s future with a deep instinct toward a less Puritanical, more open social fabric.

MARS IN TAURUS
Artists, musicians. Tender, responsive, humane. Mystic instincts attuned to love. Sexually attractive, romantic soul, sensual (sexually popular?). Women often tough, competitive, comfortable with assertiveness. Men often second-guess themselves, perhaps a little lost, ambivalent about aggression.

MARS SESQUISQUARE NEPTUNE Orb 0°23' Applying
Thrives amidst stirred passion & drama. Supercharged imagination. Surges into temptation; impatient with frustrated gratification; requires rapid conformity of reality to wants (usually gets it). Zealous enthusiasms. Dramatic aggressions; anger patterns triggered by frustration. Sexually magnetic (yet sexual demons & doubts). Great stamina for long-term vision.

[By Jove]

So it's Mars quincunx Moon and Neptune. Neptune gets a strong aspect from the Moon (become "dominant"), and then that amplified Neptune is afflicted by Mars (a malefic) through a quincunx (a "bad" aspect that apparently implies problems buried beneath the surface).

If you look at the charts of my family members (in another thread), my mom has the most Moon aspects while my sister has the most Neptune aspects. My mom and dad both have mental problems, which they passed on to their children. My adopted father seems okay though, but he's a therapist, grew up very poor, and lived with a hardly idea family, so something must be wrong with him!

[Jim Eshelman]

So it's Mars quincunx Moon and Neptune.

Not quincunx (150°). Sesqui-square (135°). (A quincunx would be worthless.)

And I'd rather say it's Moon-Neptune (which is then afflicted). Moon-Mars and Mars-Neptune wouldn't produce what you describe on their own, but Moon-Neptune often would; and, as a "bonus" (ha!), Moon-Neptune gets the Mars.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Quincunx is shown on astro.com with this symbol: ⊼ That's a /\ with a bar over the top if my symbols aren't coming through.
Semi-sextile is ⊻, or \/ with a bar under it.

One way to remember this is the quincunx can't hold water - if you tried to pour water into the symbol, it wouldn't work. So quincunx don't hold water, either symbolically or as aspects.

[By Jove]

*sighs* I'll have to redo a bit of the family natal charts. What makes a quincunx so worthless anyway?

[Jim Eshelman]

It's called "inconjunct" for a reason: it mens "no aspect."

[By Jove]

Then why even make a "not conjunct" aspect at all? smh

I corrected my natal chart interpretations, taking out all quincunx aspects and adding in sesquisquare aspects. Feel free to comment. http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1883

[Jim Eshelman]

Then why even make a "not conjunct" aspect at all? smh

That's kinda the point. Ptolemy talked about the signs that were opposite, square, trine, and sextile a sign, then separately mentioned the signs that were "not aspecting" it - the fifth signs from a given sign, and those adjacent. Some astrologers in modern times started thinking he meant to define an aspect, when he was really not defining an aspect: He was saying where there isn't one.

If the orb is tight enough - say, half a degree - then one might say there's an aspect because all multiples of 10° become conjunctions ,oppositions, or squares in the Navamsa/Novien. This sometimes gives an impression that there is a valid quincunx aspect, but it's no more so than, say, a 140° or 160° aspect.

[Soft Alpaca]

Alright lets cut through my chart then. With the Sun in Saggitarius as the second most angular planet and Jupiter in Aries as the first most angular planet, the relationship between them forms a domicile exaltation relationship. The Moon in Leo also adds to the Saggitarius Sun. However the terms used in Saggitarius Sun just don't pin point who I am, my life has more reflected Saturn to be honest, having to raise kids at an early age, lacking male role models or having abusive overbearing ones when I had them. I've actually been rejected from elite groups many times in my life, and honestly the ones I fought my way into (out of spite) were really all just underwhelming. The only thing I Can think of is Mars being unhinged from the Sun as it is in exaltation (and I can't see Saggitarius having any influence over the sign of Capricorn in my chart either) also the planets ruled by Mars acting under his tool set not the Sun.

(Mars would have Pluto,Venus,Mercury in Scorpio and Uranus,Neptune, SN in Capricorn) and (the Sun would have the Moon in Leo, Jupiter in Aries, NN in cancer) (Saturn in Aries disputed but leaning toward Mars).

I understand ,Jim, saying that we could become the things we hate, but it's not like I hate Saggitarius traits I just don't value some/many of them. It's like apathy with a slight distaste for elitism, as elitists have screwed me over one two many times. I've never had an inclination to law or order, however I have had it toward lawlessness and disorder. I like things messy and uninhibited, my arctype primarily is of the rebel and it describes me fairly well. I often lose things, I have mood swings, and dark places in my mind. Eventough I can appear positive I have a very cynical pessimistic overrealistic view on many things.

I do have inclination toward travel and culture espicaly finding culture that is lost, I've also studied many religion and the different sects of things i find interesting. (Including astrology). However these are fun things not key to who I am.

[I wouldn't say I owe any body anything. If i had to pick a planet/s to pay homage to it would Probably be toward Mars and Pluto. I do pay homage to Pluto in real life, I put it in paintings and drawings, write about it, and wear a Pluto necklace. For Mars the homage I pay is more subtle and is rather not disclose that information. Scorpio is the sign most often associated with me and Pluto being in Scorpio with Mars in exaltion could explain why my friends and family may associate this sign with me]

Maybe im just not understanding Jupiter and Saggitarius I understand expansion and I like expansion as it gives me more space to run around, but I don't want to rule the space in which I run around in although people may think I do I blame this on my Leo Moon. (I think my Leo moon is a facade but then where do i find my actually emotions in my chart...) I see Saggitarius as shallow and I can appear shallow but its to protect my privacy not because I am shallow.

Thinking about something you said to me about the chart and how the Sun is the carpenter and the other planets are the tools, is like to offer we are the carpenter, certain planets like the Sun or Mars or other dominant planets are the tools boxes and the other planets are the tools in those boxes...

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Alright lets cut through my chart then. With the Sun in Saggitarius as the second most angular planet and Jupiter in Aries as the first most angular planet, the relationship between them forms a domicile exaltation relationship.

(Italics mine.) That's horary (spit). Unless you were born to answer a question, it's just a confusion.

Scarlet, you have gone over and over how much you don't see yourself in the single paragraph that describes your Sun Constellation. Where, in your chart, do you see a reflection of yourself? There must be something, or you wouldn't be here.

[Soft Alpaca]

In the traveling and ethnicity part of Saggitarius I'm very much there. I use confidence as a facade as per my Leo moon. I have a tendency to keep myself private as per Mars in Capricorn. What I'm saying really is that I don't value my Sun sign as much as say my Mars sign or my Mercury sign. I'm also saying that maybe I don't understand my Sun sign or I'm not grasping it in full. Mercury in Scorpio seeks freedom of the mind we don't like be limited to a certain way of thinking ie the Sun as the most important planet in a chart. Pluto in Scorpio aims to space itself away from society it's the leave me alone planet and in the sign that naturally wants room to breath, making me and my generation detach from things like our Sun signs. Venus in Scorpio is the aesthetic of the sign the way I dress and the things I love are of the nature of the violent yet alluring sign. Clearly I care enough to explain this so I must be seeking some recognition of my way of thinking which is of the nature of my Leo moon.

But the lack of depth from my luminaries and the failure to explain why I do what I do rather that just saying some of what I do is what I'm searching for in my own chart. I don't see my Sun and Moon signs as much as the signs with a collection of planets/bodies in my chart. What would explain this? I'm here to question the integrity of everything to a controversy because I thrive of it.

[Jim Eshelman]

Alright lets cut through my chart then. With the Sun in Saggitarius as the second most angular planet and Jupiter in Aries as the first most angular planet, the relationship between them forms a domicile exaltation relationship.

A WTFyousay? LOL, that's not astrology. That's an example of the kind of stuff that has led Tropical astrology into the sewer and flushed astrology's reputation down the toilet.

Everything else (when you take this back to your natal chart, as we all should) has been discussed over and over in different threads. I'll come back later and delete this segment of posts to clean up the current thread, but I'll let it play out here a bit first.

Maybe im just not understanding Jupiter and Saggitarius I understand expansion and I like expansion as it gives me more space to run around

Careful distinction: Jupiter is growth by accretion (as if by eating), by taking things into ourselves (food, learning). Inflation is Neptune. More space, more room is Uranus or, sometimes, Mars.

The core essence of Jupiter is "higher, better," not "bigger" (if one must reduce it this much). Of the five main categories of identified needs in the human psyche (which map really well to the five classic non-luminary planets), Jupiter corresponds to what psychologists have labelled "ambition needs" (that's just a label, not necessarily the best), which includes the need for achievement, recognition, exhibition, and esteem. Note that these all have to do with other people's assessment (judgement) of you. As Garth Allen wrote in his Kid Gloves article on Jupiter (well-recommended BTW) - emphasis added:

Esteem is the sole province of Jupiter and, as we bear in mind that Jupiter is eternally significant of the others in human thinking, we can understand why psychologists insist that the usual basis of self-respect is actually the respect accorded by one’s neighbors. Bear this in mind always: Jupiter in a horoscope can never be interpreted accurately unless this fundamental element of other-ness, comparison and relationship is the main factor taken into account.

(I think my Leo moon is a facade but then where do i find my actually emotions in my chart...)

Did you miss my response the last time we went over this turf? Yes, that's exactly what the Moon is for all of us. It's a façade. In brief words, Sun is the core of what we fundamentally are at our inmost, distinguished identity, and Moon is the adaptive mechanism that protects, shields, covers, hides, yet also supports and furthers that deep identity. BTW, this doesn't mean Moon is fake - it's quite real for what it is (one might as well say that one's thoughts are fake because they're just epiphenomenology of identity, too).

"Where do I find my actual emotions..." What does actual mean here. And by "emotions" do you mean "reactions," "feelings," or something else. Much of this is indeed Moon, especially if it's adaptive-reactive. "Feelings" (or, at least, our ability to receive an impression and respond) is Venus. But I almost wonder (from your use here) if, instead of "where do I find my actual emotions," you mean, "where do I find what's true and actual about myself" - and most of that will not be what people usually designate feelings! "Actual emotions" is almost an oxymoron (except in the sense that all experience is real), because the nature of feelings is responsive, adaptive, etc.

I see Saggitarius as shallow and I can appear shallow but its to protect my privacy not because I am shallow.

I'll be deleting all of this, but back in your original thread discussing your chart, this might be something to bring up: What exactly feels shallow to you about Sagittarius? I couldn't begin to respond to this without knowing what you actually mean by that.

[Soft Alpaca]

Ok Jim. Thanks will do, sorry about posting excess stuff in here.

[Jim Eshelman]

Ok Jim. Thanks will do, sorry about posting excess stuff in here.

No problem, really. I just wanted to be clear about why some posts will disappear.

Here are some of my thoughts about how to make this forum make sense to all of us (including new people wandering in). These aren't rules, exactly; more like trying to draw you into a common vision.

Ultimately, I want the forum to be a permanent reference site, where people can come and directly look up stuff; and also a place for free and easy discussion. Balancing these two is sometimes a challenge. I draw firmer lines between the "Interpretations" vs. "Discussion" sections - but this present post is, indeed, in a discussion section. Should be open for discussion, right? The thing is, this thread is kinda "in between." It's not official interpretation material, but it does include "source material" from one of Sidereal astrology's founders, so I think of it more in the "reference material" area.

In a similar "make this place easy to consult" sense, I like to hold a given thread to a given topic (knowing that a bit of "topic wandering" is natural to discussion, and can enrich a thread, so one can't be fascist about this), and I move threads around from one forum to another so people are more likely to know where to go look for something on that subject.

There's another reason to take this back to the original thread on your horoscope: If a conversation about your chart is scattered in a dozen places, few people will be able to follow the conversation. Every time there's a new post, it's like starting all over - no way to put it into context of all the conversation. Things get lost (including readers feeling lost!). Again acknowledging that a bit of "wandering" is natural and even helpful at times, there is also value in keeping related things all in place.

It's not perfect, but I keep trying to make it a bit better.

[Soft Alpaca]

I'm glad someone deletes my posts Jim, I'm scattered and I need some help containing my hit mess sometimes so I thank you for that, I know it's a tough job.

[Veronica]

Mercury sextile Venus. In our personal opinion, this is the finest single aspect it is possible to have at birth.

why is that? or where can I find more information about that aspect. I have some archetypal imagery Im thinking about, but would really like any other info.

[Jim Eshelman]

Mercury sextile Venus. In our personal opinion, this is the finest single aspect it is possible to have at birth.

why is that? or where can I find more information about that aspect. I have some archetypal imagery Im thinking about, but would really like any other info.

I think he probably saw it much the same as other astrologers he knew and trusted saw it. If you read about Mercury sextile Venus in books like LG's A to Z or Carter's Astrological Aspects, you'll see it has a splendid aspect.

The general expectation of Mercury-Venus combinations is: Gracious charmer, persuasive, sweet talker. Light-hearted, pleasant. Pleasure in learning. Probably a happy childhood; retains a playful, childlike sense, a charm of immaturity.

Make it a sextile and it is softer, less pushy, easy-going, etc.