In What Way is Pluto Not a Malefic?

[sotonye]

Whether in transits or in the Natal, Pluto functions to disrupt the order of things in a way that eventually ends in separation from other people; there is no transit to Pluto that is not conflictual, no transit by Pluto that is not separative, inconsiderate, rebellious, and no Natal configuration involving Pluto that is not socially stunted and cantankerous. Garth Allen calls Pluto the sponsor of miracles, of one in a million odds, but most of us will never experience this side of this unusual and distant planet or any side that we could sensibly consider positive or even neutral, which makes me think the neutral designation might not be the best fit! In what way is Pluto not like a Malefic?

[sotonye]

I have a hard time seeing how the sponsor of separation isn’t outstandingly negative, I mean having a strong natal Pluto has always sucked a bit, I’ve always been apart from others since I was small and it always will be that way, it doesn’t make me happy or sad one way or the other but fundamentally it isn’t very good

[SteveS]

Pluto is the sponsor of 'stunning' and 'shocking' events/incidents, and as you pointed out, most of the time it will act in malefic ways. But I know this: when Pluto partile transited my rising natal Jupiter I banked the most $ I ever obtained in my entire life by selling my business. It allowed me to meagerly retire in comfort with a simple boring life! I don't have time to write out all the details--but all of my close friends told me I pulled-off a miracle, because normally the competition to my business would have buried me with financial ruin. I pulled off the biggest business bluff in my entire life.

[sotonye]

Pluto is the sponsor of 'stunning' and 'shocking' events/incidents, and as you pointed out, most of the time it will act in malefic ways. But I know this: when Pluto partile transited my rising natal Jupiter I banked the most $ I ever obtained in my entire life by selling my business. It allowed me to meagerly retire in comfort with a simple boring life! I don't have time to write out all the details--but all of my close friends told me I pulled-off a miracle, because normally the competition to my business would have buried me with financial ruin. I pulled off the biggest business bluff in my entire life.

Hey Steve, this is extremely positive, you experienced the miraculous side mentioned by Garth Allen, but if this sort of thing only happens once in a life time, and at any other time Pluto operates in malefic fashion, can’t we call it a Malefic?

[Jim Eshelman]

Your examples are primarily about the transiting effect, but let's start with what's most important: Pluto as a factor in the natal chart. Pluto is at least a neutral planet in that regard - resembling benefics only in the antisocial sense but more inclined to kindly than unkindly behavior. (Pluto angular alone tends to be gentle; with benefics it tends to be gentle with malefics it tends to be harsh. That's neutral-to-benefic overall.)

At root, Pluto represents the need for authenticity. It's seemingly antisocial characteristics arise from the fact that most social patterning in our culture is inauthentic {bs}. Pluto is quite at odds with that.

But there is nothing in Pluto that wants to cause harm, as there is in the malefics.

By transit, it's a similar thing: Pluto purges {bs}. This is a neutral-to-positive thing. It clears inauthenticities.

Whether in transits or in the Natal, Pluto functions to disrupt the order of things in a way that eventually ends in separation from other people

Not invariably separative. Pluto to Venus can be elopement as easily as divorce. Pluto to Jupiter can exalt the lowly to unexpected greatness just as much as it can drag the lofty into the gutter. Pluto to Sun reinvents one's life by disclosing new authentic truths about oneself that often lead to one switching lines and heading down a new road.

It's disruptive and separative in the sense that it never leaves one's life unchanged. One would have to hold that stability and predictability are inherently good if one wished to call this reinvention "malefic," which I think would be a hard case to make.

there is no transit to Pluto that is not conflictual

Conflict? I'm not at all sure that's true. There's a great deal from Pluto that isn't conflictual and, when conflict occurs, it's usually because somebody else has a problem with the new direction Pluto is taking us.

Pluto to Sun is self-definition - leaving behind what one has been to step into what one will be next. Pluto to Moon is primarily purgative of old patterns and often rewrites one's emotional life (though, yes, often there are trembles and echoes in the environment when this happens, but not always - quite often it results in a clarified psychological health). Pluto to Mercury remaps the way your mind is organized and how you think. Pluto to Venus either opens widely new relationship doors, slams old ones behind us, or both. Pluto to Mars can be rough - it's Mars! - but has some great positive benefits also. And so on.

no transit by Pluto that is not separative, inconsiderate, rebellious

Separative, yes. I can see why that would appear malefic to someone with such a social-driven chart as yours Rebellious is fair, but, again, why is that a negative? Pluto only rebels against inauthenticities {bs}. Inconsiderate? It certainly can seem that since it does tend to place attention back on oneself as a first priority, though Pluto is not intrinsically inconsiderate.

and no Natal configuration involving Pluto that is not socially stunted and cantankerous.

Cantankerous is in the eye of the beholder - again, Pluto rightly rejects others' expectations, judgments, etc. But with "socially stunted" I disagree entirely. Yet I can see why a Jupiter-driven person (especially a Moon-Jupiter-Venus driven person) would see it that way. You do seem to have a judgement that social graciousness is an outright virtue. There are many socially mature people who would disagree with that. The single most Plutonian person I know well is also an exemplar of kindness, though of course the place where she periodically {nasses} people off is that she won't go along with something for the sake of going along with it, She makes independent decisions about most things and speaks her mind plainly.

Garth Allen calls Pluto the sponsor of miracles, of one in a million odds, but most of us will never experience this side of this unusual and distant planet or any side that we could sensibly consider positive or even neutral

BTW, "miracle" doesn't necessarily mean a good thing. The word means "wonder" - a "wonder to behold" - and ultimately means something so far outside the odds that it seems unlikely to occur. However, under Pluto it occurs.

which makes me think the neutral designation might not be the best fit! In what way is Pluto not like a Malefic?

In what way is being uncompromisingly true to one's authentic nature inherently malefic? At root (and operating at its best, without external interference), that's all that Pluto is about.

PS - Since I mentioned your predominantly social-driven nature a few times, I should mention that my two closest aspects are a 17' conjunction of Uranus with one benefic and a 13' square of Pluto with another benefic. I innately regard change, transformation, shifting ground etc. as the highest good things. I've also lived two-thirds of my life where Pluto is year after year on a Solar Return angle. I've easily identified with the Biblical maxim to "die daily." I can't imagine surviving a life of persistent sameness. This surely affects my more positive relation to Uranus and Pluto. I think there is no virtue higher than trueness to one's innate self, and my lifelong investment in astrology has been for the specific purpose of creating tools for people to understand the dynamics moving in them and shaping them.

[Soft Alpaca]

I've always seen Pluto as purely unbiased. Like a light switch (now what turns it on or off is a mystery to me). Pluto can give great power or take all power away, it is not biased at all in this process.

I have a hard Pluto-Moon aspect, it in no way even compares in nature to my trine Saturn-Moon. As a comparison my Saturn-Moon (plus my Mars sign) tend to bring out a raw, wild, dark nature [mainly sexual/mental] especially when they are illuminated or made a angular in transits. These are the malefic traits one would associate with Saturn/Mars.
Pluto on the other hand in my case molds the moon to its own nature. Some days I'm very moody going from 1 to 100 in seconds, these days are also days where I tend to feel everyone's emotions as well as have a very strong "psychic sense", ie omens, dreams etc. are very vivid. Other days I dont feel a thing, and I become morally ambiguous. I've meet other Pluto-Moons both online and in real life who go through the same thing, however each person has their own preference to which side of this coin they prefer.

[Lance]

Great question.

Great thread.

I was developing the same bias due to all the separation.

[Algebra Sun]

I wonder if Pluto can be about losing money. Can Pluto be about intelligent desires? Can it be about gambling? Can it be about engineering?

Can Pluto be too deep? Does Pluto in the chart make people serious?

Etc. Lots of questions to ask. I wonder if Pluto enhances engineering skills.

Has Pluto been researched?

I wonder

[Soft Alpaca]

Ok ok, up until engineering?? Where in the heck did that come from...

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

You're thinking in concrete "thingish" nouns.

Planets are verbs.
Pluto is separating. Singling out.

Hey, go here. Download (don't try to read it on that site) the booklet. It's called Taking the Kid Gloves off Astrology and it's by Garth Allen (aka Donald Bradley.) His keyword for Pluto is "genesis." Bradley is right up there with Fagan and this will really open your eyes. Worth re-reading every couple of years too.

[Jim Eshelman]

I wonder if Pluto can be about losing money. Can Pluto be about intelligent desires? Can it be about gambling? Can it be about engineering?

Can Pluto be too deep? Does Pluto in the chart make people serious?

Etc. Lots of questions to ask. I wonder if Pluto enhances engineering skills.

Has Pluto been researched?

Pluto has been massively researched over the last 90 years and, yes, we do understand it quite well.

While any planet may be involved in any activity depending on the underlying psychological motives and conditions for that person at that time, in general I can answer:

Pluto is not about losing money per se, though transiting Pluto dramatically rearranges life conditions and significant, drastic, life-altering loss of money could be one of thousands of possibilities.

I don't know if Pluto can be "too deep." Can anything be "too deep"? I think of deep as desirable in the sense that the word "too" never applies psychologically (though I suppose it could apply to ill-constructed diving crafts or overly ambitious physical insertions - but neither of these events tends to be a Pluto event).

A strong natal Pluto sometimes could pass for "serious," because Pluto people lean toward less interactivity than most others. Sometimes, for example, a strong Pluto can be confused for a strong Saturn.

There is no intrinsic connection of Pluto to gambling or engineering per se.

Whilew Pluto has been extensively researched, your post makes we curious whether you have done your own homework on what has been learned. Here's a passage from Cyril Fagan you might want to check out:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29#p101

[James Condor]

My mother has Sun, Mercury, Venus and Mars in Aries. She isn’t pleasant at all. It’s too difficult to have a conversation with her. Close minded. She contradicts people allot and is usually insensitive. She purposely will belittle people. It’s kinda sad because none of my family really enjoys her company.
But I know a few other sun in Aries people I can talk with without them trying to argue all the time.
Brent has sun, Mercury and Venus in Aries and is like my mom and just argues all the time and doesn’t listen much and thinks he’s right all the time.

[Veronica]

My mother has Sun, Mercury, Venus and Mars in Aries. She isn’t pleasant at all. It’s too difficult to have a conversation with her. Close minded. She contradicts people allot and is usually insensitive. She purposely will belittle people. But I know a few other sun in Aries people I can talk with without them trying to argue all the time.

My mother had sun moon mercury mars and uranus in Aries and she was the exact opposite. Easy to talk too kind open friendly warm outgoing......weird

[James Condor]

That is weird. Makes me think this all {bs}. My mom has moon and Mars in Gemini. I don’t know her time of birth .

[Veronica]

That is weird. Makes me think this all {bs}. My mom has moon and Mars in Gemini. I don’t know her time of birth .

Weird too bc that made me think this is all NOT bs!!!it shows how subtle little things maje a whole world of difference!
My mom was born in London in 1934. Completely different backdrop and time.

[Arena]

You have to look into the aspects in their charts.
What are the closest planets to angles?
What are the aspects to their Mercury and luminaries?

[James Condor]

Yeah I know. She has sun-Mercury class 2, sun-Mars sesquisquare just under 2, maybe Sun-Moon. Maybe has moon-Mars conjunction I don’t know her time of birth.
This doesn’t explain why Veronicas mother is nothing like mine. They should be somewhat similar. My only guess is that ones environment turns on and off aspect like genes.

[Veronica]

Yeah I know. She has sun-Mercury class 2, sun-Mars sesquisquare just under 2, maybe Sun-Moon. Maybe has moon-Mars conjunction I don’t know her time of birth.
This doesn’t explain why Veronicas mother is nothing like mine. They should be somewhat similar. My only guess is that ones environment turns on and off aspect like genes.

Maybe its more of my synastry with her in that her chart on mine made me feel that way. I know my much older siblings did not have the positive communication/ease of speech with her.
People seem at ease to talk to me.

[Jim Eshelman]

You realize, of course, that we're discussing this in abstraction without charts for either one of them, right?

[Veronica]

April 22 1936 (I confused her year with my dad)
At home
London England

No recorded birthtime but her much older brother commented that it was right before the fishermen left because he had to dispose of the linens and such in the morning rubbish.
Probably between 3 and 4 am. It was very sudden and they had no time to get to the hospital.
I also realize this is a thread about Pluto:)

[Jim Eshelman]

My mother had sun moon mercury mars and uranus in Aries and she was the exact opposite. Easy to talk too kind open friendly warm outgoing......weird

Unfortunately, we don't have a time. That means we're not going to be able to solve this puzzle.

I would agree that a Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, and Uranus in Aries with a partile Mercury-Mars conjunction would not fit the above description (other than being pretty no-{bs} on communication and having strong commitment to family that might have shown through to her daughter).

But something like Venus exactly on an angle could stand all that on its head and give exactly the traits listed. We're not in a place to tell.

Synastry does have at least part of the story since Veronica's Venus is square her mom's Venus exactly. Mom's Jupiter on Veronica's Descendant. But the Aries Moon, Mercury, and Mars were on Veronica's Saturn, so it wasn't all peaches and cream - there were some red hot chili peppers in the interaction, I'm sure. (And a Mars-Saturn interchange.)

[Veronica]

Lol....red hot chili peppers for sure....she would get so mad at my messiness and tomboyish stuff sometimes as a child. She called me her "messy Pup".....as a teen we had some hotness for sure and my wildness did make me pull stunts that she got so worried and frustrated about.
You tend to forget that yucky stuff when they arnt around.
Id do anything to be able to have her hit me with a wooden spoon for putting frogs on her clean kitchen table.

[James Condor]

Yeah synastry or angles could explain allot. I’m not sure about the whole benefit, malific and neutral planet idea in that it seems relative to other planets involved. Also I can see each planet having pros and cons.

[Veronica]

Yeah synastry or angles could explain allot. I’m not sure about the whole benefit, malific and neutral planet idea in that it seems relative to other planets involved. Also I can see each planet having pros and cons.

Yeah synastry or angles could explain allot. I’m not sure about the whole benefit, malific and neutral planet idea in that it seems relative to other planets involved. Also I can see each planet having pros and cons.

As an optimistic person I have issues seeing things as "bad" . all things. I think everthing is a blessing or a blessing in disguise most all of the time, unless my emotions are under the influence.

Matter is just matter and it takes some kind of intelligence to assign value and organize chaos.

As I see it everything is neutral until I apply my perspective to it.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

I'm in the middle of my Pluto return, and it's been the most rewarding, meaningful, authentic, positively transformational time of my life

[James Condor]

See, I said it depends and is relative and we have the original poster S, saying it’s Malific, Jim saying it’s neutral, Veronica saying she’s optimistic but also neutral, and A saying it’s beneficial. So it’s confirmed that it depends.
To answer the original post is to show how Pluto is not negative and people have shown that. To show that Pluto is positive, people have shown that. To show it’s neutral is the form of Pluto but then depending on the situation it leans left or right. To reduce Pluto to it’s pure form or definition maybe very difficult to prove, but based on people’s experiences being both positive and negative, I’d say you can argue it’s neutral. BUT- will all the planets have mixed reviews depending on circumstances?

[Avshalom Binyamin]

I spoke positively, but I would say it's beyond good and evil