Not a dollface

[abby]

In every single case I’ve seen, both in celebrities and people I know personally, girls with angular venus have a specific type of appearance - they all look strikingly similar (and strikingly beautiful). They all have faces like a china doll - some representative examples are Lana Del Rey, Cameron Diaz, Angelina Jolie, Billie Eilish, Selena Gomez. If you compare pictures of these women or other foreground venus women, the similarity is obvious. This certain appearance is consistent no matter which angle venus is on, and even when the planet is afflicted.
However, despite having venus angular on my descendant (and unafflicted and exalted), I look completely different from these girls. I admit that I am not always the best objective judge of my own appearance, but others have agreed with me on this, I don’t have that doll-faced look. I am not saying I am ugly or anything, I just seem to have been left out of this otherwise completely consistent trend, and it really confuses me. For a long time, I chalked it up to venus-pluto, or to the other malefic elements in my chart, particularly the neptune, but other angular venus girls with venus-pluto as well as similarly bad or worse afflictions as mine in their chart still have this china doll appearance. The only thing I can find that’s different about my venus or my chart in general is that my venus is retrograde natally.
If retrogradation has no effect, What do you think could be causing me to look different from other foreground venus women?

[James Condor]

Ha. Well, you aren’t the exception. Apparently not all angular Venus’ have a doll face, since you don’t. I bet millions of others don’t either. Celebrities are usually, but of course, not always, pretty attractive. Plus, what you consider a “doll face” I might consider something else. Angular Venus doesn’t equal universal objective beauty. It’s more about love, harmony, justice, kind, not aggressive. Maybe know as sensual and vain, but that doesn’t translate into universal beauty.
Age is a major factor to do with the “doll face”. Of course, some look good for their age.
Do you have relativity squinty eyes? More than any other sign Aquarius usually, but not always, has squinty eyes. Libra sometimes too has this. It’s not an absolute thing though

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I looked up your examples and I don't see it. Those women don't seem to have much in common besides makeup style. Try a thick brow pencil and dark lipstick.

We've looked for years, starting with "ascendant sign" and sun sign and so on. There's just not much there to start with, and what there is seems to vary according to the observer.

[Veronica]

Manufactured doll heads are PERFECTLY SYMMETRICAL. Symmetry is balanced energies, it is what we as humans have been conditioned over billions of years to equate with perfection, beauty, harmony and strength.

It is a trick of some trades to look at human faces, first seeing only the right half (ie covering up the left half of a photo who a piece of paper) and then looking at the opposite side and noting the slight discrepancies to asses the overall character of a person.

Human adult faces are not usually perfectly symmetrical.
Hence BABY face. Its an ideal.

[Veronica]

I am an Aquarius and I have very big blue eyes. I dont see any correlation between Aquarius and squinty eyes. What is the gist of that?

[SteveS]

My Nephew and his wife in their social circles are called the perfect Barbie Doll couple. He was born with mundo Venus rising 2,26 orb. But, I would also expect genetics of their parents to play some role in the facial appearances.

Nephew mundo Natal:
https://imgur.com/wlf0KXx

[Jim Eshelman]

Abby, first, this is an excellent observation; second, nothing concerning personality is so uniform or consistent.

The "good observation" part. Sidereal pioneer Gary Duncan had a knack for spotting people with Venus exactly on an angle. To show that it was a real effect, he walked around one American Federations of Astrologers convention (a week-long convention in those days, usually with a couple of thousand people) identifying, at a glance, who he thought fit the profile and asking the person for his or her birth data. He then returned to Southern California by way of Tucson so he could spend a few days with Donald Bradley and they calculated the charts and tabulated the results. Venus was indeed on an angle a statistically improbable number of times, i.e., it was a real effect.

As an aside: This small study was valuable for another reason. They found that Venus on Eastpoint produced even more statistically significant results than Venus on Ascendant. This was the first formal, non-anecdotal evidence that the Eastpoint-Westpoint axis is astrologically significant.

I can see this effect, too - not as clearly as Gary. I wouldn't have used "dollface" to describe it, but I can see why you might have picked that word. The look is distinctly "pretty," not "beautiful." It is striking almost at a glance, and might be described as "too pretty." Ordinary people on the street with this often give the kind of "perfect" (even when rugged, even when unkempt) look that perhaps suggests they were made up for a TV role (and, of course, make-up can "touch it up" a bit more perfectly, but isn't needed). Even in those who are otherwise excessively rugged or where aging has been hard on appearance, you can still see - about the eyes, in particular - something that shows the original look. (This is probably a terribly bad description. I don't know simple language for getting someone else to see this sort of thing in their mental eye if they don't already have the idea. Walking past 20 people with the look will give it to you at once.)

The look is like some classic kinds of painted doll faces. BTW, I probably would have (wrongly) guessed you looked like this because I find it even more pronounced with Libr Moons!


However, there are limits to this.

When I started out in astrology, almost every book had physical descriptions of sign types and other ways of describing physical appearance. I just couldn't see it most of the time. Oh, there is the distinctive Scorpio nose that looks a little like an eagle's beak, and a few other things like that, but mostly it's just not there. I've never included anything on appearance in anything I've written on a horoscope. My sardonic view is that you don't need to tell someone's appearance from a horoscope if they're sitting in front of you anyway . (And the idea of "rectifying an unknown birth time by guessing the Ascendant from appearance" does work, but not for ten or eleven people out of twelve.)

So many things affect appearance, of which genetics is perhaps the largest. It didn't help that every book on the subject (and there were dozens!) focused just on white people of European descent. (Well, if there were something to it, maybe that would have helped by at least showing a consistent standard of one type; but it didn't.)

What is much easier to pick up are appearance matters affected by behavior. All other things being equal, women with Venus closely angular are more likely to wear make-up and "doll up" a bit. Appearance matters more to men and women with Venus angular - Venus' glyph resembles a hand-mirror, and what they see in the mirror matters to Venus people. This affects both subtle and obvious details of how such people end up presenting themselves.

[Jim Eshelman]

BTW, the minute you clicked "Submit" on your first post above, your Mars-Pluto was crossing Midheaven in Memphis. Perhaps more interesting, though, transiting Moon was 0°03' from exact conjunction with your natal Saturn. Were you feeling particularly down on yourself?

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

There's a facial type called a "doll face" or "baby doll face" consisting of large eyes, and a triangular face shape (pinched lower jaw) with a smallish mouth, (usually described as rosebud or pouty.) Think Betty Boop. It's usually expected the voice is high pitched (again think Betty Boop)

But I don't know if that's the kind of face you're describing Abby. I didn't seen it in any of your examples except Gomez.

[Jim Eshelman]

Just as an experiment, here are the pictures I find of those women who most have the look I was describing (though not necessarily a pure or sharp version of it). I've had to dig through pictures to find anything that "snaps" the look (or, I should say, the effect), not all pictures have it. I don't think Cameron Diaz is a good example of it at all, the eyes aren't right. Billie Ellish's look has always run completely contrary to the usual Venus angular presentation, so that one was a real struggle to find a picture stripped of that outer styling (I'm not happy with that result; I picked one for the eyes).Gomez is more round-faced than the usual look (which is more chiseled but in an airbrushed way), so getting the right face angle was a challenge.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAD
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAF
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAD
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAD
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAD

[abby]

Wow, these replies really surprised me. I really thought the effect was unmissable. I made a document with some pictures I feel represent this well; I included the examples I previously listed, plus some other celebrity examples and non-celebrity examples, and some men I feel like have this “look”, too.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ej ... JMQCIRPcVU

I feel like they all have faces that are beautiful and pleasant, angelic even, and I feel that they all have a distinct beauty.

Ordinary people on the street with this often give the kind of "perfect" (even when rugged, even when unkempt) look that perhaps suggests they were made up for a TV role (and, of course, make-up can "touch it up" a bit more perfectly, but isn't needed). Even in those who are otherwise excessively rugged or where aging has been hard on appearance, you can still see - about the eyes, in particular - something that shows the original look. (This is probably a terribly bad description. I don't know simple language for getting someone else to see this sort of thing in their mental eye if they don't already have the idea. Walking past 20 people with the look will give it to you at once.) The look is like some classic kinds of painted doll faces.

This is actually a really great way to describe it I think, their prettiness seems unreal, like their faces are too perfect to look that way naturally, and yet, they do.

BTW, I probably would have (wrongly) guessed you looked like this because I find it even more pronounced with Libr Moons!

I wish...

I understand the astrological effects on appearance aren’t invariable. This particular effect just seemed so consistent in my experience, that it made me wonder what could be setting me apart from the bunch astrologically, especially with a libra moon and an unafflicted venus.

[abby]

BTW, the minute you clicked "Submit" on your first post above, your Mars-Pluto was crossing Midheaven in Memphis. Perhaps more interesting, though, transiting Moon was 0°03' from exact conjunction with your natal Saturn. Were you feeling particularly down on yourself?

Actually, last night was an exceptionally good night with some really nice feelings and I was feeling better than usual when I clicked submit on this, I’ve been thinking about making this post for a while and felt more purely curious about it than self-conscious when I posted. This is not the norm though, I’ve struggled to come to terms with this discrepancy in the way I look quite a bit.
However it is Interesting about Mars-Pluto and I’m glad you pointed that out to me, just considering some things that happened to me earlier today (an abrupt, painful separation).

[abby]

Do you have relativity squinty eyes? More than any other sign Aquarius usually, but not always, has squinty eyes. Libra sometimes too has this. It’s not an absolute thing though

I’ve always considered my eyes smaller than I’d like them to be, but I wouldn’t say squinty

[blossomintobeing]

Interesting discussion. I have Venus loosely conjunct my Ascendant, and in the 12th house if you do a typical chart (which may not count to this discussion); and in the first house (angular) if you do it Vedic-style.

Throughout my life, I've gotten a lot of attention for my looks. But more than that, looks have always been a fixation and it's annoying to me. I'd prefer to just let it go and stop focusing on them.

For a long time, I had men pursuing me for the wrong reasons. Now that I'm out of Saturn's shadow at 36, I am embracing myself in other ways... but there's an intense drive to be "beautiful," by my own standards, which now requires me to exercise frequently and groom meticulously... to the point where I've been told I go "over the top."

This may relate to my moon conjunct the midheaven in the 10th house in Taurus, that Venus rules... meaning my appearance feels like something that affects my worldly success, so I do intend to maintain it (with North Node in the 10th, I'm also intensely passionate about maintaining worldly success). Which means that it's likely my looks will remain fairly decent throughout my life.

Seems to me that what Jim said about us grooming more may be true.

It may also help that my Venus doesn't make many hard aspects to other planets, and is placed in Leo 10 degrees from my Sun. I have a lot of hair, and that may be a Leo trait.

[Jim Eshelman]

Leo's are indeed known for their "fabulous mane."

This came up in conversation yesterday. My Leo Moon wife Marion grew up in Staten Island, hitting adulthood as the '80s emerged, and we often observe and remark about the '80s Staten Island hair in movies, etc. But yesterday she had a meeting with a new business contact who kept referring to herself as a Virgo. Odds are, of course, that the woman has her Sun in the constellation Leo and, while trading observations on her, Marion threw in, "Well, she does have a great head of hair."

Yes, Leo's - through genes or grooming or both - do often have a magnificent mane.

[blossomintobeing]

Leo's are indeed known for their "fabulous mane."

This came up in conversation yesterday. My Leo Moon wife Marion grew up in Staten Island, hitting adulthood as the '80s emerged, and we often observe and remark about the '80s Staten Island hair in movies, etc. But yesterday she had a meeting with a new business contact who kept referring to herself as a Virgo. Odds are, of course, that the woman has her Sun in the constellation Leo and, while trading observations on her, Marion threw in, "Well, she does have a great head of hair."

Yes, Leo's - through genes or grooming or both - do often have a magnificent mane.

I'll start looking out for this more often. I know so many Tropical-Virgos who are fairly demure and hard-working, actually. (But I know the Leo cutoff is mid-early September, so not all Virgos will be Leos in the sidereal system.) I DO have a great Virgo friend I can think of, who often wears her hair in a bun, but when she lets it down it's like a hot librarian moment where she turns into a totally different person. Funny.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

The Sun reached 0 Virgo on September 18th 2020. Next year and the year after, it'll be the 17th. 2023 it'll be the 18th.

My birthday is the same as yours, also at sunrise, but I have always had fine thin hair.

[blossomintobeing]

The Sun reached 0 Virgo on September 18th 2020. Next year and the year after, it'll be the 17th. 2023 it'll be the 18th.

My birthday is the same as yours, also at sunrise, but I have always had fine thin hair.

You have the same birth date and time that I do???

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

August 31 @ 6:18 AM, but 1950 and upstate NY. If you look at my user name and my avatar, both describe elements of my chart. Your Sun is closer to the angles than mine, as is your Jupiter.

[blossomintobeing]

August 31 @ 6:18 AM, but 1950 and upstate NY. If you look at my user name and my avatar, both describe elements of my chart. Your Sun is closer to the angles than mine, as is your Jupiter.

How amazing! So your Jupiter is on the Descendant, but you're Leo through and through. And we have the EXACT same birthday and time!

I find that so cool.

[DavidJ]

What do you think could be causing me to look different from other foreground venus women?

I have a friend who knows nothing about astrology, but he's extremely social and knows lots and lots of people. I've taught him how to recognize certain sign characteristics mainly by pointing out some people who look similar. Now when he sees that facial type in someone new and he' confident about it, he'll guess their Sun sign to a successful hit rate of like 60%, which is astounding when it should be more like 8% if due to chance. I've even checked out later the ones he's got wrong when I've been able to, and more often than not the Moon is in that sign or at worst the Sun or Moon are in signs of the same element.

But he can only do this when he sees these certain face types and is confident about it, which is rare. He can't guess a randomly selected person's Sun sign, not even close.

So in the doll-face case you've brought up, these women could be displaying an archetypal face type which is correlated with an angular Venus, but that doesn't mean everyone will share it if they have angular Venus.

An analogy I like to make is: "Everyone wearing a Nirvana t-shirt is a rock fan. But not every rock fan is wearing a Nirvana t-shirt."

Likewise, this is probably something like "Most women with that doll-face have angular Venus, but not everyone will angular Venus has that doll-face."

[Jim Eshelman]

An analogy I like to make is: "Everyone wearing a Nirvana t-shirt is a rock fan. But not every rock fan is wearing a Nirvana t-shirt."

[Danica]

An analogy I like to make is: "Everyone wearing a Nirvana t-shirt is a rock fan. But not every rock fan is wearing a Nirvana t-shirt."

<raises hand> An angular Venus here, and not a dollface!
And I'd surely wear that Nirvana shirt, with joy - not based on any special allegiance to rock as such (I feel rather undefined in this regard), simply because I adored K. Cobain as a teen