A natal analysis challenge

[Jim Eshelman]

The following came from the old site. It is a subset of a very long thread called "House Validity," that wandered many places. Near the end, a forum member challenged me to a blind chart reading, and I accepted. As you will see, she thought I did very poorly.

At the very least, it was a demonstration of how I would go about reading a chart. I think it was a fair test (one I accepted freely, knowing the limitations). Because it gives my blind interpretation and her subsequent description of the person and her life, the reader can judge the outcome, the strengths, the weaknesses, etc.

In moving this from the old forum, I give my interpretation, the subject's reply, and all other forum member assessments.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim wrote on another thread:

What Fagan gave me more than anything was crisp, clean, and accurate penetration into the chart by shedding so many things (but, above all else and at the top of the list, house disposition).

Are you willing to put this to the test, Jim? If I give you the birth data of someone I know well, could you produce a few sentences of "crisp, clear and accurate penetration into the chart..."? (Minus house disposition, of course.)

Sure, as time allows.

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm very interested, Jim, to see if you really can 'nail' a chart without knowing anything about the person. Here is the data of a female. I'll call her Lena. December 30, 1965, Pittsburgh, PA 12:48 p.m. (My family and long time friends all came from Pennsylvania before I moved to California.) Fagan-Bradley ascendant 2 Aries 36.

Lena is old enough, I think, for us to get a grasp of what her life is all about. I accidentally found her astro twin a while ago. Same birth date: (I didn't notice before that Lena and Heidi's Moons are in the same degree in Pisces.)

Heidi Lynne Fleiss
born on 30 December 1965 at 09:05 (= 09:05 AM )
Place Los Angeles, California, 34n03, 118w15
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Fleiss,_Heidi

American businesswoman, a chic and attractive brunette known as the notorious "Hollywood Madam." She was convicted 12/02/1994 on three counts of felony pandering for providing high priced call girls to undercover cops during their 1993 sting operation and given a sentence of three years prison. She was video-taped supplying prostitutes to agents posing as Japanese businessmen, boasting that she ran the most exclusive call-girl ring in town.

Let's see what two different ascendants (as the basis for the charts) say about these two women! It will be very interesting to compare their lives. I think we may learn something about houses.

Anyone else want to give this chart a try?

[Jim Eshelman]

Sure, I'm up for it. However (what I meant by time), I'm leaving town early in the morning for a few days - so I'll post the chart here so I can reference it while on the road. May have time to write something, at least I'll have it in front of me.

[chart lost on the old site]

As preliminary notes, here are the strongest factors in each category:

CONSTELLATIONS. Sun in Sagittarius, Moon in Pisces (Double Spoke). Mars exalted in Capricorn shouldn't be entirely overlooked. Altogether, Mars and Saturn are dignified, Jupiter and Uranus debilited.

ANGULARITY. Pluto is 3°30' below Descendant, and Moon 5°55' above Ascendant. This gives the most important aspect in the chart, the mundane Moon-Pluto opposition (2°25'). Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, and Saturn are background, though the Jupiter effect is certainly shifted by the Sagittarius emphasis.

ASPECTS. Besides the mundane Moon-Pluto opposition, the stand-out aspects are Mercury's exactly squares to Uranus-Pluto, and a partile Moon-Mars sextile.

That, as they say, is the aspectarian - the breakdown. I'll give some thoughtful remarks on the chart as a whole when I have some clear space to think it through. It's already clear to me that I would very much like how her mind works, and she's not a typical Sagittarius.

[Jim Eshelman]

(Quite a few days later...)

Still waiting (when time allows) for a few "crisp, clear and accurate" notes on Lena's chart, way back on page 2 now. I admit I can't do this because I can't tell from a blind chart what the soul and consciousness level of a person is.

Agh, totally forgot about that. (After returning to town Monday, I stepped right into 9 new attorneys starting plus several dozen contract attorneys also this week, and have barely looked up other than for a few sentences here and there.)

OK, I was originally waiting until I could do something more balanced and complete, but let me put down the first impressions I had, going from memory (not even looking at her chart at the moment).

The chart screams "explorer." (I'll rest on that as her single most outstanding theme.) I don't know whether that is physically true, or only metaphorically true - that depends on life conditions, means, etc., and (at least if she lived in birthplace for most of her growing up) the background Jupiter and Saturn make me think it more likely that she didn't feel she was given a lot of opportunity. (That's ambiguous in the chart, but I'll tip the judgment that way.) This is the chart of someone that, if she had the means, has spent much of her life physically exploring the world, reaching outside her original center even if careening back to it as a home base. If she didn't have the means for that, then she's been exploring intellectually, conceptually, ideologically, cracking codes, uncovering the covered, widening mental horizons.

This is mostly from the loud, vivid presence of the Sagittarius-Pisces luminaries with the close Mercury square to Uranus-Pluto.

But the other part of her that is huge is that rising Moon in close opposition (in mundo) to Pluto. This feeds the above - wanderlust, not wanting to be pinned down, constantly shifting environment and constantly adapting to high-impact circumstances. A moderately long essay could be written just on this one foreground aspect. I'll just mention two or three big themes here. (This gets less "crisp" because I find myself engaging much more in enjoying how the "dance of divergent characteristics" plays out.)

First, in a counseling session, I would spend a lot of time focusing on what superficially seems a conflict between the Sagittarius Sun and the Moon-Pluto. The former is about form, institution, tradition; the latter is about extricating oneself from arbitrary tradition, and this comes across most of the time as rebellious, antiauthoritarian, outside the box. Yet the angular Moon joins Sagittarius in being very connected to heritage. I think this is a pretty simple interpretation at core, but tough to pin down the details without conversing with the real person: There are more or less opposite, divergent qualities (mostly Jupiter vs. Pluto themes) that have to coexist in her and, by her living her life, they do coexist in her, and some of the most interesting part of her character is likely to be found in how she has let these war against each other or found resolution of them. That would be the interesting conversation.

Second, there are strong family themes. This is a variation of the heritage part above. Sagittarius needs her tribe, and this needn't end with original family, but it might. Against this, Moon-Pluto is the divergent one, the black sheep, the crazy cousin, the one that doesn't "behave." The thing is, while it may be her role in the family mix to be this character, heritage is also deeply, powerfully important to her, and Sagittarian themes are really important to her - she just needs to go deeper, to get them actually and authentically rather than accepting them like a peerage rule book. As part of the family issues, there is a strong (and probably ambivalent) relationship to the primary mother figure, and probably extending into other women in her life down the years - very likely a sharp, separative mother event that has significantly defined her.

Third, Moon-Pluto people's biographies are often marked by what seems like intense, fated circumstances - things that seem that in no way they, themselves, caused or originated. I don't think there is any such thing in life, and with Moon-Pluto the pattern - even in the most extreme cases - seems to be that their psyches need the sense that powerful, overwhelming, transformative things happened TO them, that they are the recipient of these things, reacting and responding to these things - and there is strong subconscious motivation both to set these overwhelming events in motion and (more often than not) to be "at effect" of them. I wonder about this in her particular case because, with everything else, the Pisces Moon certainly loves its drama and can get caught up in the drama of being a victim - so there may be a payoff in setting up something dramatic where she's the victim. If nothing that big and dramatic has marked the life, then I still stand by the basic character and motivational pattern I've outlined here.

Fourth, I'll just repeat my standard paragraph on Moon-Pluto: Bold & forthright, questioning & challenging, maverick & alien; independent, “marching to a different drummer,” resisting authority. Avoids habitual conformity (rebellious?); resists conventional conditioning and being made to concur with others’ values and codes. Restless, unwilling to be still for long, can uproot or take to the road on little notice. Deeply inquiring into existential mysteries, often igniting remarkable intuitive insights.

And, to finish these notes, I'll add that I'd stand by the basics in the Sun in Sagittarius and Moon in Pisces sections as filler, but haven't gone back to itemize them in detail.

I don't think I missed any major structure in the chart. I'll look in later and see what I might have missed. I meant to do a bit of planet-by-planet to flesh it out. But the above are the bullet points that jumped off the chart in the first few minutes of looking at it. (I think I made a remark earlier about being really taken with her mind. That's the Mercury pattern, in the context of the rest, that I mentioned above.)

[Jim Eshelman]

Looking at the chart now for some supplemental notes. These are not crisp - they're mostly notes toward conversations I'd have in mind to start with this women if she were my client.

SUN - The moderately orbed Moon-Sun square makes me think she was more likely to "take the bull by the horns" in her life than be a passive passenger. (This is true, I think, unless her life totally uprooted it early on, e.g., some sort of major abuse/suppression pattern. Mostly, I think it enhances the restlessness (and adds a charisma - might be mistaken for charm - that I didn't mention before).

MOON-MARS - A side of this that I didn't simply incorporate silently into the original remarks is the intense sexuality of Moon-Mars women (the aspect is partile), especially with a foreground Moon. I think, in her chart, this boils down to the usual intense sexual needs running at odds with "the rule book," then probably with Moon-Pluto stirring the "in trouble with the family or the rules" pattern - but this is hard to pin down without knowing more about the original family circumstances. I've mentioned the dynamics, I'm not sure what life-context they had to fit into.

MARS-URANUS is a moderate sesquisquare. This probably just adds to the rebelliousness, the tendency to "get into trouble" (in tension with the "follow protocol" Sagittarius). Mars is middleground and well-placed by sign, but probably works out mostly through that rising Moon.

JUPITER - Were it not for the Sagittarius Sun, I'd say Jupiter is completely left out of this chart. But you can't say that with a Sag. It's background, in detriment, with no close aspects at all. It's wider aspects are basically support opposition-square to the Mercury-Uranus (which probably needs no support). When a planet is this background, "left out," and disconnected, and yet its nature is so core to the character (e.g., Sun-sign ruler), we probably have some variation of a plaintive, "My basic nature is so-and-so, but it doesn't seem I have any opportunity to BE that, to experience that. How can I actualize what I am? What do I have to do to get a shot at being me?" (Or something like that. Playing with the dynamics here. The observable principles are: (1) Her Sun is in Sagittarius. (2) Jupiter has essentially no presence, no outlet, and no avenue of expression in her chart besides that.)

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim Eshelman wrote:

Agh, totally forgot about that. (After returning to town Monday, I stepped right into 9 new attorneys starting plus several dozen contract attorneys also this week, and have barely looked up other than for a few sentences here and there.)

This is your work, your day job?' Can you briefly explain? I have no idea of the work you do.

OK, I was originally waiting until I could do something more balanced and complete, but let me put down the first impressions I had, going from memory (not even looking at her chart at the moment).

Thank you very much for taking the time to write all this, Jim. I have copied it and emailed it to Lena for her comments. I also have two emails she sent me earlier about her own psychology, attitudes, etc. I have followed her life, so can comment later on her life pattern. I know her skills and how she has spent her life up to now. (She had given her permission to have her birth chart discussed on the forum.) I know her birth time is accurate as it was recorded at birth by her father, and the time matches the hour and minute on the birth certificate.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim Eshelman wrote:

Agh, totally forgot about that. (After returning to town Monday, I stepped right into 9 new attorneys starting plus several dozen contract attorneys also this week, and have barely looked up other than for a few sentences here and there.)

This is your work, your day job?' Can you briefly explain? I have no idea of the work you do.

I run the IT department for one office of one of the largest law firms in the world.

[Jim Eshelman]

I will comment further on Lena's chart later today, but here are her initial responses. I think her chart is a good example of the astrologer needing to know the soul history of a person before he or she can accurately judge a chart. Any astrologer cannot function or "see" above his own level of spiritual development.

One initial comment: Lena's Sun is the same degree as Tiger Woods' Sun, and she has the same ability to focus 100 percent on what she's doing with no interference from emotional issues which she lacks anyway. I've never known a person with such focus and detachment. I've always felt that long ago she was trained in the ancient spiritual temples. She doesn't operate on the same plane as the majority of human beings.

More later, including her own personality sketch. Her comments below:

Jim Eshelman wrote:

The chart screams "explorer."

No, not an explorer, but did live far from birthplace for 20 years in India. I am allergic to going out and about discovering and exploring different places. Once I get somewhere, I like to stay put in one little stable area. Going from home to necessary shopping to workplace and back is my only 'exploring'.

(I'll rest on that as her single most outstanding theme.) I don't know whether that is physically true, or only metaphorically true - that depends on life conditions, means, etc., and (at least if she lived in birthplace for most of her growing up) the background Jupiter and Saturn make me think it more likely that she didn't feel she was given a lot of opportunity.

For most of my life, for the most part I did whatever I wanted. Though, I would have had more comfort had there been better financial means.

This is the chart of someone that, if she had the means, has spent much of her life physically exploring the world, reaching outside her original center even if careening back to it as a home base. If she didn't have the means for that, then she's been exploring intellectually, conceptually, ideologically, cracking codes, uncovering the covered, widening mental horizons.

Not true. Most of life was spent controlling the mind mentally and being stable in one place physically, and wouldn't have wanted otherwise.

First, in a counseling session, I would spend a lot of time focusing on what superficially seems a conflict between the Sagittarius Sun and the Moon-Pluto. The former is about form, institution, tradition; the latter is about extricating oneself from arbitrary tradition, and this comes across most of the time as rebellious, antiauthoritarian, outside the box.

Could be true, I respect old fashioned values and tradition; at the same time, wouldn't want to be tied down within the constraints of traditional female roles of the past.

Yet the angular Moon joins Sagittarius in being very connected to heritage.

[Note from Therese: Lena is quite passionate about tracing ancestry, especially to please the elders in the relationship. She spent a great deal of time tracking down evidence that an ancestor came to the U.S. on the Mayflower. She has spent much time, energy and money on obtaining official papers, letters from those who can help, and so forth. This is how her Sag energy has played out. She has put together beautiful and detailed ancestry books.]

Second, there are strong family themes. This is a variation of the heritage part above. Sagittarius needs her tribe, and this needn't end with original family, but it might. Against this, Moon-Pluto is the divergent one, the black sheep, the crazy cousin, the one that doesn't "behave." The thing is, while it may be her role in the family mix to be this character, heritage is also deeply, powerfully important to her, and Sanitarian themes are really important to her - she just needs to go deeper, to get them actually and authentically rather than accepting them like a peerage rule book. As part of the family issues, there is a strong (and probably ambivalent) relationship to the primary mother figure, and probably extending into other women in her life down the years - very likely a sharp, separative mother event that has significantly defined her.

True in that I completely embraced the 'tribe' of groups of elderly, traditional village ladies in India, meanwhile not caring too much about my own birth family. Also, always kept a close communication with birth mother, which has become stronger as I age.

Third, Moon-Pluto people's biographies are often marked by what seems like intense, fated circumstances - things that seem that in no way they, themselves, caused or originated. I don't think there is any such thing in life, and with Moon-Pluto the pattern - even in the most extreme cases - seems to be that their psyches need the sense that powerful, overwhelming, transformative things happened TO them, that they are the recipient of these things, reacting and responding to these things - and there is strong subconscious motivation both to set these overwhelming events in motion and (more often than not) to be "at effect" of them.

True that though I outwardly MADE things happen (going to India, returning to USA, etc) I felt pulled or drawn as it was 'meant to be' so acted, doing what I wanted but at the same time, feeling like a puppet of fate.

[Note from Therese: I don't see a Plutonian influence in her life as defined by Fagan and Bradley.]

I wonder about this in her particular case because, with everything else, the Pisces Moon certainly loves its drama and can get caught up in the drama of being a victim - so there may be a payoff in setting up something dramatic where she's the victim. If nothing that big and dramatic has marked the life, then I still stand by the basic character and motivational pattern I've outlined here.

Feel unattached from drama even if outwardly traumatic events happen. Play things down and tend toward denial of their intensity.

Fourth, I'll just repeat my standard paragraph on Moon-Pluto: Bold & forthright, questioning & challenging, maverick & alien; independent, marching to a different drummer,resisting authority. Avoids habitual conformity (rebellious?); resists conventional conditioning and being made to concur with others values and codes

.
Agree that I am unconventional compared to the majority.

Restless, unwilling to be still for long, can uproot or take to the road on little notice.

Not true.

[Note from Therese: Lena could win a world award for a calm, steady disposition. She has never been restless.]

Deeply inquiring into existential mysteries, often igniting remarkable intuitive insights.

Not very intuitive, however much of life spent questioning reality and the afterlife.

SUN - The moderately orbed Moon-Sun square makes me think she was more likely to "take the bull by the horns" in her life than be a passive passenger.

True.

MOON-MARS ...I think, in her chart, this boils down to the usual intense sexual needs running at odds with "the rule book," then probably with Moon-Pluto stirring the "in trouble with the family or the rules" pattern - but this is hard to pin down without knowing more about the original family circumstances. I've mentioned the dynamics, I'm not sure what life-context they had to fit into.

Hahaha, no interest in sex whatsoever, from young age till date!

[Note from Therese: Very true. Lena had no boyfriends her entire life (and didn't want any) until she married in her 40s to an Indian man, mainly because he wanted to marry her. To date most of their married life has been lived apart due to his IT work in different states. Her Mars aspect to the Moon externalizes in extreme efficiency and practicality. Mars exalted in Capricorn.]

MARS-URANUS is a moderate sesquisquare. This probably just adds to the rebelliousness, the tendency to "get into trouble" (in tension with the "follow protocol" Sagittarius). Mars is middleground and well-placed by sign, but probably works out mostly through that rising Moon."

Getting into trouble' only within the boundaries of a completely righteous existence. (Example, helping the elderly Indians when it was against the rules for foreigners to be friends with the natives.)

[Note from Therese: Lena never got into trouble growing up, but did fall apart when John Lennon was shot. At that time a Sidereal astrologer gave her a reading, and I remember that her natal Uranus/Pluto square to Mercury was angular in the solar return. Sometimes natal aspects only externalize for specific events.]

My basic nature is so-and-so, but it doesn't seem I have any opportunity to BE that, to experience that. How can I actualize what I am? What do I have to do to get a shot at being me?" (Or something like that. Playing with the dynamics here. The observable principles are: (1) Her Sun is in Sagittarius. (2) Jupiter has essentially no presence, no outlet, and no avenue of expression in her chart besides that.)

Too confusing and general to comment on. Could probably fit almost any human on the planet?

End of Lena's comments.

Lena has a very high moral code in all respects. That's why I believe she has temple training from the past. She's one of those rare people who go through life without accumulating karma. She has always been completely unattached to those in her life including family, and simply flows with whatever life happens to offer, giving her services where she sees they are needed. I'll add additional comments later.

Anyway, Jim, I feel vindicated. As astrologers we cannot know the soul of a person from a blind natal chart. In general, we cannot give accurate readings. Sadly, however, many astrologers believe they are giving accurate readings. And these astrologers generally have no formal psychological training. A very sad situation in my view.

[Jim Eshelman]

Without going point by point right now, but responding primarily to the last paragraph:

I'm not big on "blind reading" either, Therese, but I was willing to play along. To me, astrology is a tool for penetrating self-knowledge especially in a counseling / interactive sense. Several of my remarks involved needing to know life context. The responses had a singularly important fact that wasn't there: The time spent in India. This substantially alters context and also alters the horoscope.

Where in India did she primarily live? There are some very significant angularities for her chart in India, including Jupiter on MC right down the middle of the country and various Mercury-Uranus-Pluto combinations along the west. Mumbai, for example, has Pluto 0°08' from Ascendant, Uranus 0°18' from Ascendant, and Uranus-Pluto in 0°10' mundane conjunction, in addition to Mercury 1° from IC square them, and Jupiter and Saturn more widely foreground. Delhi, in contrast, has Jupiter 1° from MC.

[Jim Eshelman]

I think it took a lot of courage to attempt this exercise, Jim. I would never do it myself. But I really did want to see if more or less standard interpretations would fit an unusual person. Lena lived in various ashrams while in India. Since Westerners were only allowed limited stays in ashrams, she had to move several times. She didn't live in any major cities. I will have to look at an Indian map, but the ashrams were more to the south, and one was southwest, I think. I can get the exact locations if you want them. I think they were all near small towns that might come up in astrology programs.

More later. Have school events to attend this afternoon.

Therese

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim Eshelman wrote:

To me, astrology is a tool for penetrating self-knowledge especially in a counseling / interactive sense.

Well and good, but why do astrologers think they're qualified to work with clients in a counseling capacity when they're not trained to do so? I'm trained to the max, but I'd never assume that any astrological configuration meant anything in particular without a few sessions with a client. Counseling isn't about telling people how to balance out problems. It's about learning to ask the right questions so the client comes to his or her own realizations.

In all my years as an astrologer, I can't remember when anyone who had seen an astrologer talked about what a great experience it was. But I've heard a lot about awful readings and "the astrologer didn't understand me." Even recently I've had emails from people asking if I could recommend an astrologer. As I don't take counseling appointments any more due to the time and emotional energy involved, I always have to say no, I don't know anyone I would recommend. I don't know anyone who is a trained counselor, but I know many astrologers who believe they're qualified for psychological counseling. This belief has its source in the tropical community, and for me it's just scary. Good intentions don't naturally produce skill as a counselor.

Suggesting what solar return configurations might mean is one thing. Mundane astrology is O.K. as it doesn't involve people's sensitivity. Timing questions are O.K. "When might I find a better job?" But trying to read a natal chart psychologically with assumed meanings and lack of psychic insight? No Way. As I see it, this is the great sin of astrology today, and for that reason I'm glad that astrology still falls into the realm of entertainment in the minds of many. Most professions have qualifications and safeguards set in place before one can practice. But astrology has none whatsoever for counseling. (This is the topic I'm passionate about.)

[Jim Eshelman]

(The thread then digressed in various directions; but, in the middle of one post, Therese gave further statements by Lena about herself. I quote these below.)

Lena admits to the fact that emotions don't really play a part in her life. She wrote to me a few days ago:

I don't think much of relationships, they flow off me like water. I am not attached. I don't get lonely or crave close and deep human connection. I feel no need whatsoever to have strong friendships or someone like me to share things with or to feel a kinship. Casual interactions at work is enough. Being me is enough for me and I don't want or need any twin to feel a part of something. I don't mind a bit being separated physically from [my husband]. I don't care a bit about intimacy or cuddling.

How do I function? Well I think about what needs to be done and I do it, to make the world around me the most ordered, smooth-running and harmonious as possible. Order and righteousness are what pull me, and I don't really function on a deeper level, at least not usually consciously. I emphasize the practical, orderly and sensible in life.

I love being me, satisfied with the basic, and comfy in conformity; it seems to me that 'fun' and indulgence' only lead to more miserable suffering!

Recently in applying for a new job Lena said about herself:

I feel local government is the best fit for me because not only do I gravitate towards stability, regulated procedures and public service, but I have seen time and time again I can use my talents of organization and streamlining processes for maximum benefit both within the departments and to give the public a good impression of government competence. At the same time, I like to communicate with the group I'm working with because individuals often have great ideas that are not expressed.

I've always been organized and goal-orientated, with a high sense of integrity and values. Within whatever structure I'm placed, I enjoy making it the best it can be. I challenge myself and I actually enjoy volunteering for things that will make life easier for those around me.

Lena went along with her husband to take an accounting test as he wanted her support. Her husband failed, but she placed in the top contenders with no training whatsoever. She was hired by her local county, and very quickly became the top person in the division as she works extremely fast and efficiently.

In her personal finances Lena keeps track of every penny on a spreadsheet, a chore that would drive most of us crazy. I attribute her phenomenal accounting skill to navamsa Mercury in the same degree as natal Saturn in Aquarius. It's possible that the Pluto/Uranus square to Mercury also relates to this skill. I don't know as I've never looked at charts for those with skill with numbers. But we know that Jim is a skilled technical astrologer, and he has exalted Saturn with Mercury in its own triplicity. (Mercury being the ascendant lord.)

I'm somewhat puzzled why Jim selected the Uranus/Pluto to Mercury aspect as those planets are not in the foreground and have no close relationship either to the ascendant or ascendant lord. No doubt, Jim, you were looking at the closeness of the aspect, but that same aspect would apply to everyone born that day.

[...]

Everything in a birth chart isn't psychological. Sometimes planetary configurations relate only to events at certain times in the life. The trick for astrologers is how to separate the two.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim Eshelman wrote:

To me, astrology is a tool for penetrating self-knowledge especially in a counseling / interactive sense.

Well and good, but why do astrologers think they're qualified to work with clients in a counseling capacity when they're not trained to do so?

I've always held that they should be. As far as the profession has gotten in this (since one can't require anyone to do this or that to call themselves an astrologer) is probably what we did in ISAR - started before my presidency, and continued during it - of having counseling examination a significant part of the certification process. I've felt for over 40 years that part of the formal training of astrologers should be counselor training if not formal psychology credentials.

In all my years as an astrologer, I can't remember when anyone who had seen an astrologer talked about what a great experience it was.

In contrast, I've heard that many times. (But I agree that there are many other times where that is definitely not what one hears. This is the argument for professional standards.)

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim Eshelman wrote:

As far as the profession has gotten in this (since one can't require anyone to do this or that to call themselves an astrologer) is probably what we did in ISAR - started before my presidency, and continued during it - of having counseling examination a significant part of the certification process. I've felt for over 40 years that part of the formal training of astrologers should be counselor training if not formal psychology credentials.

The problem with what ISAR is doing is that it's not nearly enough. A few classes or seminars on counseling won't do it, although at least it introduces the topic to astrologers. Academic counseling credentials aren't even offered at the undergraduate level, as a general undergrad education is a a requirement for advanced counseling training. That takes a minimum of two or three years of graduate study and training.

Aside from the many academic classes on psychology and theory, student sessions with clients are recorded, and then you sit in a room with the professor and other students, and your sessions are critiqued. I was allowed to use astrology because my counseling supervisor said the way I used it made my clients feel comfortable. This was at San Francisco State U. Many locales in the country would probably prohibit the use of astrology in an academic setting.

[Jim Eshelman]

The chart screams "explorer."

No, not an explorer, but did live far from birthplace for 20 years in India.
and:
I respect old fashioned values and tradition; at the same time, wouldn't want to be tied down within the constraints of traditional female roles of the past.
and:
Getting into trouble' only within the boundaries of a completely righteous existence. (Example, helping the elderly Indians when it was against the rules for foreigners to be friends with the natives.)
and:
Not very intuitive, however much of life spent questioning reality and the afterlife.

However, Jim, your reading of Lena's chart using Sidereal principles lacked quite a bit in accuracy.

Therese, would you point out the indications in Lena's chart you see that explain this pattern in her life, and how you would describe it, since you and Lena don't like the word "explorer."

[Jim Eshelman]

JSAD wrote:

Therese, would you point out the indications in Lena's chart you see that explain this pattern in her life, and how you would describe it, since you and Lena don't like the word "explorer."

Do you mean her 20 year stay in India? First the dictionary definition of explore:

To traverse or range over (a region, area, etc.) for the purpose of discovery:
to explore the island.
(There is also mental exploration, widely reading to obtain knowledge. Today we can 'travel' via movies and TV travel documentaries.)

Lena went to India for the purpose many Americans have gone to India: Thinking that with the right guru she would quickly obtain liberation and freedom from earth lives. She went to India with a specific destination in mind, unfortunately the ashram of the bogus guru, Sathya Sai Baba in Puttaparthi, southern India. She traveled directly to that location and stayed as long as she was allowed.

Lena has no interest in either physical or mental exploration as such. She owns no books (or very few), and has no interest in broadening her horizons through travel. Now I'm the explorer in the mental sense. I own a huge library, and love travel shows with beautiful scenery and city and town life that tell me about the lives of others in foreign countries. I've spent a summer traveling in Europe, lived in Europe for two years (taking side trips to other countries), and have been to India three times.

I now only travel via TV travel programs which I love. I love new knowledge, and every month shows new books arriving on my doorstep via Amazon. Would an astrologer see that in my chart? I don't know. I can see it clearly with Hellenistic-Indian principles, but don't want to further distract this forum with divergent views.

[Jim Eshelman]

Do you mean her 20 year stay in India? First the dictionary definition of explore:

No, I meant what I said.

I quoted Lena's own words to point up the pattern, and then asked..

Therese, would you point out the indications in Lena's chart you see that explain this pattern in her life, and how you would describe it, since you and Lena don't like the word "explorer."

[Jim Eshelman]

Perhaps this is on the verge of "beating the dead horse", and is surely going further off-topic, but I think it's of importance to notice:

First, in a counseling session, I would spend a lot of time focusing on what superficially seems a conflict between the Sagittarius Sun and the Moon-Pluto.

I think this line alone nailed the essence of what both Therese and Lena said (even emphasized) about Lena. The Sagittarius Sun seeks for improvement, looking and going through life with the "higher and higher" motive inside/in accordance to one's own frame of values; the Moon-Pluto instinctive & automatic reaction to experience is marked with in some way pronounced emotional detachment:

...she has the same ability to focus 100 percent on what she's doing with no interference from emotional issues which she lacks anyway. I've never known a person with such focus and detachment.

Feel unattached from drama even if outwardly traumatic events happen. Play things down and tend toward denial of their intensity.

Lena has a very high moral code in all respects. That's why I believe she has temple training from the past. She's one of those rare people who go through life without accumulating karma. She has always been completely unattached to those in her life including family, and simply flows with whatever life happens to offer, giving her services where she sees they are needed.

Lena lived in various ashrams while in India. Since Westerners were only allowed limited stays in ashrams, she had to move several times.

I don't think much of relationships, they flow off me like water. I am not attached. I don't get lonely or crave close and deep human connection. I feel no need whatsoever to have strong friendships or someone like me to share things with or to feel a kinship. Casual interactions at work is enough. Being me is enough for me and I don't want or need any twin to feel a part of something. I don't mind a bit being separated physically from [my husband]. I don't care a bit about intimacy or cuddling.

How do I function? Well I think about what needs to be done and I do it, to make the world around me the most ordered, smooth-running and harmonious as possible. Order and righteousness are what pull me, and I don't really function on a deeper level, at least not usually consciously. I emphasize the practical, orderly and sensible in life.

I love being me, satisfied with the basic, and comfy in conformity; it seems to me that 'fun' and indulgence' only lead to more miserable suffering!

I've always been organized and goal-orientated, with a high sense of integrity and values. Within whatever structure I'm placed, I enjoy making it the best it can be. I challenge myself and I actually enjoy volunteering for things that will make life easier for those around me.

The "conflict" (Lena's inner key "churning pot/point") is between the Sag Sun's need for being a part of society (and to play its own, however perceived, particular social role - in a given tribe/community - as best as possible) and the Moon-Pluto-combo's tendency to feel (and react, automatically act as) isolated/alien/non-attached/strange. How she "solves" this in her existence is the unknown and interesting thing, no astrologer can see it in advance from the horoscope - it's her own personal & unique art of living, which Jim's interpretation honestly did not aim or claim for a moment to "divine" in its particular contents without ever communicating with Lena.

[Jim Eshelman]

As I review this old thread with an eye to including it perhaps in the Natal Synthesis chapter of The Big Book [note later: I decided not to do that], I note Needs Hierarchy for the "astro twins" is indeed interesting.

LENA
97 - Pluto
91 - Moon
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90 - Venus Jupiter Neptune
==========================
83 - Uranus
82 - Sun
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28 - Saturn
26 - Mars
23 - Mercury

HEIDI
100 - Venus
97 - Mars
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95 - Pluto
94 - Mercury
90 - Jupiter Neptune
78 - Moon Sun
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60 - Saturn
54 - Uranus

Notice that they are most different in the strength of their Mars needs.